Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites

2010-09-01 Thread Naison Jones 
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
On Thu, Sep 2, 2010 at 12:39 AM, Stephen Gray  wrote:

>  The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>
>
>
> I've only seen limited negativity.
>

It depends how you define negativity.
In light of the fact that it creates division amongst a religion whose soul
purpose is to create a unified religious spirit through mankind, it is
extremely damaging and negative.


You must understand the covenant is inseperable with the faith. To defy the
covenant is to not be a Bahai- as a Bahai must wholly adhere to all the
principles how much more the covenant itself.
That is why Brent said you have drunk deep poison. Reading such material is
analogous to testing your faith, it is not recomended.
 They will shake and shake the tree with their violent attacks and the
leaves that are not wholly firmly attached will fall off. I recomend you
take Brents advice. I was just giving my own rant about CB and am new
here, but him and other Bahais here who are reaching out to you really know
what they are saying when they emphasize its more important than you
realise. Why do you think Abdul'Baha spends so much of that tablet talking
about the covenant? he knows how damaging these attacks are when people are
not strong, and how more will come in the future.

cheers.

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Amen and Amin

2010-09-01 Thread Sen & Sonja 
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
On 1 Sep 2010 at 12:21, Stephen Gray wrote:

> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/ABL/abl-2.html
> 
> http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/ABL/abl-4.html
> 
> These are the two only times a Baha'i prayer includes Amen in the
> text.

Neither is an authenticated text, although it is not impossible that 
Abdu'l-Baha might have adopted that usage.. It is also possible that 
the note-taker has added it! 

In either case, it would not establish a "rule" - at most (if one 
regards these as authentic) it serves as an example of adapting 
presentation to the audience and setting

Sen


--
-- 
Sen McGlinn   http://senmcglinn.wordpress.com 

The influence of individual souls is and always will be beloved.  For 
the influence 
of each soul is its fruit, and a soul without influence is considered 
a tree without 
fruit in the most great realm.  Speak forth for the sake of God, and 
spread the 
cause for his sake.  Do not look at whether others accept or deny, 
but rather at 
the service you are commanded to perform by God. 

Baha'u'llah -- Tablet of the Son -- http://www-
personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/2001/bhson.htm



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Re: Amen and Amin

2010-09-01 Thread Susan Maneck 
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> These are the two only times a Baha'i prayer includes Amen in the text.

One wonders if it was even in the original talk or whether the
translator added to avoid confusion.

>
> So, with or without?
>

It is not our custom to add 'amen' to the end of prayers. More often
we may end it with the author's name or initials.

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Amen and Amin

2010-09-01 Thread Stephen Gray 
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/ABL/abl-2.html

http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/ABL/abl-4.html

These are the two only times a Baha'i prayer includes Amen in the text.

According to Hadith, Muhammad instructed Muslims to recite Amin even though it 
wasn't to be included textually as it was implied.

So, with or without?


  
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Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites

2010-09-01 Thread Susan Maneck 
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> Are there any CB statistics?

Well sort of, but their accuracy is in question. We know during the
recent court case you referred to the OBF claimed to have only about
thirty members in the US. Brent will tell you that the hotel room in
which they hold their annual convention only holds that many. Unlike
our own convention which is mostly attended only by delegates, all
members of the OBF try to attend because it is there only chance to
see one another face to face. At one time the Jensenites claimed to
have 5000 members. Unlike the other Remeyites they did have actual
communities mostly located in four places in the United States. This
is the only group which had any measurable success recruiting people
who had never been Baha'is to begin with. A lot left after his failed
prophecy of 1980. Others left after Jensen's death when the movement
fragmented into several different parts. I doubt if there fifty left
between those various fragments. The Soghomonian Remeyites are even
smaller having no organization whatsoever. As near as I can tell this
5 Elder group you were referring to is a one man show. The Tarbiyat
group has been reduced to family members.

I doubt very much if there are more than a thousand Covenant breakers
and their followers  altogether.
>
> Do you recognize different degrees of CB? (Divisions have occured amongst
> the followers of the Bab, Baha'u'llah, Abdu'l-Baha, Shoghi Effendi, etc. Any
> group that sees itself on the opposite side of a split can be considered a
> CB of that degree.)

No, there are not different degrees. No one can be considered a
Covenant breaker unless they have been named as such by the Universal
House of Justice. We usually avoid the followers of Covenant breakers
as well but they may not necessarily fall into that category,
especially if they were not actually Baha'is to begin with.
>
> Neal Chase sent open epistles to America, United Kingdom, France, Russia,
> Vaticun City, and the United Nations including their leaders puporting
> doomsday unless they converted.

Yes, the BUPC, a faction of which is headed by Neal Chase is the only
Covenant breaking group that has successfully attracted people outside
the Baha'i community. I would argue this is partly because they
succeeded in developing what really could be described as a separate
cult.

> Also, there are Youtube channels for Orthodox and Heart Baha'is.

The Soghomonians don't call themselves "Heart Baha'is." There is a
yahoo group run by Brent Reed which has a name similar to that. Brent
Reed was originally a mainstream Baha'is, then he became a follower of
Joel Marangella, then Jaques Soghomonian. He seems to be looking for a
Baha'i group that accepts homosexuality, but hasn't had much success.

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Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites

2010-09-01 Thread Susan Maneck 
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> Given all the time "they" spent on criticizing Obama for the church he
> went to for 30 years you would think people would know better.

And generally it is the same people. They want to have it both ways.

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Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites

2010-09-01 Thread Susan Maneck 
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> Actually the reasons they give are:

Yes, but I was referring to the fact that this discussion has just
recently re-emerged. It was Fox News that first accused him of being a
Muslim during the election.
>
> His father was a Muslim

Not true. His father was a Marxist and like most Marxists he was an
atheist. Obama's grandfather had converted to Islam, the family being
originally Christian, but his father rejected religion entirely. Not
that it matters, Obama only met his father once that he can remember.

> His stepfather was a Muslim

A non-practicing Muslim.

> His stepbrothers are Muslim

Probably.

> He grew up in Kenya

False. Obama grew up in Indonesia and Hawaii. He only visited Kenya
once as an adult and it was after his father died.

> His first names is Barack (Arabic for Baruch, a Jewish prophet or atleast
> the scribe of Jeremiah)

Barak means charisma or blessing in Arabic.

> His middle name is Hussein (Imam Hussein)

Hussein is the diminutive for handsome. I'd say he was well-named. ;-}

> He bowed to the King of Saudi Arabia

But did he do this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRhDzpJV2TM&feature=fvw

> That last one makes the least sense, because since he bowed to the Emperor
> and Empress of Japan, does that make him a Shintoist?

LOL. I remember when President Ford bowed to the Emperor of Japan,
everyone made fun of him because his white socks showed.

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Re: President Obama . . . :-)

2010-09-01 Thread Stephen Gray 
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
He does travel alot, so he's not there alot of time too.





From: Ahang Rabbani 
To: Baha'i Studies 
Sent: Wed, September 1, 2010 12:24:26 PM
Subject: Re: President Obama . . . :-)


The Baha'i Studies Listserv
All federal buildings are subject to smoking laws.  WH is no exception and 
is smoke-free.

Also, no campaigning can take place from federal buildings, so the 
President has 
to go to the residence to make donation calls and the like.


 
On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 1:19 PM, Susan Maneck  wrote:

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>> Just curious - does anyone know whether the White House is non-smoking?
>
>I suppose that is up to the President, but he promised his wife when
>she allowed him to run that he would stop smoking.
>
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Re: President Obama . . . :-)

2010-09-01 Thread Ahang Rabbani 
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
All federal buildings are subject to smoking laws.  WH is no exception and
is smoke-free.

Also, no campaigning can take place from federal buildings, so the
President has to go to the residence to make donation calls and the like.



On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 1:19 PM, Susan Maneck  wrote:

> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> > Just curious - does anyone know whether the White House is non-smoking?
>
> I suppose that is up to the President, but he promised his wife when
> she allowed him to run that he would stop smoking.
>
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http://ahang.rabbani.googlepages.com/

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Re: President Obama . . . :-)

2010-09-01 Thread Susan Maneck 
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> Just curious - does anyone know whether the White House is non-smoking?

I suppose that is up to the President, but he promised his wife when
she allowed him to run that he would stop smoking.

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Re: President Obama . . . :-)

2010-09-01 Thread Mike Moum 

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
As an ex-smoker, let me tell you that sneaking an occasional cigarette 
without being caught is not nearly as easy as it sounds. For one thing, 
the stink on one's clothes is almost impossible to avoid or disguise, 
even if you're smoking outside.


Just curious - does anyone know whether the White House is non-smoking?

Mike

Sand1844 wrote:

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
It tickles me and amuses me also.  It depicts his human frailities and 
foibles.  I find it rather fetching. Thanks, Susan


As for Obama's smoking I'm rather amused by the image of him sneaking
an occasional cigarette on some porch of the White House hoping
neither his wife or a reporter catches him. 
warmest, Susan


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Des Moines, Iowa
Visit the Baha'i World at www.bahai.org
Visit the US Baha'i website at www.us.bahai.org


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Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites

2010-09-01 Thread Stephen Gray 
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Are there any CB statistics?

Do you recognize different degrees of CB? (Divisions have occured amongst the 
followers of the Bab, Baha'u'llah, Abdu'l-Baha, Shoghi Effendi, etc. Any group 
that sees itself on the opposite side of a split can be considered a CB of that 
degree.)

"On teh other hand Bahais who are known as convenant breakers follow the 
pattern 
of putting up many many websites on the net with their semi-Bahai propaganda. 

They do rarely seem to teach the faith in themselves and fail to bring people 
into the faith. Look at the Bahais who are actively engaged in teh community 
and 
doing Ruhi and Childrens classes how they spend their time and compare them to 
these people who just spend their time attacking. It is pretty clear that they 
have no substance of themselves."

Neal Chase sent open epistles to America, United Kingdom, France, Russia, 
Vaticun City, and the United Nations including their leaders puporting doomsday 
unless they converted. BUPC for example tends to emphasize mostly their 
teaching 
of an uncoming Nuclear Apocalypse. He claims that any location within a 100 
mile 
radius of a city with a population of 100,00 or more is a gooing to be nuked 
along with all political and military sites.

Also, there are Youtube channels for Orthodox and Heart Baha'is. The latter 
consists of Jacques Soghomonian expounding his interpretations of various of 
the 
writings of Baha'u'llah ie Hidden Words, Seven Valleys, etc.

I've only seen limited negativity.




From: Naison Jones 
To: Baha'i Studies 
Sent: Wed, September 1, 2010 2:51:13 AM
Subject: Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites


The Baha'i Studies Listserv

Hi all I am new here so forgive me if my words are not perfect to this thread.
It is interesting to note that covenant-breaker material -as the Bahais call 
it- 
is quite different from the material of different religious sects. 

If you look at Christianity you will see that it is composed of different 
branches and within them the people of that religion will still follow their 
religion and attempt to teach it.
On teh other hand Bahais who are known as convenant breakers follow the pattern 
of putting up many many websites on the net with their semi-Bahai propaganda. 

They do rarely seem to teach the faith in themselves and fail to bring people 
into the faith. Look at the Bahais who are actively engaged in teh community 
and 
doing Ruhi and Childrens classes how they spend their time and compare them to 
these people who just spend their time attacking. It is pretty clear that they 
have no substance of themselves.
And for all their talk about Bahai reform what are they doing? nothing. It is 
just ideals to create disunity clothed in the guise of something seemingly fair 
-yet inwardly foul (as it is).
Its imcumbent on every Bahai to investigate so they can see the right from the 
wrong. So the tests of those who have gone astray wont distract or even give 
them pause for a moment.
Sorry that is not authenticated text im quoting just my understanding from what 
i read.
Steve unfortunately since you are a new Bahai- as I understand- these things 
are 
agitating you, and thats exactly what they want. If you were a well deepened 
Bahai a strong tree with your roots firmly in the ground these websites would 
pass over you like water over rock, or stormy wind uprooting a might tree- it 
cant be done no matter how strong the wind.
Just be aware you are suseptable. It is a dangerous time for you when you will 
be tempted by the dark side (yes allow me that starwars reference). But its 
true. There are many comparisons that can be made to star wards - the old ones 
and the Bahai faith. Sorry im probably saying too much now.

Also if the Bahais seem strong-worded to you you have to be aware that there 
comes a point where you should stop posting these sites. Susan has asked you 
very nicely many times. Why dont you respect her wishes? It is not nice to do 
it 
over and over. Dont be a mischief-maker.
(:

cheers.

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Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites

2010-09-01 Thread Stephen Gray 
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Also, that Beer Summit is the best proof he's not Muslim.





From: Gilberto Simpson 
To: Baha'i Studies 
Sent: Wed, September 1, 2010 10:30:50 AM
Subject: Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Given all the time "they" spent on criticizing Obama for the church he
went to for 30 years you would think people would know better.

On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 10:49 AM, Stephen Gray  wrote:
> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>
> Actually the reasons they give are:
>
> His father was a Muslim
> His stepfather was a Muslim
> His stepbrothers are Muslim
> He grew up in Kenya
> His first names is Barack (Arabic for Baruch, a Jewish prophet or atleast
> the scribe of Jeremiah)
> His middle name is Hussein (Imam Hussein)
> He bowed to the King of Saudi Arabia
>
> That last one makes the least sense, because since he bowed to the Emperor
> and Empress of Japan, does that make him a Shintoist?
>
> 
> From: Susan Maneck 
> To: Baha'i Studies 
> Sent: Tue, August 31, 2010 5:29:05 PM
> Subject: Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites
>
> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>> I think it is concerning that the President has to "ease" the tension by
>> claiming that he's not a Muslim, which implies that there is somehow
>> something bad about being a Muslim.
>
> I agree. It is no accident the latest discussions of whether Obama is
> really a Muslim arose because of his defense of Muslims' right to
> build the community center in Manhattan.
>
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Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites

2010-09-01 Thread Gilberto Simpson 
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Given all the time "they" spent on criticizing Obama for the church he
went to for 30 years you would think people would know better.

On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 10:49 AM, Stephen Gray  wrote:
> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>
> Actually the reasons they give are:
>
> His father was a Muslim
> His stepfather was a Muslim
> His stepbrothers are Muslim
> He grew up in Kenya
> His first names is Barack (Arabic for Baruch, a Jewish prophet or atleast
> the scribe of Jeremiah)
> His middle name is Hussein (Imam Hussein)
> He bowed to the King of Saudi Arabia
>
> That last one makes the least sense, because since he bowed to the Emperor
> and Empress of Japan, does that make him a Shintoist?
>
> 
> From: Susan Maneck 
> To: Baha'i Studies 
> Sent: Tue, August 31, 2010 5:29:05 PM
> Subject: Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites
>
> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>> I think it is concerning that the President has to "ease" the tension by
>> claiming that he's not a Muslim, which implies that there is somehow
>> something bad about being a Muslim.
>
> I agree. It is no accident the latest discussions of whether Obama is
> really a Muslim arose because of his defense of Muslims' right to
> build the community center in Manhattan.
>
> __
> You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:skg_z...@yahoo.com
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>
>
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Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites

2010-09-01 Thread Stephen Gray 
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Actually the reasons they give are:

His father was a Muslim
His stepfather was a Muslim
His stepbrothers are Muslim
He grew up in Kenya
His first names is Barack (Arabic for Baruch, a Jewish prophet or atleast the 
scribe of Jeremiah)
His middle name is Hussein (Imam Hussein)
He bowed to the King of Saudi Arabia

That last one makes the least sense, because since he bowed to the Emperor and 
Empress of Japan, does that make him a Shintoist?





From: Susan Maneck 
To: Baha'i Studies 
Sent: Tue, August 31, 2010 5:29:05 PM
Subject: Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> I think it is concerning that the President has to "ease" the tension by
> claiming that he's not a Muslim, which implies that there is somehow
> something bad about being a Muslim.

I agree. It is no accident the latest discussions of whether Obama is
really a Muslim arose because of his defense of Muslims' right to
build the community center in Manhattan.

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President Obama . . . :-)

2010-09-01 Thread Sand1844 
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
It tickles me and amuses me also.  It depicts his human frailities and 
foibles.  
I find it rather fetching. Thanks, Susan

As for Obama's smoking I'm rather amused by the image of him sneaking
an occasional cigarette on some porch of the White House hoping
neither his wife or a reporter catches him.  
warmest, Susan

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Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites

2010-09-01 Thread Naison Jones 
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Hi all I am new here so forgive me if my words are not perfect to this
thread.
It is interesting to note that covenant-breaker material -as the Bahais call
it- is quite different from the material of different religious sects.
If you look at Christianity you will see that it is composed of different
branches and within them the people of that religion will still follow their
religion and attempt to teach it.
On teh other hand Bahais who are known as convenant breakers follow the
pattern of putting up many many websites on the net with their semi-Bahai
propaganda.
They do rarely seem to teach the faith in themselves and fail to bring
people into the faith. Look at the Bahais who are actively engaged in teh
community and doing Ruhi and Childrens classes how they spend their time and
compare them to these people who just spend their time attacking. It is
pretty clear that they have no substance of themselves.
And for all their talk about Bahai reform what are they doing? nothing. It
is just ideals to create disunity clothed in the guise of something
seemingly fair -yet inwardly foul (as it is).
Its imcumbent on every Bahai to investigate so they can see the right from
the wrong. So the tests of those who have gone astray wont distract or even
give them pause for a moment.
Sorry that is not authenticated text im quoting just my understanding from
what i read.
Steve unfortunately since you are a new Bahai- as I understand- these things
are agitating you, and thats exactly what they want. If you were a well
deepened Bahai a strong tree with your roots firmly in the ground these
websites would pass over you like water over rock, or stormy wind uprooting
a might tree- it cant be done no matter how strong the wind.
Just be aware you are suseptable. It is a dangerous time for you when you
will be tempted by the dark side (yes allow me that starwars reference). But
its true. There are many comparisons that can be made to star wards - the
old ones and the Bahai faith. Sorry im probably saying too much now.

Also if the Bahais seem strong-worded to you you have to be aware that there
comes a point where you should stop posting these sites. Susan has asked you
very nicely many times. Why dont you respect her wishes? It is not nice to
do it over and over. Dont be a mischief-maker.
(:

cheers.

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Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites

2010-09-01 Thread Brent Poirier 

The Baha'i Studies Listserv

Stephen, your statement that only 10% of the Covenant-breaker websites 
is negative, demonstrates the problem, and your unawareness of the 
situation.


While discussing these ideas with deepened Baha'is, reading the Sacred 
Text and the Master's Last Tablet to America, and reciting prayers are 
all good ideas, there is no substitute, in your situation, for sitting 
down with your Auxiliary Board member for Protection to discuss these 
things.  Your spirit has been affected by not only the Covenant-breaker 
material but by the ravings of Fred Glaysher.  You need the calming 
spirit and benevolent influence of a member of the Protection Board, or 
a Counsellor.  You've exposed yourself to poison, and taken deep drinks 
of poison.  Might it not be time to consider what I wrote to you 
off-list?  As an enrolled believer, you have access to the NSA's website 
www.usbnc.org and prominent on that website is a list of the Auxiliary 
Board members, and you can easily find your Protection Board member; or 
as I wrote, I will help you to locate him or her.


This is more important a matter than you realize.  Take the opportunity 
that the Baha'is on this list are offering to you.  You owe it to 
yourself to learn the truth about the Baha'i Faith, and you aren't 
getting it from these websites.  They're sending you wandering off into 
the wilderness, and you're rejecting everything the Baha'is are offering 
you.  It won't hurt to get the other perspective, and your Protection 
Board is where to go -- face to face.


Brent

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