re: Authorship of the Gospels

2006-06-20 Thread firestorm
as a card carrying fundie, i am compelled to offer the view that i am a 
disciple of Christ.
   :# someone who believes and helps to spread the doctrine of another
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

# A Disciple (from the Latin discipulus, a pupil) is one who receives 
instruction from another; a scholar; a learner; especially, a follower who has 
learned to believe in the truth of the doctrine of his teacher; an adherent in 
doctrine
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disciple

in generral i beleive that Baha'u'llah means what He is Saying, but that only 
the Guardian can tell us what that is.
  the UHJ may elucidate. the Master interpreted.
   b ut unless we have something like the Iqan (where we likweise have the 
so-called 4 questions) we have no idea what Baha'u'llah said.
  not our job.
   now... do i personally think that the 4 named Gospellers were among 12 
unnamed people who did a lot of road trips with Christ, and some not, and who 
may be archtypes for the 12 tribes of israel?
  Baha'u'llah doesn't say so. 
  does Baha'u'llah preclude these guys working from notes (the so-called Q doc)?
   nope.
   is one of them a block head who is illiterate and coulda had his running 
buddy mark write doewn some struff? h. simon...called the stone. 
   here is another look at the 12
http://www.bibletexts.com/glossary/thetwelve.htm
   which, of course, leaves out the first one to Get the Point---
the magdalene.

 
 
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Re: Authorship of the Gospels

2006-06-20 Thread Richard H. Gravelly
now... do i personally think that the 4 named Gospellers were among 12
unnamed people who did a lot of road trips with Christ, and some not, and
who may be archtypes for the 12 tribes of israel?
  Baha'u'llah

That, firestorm, was certainly a refreshing portrayal of the issue.  One
would think that the standard for textual exegeses would recognise the
Quran'ic standard.

Certainly in their histories is an example for men of understanding.
This is no new tale of fiction, but a confirmation of previous scriptures,
and
an explanation of all things, and guidance and mercy to those who believe.
 (The Qur'an (Rodwell tr), Sura  12 - Joseph, Peace be on Him)

To me the suggestion is that the succeeding Revelation presents all from the
previous Revelations that is relevant to today's issue which is the
acceptance of the revelation for the day.

Richard.





 
 
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Authorship of the Gospels

2006-06-19 Thread David Friedman

Baha'u'llah wrote:

The Four Gospels were written after Him [Christ]. John, Luke, Mark and 
Matthew - these four wrote after Christ what they remembered of His 
utterances.

   (From a previously untranslated Tablet)

This passage seems to say that all four of the Gospel writers were disciples 
and that the common attributions of authorship are correct.  The Gospels 
were written by disciples based on their memory of what Jesus said.  I have 
long assumed that though Baha'u'llah said this He didn't really mean it, but 
I have no proof of that.  I have to imagine there are others here who don't 
believe that the Gospels were written by disciples.  So I'm interested to 
know how people deal with this passage.  I'm not sure why Baha'u'llah would 
say this if He didn't believe it.  It appears to be something He said in 
response to a question.  I certainly have difficulty seeing the Gospels as 
penned by disciples based on their recollections.  My view on the dating of 
the Gospels would make it unlikely that they were still alive.  Also, it's 
difficult to believe that the Gospels are entirely based on their memories 
of what Jesus said given the propensity of the Gospel writers to make what 
appear to be intentional editorial changes.  Matthew usually changes 
'kingdom of God' to 'kingdom of heaven,' and I don't think that was because 
Matthew's memory was off.


The only other statement regarding authorship is by 'Abdu'l-Baha:

Know ye that the Torah is that which was revealed in the Tablets to Moses, 
may peace be upon Him, or that to which He was bidden. But the stories are 
historical narratives and were written after Moses, may peace be upon Him.

   (From a previously untranslated Tablet)

His indication that Moses Himself didn't write the Pentateuch seems 
reasonable to me.


Regards,
David




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Re: Authorship of the Gospels

2006-06-19 Thread Michael Alcorn
David I have a problem with your reference: (From a previously untranslated 
Tablet). Has it now been authenticated? If it has, then I can believe it 
and there is no doubt it is the truth.

Best wishes
Mike

- Original Message - 
From: David Friedman [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Sent: Monday, June 19, 2006 11:14 AM
Subject: Authorship of the Gospels



Baha'u'llah wrote:

The Four Gospels were written after Him [Christ]. John, Luke, Mark and 
Matthew - these four wrote after Christ what they remembered of His 
utterances.

   (From a previously untranslated Tablet)

This passage seems to say that all four of the Gospel writers were 
disciples and that the common attributions of authorship are correct.  The 
Gospels were written by disciples based on their memory of what Jesus 
said.  I have long assumed that though Baha'u'llah said this He didn't 
really mean it, but I have no proof of that.  I have to imagine there are 
others here who don't believe that the Gospels were written by disciples. 
So I'm interested to know how people deal with this passage.  I'm not sure 
why Baha'u'llah would say this if He didn't believe it.  It appears to be 
something He said in response to a question.  I certainly have difficulty 
seeing the Gospels as penned by disciples based on their recollections. 
My view on the dating of the Gospels would make it unlikely that they were 
still alive.  Also, it's difficult to believe that the Gospels are 
entirely based on their memories of what Jesus said given the propensity 
of the Gospel writers to make what appear to be intentional editorial 
changes.  Matthew usually changes 'kingdom of God' to 'kingdom of heaven,' 
and I don't think that was because Matthew's memory was off.


The only other statement regarding authorship is by 'Abdu'l-Baha:

Know ye that the Torah is that which was revealed in the Tablets to Moses, 
may peace be upon Him, or that to which He was bidden. But the stories are 
historical narratives and were written after Moses, may peace be upon Him.

   (From a previously untranslated Tablet)

His indication that Moses Himself didn't write the Pentateuch seems 
reasonable to me.


Regards,
David




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Re: Authorship of the Gospels

2006-06-19 Thread Gilberto Simpson

Even for fundamentalists or traditionalist Christians, Luke and Mark
weren't actually of the 12. And If you read the beginnings of Luke,
even the author doesn't claim that his work is an eyewitness account.

I wonder if you might be assuming too much about the meaning of the
words. If A tells B something. And B passes the message to C. And C
writes down what they remembers of A's words that doesn't mean C
ever met A.

-Gilberto

On 6/19/06, David Friedman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Baha'u'llah wrote:

The Four Gospels were written after Him [Christ]. John, Luke, Mark and
Matthew - these four wrote after Christ what they remembered of His
utterances.
(From a previously untranslated Tablet)

This passage seems to say that all four of the Gospel writers were disciples
and that the common attributions of authorship are correct.  The Gospels
were written by disciples based on their memory of what Jesus said.  I have
long assumed that though Baha'u'llah said this He didn't really mean it, but
I have no proof of that.  I have to imagine there are others here who don't
believe that the Gospels were written by disciples.  So I'm interested to
know how people deal with this passage.  I'm not sure why Baha'u'llah would
say this if He didn't believe it.  It appears to be something He said in
response to a question.  I certainly have difficulty seeing the Gospels as
penned by disciples based on their recollections.  My view on the dating of
the Gospels would make it unlikely that they were still alive.  Also, it's
difficult to believe that the Gospels are entirely based on their memories
of what Jesus said given the propensity of the Gospel writers to make what
appear to be intentional editorial changes.  Matthew usually changes
'kingdom of God' to 'kingdom of heaven,' and I don't think that was because
Matthew's memory was off.

The only other statement regarding authorship is by 'Abdu'l-Baha:

Know ye that the Torah is that which was revealed in the Tablets to Moses,
may peace be upon Him, or that to which He was bidden. But the stories are
historical narratives and were written after Moses, may peace be upon Him.
(From a previously untranslated Tablet)

His indication that Moses Himself didn't write the Pentateuch seems
reasonable to me.

Regards,
David




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Re: Authorship of the Gospels

2006-06-19 Thread David Friedman

Dear Michael,

David I have a problem with your reference: (From a previously 
untranslated Tablet). Has it now been authenticated? If it has, then I can 
believe it and there is no doubt it is the truth.


It no doubt has been authenticated, as this is found in a response from the 
research department.  This is from a letter in the Baha'i Library.


Regards,
David




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Re: Authorship of the Gospels

2006-06-19 Thread smaneck
 Baha'u'llah wrote:
 
 The Four Gospels were written after Him [Christ]. John, Luke, Mark 
 and 
 Matthew - these four wrote after Christ what they remembered of 
 His 
 utterances.
(From a previously untranslated Tablet)
 
 This passage seems to say that all four of the Gospel writers were 
 disciples 
 and that the common attributions of authorship are correct.

Dear David, 

The passage says nothing about them being disciples. Mark and Luke 
were not discples, for instance. It's true that Baha'u'llah is not 
challenging the common attribution of these Gospels, but I doubt if 
that is even an issue for Him. 

  The 
 Gospels 
 were written by disciples based on their memory of what Jesus 
 said.  

Again, you are inserting the word 'disciples' which is not in the 
text. But we know Jesus' sayings were carried down orally before they 
were written down. No scholar challenges this that I know of, except 
those that want to deny Jesus' very existence. 

warmest, Susan 


 
 
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Re: Authorship of the Gospels

2006-06-19 Thread smaneck
 I wonder if you might be assuming too much about the meaning of the
 words. If A tells B something. And B passes the message to C. And C
 writes down what they remembers of A's words that doesn't mean C
 ever met A.

I think you are right, Gilberto. 


 
 
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Re: Authorship of the Gospels

2006-06-19 Thread David Friedman

Dear Gilberto,


I wonder if you might be assuming too much about the meaning of the
words. If A tells B something. And B passes the message to C. And C
writes down what they remembers of A's words that doesn't mean C
ever met A.


That's an interesting suggestion.  Still, though, the wording doesn't sit 
well with me if the writers weren't actually there.


Regards,
David




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Re: Authorship of the Gospels

2006-06-19 Thread Scott Saylors
David,You are aware of how long it was before the Torah was revealed and when it was actually written down, aren't you?Regards,  ScottDavid Friedman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  Dear Gilberto,I wonder if you might be assuming too much about the meaning of thewords. If A tells B something. And B passes the message to C. And Cwrites down "what they remembers of A's words" that doesn't mean Cever met A.That's an interesting suggestion. Still, though, the wording doesn't sit well with me if the writers weren't actually there.Regards,DavidThe information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and
 is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you._Find the coolest online games @ http://xtramsn.co.nz/gaming__You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to
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Re: Authorship of the Gospels

2006-06-19 Thread smaneck
 That's an interesting suggestion.  Still, though, the wording 
 doesn't sit 
 well with me if the writers weren't actually there.

Dear David, 

That is because you are incorrigibly literalistic. ;-}

warmest, Susan 


 
 
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Re: Authorship of the Gospels

2006-06-19 Thread David Friedman

Dear Susan,


That is because you are incorrigibly literalistic. ;-}


Well I suppose the wording doesn't mean they were all disciples.  I guess 
it's the word 'memory' that made me wonder.  Given the oral traditions 
available at the time, I would say of Mark and Luke that they wrote the 
Gospels using words of Jesus they knew, not words of Jesus they remembered.  
But it does look like I'm wrong.  Phew!


Regards,
David




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