subject:"A Prophet before one thousand years\?"

> I don't know, really. But, I wonder if a no-descendant could 
> attain that 
>  "hereditary principle" which "sustains the law of God" as the 
> Master said.

How about Ali and Peter? 

>   
>  Susan, why a man or woman has to be shamed because of their 
> ancestry of 
>  covenant-breaking? Why not (if he/she is a good person) to be 
> proud about his glorious lineage?

If ones lineage is not something to be ashamed of, it shouldn't be 
something to take pride in either. 

warmest, Susan 


 
 
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Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? She?

?

> In the letter David Bowie sent, the House call next Prophet "Him", 
> but I don't know "He" is generic.

Dear Hasan, 

Yes, the House consistently uses the male form for the generic when it 
writes in English. Persian, however, has no gender. 

warmest, Susan 


 
 
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Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines

>  I'm talking about the proof that Imams are descendants of the 
> Prophet, 
>  because they claimed authority and you know they were, indeed, 
> the legitimate 
>  successors of Muhammad. Nobody never confirm scientifically 
> ADN's chains.

Dear Hasan, 

Ali was an Imam even though he was not a descendent from Muhammad. 

It isn't their descent from Muhammad that makes them Imams. It is the 
fact they received a nass (appointment.) 

>  See this:
>   
>  "Indeed, the essential pre-requisites of admittance into the 
> Bahá'í fold of Jews, Zoroastrians, Hindus, Buddhists, and the 
> followers of other ancient Faiths, as well as of agnostics and 
> even atheists, is the whole-hearted and unqualified acceptance by 
> them all of the Divine origin of both Islam and Christianity, of 
> the prophetic functions of both Muhammad and Jesus Christ, of the 
> legitimacy of the institution of the Imamate, and of the primacy 
> of St. Peter, the Prince of the Apostles. 

And yet Peter had no relation to Jesus whatsoever. 

warmest, Susan 


 
 
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Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - be proud

I don't know, really. But, I wonder if a no-descendant could attain that "hereditary principle" which “sustains the law of God” as the Master said. Susan, why a man or woman has to be shamed because of their ancestry of covenant-breaking? Why not (if he/she is a good person) to be proud about his glorious lineage?[EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: > Well, I think it would be neutral in effect. We do not, after all, > believe in original sin. If that's the case then what difference should it make if the next Manifestation descends from Baha'u'llah or not?

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Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? She?

In the letter David Bowie sent, the House call next Prophet "Him", but I don't know "He" is generic. [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: But that was the Manifestation before this One. We are talking about She who is to come.

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Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines

Susan, the question was to Scott, though if want to answer, I have no problem . I’m talking about the proof that Imams are descendants of the Prophet, because they claimed authority and you know they were, indeed, the legitimate successors of Muhammad. Nobody never confirm scientifically ADN's chains. See this: "Indeed, the essential pre-requisites of admittance into the Bahá'í fold of Jews, Zoroastrians, Hindus, Buddhists, and the followers of other ancient Faiths, as well as of agnostics and even atheists, is the whole-hearted and unqualified acceptance by them all of the Divine origin of both Islam and Christianity, of the prophetic functions of both Muhammad and Jesus Christ, of the legitimacy of the institution of the Imamate, and of the primacy of St. Peter, the Prince of the Apostles. Such are the central, the solid, the incontrovertible principles that constitute the bedrock of Bahá'í belief which the Faith of Bahá'u'lláh is proud to acknowledge, which its teachers proclaim, which is apologists defend, which its literature disseminates, which its summer schools expound, and which the rank and file of its followe!
rs attest
by both word and deed." (Shoghi Effendi: The Promised Day is Come, p. 114) [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: "That was a special indication (among others) from Siyyid Kazim Rashti to recognize the Qaim remember?" Dear Hasan, Indeed I do. But that was the Manifestation before this One. We are talking about She who is to come.
"Just curious: Do you think Imanate is not "a proof at all" because people cannot check its genealogy from Muhammad in a lab?" I don't undertand your question. The Imamat is no proof of what? warmest, Susan

Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines

"That was a special indication (among others) from Siyyid Kazim Rashti to

recognize the Qaim remember?"
Dear Hasan,
Indeed I do. But that was the Manifestation before this One. We are talking about She who is to come.
"Just curious: Do you think Imanate is not "a proof at all" because people cannot check its genealogy from Muhammad in a lab?"
I don't undertand your question. The Imamat is no proof of what?
warmest, Susan

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Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines

Scott, you may know 'Abdu'l-Bahá mentioned four ways to get the truth (senses, reason, traditions, inspiration or faith), but He says the only "infallible" way is through the Holy Ghost. I know most of them are subjective, but... You wrote: "A geneaology is no proof at all" That was a special indication (among others) from Siyyid Kazim Rashti to recognize the Qaim
remember? Just curious: Do you think Imanate is not “a proof at all” because people cannot check its genealogy from Muhammad in a lab? Scott Saylors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió:I don't think it is necessary at all. I think He will be descended from Abr!
aham, but
then I am probably descended from Abraham and you too, as you have pointed out. A geneaology is no proof at all - the only proof could be spiritual, the only means of decision would be on perceived spiritual truth - exactly the same way I came into the faith.

Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines

Susan,     I don't think it is necessary at all. I think He will be descended from Abraham, but then I am probably descended from Abraham and you too, as you have pointed out. A geneaology is no proof at all - the only proof could be spiritual, the only means of decision would be on perceived spiritual truth - exactly the same way I came into the faith.     Regards,  Scott[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  > Well, I think it would be neutral in effect. We do not, after all, > believe in original sin. If that's the case then what difference should it make if the next Manifestation descends from Baha'u'llah or not? The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC"!
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Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines

It doesn't, Susan. We will be faced with the same choice that we all had - the reliance on our own rational soul to choose the truth and follow it.     Regards,  Scott[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  > I see your point and agree, but would point out that we have > accepted Shoghi Effendi before we read his family tree. In the > future when a false claimant might arise, why should we accept his > "genealogy as "true", when it could have been forged?Where does Baha'u'llah indicate that acceptance of a Manifestation should depend on His being able to produce a geneaology? The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of !
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Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines

> Well, I think it would be neutral in effect. We do not, after all, 
> believe in original sin. 

If that's the case then what difference should it make if the next 
Manifestation descends from Baha'u'llah or not? 


 
 
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Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines

> I see your point and agree, but would point out that we have 
> accepted Shoghi Effendi before we read his family tree. In the 
> future when a false claimant might arise, why should we accept his 
> "genealogy as "true", when it could have been forged?

Where does Baha'u'llah indicate that acceptance of a Manifestation 
should depend on His being able to produce a geneaology? 


 
 
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Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines

We don't have any basis of decision other than the spiritual decision when it comes down to it. We made the decision to follow Baha`u'llah because our spirit recognized Him, in the future that wil be the answer for anyone else as well. Regards, ScottHasan Elias <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:I don't know Scott I suppose next Prophet will be from Bahá'u'lláh's line, but nothing is written so far I think. Scott Saylors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió:I see your point and agree, but would point out that we have accepted Shoghi Effendi before we read his family tree. In the!
future
when a false claimant might arise, why should we accept his "genealogy as "true", when it could have been forged? Its just a document, and we all know documents can be forged. We do have, after all, the example of Subhi Azal (Mirza Yahya) forgin the Bab's documents. Regards, Scott The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified th!
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Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines

I don't know Scott I suppose next Prophet will be from Bahá'u'lláh's line, but nothing is written so far I think. Scott Saylors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió:I see your point and agree, but would point out that we have accepted Shoghi Effendi before we read his family tree. In the future when a false claimant might arise, why should we accept his "genealogy as "true", when it could have been forged? Its just a document, and we all know documents can be forged. We do have, after all, the example of Subhi Azal (Mirza Yahya) forgin the Bab's documents. Regards, Scott

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Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines

Well, I think it would be neutral in effect. We do not, after all, believe in original sin. I think we will see any number of descendants of covenant breakers come to the faith over the next centuries. Is their forebear's sin there's as well? Regards, Scott[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > I am not trying to upset you. I am not joking. Think of it > this way: In the future someone appears CLAIMING to be the next > Manifestation and produces a family tree showing he is descended > from Baha`u'llah. Dear Scott, A family tree showing he is a descendent from Baha'u'llah would also show he descends from the Covenant breakers in Baha'u'llah's family. Would this work to his credit or discredit? warmest, Susan The information contained in !
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Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines

I see your point and agree, but would point out that we have accepted Shoghi Effendi before we read his family tree. In the future when a false claimant might arise, why should we accept his "genealogy as "true", when it could have been forged? Its just a document, and we all know documents can be forged. We do have, after all, the example of Subhi Azal (Mirza Yahya) forgin the Bab's documents. Regards, ScottHasan Elias <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I give less positivism and more credit to traditions and genetic lines, Shoghi Effendi and Nabil liked to draw Ho!
ly trees
on religion and monarchs trees, explaining much times meanings within (the Bible contains a lot). Personally, I like to see the relations of Divine Lotus Tree. I think trace family trees is a good custom maybe related to ancient cultures as Hebrews. I invite you to see the genealogy of beloved Guardian here: http://bahai-library.com/?file=gonzales_genealogy_shoghieffendi Scott Saylors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió: I am not trying to upset you. I am not joking. Think of it this way: In the future someone appears CLAIMING to be the next Manife! station and produces a family tree showing he is descended from Baha`u'llah. Why can that family tree NOT be falsified? So, in that insta!
nce, it
would prove nothing by itself. One would still have to make the decision to follow or not follow on a spiritual basis. Regards, Scott The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email!
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Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines

Dear Gilberto, 

Khazeh persuaded me to rethink my position and accept what you felt to 
be an apology. 

You're welcome to stay. 

Susan 


 
 
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Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines

>  I am not trying to upset you. I am not joking. Think of it 
> this way: In the future someone appears CLAIMING to be the next 
> Manifestation and produces a family tree showing he is descended 
> from Baha`u'llah. 

Dear Scott, 

A family tree showing he is a descendent from Baha'u'llah would also 
show he descends from the Covenant breakers in Baha'u'llah's family. 
Would this work to his credit or discredit? 

warmest, Susan 


 
 
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Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines

I sent it again, my message ddidn't arrive I give less positivism and more credit to traditions and genetic lines, Shoghi Effendi and Nabil liked to draw Holy trees on religion and monarch’s trees, explaining much times meanings within (the Bible contains a lot). Personally, I like to see the relations of Divine Lotus Tree. I think trace family trees is a good custom maybe related to ancient cultures as Hebrews. I invite you to see the genealogy of beloved Guardian here: http://bahai-library.com/?file=gonzales_genealogy_shoghieffendi Scott Saylors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió: I am not trying to upset you. I am not joking. Think of it this way: In the future someone appears CLAIMING to be the next Manifestation and produces a family tree showing he is descended from Baha`u'llah. Why can that family tree NOT be falsified? So, in that instance, it would prove nothing by itself. One would still have to make the decision to follow or not follow on a spiritual basis. Regards, Scott

Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines

I give less positivism and more credit to traditions and genetic lines, Shoghi Effendi and Nabil liked to draw Holy trees on religion and monarch’s trees, explaining much times meanings within (the Bible contains a lot). Personally, I like to see the relations of Divine Lotus Tree. I think trace family trees is a good custom maybe related to ancient cultures as Hebrews. I invite you to see the genealogy of beloved Guardian here:
http://bahai-library.com/?file=gonzales_genealogy_shoghieffendi Scott Saylors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió: I am not trying to upset you. I am not joking. Think of it this way: In the future someone appears CLAIMING to be the next Manife!
station
and produces a family tree showing he is descended from Baha`u'llah. Why can that family tree NOT be falsified? So, in that instance, it would prove nothing by itself. One would still have to make the decision to follow or not follow on a spiritual basis. Regards, Scott

Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines

> I showed you evidence for my claims about your beliefs which was also
> another option which you offered.

Gilberto, 

I specifically asked you to show me where *I* said anything like that 
about the Jews. You did not do so. 

 But in addition I also made a
> statement which constituted an apology. 

It sure wasn't an apology to me. You clearly don't see the problem 
with what you said, which only means you will repeat it again. If 
that's the case, I don't want you here. 

> I think we are two individuals who are equally deserving of
> consideration and respect. If you "get to" say offensive and 
insulting
> things to me without apologizing, then if I say something you don't
> like, it would be inappropriate to give an ultimatum the way you did,
> especially when my intention wasn't to offend.

Obviously we don't see eye to eye about what constitutes consideration 
and respect, so it is best we just part company. You were here as a 
guest to begin with and its apparent you've overstayed your welcome. 

Susan 



 
 
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Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines

2006-01-29 Thread Gilberto Simpson

> On 1/30/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Gilberto,

> Did I miss your post apologizing to me, or did I not make it clear
> that you are not welcome here without one?

I showed you evidence for my claims about your beliefs which was also
another option which you offered. But in addition I also made a
statement which constituted an apology. You then cut and isolated the
least apologetic sentence and said "this is not an apology". And when
I pasted the rest of my statements back into the conversation in order
to provide more context, you complained that I had distorted your
words. (which would only be a problem if what you took out actually
was an apology)

I think we are two individuals who are equally deserving of
consideration and respect. If you "get to" say offensive and insulting
things to me without apologizing, then if I say something you don't
like, it would be inappropriate to give an ultimatum the way you did,
especially when my intention wasn't to offend.

Is there a charter for the group which explains conditions for participation?

-Gilberto






> Susan
>
>
>
>
> The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto 
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> intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity 
> named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy 
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> not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, 
> distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have 
> received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply 
> and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any 
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>
>
> __
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Re: A Prophet before one thousand years?

2006-01-29 Thread Khazeh








Regardless of how you spell it, badaa or 
bada, the list vowel is a long"A" as in "fAther". You can trasliterate it 
badA or badAA, or badaa, orbada, or whatever. The second letter is a short 
"a" as in "bad". But I should have deferred to our very erudite Khazeh 
...
 
Iskandar
 
Dear Brent,My recollection is that he 
said they had a different root. Unfortunately, we can't access the archives 
any more to check. Khazeh jan, are you out there? warmest, Susan 

Dearest all
 
i swear by God
I beg forgiveness of God by virtue of Iskandar jan's 
kind references to this dust. i am nothing and daily my sense of nothingness 
before the Almighty Ocean of this Revelation increases.
 
Dearest Brent has explained things beautifully as well 
as Iskandar jan and Susan yourself.
 
but just on the simple level of etymology and 
words.
 
1] there is a word and verb B.D. 'A [with 'ayn] as the 
last of the tri-literal letters.
this one means creating anew creating wondrously etc 
from which on the POSITIVE sense we have badii' with 'ayn at the end as the name 
of the Martyr [but negatively its meaning and connotation is starting a new 
practice such as the Shari'ah of this faith is accused of as being as a bid'at] 
so both positively and negatively its root is B.D.'A [with the 
'ayn]
 
2] then there is the word and verb badaa' with a long 
alif at the end. this comes from the tri-literal root B.D. A [but this time the 
A is alif]...this one is the subject of the discussion re: Noah's promise not 
coming to pass and the reference to the Imam Ja'far S.aadiq's son 
...]
 
but that aside there are mysteries in the Faith 
wonderful mysteries
 
may my being be a sacrifice to your 
efforts
but i am absolutely humbled by the Magnitude of this 
Revelation and affected by your kindness. Everything emanates from Him and the 
love and kindness of God's Universal House of Justice
 
 
Brent said:
 
"10. QUESTION: Shaving the head hath been forbidden 
in theKitáb-i-Aqdas but enjoined in the Suriy-i-Hajj.""ANSWER: All 
are charged with obedience to theKitáb-i-Aqdas; whatsoever is revealed 
therein isthe Law of God amid His servants. The injunctionon pilgrims to 
the sacred House to shave the headhath been lifted."(Tablet of Questions 
and Answers, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 109)So Baha'u'llah revealed a Tablet 
requiring pilgrims to shave the head; then in the Aqdas prohibited shaving the 
head.  Did He change His mind?  I think that is perhaps the 
first instinct, to think that.  But a few other thoughts come to mind. One 
is that by this law, Baha'u'llah was demonstrating that He *could* have 
requiring pilgrims to shave the head.  Then this law would be seen in the 
same light as the laws of the Bayan, which the Guardian explained were never 
intended to be enforced, but rather to demonstrate the sovereignty of the Bab as 
an independent Manifestation.So the reason that a Manifestation reveals 
something, is not always the obvious one.My personal take on this, is 
that in this verse from Questions and Answers Baha'u'llah is demonstrating the 
pre-eminence of the Aqdas over His other Writings.  It is a more effective 
lesson and sinks deeper than merely stating that it is 
pre-eminent.Similarly, some time after He originally revealed it, 
Baha'u'llah later added a passage to the Iqan, in which He expresses His 
devotion to the Bab and states that He wants to lay down His life for Him.  
Shoghi Effendi selected this passage for the frontispiece to the Dawn-Breakers, 
not knowing that it was an afterthought.  Hand of the Cause Ugo Giachery 
was present when the original of the Iqan in the handwriting of `Abdu'l-Baha was 
presented to Shoghi Effendi:"These manuscripts, Shoghi Effendi stated, 
were transcribed by 'Abdu'l-Bahá in His beautiful calligraphy, when He was about 
eighteen years old, and bore some additions in the Hand of Bahá'u'lláh, 
insertions which He had written on the margins of many pages in reviewing the 
manuscripts. Shoghi Effendi had never before seen the original of the Íqán and 
was deeply astonished to discover that the phrase he had chosen from this book 
and placed on the title page of his translation of Nabil's Narrative, The 
Dawn-Breakers, was an after-reflection of Bahá'u'lláh's, written by Himself, on 
the margin of one page. The phrase in question is the one starting: 'I stand, 
life in hand, ready; that perchance...'[KI, p. 161 (Brit. ed.), p. 252 (U.S. 
ed.). See DB for the translation here used, which appears on the title 
page.]"The Guardian, that evening, was not only astonished but overjoyed 
as well, because he was conscious that through a mysterious process he had been 
inspired to adopt that phrase as an eternal testimonial to Bahá'u'lláh's 
yearning to sacrifice His life for the Báb, the Primal Point. All of us who were 
seated at the table were awed and profoundly stirred, and I, in particular, felt 
that the existence of a spiritual link between our Guardian and the invisible 
world of God was so

Re: A Prophet before one thousand years?

He used to say that in Baha'i theology, badAA simply means 
> that a
> every 1000 years or so, a new manifestation of God comes and
> changes/abrogates some Divine laws of the preceding Manifestaion 
> of God.
> To me, this has always made a lot of sense. BadAA is nothing but
> Progressive Revelation. 

Dear Iskandar, 

The concept of badaa may well include Progressive Revelation, but 
given the way it is used in the Writings it is certainly not exclusive 
to it. 

warmest, Susan 


 
 
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Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines

Gilberto, 

Did I miss your post apologizing to me, or did I not make it clear 
that you are not welcome here without one? 

Susan 


 
 
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Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines

2006-01-29 Thread Gilberto Simpson

On 1/29/06, Hasan Elias <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Susan, do you think next Prophet will be a descendent of Abraham through
> Aghsán or Afnán lines?
>
> If the answer is 'yes', then how can we sure He/She is? Historically, Siyyid
> Kazim said the Qaim (the Báb) was of pure lineage, people can easy recognize
> it because of 'siyyid's denomination.
>
> If the answer is 'no', I question: is it not promised to Abraham to be the
> seed of all Prophets?

There is a passage in the Quran which is sometimes read that way.

But about the earlier issue, I think that if you go back far enough we
are "all" related. For example, there is some indication that even
John Kerry is descended from the prophet Muhammad (saaws)... I think
through some distant Persian ancestry. And so he is also descended
from Abraham.

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Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines

2006-01-29 Thread Don Calkins

At 11:52 AM -0600 1/29/06, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> From Adan to Shoghi Effendi, there is a continuous blood line,

that is why I ask about the importance of "spiritual genes".

Dear Hasan,

It is not a blood line that can really be traced historically. Give a
few hundred years and everyone is related to everyone else anyhow.

If all the descendants of a couple marry and have 2 children, after
35 generations you have 2 to the power of 35 descendants or about 35
billion. That's why every white guy in the world, and many
non-whites, can trace their family tree back to Charlemagne.

A couple things complicate this -
Rejecting matrilineal descendants,
Marrying cousins.

Don C

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Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines

2006-01-29 Thread Scott Saylors

I am not trying to upset you. I am not joking. Think of it this way: In the future someone appears CLAIMING to be the next Manifestation and produces a family tree showing he is descended from Baha`u'llah. Why can that family tree NOT be falsified? So, in that instance, it would prove nothing by itself. One would still have to make the decision to follow or not follow on a spiritual basis. Regards, ScottHasan Elias <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: You still joke? If family trees are nothing for you, then the hereditary principle (including our beloved Guardian in it) should be nothing !
but
NOTHING for you until you check it in a laboratory! The same for the Imanate until you be sure or desecrate Imams holy tombs. The glorious lineage of both the Báb and Baháulláh, the instruction of Siyyid Kazim, etc., etc.Scott Saylors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió:Family trees are proof of nothing, really. They are at best a "contention". No, desecrating a tomb is not an answer, and getting actually genetic proof of anything! is not going to be a possibility. The choice will have to be what it has always been, a spiritual decision, reached by taking free will in one's grasp and accepting responsibility for it when the time comes. Regards, Scott
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Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines

You still joke? If family trees are “nothing” for you, then the “hereditary principle” (including our beloved Guardian in it) should be nothing but NOTHING for you until you check it in a laboratory! The same for the Imanate until you be sure or desecrate Imams’ holy tombs. The “glorious lineage” of both the Báb and Bahá’u’lláh, the instruction of Siyyid Kazim, etc., etc.Scott Saylors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió:Family trees are proof of nothing, really. They are at best a "contention". No, desecrating a tomb is not an answer, and getting actually genetic proof of anything!
is not
going to be a possibility. The choice will have to be what it has always been, a spiritual decision, reached by taking free will in one's grasp and accepting responsibility for it when the time comes. Regards, Scott

Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines

2006-01-29 Thread Scott Saylors

Family trees are proof of nothing, really. They are at best a "contention". No, desecrating a tomb is not an answer, and getting actually genetic proof of anything is not going to be a possibility. The choice will have to be what it has always been, a spiritual decision, reached by taking free will in one's grasp and accepting responsibility for it when the time comes. Regards, ScottHasan Elias <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:too extreme no? you must be kidding, I thougtht there was another way like follow genealogical family tree but never desecrate holy tombs!... Scott Saylors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió:So who do we dig up to get the DNA baseline? The Bab, since we have no direct descendants left, for sure - we need both his "Y" Chromosome DNA and his matrilineal mitochondrial material. Then we'll need the same for the line of Baha`u'llah - so we'll need to disinter either Bahas`u'llah or Abdu'l Baha. I think you might appreciate the idea that this might be considered desecration by many. Regards, Scott The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The informat!
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Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines

too extreme no? you must be kidding, I thougtht there was another way like follow genealogical family tree but never desecrate holy tombs!... Scott Saylors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió:So who do we dig up to get the DNA baseline? The Bab, since we have no direct descendants left, for sure - we need both his "Y" Chromosome DNA and his matrilineal mitochondrial material. Then we'll need the same for the line of Baha`u'llah - so we'll need to disinter either Bahas`u'llah or Abdu'l Baha. I think you might appreciate the idea that this might be considered desecration by many. Regards, Scott

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Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines

2006-01-29 Thread Scott Saylors

So who do we dig up to get the DNA baseline? The Bab, since we have no direct descendants left, for sure - we need both his "Y" Chromosome DNA and his matrilineal mitochondrial material. Then we'll need the same for the line of Baha`u'llah - so we'll need to disinter either Bahas`u'llah or Abdu'l Baha. I think you might appreciate the idea that this might be considered desecration by many. Regards, ScottHasan Elias <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:[EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: As a historian I can't even be sure that Abraham ever existed. But if He did then I expect everyone will be a descendent from Abraham by the time the next Manifestation arrives. That is just the way demographics work. / For you a historian is the same as a baháí historian or a baháí who is an historian? why you worry? Islam has something like fifteen centuries but not all people of the world have siyyids roots. Have you? [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: > Historically, Siyyid Kazim said the Qaim (the Báb) was of pure > lineage, people can easy recognize it because of ?siyyid?s > denomination. Yeah, because the wore special turbans. ;-} / I think Im getting your point but with technology we can trace these blood lines, dont you think? [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: > If the answer is ?no?, I question: is it not promised to Abraham > to be the seed of all Prophets?Does that need to be understood literally? I think the common Baha'i belief that Zoroaster, Buddha and Krishna are from the seed of Ab! raham is probably a myth. Yeah, but for example: Adam, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus (city-State unity) and Muhammad (nation unity sealing Prophets) are from Israels prophetic root. So, Abraham is the seed of all them (Israels
root). As you know (not common history) there WERE Prophets in all parts of the world, but for some reason Israel! s root is the main root. My logic sense says that Abraham has nothing to do with Wiracocha, an ancient Prophet of my country Peru. The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the !
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Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines

[EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: As a historian I can't even be sure that Abraham ever existed. But if He did then I expect everyone will be a descendent from Abraham by the time the next Manifestation arrives. That is just the way demographics work. / For you a “historian” is the same as a “bahá’í historian” or a “bahá’í who is an historian”? – why you worry? Islam has something like fifteen centuries but not all people of the world have siyyids’ roots. Have you? [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: > Historically, Siyyid Kazim said the Qaim (the Báb) was of pure > lineage, people can easy recognize it because of ?siyyid?s > denomination. Yeah, because the wore special turbans. ;-} / I think I’m getting your point… but with technology we can trace these blood lines, don’t you think? [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: > If the answer is ?no?, I question: is it not promised to Abraham > to be the seed of all Prophets?Does that need to be understood literally? I think the common Baha'i belief that Zoroaster, Buddha and Krishna are from the seed of Ab!
raham
is probably a myth. Yeah, but for example: Adam, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus (“city-State unity”) and Muhammad (“nation unity” sealing Prophets) are from Israel’s prophetic root. So, Abraham is the seed of all them (Israel’s root). As you know (not common history) there WERE Prophets in all parts of the world, but for some reason Israel’!
s root is
the main root. My logic sense says that Abraham has nothing to do with Wiracocha, an ancient Prophet of my country Peru.

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Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines







I'm not sure.[EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió:  > Possibly from past lines.> I don't think you would like, but we can do this for Afnán and > Aghsán. Dear Hasan, I expect in a few hundred years everyone will have some Afnan blood in their veins. As for those who descend from Covenant breakers, they are more likely to want to hide their lineage, don't you think? warmest, Susan  



 
 

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Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? Guardians' line







Yes, I think the cut of Guardians’ line is about badaa, maybe because unworthiness of humans, and this unworthiness because we don’t reach the high standard. If a hypothetically future living Guardian could easily recognize next Prophet, it will be “ate bread” (pan comido), humanity, thus won’t deserve this; we can think in a lot of reasons.        What is true is that Aghsán and Holy family did not fulfill this hope of 'Abdu'l-Bahá (on the contrary, they caused sadness): “O ye the faithful loved ones of 'Abdu'l-Bahá! It is incumbent upon you to take the greatest care of Shoghi Effendi, the twig that hath branched from and the fruit given forth by the two hallowed and Divine Lote-Trees, that no dust of despondency and sorrow may stain his radiant nature, that day by day he may wax greater in happiness, in joy and spirituality, and may grow to become even as a fruitful tree”.        Brent Poirier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió:     I compare this to Bahaâ€™uâ€™llah revealing verses, then casting them into the river. (GPB 138) It was Godâ€™s Will to reveal them; but then, as Bahaâ€™uâ€™llah says, no one was found worthy to hear them. Perhaps the Guardi!
 an and
 House functioning together was the desired approach, but humanity was not found worthy. That doesnâ€™t mean that the clear Covenant was not fulfilled.    



 
 

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Re: A Prophet before one thousand years?

2006-01-29 Thread Iskandar Hai, M.D.

My understanding is that this badAA concept/doctrine is a Shi`ii thing. I
don't know if Sunni Muslims have a particular emphasis on it. For Shi`ah
Muslims badAA is when God chnages His mind. The successor the the Shi`ah
6th Imam (Imam J`afar the Truthful) was supposed to be his son Ismael
(IsmA`il). Strories vary as to why and hos it got changed to J`afar's son
MusA al-kAzim. Hence, the Twelver Shi`ites believe that MusA is/was the
legitimate successor to J`afar. But you also have the IsmA`ily sect. 

Anyhow, my own personal understanding of the term badAA in the Baha'i
Writings is formed by what I heard from the renowned Persian Baha'i
scholar and prolific writer `abdu'l-hameed ishrAq-khAvari (who himself was
an erudite and well-read Shi`ah Muslim cleric before he embraced The
Faith). He used to say that in Baha'i theology, badAA simply means that a
every 1000 years or so, a new manifestation of God comes and
changes/abrogates some Divine laws of the preceding Manifestaion of God.
To me, this has always made a lot of sense. BadAA is nothing but
Progressive Revelation. 

Regardless of how you spell it, badaa or bada, the list vowel is a long
"A" as in "fAther". You can trasliterate it badA or badAA, or badaa, or
bada, or whatever. The second letter is a short "a" as in "bad". 

But I should have deferred to our very erudite Khazeh for his encylopaedic
knowledge of all things Islamic and Christian and Jewish and Baha'i. 

With apologies and respectful regards, 
Iskandar





 
 
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Re: A Prophet before one thousand years?

> Khazeh Fananapazir once said that bada'a is from the same root as 
> Badi’. 

Dear Brent,

My recollection is that he said they had a different root. 
Unfortunately, we can't access the archives any more to check. 

Khazeh jan, are you out there? 

warmest, Susan 


 
 
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Re: A Prophet before one thousand years?

2006-01-29 Thread Brent Poirier

"10. QUESTION: Shaving the head hath been forbidden in the
Kitáb-i-Aqdas but enjoined in the Suriy-i-Hajj."

"ANSWER: All are charged with obedience to the
Kitáb-i-Aqdas; whatsoever is revealed therein is
the Law of God amid His servants. The injunction
on pilgrims to the sacred House to shave the head
hath been lifted."
(Tablet of Questions and Answers, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 109)

So Baha'u'llah revealed a Tablet requiring pilgrims to shave the head; then in 
the Aqdas prohibited shaving the head.  

Did He change His mind?  I think that is perhaps the first instinct, to think 
that.  But a few other thoughts come to mind. One is that by this law, 
Baha'u'llah was demonstrating that He *could* have requiring pilgrims to shave 
the head.  Then this law would be seen in the same light as the laws of the 
Bayan, which the Guardian explained were never intended to be enforced, but 
rather to demonstrate the sovereignty of the Bab as an independent 
Manifestation.

So the reason that a Manifestation reveals something, is not always the obvious 
one.

My personal take on this, is that in this verse from Questions and Answers 
Baha'u'llah is demonstrating the pre-eminence of the Aqdas over His other 
Writings.  It is a more effective lesson and sinks deeper than merely stating 
that it is pre-eminent.

Similarly, some time after He originally revealed it, Baha'u'llah later added a 
passage to the Iqan, in which He expresses His devotion to the Bab and states 
that He wants to lay down His life for Him.  Shoghi Effendi selected this 
passage for the frontispiece to the Dawn-Breakers, not knowing that it was an 
afterthought.  Hand of the Cause Ugo Giachery was present when the original of 
the Iqan in the handwriting of `Abdu'l-Baha was presented to Shoghi Effendi:

"These manuscripts, Shoghi Effendi stated, were transcribed by 'Abdu'l-Bahá in 
His beautiful calligraphy, when He was about eighteen years old, and bore some 
additions in the Hand of Bahá'u'lláh, insertions which He had written on the 
margins of many pages in reviewing the manuscripts. Shoghi Effendi had never 
before seen the original of the Íqán and was deeply astonished to discover that 
the phrase he had chosen from this book and placed on the title page of his 
translation of Nabil's Narrative, The Dawn-Breakers, was an after-reflection of 
Bahá'u'lláh's, written by Himself, on the margin of one page. The phrase in 
question is the one starting: 'I stand, life in hand, ready; that 
perchance...'[KI, p. 161 (Brit. ed.), p. 252 (U.S. ed.). See DB for the 
translation here used, which appears on the title page.]

"The Guardian, that evening, was not only astonished but overjoyed as well, 
because he was conscious that through a mysterious process he had been inspired 
to adopt that phrase as an eternal testimonial to Bahá'u'lláh's yearning to 
sacrifice His life for the Báb, the Primal Point. All of us who were seated at 
the table were awed and profoundly stirred, and I, in particular, felt that the 
existence of a spiritual link between our Guardian and the invisible world of 
God was something that no one should ever doubt."
(Ugo Giachery, Shoghi Effendi - Recollections, p. 148)

So again, does this mean that Baha'u'llah changed His mind about the contents 
of the Iqan?  Or was this a way of emphasizing this passage?

Perhaps we can read of an addition to the Aqdas in the same light:

"The eighth Ishraq

"This passage, now written by the Pen of Glory, is accounted as part of the 
Most Holy Book: The men of God's House of Justice have been charged with the 
affairs of the people. They, in truth, are the Trustees of God among His 
servants and the daysprings of authority in His countries.

"O people of God! That which traineth the world is Justice, for it is upheld by 
two pillars, reward and punishment. These two pillars are the sources of life 
to the world. Inasmuch as for each day there is a new problem and for every 
problem an expedient solution, such affairs should be referred to the House of 
Justice that the members thereof may act according to the needs and 
requirements of the time. They that, for the sake of God, arise to serve His 
Cause, are the recipients of divine inspiration from the unseen Kingdom. It is 
incumbent upon all to be obedient unto them. All matters of State should be 
referred to the House of Justice, but acts of worship must be observed 
according to that which God hath revealed in His Book."
(Baha'u'llah, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, pp. 128-129)

Does this mean that Baha'u'llah didn't think of this passage when He authored 
the Aqdas?  That God left something out of the Book, and Baha'u'llah remedied 
it later?

It is my own personal view that by this method Baha'u'llah has emphasized this 
matter.  Just as the Master selected the very last verse of His Will -- 
literally the very last words He addressed to the human race -- to direct us to 
turn to the House of Justice and the Guardian and seek their guidance; in th

Re: A Prophet before one thousand years?

2006-01-29 Thread Brent Poirier

I think that this is one of the instances of bada'a in the Writings. Here is is 
translated as "creation":  ". . . the Beauty of the Unseen hath shone forth 
above the horizon of creation" Prayers and Meditations p. 311.

Khazeh Fananapazir once said that bada'a is from the same root as Badi’.  I 
understand Badi’ to mean unique, wonderful, new, unprecedented, never before 
seen, among other meanings.  So I gather that the application to God changing 
His mind – (a very anthropomorphic concept, as we are talking about universal 
Mind and not limited, linear, rational, dinky little human mind) -- has to do 
with originating something new.

My view of the ending of the line of Guardians is that it is not the failure of 
a promise.  The Guardian functioning with the House was anticipated by the 
Master, but in the second part of His Will He does not mention the Guardianship 
and provides for the House to function infallibly without the Guardian; and 
Baha’u’llah in the Aqdas foreshadows the possibility of the ending of the line 
of Guardians before the House is established (Aqdas Note 66).

It is my understanding that the continuation of the line of Guardians 
functioning with the House was one of several options.  Another option 
anticipated was that the House would have come into being right after the 
Master’s passing, and that Shoghi Effendi would not have functioned without the 
House.  Another was the way it actually came about.

I compare this to Baha’u’llah revealing verses, then casting them into the 
river.  (GPB 138)  It was God’s Will to reveal them; but then, as Baha’u’llah 
says, no one was found worthy to hear them. Perhaps the Guardian and House 
functioning together was the desired approach, but humanity was not found 
worthy.  That doesn’t mean that the clear Covenant was not fulfilled.

As to the verse about day not being followed by night, Shoghi Effendi did 
relate this to the line of Guardians. It means that guidance remains on the 
earth until the next Manifestation comes – there is no “night”.  The guidance 
promised to the Guardian in the Master’s Will, is the same guidance promised to 
the House, in the same verse. (Master’s Will, p. 11).  The House also takes 
this approach:

“The election of the Universal House of Justice was greeted with great joy by 
the world-wide Bahá'í community, for it ensured the continuation of divine 
guidance until the advent of the next Manifestation of God, thereby fulfilling 
the prophecy that there would come a ‘Day which shall not be followed by 
night.’"
(The Universal House of Justice, Messages 1963 to 1986, p. xxvii; also see 
letter in the Scholarship Compilation).

As to whether the Guardian, in referring to the “machinery” remaining behind 
after Baha’u’llah into future Dispensations, and whether this refers to the 
House of Justice always being on the earth:

It should also be borne in mind that the machinery of the Cause has been so 
fashioned, that whatever is deemed necessary to incorporate into it in order to 
keep it in the forefront of all progressive movements, can, according to the 
provisions made by Bahá'u'lláh, be safely embodied therein. To this testify the 
words of Bahá'u'lláh, as recorded in the Eighth Leaf of the exalted Paradise: 
"It is incumbent upon the Trustees of the House of Justice to take counsel 
together regarding those things which have not outwardly been revealed in the 
Book, and to enforce that which is agreeable to them. God will verily inspire 
them with whatsoever He willeth, and He, verily, is the Provider, the 
Omniscient."
(Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 22)


And finally the tenth part of this mighty process must be the penetration of 
that light, in the course of numerous crusades and of successive epochs of both 
the Formative and Golden Ages of the Faith, into all the remaining territories 
of the globe through the erection of the entire machinery of Bahá'u'lláh's 
Administrative Order in all territories, both East and West, the stage at which 
the light of God's triumphant Faith shining in all its power and glory will 
have suffused and enveloped the entire planet.
(Shoghi Effendi, Messages to the Baha'i World - 1950-1957, p. 155)

The House of Justice is the crown of that machinery.

Brent



 
 
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Re: A Prophet before one thousand years?

> Dear Susan, do you know any text on which the Central Figures or 
> the Guardian mention the word badaa/badah? I would like to see the 
> context/meaning of this word.

Dear Hasan, 

Sometime back Khazeh put up a rather long post on this theme. 
Essentially all the Central Figures and the Guardian have mentioned 
this doctrine. 

One of the passages Khazeh brought to our attention is the fact that 
third chapter of the fourth Vahid of the Persian Bayan is  dedicated 
to this topic. [Khudaavand ibaadat kardeh na-meeshavad be-heech cheez 
mesl-e-Badaa.] The Bab asserts that the teaching  Badaa' in both 
Shi'ism in general  and Shaykhism in particular are valid. Page 112 of 
this text asserts unequivocally that "fi annal-badaa lillahi haqqun.' 
Roughly translated, this means that badaa is of divine origin. It goes 
on to say that no one can worship God who rejects this doctrine for 
they are essentially saying "lima wa bima" why and wherefore when He 
changes His decree. For those of you who don't know 
any Arabic Edward Browne  translates the four pages of this part of 
the Bayan 
which are quoted in Momen's book, p.  351: "concerning this that God 
doth in 
truth change His plans God is not worshipped in anything as He is by 
the 
doctrine of al-Badaa since this is a confession of His power." 
Also, in the Seven Proofs page 51 line 13 the Bab affirms the doctrine 
of 
badaa' [Az baraaye-Khudaavand Badaa' boodeh...] 

Amanat's book gives several instances of badaa' in Babi history 
especially 
regarding the time when it was expected that the Bab would formally 
start a 
jihad against the unbelievers. I couldn't find my copy of Amanat's 
book so I 
will provide this account from Dawnbreakers: 


"Soon after Naw-Ruz, an epistle 
reached them by way of Basrih, in which the Bab, who had 
intended to return from Hijaz to Persia by way of Karbila, 
informed them of the change in His plan and of His consequent 
inability to fulfil His promise.  He directed them to 
proceed to Isfahan and remain there until the receipt of 
further instructions.  "Should it be deemed advisable," He 
added, "We shall request you to proceed to Shiraz; if not, 
tarry in Isfahan until such time as God may make known 
to you His will and guidance." 
 The receipt of this unexpected intelligence created a 
considerable 
stir among those who had been eagerly awaiting 
the arrival of the Bab at Karbila.  It agitated their minds 
and tested their loyalty.  "What of His promise to us?" 
whispered a few of the discontented among them.  "Does 
He regard the breaking of His pledge as the interposition of 
the will of God?"  The others, unlike those waverers, became 
more steadfast in their faith and clung with added determination 
to the Cause.  Faithful to their Master, they joyously 
responded to His invitation, ignoring entirely the criticisms 
and protestations of those who had faltered in their faith." p. 168. 


In Baha'u'llah's Writings there is a reference to badaa' in the Tablet 
of 
Visitation wherein it says:" the Beauty of the Unseen hath shone forth 
above 
the horizon of 
creation." The term translated as creation is literally badaa'. 


The most well-known reference to badaa' in the Writing is of course 
the story 
of Noah as given in the Iqan: 


"Long afterward, He several times promised victory to His companions 
and 
fixed the hour thereof.  But when the hour struck, the divine promise 
was 
not fulfilled.[dar har martabah Badaa' shod]  This caused 
a few among the small number of His followers to turn away from Him, 
and to 
this testify the records of the best-known books. These you must 
certainly 
have perused; if not, undoubtedly you will.   
 And now, consider and reflect a moment upon the waywardness of 
this 
people.  What could have been the reason for such denial and avoidance 
on 
their part?  What could have induced them to refuse to put off the 
garment 
of denial, and to adorn themselves with the robe of acceptance?  
Moreover, 
what could have caused the nonfulfilment of the divine promise ["chera 
dar 
wa'deh haaye- Elaahee Badaa' shod"] which led the seekers to reject 
that which 
they had accepted? (KI: 7-8) 


Now, there are certain instances where the doctrine of badaa' does not 
apply. 
For instance when Shoghi Effendi insisted that the House of 
Baha'u'llah in 
Baghdad would be eventually rebuilt he stated: "dar in maqaam badaa 
hukmi 
nadaashteh wa nadaarad" 
"In this context the teaching of Badaa has not had nor will have a 
bearing..." 

warmest, Susan 


 


 
 
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Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines

>  Susan, do you think next Prophet will be a descendent of Abraham 
> through Aghsán or Afnán lines?
>   
>  If the answer is ?yes?, then how can we sure He/She is? 

Dear Hasan, 

As a historian I can't even be sure that Abraham ever existed. But if 
He did then I expect everyone will be a descendent from Abraham by the 
time the next Manifestation arrives. That is just the way demographics 
work. 

> Historically, Siyyid Kazim said the Qaim (the Báb) was of pure 
> lineage, people can easy recognize it because of ?siyyid?s 
> denomination.   

Yeah, because the wore special turbans. ;-}

>  If the answer is ?no?, I question: is it not promised to Abraham 
> to be the seed of all Prophets?

Does that need to be understood literally? I think the common Baha'i 
belief that Zoroaster, Buddha and Krishna are from the seed of Abraham 
is probably a myth. 

warmest, Susan 


 
 
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Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines

> Possibly from past lines.
>  I don't think you would like, but we can do this for Afnán and 
> Aghsán.   

Dear Hasan, 

I expect in a few hundred years everyone will have some Afnan blood in 
their veins. As for those who descend from Covenant breakers, they are 
more likely to want to hide their lineage, don't you think? 

warmest, Susan 


 
 
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Re: A Prophet before one thousand years?







Dear Susan, do you know any text on which the Central Figures or the Guardian mention the word badaa/badah? I would like to see the context/meaning of this word.  [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió:  > Bahá'u'lláh forbids us to interpret the holy verse of the Aqdas > about 1000 or more years the next Coming.> > I wonder if this BADAH (the possibility of a Prophet before 1000 > years) is broking that command.Dear Hasan, Except what you are actually asking is not if the verse in question can be interpreted differently (which it cannot) but whether God can change His mind about this, which is theoretically possible but creates so many difficulties as to be inconceivable, in my view. warmest, Susan
  



 
 

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Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines

Susan, do you think next Prophet will be a descendent of Abraham through Aghsán or Afnán lines? If the answer is yes, then how can we sure He/She is? Historically, Siyyid Kazim said the Qaim (the Báb) was of pure lineage, people can easy recognize it because of siyyids denomination. If the answer is no, I question: is it not promised to Abraham to be the seed of all Prophets? Hasan Elias <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió: Possibly from past lines. I dont think you would like, but we can do this for Afnán and Aghsán. [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: > From Adan to Shoghi Effendi, there is a continuous blood line, > that is why I ask about the impor! tance of "spiritual genes".Dear Hasan, It is not a blood line that can really be traced historically. Give a few hundred years and everyone is related to everyone else anyhow. warmest, Susan
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Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines

Possibly from past lines. I don’t think you would like, but we can do this for Afnán and Aghsán. [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: > From Adan to Shoghi Effendi, there is a continuous blood line, > that is why I ask about the impor!
tance of
"spiritual genes".Dear Hasan, It is not a blood line that can really be traced historically. Give a few hundred years and everyone is related to everyone else anyhow. warmest, Susan

Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines

> From Adan to Shoghi Effendi, there is a continuous blood line, 
> that is why I ask about the importance of "spiritual genes".

Dear Hasan, 

It is not a blood line that can really be traced historically. Give a 
few hundred years and everyone is related to everyone else anyhow. 

warmest, Susan 


 
 
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Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines

Maybe I'm exaggerated about the importance of genetic lines, but I would like to follow the Muhammad, the Báb and Bahá'u'lláh genetic lines. From Adan to Shoghi Effendi, there is a continuous blood line, that is why I ask about the importance of "spiritual genes". [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: A scholar said me that in Tablets > not yet translated, Bahá'u'lláh links Mustaghath and its number > 2001 with the numbers 9 and 19. I know great scholar Stephen > Lambden (http://www.hurqalya.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/BAHA'-ALLAH/L-> Khalil%20Shirazi.htm) explains about this issue, saying this could > refer to future Manifestations, but maybe you can resume it better > to us.Dear Hasan, I think both things are true. Khazeh has written some along these l!
ines as
well. > >> > It is fiction, but there is always short times of messianic > concealment. I think in one thousand there will be messianic > concealment, a distant descendant of Bahá'u'lláh could claim > Guardianship, and this could be that concealment! If this > descendant claim Guardianship in MORE than 1000 years, is legally > correct, then this "guardian" could be the Manifestation, or lead > us to the Manifestation. But I could be wrong, as Susan said: > "conjecture is conjecture".I know of at least one former member of the Universal House of Justice who is persuaded that the Guardianship will be restored when the next Manifestation appears. Like Brent, he believes the current Administrative Order will last for the next 500,000 years. But if that office were indeed restored, would its holder be a descendent of Baha'u'llah? Given the fact that all those descendents were Cov!
enant
breakers, that seems unlikely. warmest, Susan

Re: A Prophet before one thousand years?

>  Bahá'u'lláh forbids us to interpret the holy verse of the Aqdas 
> about 1000 or more years the next Coming.
>   
>  I wonder if this BADAH (the possibility of a Prophet before 1000 
> years) is broking that command.

Dear Hasan, 

Except what you are actually asking is not if the verse in question 
can be interpreted differently (which it cannot) but whether God can 
change His mind about this, which is theoretically possible but 
creates so many difficulties as to be inconceivable, in my view. 

warmest, Susan 


 
 
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Re: A Prophet before one thousand years?

A scholar said me that in Tablets 
> not yet translated, Bahá'u'lláh links Mustaghath and its number 
> 2001 with the numbers 9 and 19. I know great scholar Stephen 
> Lambden (http://www.hurqalya.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/BAHA'-ALLAH/L-
> Khalil%20Shirazi.htm) explains about this issue, saying this could 
> refer to future Manifestations, but maybe you can resume it better 
> to us.

Dear Hasan, 

I think both things are true. Khazeh has written some along these 
lines as well. 
>   
>>   
>  It is fiction, but there is always short times of messianic 
> concealment. I think in one thousand there will be messianic 
> concealment, a distant descendant of Bahá'u'lláh could claim 
> Guardianship, and this could be that concealment! If this 
> descendant claim Guardianship in MORE than 1000 years, is legally 
> correct, then this "guardian" could be the Manifestation, or lead 
> us to the Manifestation. But I could be wrong, as Susan said: 
> "conjecture is conjecture".

I know of at least one former member of the Universal House of Justice 
who is persuaded that the Guardianship will be restored when the next 
Manifestation appears. Like Brent, he believes the current 
Administrative Order will last for the next 500,000 years. But if that 
office were indeed restored, would its holder be a descendent of 
Baha'u'llah? Given the fact that all those descendents were Covenant 
breakers, that seems unlikely. 

warmest, Susan 


 
 
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Re: A Prophet before one thousand years?

Dear Susan, Bahá'u'lláh forbids us to interpret the holy verse of the Aqdas about 1000 or more years the next Coming. I wonder if this BADAH (the possibility of a Prophet before 1000 years) is broking that command. [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: > I am curious about the purpose of discussing this topic, given > that none of us will be around in 900 years to see what happens.Dear Tim, Well, it didn't start with speculation about what would happen in a thousand years. It started with Hasan's questions as to whether, given the doctrine of badaa, it wasn't possible for there to be another Manifestation before then. Of course, the Writings are quite clear on this topic, yet badaa presumes a changing of divine Will so Hasan's questi!
on is
valid. The problem is, we would still be covententally bound not to follow any such claimant. warmest, Susan

Re: A Prophet before one thousand years?

  Hey David, this letter is splendid, thanks for quoting it here; you saved much much time quoting it!!!     I hope many of us follow this noble action, quoting letters we receive from the House with absolute detachment.     As to the letter, uhm... I have to read it, my english is not so good.     David Bowie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió:  Sunday, January 29, 2006, 11 Sultán 162 BEIn 1997 a friend of mine wrote to the House of Justice about the recognition (or not) of the next Manifestation. He received this reply.DavidMESSAGE:The Universal House of Justice has received your email message of 24 May 1997 inquiring about the eventual recognition of t!
 he next
 Manifestation of God by the Universal House of Justice. Regarding your request to be provided with a copy of a particular letter from the House of Justice to an individual believer in which this matter was addressed, regrettably we were not able to determine which of several letters written on this subject by the House of Justice, or by the Department of the Secretariat on behalf of the House of Justice, you were referring to. One such letter, which encompasses the contents of the others, is excerpted below.With reference to infallibility, you quote from "Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh" that "trials and tribulations have, from time immemorial, been the lot of the chosen Ones of God...", and express concern that this implies that the Universal House of Justice will not recognize the next Manifestation of God.There are several statements in the Sacred Scriptures of our Faith which !
 are
 related to this general subject, and one in particular is found in "The Dispensation of Bahá'u'lláh", ("The World Order of Bahá'u'lláh", p. 117) as follows: "My fears are for Him Who will be sent down unto you after Me Him Who will be invested with great sovereignty and mighty dominion". When a National Assembly wrote to the Guardian, asking about this reference, the following reply was sent on his behalf."...this refers to the Manifestation Who is to come after a thousand or more years, Who like all previous Messengers of God will be subjected to persecutions, but will eventually triumph over them. For men of ill will have been and will always continue to be in this world, unless mankind reaches a state of complete and absolute perfection a condition which is not only improbable but actually impossible to attain."As you see, the persecutions to which the next Manifestation will be subjected!
  will be
 carried out, according to the above statement, by "men of ill will" who, alas, "will continue to be in this world". There is nothing in the Writings to support the view that the opposition or persecution will be instigated or inflicted by the Universal House of Justice.You are aware, of course, that one of the reasons for the appearance of a new Manifestation of God is to bring forth a spiritual renewal, as the former Dispensation would have passed through its stages of growth and reached its zenith. You can be sure that the Supreme Institution of the Faith, "under the care and protection of the Abhá Beauty, under the shelter and unerring guidance of His Holiness, the Exalted One", will exert every effort to recognize, when the time is ripe, the reality of the new Manifestation, and lead men to Him. How the majority of the people at that time will respond is a truth locked up in the treasury of God's
 knowledge.We trust that this information will aid in your understanding of this subject.Department of the Secretariat>The quotes the Guardian gathered in the Dispensation state as explicitly as>any subject in the Baha'i Writings that it will be not less than 1000 years>before the next Manifestation. The Covenant, unlike other subjects in the>Faith (like the mystical teachings) are not hidden and waiting to be>discovered. They are express. The Covenant is absolutely crystal-clear, in>explicit verses. Not only Baha'u'llah's written Covenant to turn to the>Master; and the Master's Covenant to turn to the House and the Guardian; but>in addition Baha'u'llah's Covenant regarding the appearance of the next>Manifestation. The thousand years could not be more explicit. (WOB 132)>>Furthermore:>>Whosoever interpreteth this verse otherwise than its obvious meaning is>de!
 prived of
 the Spirit of God and of His mercy which encompasseth all>created things.> (Baha'u'llah: The Kitab-i-Aqdas, Page: 32)>The information contained in this e-mail and any >attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the >Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is >intended to be confidential and for the use of >only the individual or entity named above. The >information may be protected by federal and >state privacy and disclosures acts or other >legal rules. If the reader of this message is >not the intended recipient, you are notified >that retention, dissemination, distribution or >copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. >If you have received this e-mail in error please >imme

Re: A Prophet before one thousand years?

> I am curious about  the purpose of discussing this topic, given 
> that none of us will be around in 900 years to see what happens.

Dear Tim, 

Well, it didn't start with speculation about what would happen in a 
thousand years. It started with Hasan's questions as to whether, given 
the doctrine of badaa, it wasn't possible for there to be another 
Manifestation before then. Of course, the Writings are quite clear on 
this topic, yet badaa presumes a changing of divine Will so Hasan's 
question is valid. The problem is, we would still be covententally 
bound not to follow any such claimant. 

warmest, Susan 


 
 
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Re: A Prophet before one thousand years?

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Or peharps 1511 or 2001. ;-} /// Hey Susan, good point, most of Shaykhs and Azalis (about Ghiyath 1511) confine the interpret!
ation of
their respective messianic prophecies into intrinsic numerological tricks to reject the Báb and Bahá’u’lláh respectively. A scholar said me that in Tablets not yet translated, Bahá’u’lláh links Mustaghath and its number 2001 with the numbers 9 and 19. I know great scholar Stephen Lambden (http://www.hurqalya.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/BAHA'-ALLAH/L-Khalil%20Shirazi.htm) explains about this issue, saying this could refer to future Manifestations, but maybe you can resume it better to us. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > The thing is that it is my understanding that the Guardian said > that there > will always be a Universal House of Justice. To my knowle!
dge he
didn't say that in any of his writings. And as far as his pilgrim's notes go, they presumed that the day would not be followed by night because a future Guardian could not fail to recognize the next Manifestation! /// It is fiction, but there is always short times of messianic concealment. I think in one thousand there will be messianic concealment, a distant descendant of Bahá’u’lláh could claim Guardianship, and this could be that concealment! If this descendant claim Guardianship in MORE than 1000 years, is legally correct, then this “guardian” could be the Manifestation, or lead us to the Manifestation. But I could be wrong, as Susan said: “conjecture is conjecture”. Please, see this quote of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá: "My purpose is this, that ere the expiration of a thousand years, no one has the right to utter a single word, even to claim the station of Guardianship. "The Most Holy Book is the Book to which all peoples shall refer, and in it the Laws of God have been revealed. Laws not mentioned in the Book should be referred to the decision of the Universal House of Justice..." (Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 313)

Re: A Prophet before one thousand years?

2006-01-29 Thread David Bowie


Sunday, January 29, 2006, 11 Sultán 162 BE

In 1997 a friend of mine wrote to the House of 
Justice about the recognition (or not) of the 
next Manifestation.  He received this reply.


David


MESSAGE:

The Universal House of Justice has received your 
email message of 24 May 1997 inquiring about the 
eventual recognition of the next Manifestation of 
God by the Universal House of Justice.  Regarding 
your request to be provided with a copy of a 
particular letter from the House of Justice to an 
individual believer in which this matter was 
addressed, regrettably we were not able to 
determine which of several letters written on 
this subject by the House of Justice, or by the 
Department of the Secretariat on behalf of the 
House of Justice, you were referring to.  One 
such letter, which encompasses the contents of the others, is excerpted below.


With reference to infallibility, you quote from 
"Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh" that 
"trials and tribulations have, from time 
immemorial, been the lot of the chosen Ones of 
God...", and express concern that this implies 
that the Universal House of Justice will not 
recognize the next Manifestation of God.


There are several statements in the Sacred 
Scriptures of our Faith which are related to this 
general subject, and one in particular is found 
in "The Dispensation of Bahá'u'lláh", ("The World 
Order of Bahá'u'lláh", p. 117) as follows: "My 
fears are for Him Who will be sent down unto you 
after Me Him Who will be invested with great 
sovereignty and mighty dominion".  When a 
National Assembly wrote to the Guardian, asking 
about this reference, the following reply was sent on his behalf.


"...this refers to the Manifestation Who is to 
come after a thousand or more years, Who like all 
previous Messengers of God will be subjected to 
persecutions, but will eventually triumph over 
them.  For men of ill will have been and will 
always continue to be in this world, unless 
mankind reaches a state of complete and absolute 
perfection a condition which is not only 
improbable but actually impossible to attain."


As you see, the persecutions to which the next 
Manifestation will be subjected will be carried 
out, according to the above statement, by "men of 
ill will" who, alas, "will continue to be in this 
world".  There is nothing in the Writings to 
support the view that the opposition or 
persecution will be instigated or inflicted by the Universal House of Justice.


You are aware, of course, that one of the reasons 
for the appearance of a new Manifestation of God 
is to bring forth a spiritual renewal, as the 
former Dispensation would have passed through its 
stages of growth and reached its zenith.  You can 
be sure that the Supreme Institution of the 
Faith, "under the care and protection of the Abhá 
Beauty, under the shelter and unerring guidance 
of His Holiness, the Exalted One", will exert 
every effort to recognize, when the time is ripe, 
the reality of the new Manifestation, and lead 
men to Him.  How the majority of the people at 
that time will respond is a truth locked up in the treasury of God's knowledge.


We trust that this information will aid in your understanding of this subject.

Department of the Secretariat


The quotes the Guardian gathered in the Dispensation state as explicitly as
any subject in the Baha'i Writings that it will be not less than 1000 years
before the next Manifestation.  The Covenant, unlike other subjects in the
Faith (like the mystical teachings) are not hidden and waiting to be
discovered.  They are express.  The Covenant is absolutely crystal-clear, in
explicit verses.  Not only Baha'u'llah's written Covenant to turn to the
Master; and the Master's Covenant to turn to the House and the Guardian; but
in addition Baha'u'llah's Covenant regarding the appearance of the next
Manifestation.  The thousand years could not be more explicit. (WOB 132)

Furthermore:

Whosoever interpreteth this verse otherwise than its obvious meaning is
deprived of the Spirit of God and of His mercy which encompasseth all
created things.
 (Baha'u'llah:  The Kitab-i-Aqdas, Page: 32)








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Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is 
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that retention, dissemination, distribution or 
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If you have received this e-mail in error please 
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Re: A Prophet before one thousand years?

Tim Nolan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió: I am curious about the purpose of discussing this topic, given that none of us will be around in 900 years to see what happens. Hi Tim, To talk about Four and Seven Valleys, doesn’t actually means that any of us could reach the last valleys? (At least not me!!!) Or Church-State issue, or future International Tribunal, Commonwealth, Most Great Peace, etc., etc. Anyway, I understand your point, but we can teach our future generations to be prepared in exactly 1000 years counting from the Blessed Beauty’s Revelation which according to our Writing had place in the Black Pit (1852-53). Also, this topic is not completely off-time, why? Because time pass quickly! lol. Because it is a part of the Covenant, my understanding of “that not followed by night” is that though “winter” doesn’t have a place in!
this
Day, that could be exactly the reason people would think they don’t need a Prophet and therefore will reject Him/Her. Let’s take a look to these quotes: http://bahai-library.com/compilations/covenant.html About the importance of acceptance the Prophets: The Lord of the universe hath never raised up a prophet nor hath He sent down a Book unless He hath established His covenant with all men, calling for their acceptance of the next Revelation and of the next Book; inasmuch as the outpourings of His bounty are ceaseless and without limit. ("Selections from the Writings of the Báb", [rev. ed.] (Haifa: Bahá'í World Centre, 1982), p. 87) Abraham, on Him be peace, made a covenant concerning Moses and gave the glad-tidings of His coming. Moses made a covenant concerning the promised Christ, and announced the good news of His advent to the world. Christ made a covenant concerning the Paraclete and gave the tidings of His coming. The Prophet Muhammad made a covenant concerning the Báb, and the Báb was the One promised by Muhammad, for Muhammad gave the tidings of His coming. The Báb made a Covenant concerning the Blessed Beauty, Bahá'u'lláh, and gave the
glad-tidings of His coming for the Blessed Beauty was the One promised by the Báb. Bahá'u'lláh made a covenant concerning a Promised One Who will become manifest after one thousand or thousands of years. That Manifestation is Bahá'u'lláh's Promised One, and will appear after a thousand or thousands of years. He, moreover, with His Supreme Pen, entered into a great Covenant and Testament with all the Bahá'ís whereby they were all commanded to follow the Centre of the Covenant after His ascension, and depart, not even to a hair's breadth, from obeying Him. ('Abdu'l-Bahá, from a Tablet - translated from the Persian, published in "Bahá'í World Faith" (Wilmette: Bahá'í Publishing Trust, 1976), p. About the next Prophet: Verily God will raise up Him Whom God shall make manifest, and after Him Whomsoever He willeth, even as He hath raised up prophets before the Point of the Bayán. He in truth hath power over all things. ("Selections from the Writings of the Báb", p. 144) Concerning the Manifestations that will come down in the future "in the shadows of the clouds," know, verily, that in so far as their relation to the Source of their inspiration is concerned, they are under the shadow of the Ancient Beauty. In their relation, however, to the age in which they appear, each and every one of them "doeth whatsoever He willeth." ('Abdu'l-Bahá, cited in "The World Order of Bahá'u'lláh - Selected Letters", p. 167)

Re: A Prophet before one thousand years?

2006-01-29 Thread Tim Nolan

I am curious about the purpose of discussing this topic, given that none of us will be around in 900 years to see what happens. If in a discussion, someone raises the possibility that the House of Justice might lose its infallibility after the thousand years have passed, how does that thought affect our attitude toward the Universal House of Justice now? In 90 years or less, everyone now on this email list will have left this world, therefore, what is the reason for discussing this? We will never know the answer, except perhape from the next worlds. Tim
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Re: A Prophet before one thousand years?

2006-01-29 Thread Tim Nolan

>the Covenant was also crystal clear about a continuing line of Guardians, so I don't think that really addresses Hasan's question about badaa. < The Will and Testament is clear about how future Guardians were to be chosen, but that document does not guarantee that there will always be a living Guardian. The Will also doesn't guarantee there will always be a Universal House of Justice. However, even if that institution ceased to exist, for some reason, the NSA's of the world could elect another one. Because of that, I think it's likely we will always have a Universal House of Justice, at least until the next Manifestation comes. Tim
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Re: A Prophet before one thousand years?

2006-01-28 Thread smaneck

The Covenant is absolutely crystal-
> clear, in 
> explicit verses.  Not only Baha'u'llah's written Covenant to turn 
> to the 
> Master; and the Master's Covenant to turn to the House and the 
> Guardian; but 
> in addition Baha'u'llah's Covenant regarding the appearance of the 
> next 
> Manifestation.  The thousand years could not be more explicit. 
> (WOB 132)

Dear Brent, 

I agree. However, the Covenant was also crystal clear about a 
continuing line of Guardians, so I don't think that really addresses 
Hasan's question about badaa. 

> It should also be noted that the guidance is not that a 
> Manifestation will 
> come in a thousand years.  We do not know the time; only that it 
> will be 
> "not less" than a thousand years.  Maybe it will be five or ten 
> thousand 
> years.

Or peharps 1511 or 2001. ;-}

> 
> The Master promised in His Will that both Manifestations guide the 
> House of 
> Justice.  I don't think the Master is saying that the 
> Manifestations will 
> stop guiding it in 1000 years.
  I think this is another way of His 
> saying 
> that when the new Manifestation comes, He or She will have all 
> power, and 
> the reference to the thousand years is not to a time, but to an 
> event, the 
> coming of the new Manifestation, whenever it occurs. 

Yes, I agree. It refers to an event. But it nonetheless seem from what 
Abdu'l-Baha said that the House of Justice will no longer have 
absolute authority one She appears: 

"The substance is, that prior to the completion of a thousand years, 
no individual may presume to breathe a word. All must consider 
themselves to be of the order of subjects, submissive and obedient to 
the commandments of God and the laws of the House of Justice. Should 
any deviate by so much as a needle's point from the decrees of the 
Universal House of Justice, or falter in his compliance therewith, 
then is he of the outcast and rejected."

 The House 
> itself says 
> in its Constitution that it is the Writings themselves that are 
> guaranteed 
> authority until the next Manifestation; and by implication, the 
> same is true 
> of the House.

I don't think anyone was implying anything else. 


> 
> The thing is that it is my understanding that the Guardian said 
> that there 
> will always be a Universal House of Justice.

To my knowledge he didn't say that in any of his writings. And as far 
as his pilgrim's notes go, they presumed that the day would not be 
followed by night because a future Guardian could not fail to 
recognize the next Manifestation! 


  This is not a 
> temporary 
> measure set up solely during the Dispensation of Baha'u'llah; but 
> rather, a 
> permanent feature in the world, a permanent part of the 
> "machinery" brought 
> by Baha'u'llah for the entire future of  the world:
> 
> "After Bahá'u'lláh many Prophets will, no doubt, appear, but they 
> will be 
> all under His shadow. Although they may abrogate the laws of the 
> Dispensation, in accordance with the needs and requirements of the 
> age in 
> which they appear, they nevertheless draw their spiritual force 
> from this 
> mighty Revelation. 

Brent, the above passage says nothing about the Universal House of 
Justice being a permanant feature. 

 Whatever progress may be 
> achieved in the 
> later ages-after the unification of the whole human race is 
> achieved -- will 
> be but improvements in the machinery of the world. For the 
> machinery itself 
> has already been created by Bahá'u'lláh. 

But the Guardian doesn't say the 'machinery' is the House of Justice. 

So our conjectures that the 
> new 
> Prophet would appear, and at His or Her appearance the rug is 
> automatically 
> pulled out from under the House of Justice, which is then blind to 
> the new 
> Manifestation -- is sheer conjecture based more on doubt than on 
> faith.  

Conjecture is conjecture whether it is based on faith or doubt. And it 
strikes me that your thesis is just as much conjecture as any other. 

Is 
> not the purpose of God to bring all people under the pale of His 
> Faith? 

What's the relevance of that statement? 

 Has 
> God not, for the first time, left the Cause in divinely-guided 
> human hands? 
> Why do we assume even the possibility that the spirit animating 
> the House 
> would be cut off?

I wouldn't assume one way or the other. 

I hope this doesn't offend you, Brent, but your argument bears an 
eerie resemblance to that of the Remeyites who insist that "how can 
there *not* be a continuing line of Guardians?" 

As history has shown, stuff happens. 

warmest, Susan 


 
 
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Re: A Prophet before one thousand years?

2006-01-28 Thread Dean Betts

The quotes the Guardian gathered in the Dispensation state as explicitly as
any subject in the Baha'i Writings that it will be not less than 1000 years
before the next Manifestation.  The Covenant, unlike other subjects in the
Faith (like the mystical teachings) are not hidden and waiting to be
discovered.  They are express.  The Covenant is absolutely crystal-clear, in
explicit verses.  Not only Baha'u'llah's written Covenant to turn to the
Master; and the Master's Covenant to turn to the House and the Guardian; but
in addition Baha'u'llah's Covenant regarding the appearance of the next
Manifestation.  The thousand years could not be more explicit. (WOB 132)

Furthermore:

Whosoever interpreteth this verse otherwise than its obvious meaning is
deprived of the Spirit of God and of His mercy which encompasseth all
created things.
 (Baha'u'llah:  The Kitab-i-Aqdas, Page: 32)






 
 
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A Prophet before one thousand years?

2006-01-28 Thread Brent Poirier Attorney at Law

The quotes the Guardian gathered in the Dispensation state as explicitly as 
any subject in the Baha'i Writings that it will be not less than 1000 years 
before the next Manifestation.  The Covenant, unlike other subjects in the 
Faith (like the mystical teachings) are not hidden and waiting to be 
discovered.  They are express.  The Covenant is absolutely crystal-clear, in 
explicit verses.  Not only Baha'u'llah's written Covenant to turn to the 
Master; and the Master's Covenant to turn to the House and the Guardian; but 
in addition Baha'u'llah's Covenant regarding the appearance of the next 
Manifestation.  The thousand years could not be more explicit. (WOB 132)


It should also be noted that the guidance is not that a Manifestation will 
come in a thousand years.  We do not know the time; only that it will be 
"not less" than a thousand years.  Maybe it will be five or ten thousand 
years.


"Maybe not all will follow it because they know the guidance will be there 
"until" the next Revelation, if I'm not wrong after that event, the House 
will be fallible. But, as the quote indicates the unity of followers is 
assured.">>



"I'm not sure if the Universal House of Justice would maintain its

authority once the next Manifestation appears. When Abdu'l-Baha was
asked about the meaning of "whoso layeth a claim to a revelation
direct from God,' He answered that for the next thousand years no one
should presume to breathe a word against the House of Justice. Might
this open up all kinds of possibilities as to what happens after those
thousand years?">>

The Master promised in His Will that both Manifestations guide the House of 
Justice.  I don't think the Master is saying that the Manifestations will 
stop guiding it in 1000 years.  I think this is another way of His saying 
that when the new Manifestation comes, He or She will have all power, and 
the reference to the thousand years is not to a time, but to an event, the 
coming of the new Manifestation, whenever it occurs.  The House itself says 
in its Constitution that it is the Writings themselves that are guaranteed 
authority until the next Manifestation; and by implication, the same is true 
of the House.


"The provenance, the authority, the duties, the sphere of action of the 
Universal House of Justice all derive from the revealed Word of Bahá'u'lláh 
. . .  The authority of these Texts is absolute and immutable until such 
time as Almighty God shall reveal His new Manifestation to Whom will belong 
all authority and power."  (The Universal House of Justice, The Constitution 
of The Universal House of Justice, p. 4)


The thing is that it is my understanding that the Guardian said that there 
will always be a Universal House of Justice.  This is not a temporary 
measure set up solely during the Dispensation of Baha'u'llah; but rather, a 
permanent feature in the world, a permanent part of the "machinery" brought 
by Baha'u'llah for the entire future of  the world:


"After Bahá'u'lláh many Prophets will, no doubt, appear, but they will be 
all under His shadow. Although they may abrogate the laws of the 
Dispensation, in accordance with the needs and requirements of the age in 
which they appear, they nevertheless draw their spiritual force from this 
mighty Revelation. The Faith of Bahá'u'lláh constitutes, indeed, the stage 
of maturity in the development of mankind. His appearance has released such 
spiritual forces which will continue to animate, for many long years to 
come, the world in its development. Whatever progress may be achieved in the 
later ages-after the unification of the whole human race is achieved -- will 
be but improvements in the machinery of the world. For the machinery itself 
has already been created by Bahá'u'lláh. The task of continually improving 
and perfecting this machinery is one which later Prophets will be called 
upon to achieve. They will move and work within the orbit of Bahá'í cycle." 
(From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer 
dated November 14, 1935; Lights of Guidance, p. 473, #1561; and Directives 
from the Guardian, p. 61, #164)


We have seen how the Universal Manifestation treats the laws of former 
Dispensations, in the Aqdas.  We have not yet seen how manifestations lesser 
in rank than a Universal Manifestation, will relate to the laws of a 
Universal Manifestation, when They come after Him.  Maybe they will treat 
Baha'u'llah's laws with a greater degree of deference, than Baha'u'llah 
treated the laws of Muhammad and the Bab and the earlier Prophets.


We have also never seen a situation where a Prophet appeared in the world at 
a time when an infallibly-guided person or body from the previous 
Dispensation was still in the world.  So our conjectures that the new 
Prophet would appear, and at His or Her appearance the rug is automatically 
pulled out from under the House of Justice, which is then blind to the new 
Manifestation -- is sheer conjecture based more

Re: badaa: a Prophet before one thousand years?

2006-01-28 Thread smaneck

> 
> Is Badaa related Bidaa (Inovation)? Just curious.

Dear Rich, 

They have a slightly different root. 

warmest, Susan 


 
 
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Re: badaa: a Prophet before one thousand years?

2006-01-28 Thread Rich Ater

*/[EMAIL PROTECTED] /* escribió:

...badaa signifies a change in the Divine Will. So theoretically
it would be possible. But given the strong language Baha'u'llah
used in that regard, I think it about as likely as God changing
the law of gravity (which theoretically He *could* do as well.)

Susan & others,

Is Badaa related Bidaa (Inovation)? Just curious.

Rich

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Re: badaa: a Prophet before one thousand years?

Dear Susan, 1000 B.E. is only 2844 AD, the Aqdas's notes says we have to count from Islamic year nine = 15 October 1852 which match the period when Bahá'u'lláh was at Siyah-Chal. For solar years is from 15 October 2852 or from Ramadan 10th 2299 AH. Convert dates here: http://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/calendar/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: my logic > sense say me that people will have many problems in one thousand > years (about this expectation), I call it the "year nine" (because > nearness 1009 B.E).I would presume we should be ready anytime after 1000 B.E. > > My ignorance says that it will be very difficult to make > compatible lunar (Quran) with solar (Bayan) calendars. That could > be a big trouble. One thousand years=Ok, but since when? And, > according to what calendar?! I think we would do well to be ready at the earliest date possible.

Re: badaa: a Prophet before one thousand years?

Dear Susan don’t you think I believe women can't do the job. The women in Bahá'í Faith are the example of excellence, for instance we had Bahíyyih Khanúm who was at the headship of the Guardian’s affairs for almost a year (a perfect job!). [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: Religious history is about the past. We are talking about the future.

Re: badaa: a Prophet before one thousand years?







Maybe not all will follow it because they know the guidance will be there "until" the next Revelation, if I'm not wrong after that event, the House will be fallible. But, as the quote indicates the unity of followers is assured.     All agree in that time it won’t be easy for people to recognize next Prophet, so another real problem could be the authority of the House in recognizes the Manifestation [if the House has the faculty to face the problem of reconnaissance of the next Prophet when He reveal to the humankind (worse with an aging guidance)]. My poor knowledge says that this problem could be easier solved by a living Guardian (maybe for that reason the Aghsán line was interrupted).  Don Calkins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió: The guidance will be there (Universal House of Justice), but that doesn't mean we'll follow it. 



 
 

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Re: badaa: a Prophet before one thousand years?

> The guidance will be there (Universal House of Justice), but that 
> doesn't mean we'll follow it

Dear Don, 

I'm not sure if the Universal House of Justice would maintain its 
authority once the next Manifestation appears. When Abdu'l-Baha was 
asked about the meaning of "whoso layeth a claim to a revelation 
direct from God,' He answered that for the next thousand years no one 
should presume to breathe a word against the House of Justice. Might 
this open up all kinds of possibilities as to what happens after those 
thousand years? 

warmest, Susan 


 
 
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Re: badaa: a Prophet before one thousand years?

I thought it would make my point. ;-}

> What a perfect example! ;-)
> 
> Jeanine
> 
> Hasan Elias wrote:
> 
> > Dear Susan, you call "She" with capital S! uhmmm... you hope 
> next 
> > Prophet be a woman?

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Re: badaa: a Prophet before one thousand years?

> Dear Susan, you call "She" with capital S! uhmmm... you hope next 
> Prophet be a woman?

LOL. Well, it would certainly explain the next Manifestation's 
suffering! 

>   
>  "She" or "He" whatever, I have no problems with it (but 
> according to religious history, it could be not a woman)

Religious history is about the past. We are talking about the future. 


 my logic 
> sense say me that people will have many problems in one thousand 
> years (about this expectation), I call it the "year nine" (because 
> nearness 1009 B.E).

I would presume we should be ready anytime after 1000 B.E. 

 Do you imagine all sort of people claiming to 
> be this Prophet?

Probably. 
>   
>  My ignorance says that it will be very difficult to make 
> compatible lunar (Quran) with solar (Bayan) calendars. That could 
> be a big trouble. One thousand years=Ok, but since when? And, 
> according to what calendar?! 

I think we would do well to be ready at the earliest date possible. 

warmest, Susan  


 
 
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Re: badaa: a Prophet before one thousand years?

2006-01-27 Thread Don Calkins


At 10:22 PM -0500 1/27/06, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



Then, too, this is the "day that shall not be followed by night."  





Yeah, but as theologian Nels Ferre has suggested, when the Sun gets 
too bright, we put up umbrellas.


The guidance will be there (Universal House of Justice), but that 
doesn't mean we'll follow it.


Don C

--
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He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not.





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Re: badaa: a Prophet before one thousand years?

2006-01-27 Thread Gata

In all past dispensations (the prophetic cycle), there were many signs, 
prophecies, indications, etc., concerning the One to come at the time of 
the end, including where and how He would appear.  He has come.  I 
have found  very little the Writings concerning the One follow in 
not less than one thousand years, or thousands of years, with the exception 
of Baha'u'llah's statement regarding "Him Who will be sent down unto you after 
Me."  

Shoghi Effendi explains the meaning of the quotation as follows:

"As to the meaning of the quotation. 'My fears are for Him Who will be sent 
down unto you after Me'. this refers to the Manifestation Who is to come after a 
thousand or more years, Who like all previous Messengers of God will be 
subjected to persecutions, but will eventually triumph over them. For men of 
ill-will have been and will always continue to be in this world, unless mankind 
reaches a state of complete and absolute perfection -- a condition which is not 
only improbable but actually impossible to attain. The fundamental difference, 
however, between this Dispensation and all previous ones is this, that in this 
Revelation the possibility of permanent schism between the followers of the 
Prophet has been prevented through the direct and explicit instructions 
providing for the necessary instruments designed to maintain the organic unity 
of the body of the faithful."  

(From letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to the National Spiritual 
Assembly of the United States and Canada, December 1 1934, Bahá'í News. No. 89. 
p. 1 January 1935) (Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 474)

Then, too, this is the "day that shall not be followed by 
night."  It is also explained in the Writings that although the 
Manifestations of God in the future shall have full authority to instruct 
mankind as He (or She) wills, They will all be under the shadow of 
Baha'u'llah for some 500,000 years, the duration of the Baha'i 
Cycle.  That's a very long time for us mortals.  :)

Just my two cents.

Shirley

In a message dated 1/27/2006 7:17:13 PM US Mountain Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
At 4:27 
  PM -0600 1/27/06, Hasan Elias wrote:>By the light of the surprising 
  clarity of this >prophecy, then: what would be the difficulty for 
  >people (most of them bahá'ís) in the year 
  >2852-53?>In general terms, it will be just like 
  previous times - people, including 'good Baha'is', will have decided 
  what The Return will be like.  When the Manifestation does not 
  conform to these conceptions, He will be rejected.  Once again, 
  God is not going to take a pubic opinion poll first.  As a great 
  American philosopher would say, "It's deja vu all over again."Don 
  C

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Re: badaa: a Prophet before one thousand years?

2006-01-27 Thread Don Calkins


At 4:27 PM -0600 1/27/06, Hasan Elias wrote:
By the light of the surprising clarity of this 
prophecy, then: what would be the difficulty for 
people (most of them bahá'ís) in the year 
2852-53?




In general terms, it will be just like previous 
times - people, including 'good Baha'is', will 
have decided what The Return will be like.  When 
the Manifestation does not conform to these 
conceptions, He will be rejected.  Once again, 
God is not going to take a pubic opinion poll 
first.  As a great American philosopher would 
say, "It's deja vu all over again."


Don C

--
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Re: badaa: a Prophet before one thousand years?

2006-01-27 Thread Jeanine H.





What a perfect example! ;-)

Jeanine

Hasan Elias wrote:

  
  
  
  
   
  Dear Susan, you call "She" with
capital S! uhmmm... you hope next Prophet be a woman?
   
   
   
  "She" or "He" whatever, I have no
problems with it (but according to religious history, it could be not a
woman)...>>>
  
  
  

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
escribió:

  
   
  >
Saying that a prophet will not appear until the passing of a thousand 
years is not the same as saying that's when She will appear. As for 
what difficulties She might have, I can think of a number of reasons 
She might be reje! cted, can't you? 

warmest, Susan 


  
  
  
   
  
  
  
   
   
  
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Re: badaa: a Prophet before one thousand years?

Dear Susan, you call "She" with capital S! uhmmm... you hope next Prophet be a woman? "She" or "He" whatever, I have no problems with it (but according to religious history, it could be not a woman) my logic sense say me that people will have many problems in one thousand years (about this expectation), I call it the "year nine" (because nearness 1009 B.E). Do you imagine all sort of people claiming to be this
Prophet? My ignorance says that it will be very difficult to make compatible lunar (Quran) with solar (Bayan) calendars. That could be a big trouble. One thousand years=Ok, but since when? And, according to what calendar?! [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: >Saying that a prophet will not appear until the passing of a thousand years is not the same as saying that's when She will appear. As for what difficulties She might have, I can think of a number of reasons She might be reje!
cted,
can't you? warmest, Susan

Re: badaa: a Prophet before one thousand years?

> They may not have said this publicly, but multiple Hands, 
> including 
> Ruhiyyih Khanum, seem to have accepted this explanation, and I 
> believe 
> some Persian Bahais were aware of this, but I cannot cite any 
> Persian 
> sources.  

Dear Marleen, 

Although we have no documentation on this it seems likely that they 
would have since this principle was already understood in Shi'ite-Babi 
theology. But I don't think there was ever a vote on this as Remey 
alleges. It just isn't the kind of thing you vote on. 

Perhaps someone more knowledgeable about Persian sources 
> can 
> comment. 

If you look back in the archives (which I'm not sure how to access 
anymore) Khazeh had made a rather extensive post on this. 

 "Is it "badaa" with two a's or "bada" with one a?"

I've sometimes seen it spelt badah. It's got kind of a tricky root. 

warmest, Susan 




 
 
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Re: badaa: a Prophet before one thousand years?

>  So far I know the House said nothing about badaa (they said it 
> was legally impossible to them designate another Guardian, 
> according to 'Abdu'l-Bahá's Will and their own powers).

That's correct. I personally think that the end of the line of living 
Guardians was a case of Badaa just as Muhammad Ali not being the 
successor of Abdu'l-Baha might fall under that category as well. 
Still, there has never been any official declaration to my knowledge 
calling these things badaa. 

warmest, Susan 


 
 
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Re: badaa: a Prophet before one thousand years?

> By the light of the surprising clarity of this prophecy, then: 
> what would be the difficulty for people (most of them bahá'ís) in 
> the year 2852-53? In another quote Bahá'u'lláh lamented about the 
> next Prophet's sufferings.

Dear Hasan, 

Saying that a prophet will not appear until the passing of a thousand 
years is not the same as saying that's when She will appear. As for 
what difficulties She might have, I can think of a number of reasons 
She might be rejected, can't you? 

warmest, Susan 


 
 
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Re: badaa: a Prophet before one thousand years?

2006-01-27 Thread Richard H. Gravelly

After prayerful and careful study of the Holy Texts bearing upon the
question of the appointment of the successor to Shoghi Effendi as Guardian
of the Cause of God, and after prolonged consultation which included
consideration of the views of the Hands of the Cause of God residing in the
Holy Land, the Universal House of Justice finds that there is no way to
appoint or to legislate to make it possible to appoint a second Guardian to
succeed Shoghi Effendi.

(The Universal House of Justice, from a letter dated 6 October 1963,
published in "Wellspring of Guidance: Messages 1963-1968, p. 11)



 (Compilations, The Compilation of Compilations vol. I, p. 123)


- Original Message -
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Baha'i Studies" 
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 1:53 PM
Subject: Re: badaa: a Prophet before one thousand years?


> Yes, I believe this is the explanation the Hands gave for the
> ending of
> the Guardianship.  Marleen

Dear Marleen,

Actually they never did, though that would have been a logical
explanation. The Remeyites claim that the Hands declared the
Guardianship badaa, but they were not in the position to do so and
never issued any document to that effect. I'm sure it came up in their
consultations, however. It was the Universal House of Justice that
made the ruling that there could not be any more Guardians and they
too did not use the word badaa.

warmest, Susan




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Re: badaa: a Prophet before one thousand years?

2006-01-27 Thread M Chase

They may not have said this publicly, but multiple Hands, including
Ruhiyyih Khanum, seem to have accepted this explanation, and I believe
some Persian Bahais were aware of this, but I cannot cite any Persian
sources. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable about Persian sources can
comment. Is it "badaa" with two a's or "bada" with one a? Marleen

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Actually they never did, though that would have been a logical
explanation. The Remeyites claim that the Hands declared the
Guardianship badaa, but they were not in the position to do so and
never issued any document to that effect. I'm sure it came up in their
consultations, however. It was the Universal House of Justice that
made the ruling that there could not be any more Guardians and they
too did not use the word badaa.

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Re: badaa: a Prophet before one thousand years?







By the light of the surprising clarity of this prophecy, then: what would be the difficulty for people (most of them bahá'ís) in the year 2852-53? In another quote Bahá'u'lláh lamented about the next Prophet's sufferings.     [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió:...badaa signifies a change in the Divine Will. So theoretically it would be possible. But given the strong language Baha'u'llah used in that regard, I think it about as likely as God changing the law of gravity (which theoretically He *could* do as well.)    



 
 

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Re: badaa: a Prophet before one thousand years?

2006-01-27 Thread Richard H. Gravelly

I hope that the Baha'is of the time will accept Him whenever He appears.

Richard.


I suppose you could say it was possible, but then we could not be held
responsible for failing to follow Him given the fact that we were told
to regard anyone who appeared before that time as a lying imposter.

warmest, Susan




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Re: badaa: a Prophet before one thousand years?

Hey Susan, it seems a real time chat, one message per minute? lol. So far I know the House said nothing about badaa (they said it was legally impossible to them designate another Guardian, according to 'Abdu'l-Bahá's Will and their own powers). According to one book it was a "statute of special provision", hasan [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: > Yes, I believe this is the explanation the Hands gave for the > ending of > the Guardianship. MarleenDear Marleen, Actually they never did, though that would have been a logical explanation. The Remeyites claim that the Hands declared the Guardianship badaa, but they were not in !
the
position to do so and never issued any document to that effect. I'm sure it came up in their consultations, however. It was the Universal House of Justice that made the ruling that there could not be any more Guardians and they too did not use the word badaa. warmest, Susan

Re: badaa: a Prophet before one thousand years?

> Susan, thanks for answer. I think it is NOT possible (not because 
> God is not able to do that, but because of His Will);

Dear Badi, 

Except badaa signifies a change in the Divine Will. So theoretically 
it would be possible. But given the strong language Baha'u'llah used 
in that regard, I think it about as likely as God changing the law of 
gravity (which theoretically He *could* do as well.) 

 Anyway, your reasoning of responsibility is pretty valid 
> for me. Also, I would like to get understand Noah's situation (so, 
> His people were responsible?).

Yeah, because there we are talking about a situation where people's 
conceptions of certain prophecy were not fulfilled something which 
happens in relation to the Manifestation all the time. We aren't 
talking about an explicit order not to follow someone claiming to be a 
Manifestation if He doesn't fulfill a certain criteria. 

warmest, Susan  


 
 
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Re: badaa: a Prophet before one thousand years?

> Yes, I believe this is the explanation the Hands gave for the 
> ending of 
> the Guardianship.  Marleen

Dear Marleen, 

Actually they never did, though that would have been a logical 
explanation. The Remeyites claim that the Hands declared the 
Guardianship badaa, but they were not in the position to do so and 
never issued any document to that effect. I'm sure it came up in their 
consultations, however. It was the Universal House of Justice that 
made the ruling that there could not be any more Guardians and they 
too did not use the word badaa. 

warmest, Susan 


 
 
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Re: badaa: a Prophet before one thousand years?







I didn't know, what was that explanation based on badaa???M Chase <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió:  Yes, I believe this is the explanation the Hands gave for the ending of the Guardianship.  MarleenHasan Elias wrote: Can anyone explain what "badaa" means? Is it that the will of God can change anytime? 



 
 

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Re: badaa: a Prophet before one thousand years?

Susan, thanks for answer. I think it is NOT possible (not because God is not able to do that, but because of His Will); I have other personal reasons, but they are not scholar reasons, they are very "mine". Anyway, your reasoning of responsibility is pretty valid for me. Also, I would like to get understand Noah's situation (so, His people were responsible?). best regards, Has [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: I suppose you could say it was possible, but then we could not be held responsible for failing to follow Him given the fact that we were told to regard anyone who appeared before that time as a lying imposter. warmest, Susan

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Re: badaa: a Prophet before one thousand years?

> Can anyone explain what "badaa" means? Is it that the will of God 
> can change anytime?
>  In other forum one said because of this "badaa", the next 
> Prophet may come BEFORE one thousand years. I think it is not 
> possible.  If yes: why yes?, if not: why not?

Dear Hasan, 

I suppose you could say it was possible, but then we could not be held 
responsible for failing to follow Him given the fact that we were told 
to regard anyone who appeared before that time as a lying imposter. 

warmest, Susan 


 
 
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Re: badaa: a Prophet before one thousand years?

2006-01-27 Thread M Chase








Yes, I believe this is the explanation the Hands gave for the ending of
the Guardianship.  Marleen

Hasan Elias wrote:

  
  
  
  
  Can anyone explain what "badaa" means?
Is it that the will of God can change anytime?
   
  






 
 

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badaa: a Prophet before one thousand years?