Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites
The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Thu, Sep 2, 2010 at 12:39 AM, Stephen Gray wrote: > The Baha'i Studies Listserv > > > > I've only seen limited negativity. > It depends how you define negativity. In light of the fact that it creates division amongst a religion whose soul purpose is to create a unified religious spirit through mankind, it is extremely damaging and negative. You must understand the covenant is inseperable with the faith. To defy the covenant is to not be a Bahai- as a Bahai must wholly adhere to all the principles how much more the covenant itself. That is why Brent said you have drunk deep poison. Reading such material is analogous to testing your faith, it is not recomended. They will shake and shake the tree with their violent attacks and the leaves that are not wholly firmly attached will fall off. I recomend you take Brents advice. I was just giving my own rant about CB and am new here, but him and other Bahais here who are reaching out to you really know what they are saying when they emphasize its more important than you realise. Why do you think Abdul'Baha spends so much of that tablet talking about the covenant? he knows how damaging these attacks are when people are not strong, and how more will come in the future. cheers. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-524303-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites
The Baha'i Studies Listserv > Are there any CB statistics? Well sort of, but their accuracy is in question. We know during the recent court case you referred to the OBF claimed to have only about thirty members in the US. Brent will tell you that the hotel room in which they hold their annual convention only holds that many. Unlike our own convention which is mostly attended only by delegates, all members of the OBF try to attend because it is there only chance to see one another face to face. At one time the Jensenites claimed to have 5000 members. Unlike the other Remeyites they did have actual communities mostly located in four places in the United States. This is the only group which had any measurable success recruiting people who had never been Baha'is to begin with. A lot left after his failed prophecy of 1980. Others left after Jensen's death when the movement fragmented into several different parts. I doubt if there fifty left between those various fragments. The Soghomonian Remeyites are even smaller having no organization whatsoever. As near as I can tell this 5 Elder group you were referring to is a one man show. The Tarbiyat group has been reduced to family members. I doubt very much if there are more than a thousand Covenant breakers and their followers altogether. > > Do you recognize different degrees of CB? (Divisions have occured amongst > the followers of the Bab, Baha'u'llah, Abdu'l-Baha, Shoghi Effendi, etc. Any > group that sees itself on the opposite side of a split can be considered a > CB of that degree.) No, there are not different degrees. No one can be considered a Covenant breaker unless they have been named as such by the Universal House of Justice. We usually avoid the followers of Covenant breakers as well but they may not necessarily fall into that category, especially if they were not actually Baha'is to begin with. > > Neal Chase sent open epistles to America, United Kingdom, France, Russia, > Vaticun City, and the United Nations including their leaders puporting > doomsday unless they converted. Yes, the BUPC, a faction of which is headed by Neal Chase is the only Covenant breaking group that has successfully attracted people outside the Baha'i community. I would argue this is partly because they succeeded in developing what really could be described as a separate cult. > Also, there are Youtube channels for Orthodox and Heart Baha'is. The Soghomonians don't call themselves "Heart Baha'is." There is a yahoo group run by Brent Reed which has a name similar to that. Brent Reed was originally a mainstream Baha'is, then he became a follower of Joel Marangella, then Jaques Soghomonian. He seems to be looking for a Baha'i group that accepts homosexuality, but hasn't had much success. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-524180-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites
The Baha'i Studies Listserv > Given all the time "they" spent on criticizing Obama for the church he > went to for 30 years you would think people would know better. And generally it is the same people. They want to have it both ways. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-524170-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites
The Baha'i Studies Listserv > Actually the reasons they give are: Yes, but I was referring to the fact that this discussion has just recently re-emerged. It was Fox News that first accused him of being a Muslim during the election. > > His father was a Muslim Not true. His father was a Marxist and like most Marxists he was an atheist. Obama's grandfather had converted to Islam, the family being originally Christian, but his father rejected religion entirely. Not that it matters, Obama only met his father once that he can remember. > His stepfather was a Muslim A non-practicing Muslim. > His stepbrothers are Muslim Probably. > He grew up in Kenya False. Obama grew up in Indonesia and Hawaii. He only visited Kenya once as an adult and it was after his father died. > His first names is Barack (Arabic for Baruch, a Jewish prophet or atleast > the scribe of Jeremiah) Barak means charisma or blessing in Arabic. > His middle name is Hussein (Imam Hussein) Hussein is the diminutive for handsome. I'd say he was well-named. ;-} > He bowed to the King of Saudi Arabia But did he do this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRhDzpJV2TM&feature=fvw > That last one makes the least sense, because since he bowed to the Emperor > and Empress of Japan, does that make him a Shintoist? LOL. I remember when President Ford bowed to the Emperor of Japan, everyone made fun of him because his white socks showed. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-524168-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Are there any CB statistics? Do you recognize different degrees of CB? (Divisions have occured amongst the followers of the Bab, Baha'u'llah, Abdu'l-Baha, Shoghi Effendi, etc. Any group that sees itself on the opposite side of a split can be considered a CB of that degree.) "On teh other hand Bahais who are known as convenant breakers follow the pattern of putting up many many websites on the net with their semi-Bahai propaganda. They do rarely seem to teach the faith in themselves and fail to bring people into the faith. Look at the Bahais who are actively engaged in teh community and doing Ruhi and Childrens classes how they spend their time and compare them to these people who just spend their time attacking. It is pretty clear that they have no substance of themselves." Neal Chase sent open epistles to America, United Kingdom, France, Russia, Vaticun City, and the United Nations including their leaders puporting doomsday unless they converted. BUPC for example tends to emphasize mostly their teaching of an uncoming Nuclear Apocalypse. He claims that any location within a 100 mile radius of a city with a population of 100,00 or more is a gooing to be nuked along with all political and military sites. Also, there are Youtube channels for Orthodox and Heart Baha'is. The latter consists of Jacques Soghomonian expounding his interpretations of various of the writings of Baha'u'llah ie Hidden Words, Seven Valleys, etc. I've only seen limited negativity. From: Naison Jones To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Wed, September 1, 2010 2:51:13 AM Subject: Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites The Baha'i Studies Listserv Hi all I am new here so forgive me if my words are not perfect to this thread. It is interesting to note that covenant-breaker material -as the Bahais call it- is quite different from the material of different religious sects. If you look at Christianity you will see that it is composed of different branches and within them the people of that religion will still follow their religion and attempt to teach it. On teh other hand Bahais who are known as convenant breakers follow the pattern of putting up many many websites on the net with their semi-Bahai propaganda. They do rarely seem to teach the faith in themselves and fail to bring people into the faith. Look at the Bahais who are actively engaged in teh community and doing Ruhi and Childrens classes how they spend their time and compare them to these people who just spend their time attacking. It is pretty clear that they have no substance of themselves. And for all their talk about Bahai reform what are they doing? nothing. It is just ideals to create disunity clothed in the guise of something seemingly fair -yet inwardly foul (as it is). Its imcumbent on every Bahai to investigate so they can see the right from the wrong. So the tests of those who have gone astray wont distract or even give them pause for a moment. Sorry that is not authenticated text im quoting just my understanding from what i read. Steve unfortunately since you are a new Bahai- as I understand- these things are agitating you, and thats exactly what they want. If you were a well deepened Bahai a strong tree with your roots firmly in the ground these websites would pass over you like water over rock, or stormy wind uprooting a might tree- it cant be done no matter how strong the wind. Just be aware you are suseptable. It is a dangerous time for you when you will be tempted by the dark side (yes allow me that starwars reference). But its true. There are many comparisons that can be made to star wards - the old ones and the Bahai faith. Sorry im probably saying too much now. Also if the Bahais seem strong-worded to you you have to be aware that there comes a point where you should stop posting these sites. Susan has asked you very nicely many times. Why dont you respect her wishes? It is not nice to do it over and over. Dont be a mischief-maker. (: cheers. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:skg_z...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-524029-1719008.2a3842ae5b2f7d34dd5fdfc724616...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Stu
Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Also, that Beer Summit is the best proof he's not Muslim. From: Gilberto Simpson To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Wed, September 1, 2010 10:30:50 AM Subject: Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites The Baha'i Studies Listserv Given all the time "they" spent on criticizing Obama for the church he went to for 30 years you would think people would know better. On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 10:49 AM, Stephen Gray wrote: > The Baha'i Studies Listserv > > Actually the reasons they give are: > > His father was a Muslim > His stepfather was a Muslim > His stepbrothers are Muslim > He grew up in Kenya > His first names is Barack (Arabic for Baruch, a Jewish prophet or atleast > the scribe of Jeremiah) > His middle name is Hussein (Imam Hussein) > He bowed to the King of Saudi Arabia > > That last one makes the least sense, because since he bowed to the Emperor > and Empress of Japan, does that make him a Shintoist? > > > From: Susan Maneck > To: Baha'i Studies > Sent: Tue, August 31, 2010 5:29:05 PM > Subject: Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites > > The Baha'i Studies Listserv >> I think it is concerning that the President has to "ease" the tension by >> claiming that he's not a Muslim, which implies that there is somehow >> something bad about being a Muslim. > > I agree. It is no accident the latest discussions of whether Obama is > really a Muslim arose because of his defense of Muslims' right to > build the community center in Manhattan. > > __ > You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:skg_z...@yahoo.com > Unsubscribe: send a blank email to > mailto:leave-523987-1719008.2a3842ae5b2f7d34dd5fdfc724616...@list.jccc.edu > Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to > ly...@list.jccc.edu > Or subscribe: > http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st > Baha'i Studies is available through the following: > Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu > Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st > News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st > Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net > New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu > > > __ > You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:gilberto.simp...@gmail.com > Unsubscribe: send a blank email to > mailto:leave-524080-68452.e157d5dc5efabb63696f251595c88...@list.jccc.edu > Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to > ly...@list.jccc.edu > Or subscribe: > http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st > Baha'i Studies is available through the following: > Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu > Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st > News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st > Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net > New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:skg_z...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-524095-1719008.2a3842ae5b2f7d34dd5fdfc724616...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-524121-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Given all the time "they" spent on criticizing Obama for the church he went to for 30 years you would think people would know better. On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 10:49 AM, Stephen Gray wrote: > The Baha'i Studies Listserv > > Actually the reasons they give are: > > His father was a Muslim > His stepfather was a Muslim > His stepbrothers are Muslim > He grew up in Kenya > His first names is Barack (Arabic for Baruch, a Jewish prophet or atleast > the scribe of Jeremiah) > His middle name is Hussein (Imam Hussein) > He bowed to the King of Saudi Arabia > > That last one makes the least sense, because since he bowed to the Emperor > and Empress of Japan, does that make him a Shintoist? > > > From: Susan Maneck > To: Baha'i Studies > Sent: Tue, August 31, 2010 5:29:05 PM > Subject: Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites > > The Baha'i Studies Listserv >> I think it is concerning that the President has to "ease" the tension by >> claiming that he's not a Muslim, which implies that there is somehow >> something bad about being a Muslim. > > I agree. It is no accident the latest discussions of whether Obama is > really a Muslim arose because of his defense of Muslims' right to > build the community center in Manhattan. > > __ > You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:skg_z...@yahoo.com > Unsubscribe: send a blank email to > mailto:leave-523987-1719008.2a3842ae5b2f7d34dd5fdfc724616...@list.jccc.edu > Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to > ly...@list.jccc.edu > Or subscribe: > http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st > Baha'i Studies is available through the following: > Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu > Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st > News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st > Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net > New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu > > > __ > You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:gilberto.simp...@gmail.com > Unsubscribe: send a blank email to > mailto:leave-524080-68452.e157d5dc5efabb63696f251595c88...@list.jccc.edu > Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to > ly...@list.jccc.edu > Or subscribe: > http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st > Baha'i Studies is available through the following: > Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu > Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st > News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st > Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net > New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-524095-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Actually the reasons they give are: His father was a Muslim His stepfather was a Muslim His stepbrothers are Muslim He grew up in Kenya His first names is Barack (Arabic for Baruch, a Jewish prophet or atleast the scribe of Jeremiah) His middle name is Hussein (Imam Hussein) He bowed to the King of Saudi Arabia That last one makes the least sense, because since he bowed to the Emperor and Empress of Japan, does that make him a Shintoist? From: Susan Maneck To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Tue, August 31, 2010 5:29:05 PM Subject: Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites The Baha'i Studies Listserv > I think it is concerning that the President has to "ease" the tension by > claiming that he's not a Muslim, which implies that there is somehow > something bad about being a Muslim. I agree. It is no accident the latest discussions of whether Obama is really a Muslim arose because of his defense of Muslims' right to build the community center in Manhattan. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:skg_z...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-523987-1719008.2a3842ae5b2f7d34dd5fdfc724616...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-524080-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Hi all I am new here so forgive me if my words are not perfect to this thread. It is interesting to note that covenant-breaker material -as the Bahais call it- is quite different from the material of different religious sects. If you look at Christianity you will see that it is composed of different branches and within them the people of that religion will still follow their religion and attempt to teach it. On teh other hand Bahais who are known as convenant breakers follow the pattern of putting up many many websites on the net with their semi-Bahai propaganda. They do rarely seem to teach the faith in themselves and fail to bring people into the faith. Look at the Bahais who are actively engaged in teh community and doing Ruhi and Childrens classes how they spend their time and compare them to these people who just spend their time attacking. It is pretty clear that they have no substance of themselves. And for all their talk about Bahai reform what are they doing? nothing. It is just ideals to create disunity clothed in the guise of something seemingly fair -yet inwardly foul (as it is). Its imcumbent on every Bahai to investigate so they can see the right from the wrong. So the tests of those who have gone astray wont distract or even give them pause for a moment. Sorry that is not authenticated text im quoting just my understanding from what i read. Steve unfortunately since you are a new Bahai- as I understand- these things are agitating you, and thats exactly what they want. If you were a well deepened Bahai a strong tree with your roots firmly in the ground these websites would pass over you like water over rock, or stormy wind uprooting a might tree- it cant be done no matter how strong the wind. Just be aware you are suseptable. It is a dangerous time for you when you will be tempted by the dark side (yes allow me that starwars reference). But its true. There are many comparisons that can be made to star wards - the old ones and the Bahai faith. Sorry im probably saying too much now. Also if the Bahais seem strong-worded to you you have to be aware that there comes a point where you should stop posting these sites. Susan has asked you very nicely many times. Why dont you respect her wishes? It is not nice to do it over and over. Dont be a mischief-maker. (: cheers. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-524029-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Stephen, your statement that only 10% of the Covenant-breaker websites is negative, demonstrates the problem, and your unawareness of the situation. While discussing these ideas with deepened Baha'is, reading the Sacred Text and the Master's Last Tablet to America, and reciting prayers are all good ideas, there is no substitute, in your situation, for sitting down with your Auxiliary Board member for Protection to discuss these things. Your spirit has been affected by not only the Covenant-breaker material but by the ravings of Fred Glaysher. You need the calming spirit and benevolent influence of a member of the Protection Board, or a Counsellor. You've exposed yourself to poison, and taken deep drinks of poison. Might it not be time to consider what I wrote to you off-list? As an enrolled believer, you have access to the NSA's website www.usbnc.org and prominent on that website is a list of the Auxiliary Board members, and you can easily find your Protection Board member; or as I wrote, I will help you to locate him or her. This is more important a matter than you realize. Take the opportunity that the Baha'is on this list are offering to you. You owe it to yourself to learn the truth about the Baha'i Faith, and you aren't getting it from these websites. They're sending you wandering off into the wilderness, and you're rejecting everything the Baha'is are offering you. It won't hurt to get the other perspective, and your Protection Board is where to go -- face to face. Brent __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-524026-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites
The Baha'i Studies Listserv > Unitarian Universalism goes by the Congregationalist type of administration, > which means that the local congregation makes many of the administration > decisions of their community, even if they do have a "head" organization at > the top. Yes, but I don't think those who are calling themselves UU Baha'is have anything that specific in mind. They just don't like the Administrative Order. I don't > want to be cynical, but I am thinking that at least part of the reason why > Eric Stetson is linking 'Unitarian Bahaism' with the Unitarian Universalist > Association, is because of the free office space so to speak. Except I don't think he has attracted any Baha'i followers where he lives or goes to church (in Nashville, I think.) What we are talking about it something which exists only in cyberspace. A yahoo list does not a religious sect make. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-523988-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites
The Baha'i Studies Listserv > I think it is concerning that the President has to "ease" the tension by > claiming that he's not a Muslim, which implies that there is somehow > something bad about being a Muslim. I agree. It is no accident the latest discussions of whether Obama is really a Muslim arose because of his defense of Muslims' right to build the community center in Manhattan. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-523987-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites
The Baha'i Studies Listserv > Actually, I don't think Mirza Ahmad Sohrab was officially declared a > covenant-breaker either. Shoghi Effendi said he was a great enemy towards > the faith, but I haven't been able to find a reference where he was declared > a covenant-breaker. Dear Matt, I can't show you precisely where the Guardian declared him a Covenant breaker, but I can definitely show you where he refers to him as a Covenant breaker: For instance we have the following: As regards the matter of those who have withdrawn from the Faith : as you know, no one has the right to excommunicate anybody except the Guardian of the Faith, himself. Those people who have withdrawn from the Faith, though critical of it and disgruntled, are not necessarily Covenant-breakers. If they were associating with Ahmad Sohrab [1] and upholding his claims actively, then they would come into an entirely different category. If this is the case, you should inform the Guardian (Shoghi Effendi, Messages to Canada, p. 66) Obviously if the Guardian excommunicates those who associate with Ahmad Sohrab then he must have been a Covenant breaker. Note also the following cablegram: Treacherous Ruhi Afnan, not content with previous disobedience, correspondence with Ahmad Sohrab, contact with old Covenant-breakers, sale, in conjunction with other members of family, of sacred property purchased by Founder of Faith, and allowing his sister to marry son of 'Abdu'l-Bahá's enemy, is now openly lecturing on Bahá'í movement, claiming to be its exponent and is misrepresenting the teachings and deliberately causing confusion in minds of authorities and the local population. Inform National Assemblies. -- Shoghi [Cablegram, May 17, 1953] (Shoghi Effendi, Messages to the Baha'i World - 1950-1957, p. 48) warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-523985-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Unitarian Universalism goes by the Congregationalist type of administration, which means that the local congregation makes many of the administration decisions of their community, even if they do have a "head" organization at the top. They are more bottom-up than top-down. At the same time, they accept anyone into their fold because it is not a *doctrinal* or *revelation * based religion. One of the cool things about the UU church is that members can form their own groups within the church, and hold meetings. Thus, you can form a Unitarian Buddhist, Unitarian Zoroastrain, Unitarian Hindu, and yes, even a Unitarian *Bahai* group. One of the perks of this is that these groups can hold their meetings inside the UU church *free of charge*. I don't want to be cynical, but I am thinking that at least part of the reason why Eric Stetson is linking 'Unitarian Bahaism' with the Unitarian Universalist Association, is because of the free office space so to speak. Maybe that makes me wrong to assume what is another person's intentions. On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 12:39 PM, Stephen Gray wrote: > The Baha'i Studies Listserv > > > I thought those were actual Unitarian Universalists. Due to there being a > website now, even if he created it, Unitarian Universalists could be > becoming Unitarian Baha'is. They do have a Yahoo group. > > > > Unitarian Universalist do tend to view they Unitarian Universalism as their > primary religion and whatever else as secondary. > > > > A talk on Unitarian Universalism would require its own topic. > > > > Back to Unitarian Baha'is they believe Baha'u'llah, Abdu'l-Baha, Mirza > Muhammad Ali. > > > > They believe that Abdu'l-Baha changing his succesor to Shoghi Effendi was > superceding Baha'u'llah, that the religion is about Baha'u'llah and his > writings, only Baha'u'llah's writings are sacred scripture, that no more > anyrthing can be produced for another 1000 years atleast, etc. > > > The Baha'i Studies Listserv > > Ruth White and Mirza Ahmad Sohrab and Zimmer Hermann (this one > iffy?) were > > declared CB. > > Its Herman Zimmer, and yes he was declared a Covenant breaker. > > In regards to Ruth White and Herman Zimmer, Fred Glaysher has done > more than steal their ideas. He set up bogus websites claiming to > represent their long defunct organizations. He did that in regards to > the Muhammad Ali as well. In so doing he could make it appear as > though there are more divisions in the Baha'i community that currently > exist. The fact is that neither Ruth White, Ahmad Sohrab, Herman > Zimmer, or Muhammad Ali currently have any organization which follows > them. > > > __ > You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:matthewhaa...@gmail.com > Unsubscribe: send a blank email to > mailto:leave-523858-953325.e9a9b042dd227e4657deb0ff0d384...@list.jccc.edu > > Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu > Or subscribe: > http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st > Baha'i Studies is available through the following: > Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu > Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st > News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st > Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net > New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu > > __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-523984-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites
The Baha'i Studies Listserv *"Recently at a Study Circle a new believer expressed concern as to whether Baha'is might be persecuted now that we have a "Muslim' as a president."* I think it is concerning that the President has to "ease" the tension by claiming that he's *not *a Muslim, which implies that there is somehow something bad about being a Muslim. Like 'Muslim' is synonymous with 'evil', 'murderer', etc. I know that he doesn't think that. On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 12:17 PM, Susan Maneck wrote: > The Baha'i Studies Listserv > > Dee Hock is the founder and the former CEO of Visa International and has > a > > very good book called, "The Birth of the Chaotic Age". He notes, "The > > problem is never how to get new, innovative thoughts in your mind, but > how > > to get the old ones out." > > > > Problem with CBing materials is that they leave a permanent imprint in > our > > mind, bias our view and everything else we read is colored by that bias. > > This not just true about CBer materials, but any sort of negative or > attack > > material. For instance, if I read "Obama is a smoker", the thought of > him > > being a smoker (not that there's really anything wrong with being a > smoker) > > lingers on and colors everything else I read or hear about Obama. > > Dear Ahang, > > More maliciously, think of how this crazy notion that Obama is not > really a US citizen has caught hold, largely a result of the internet. > The fact that his birth certificate has been widely published on the > internet as well, does not change the effect that these accusations > have had on a significant portion of the population. Recently at a > Study Circle a new believer expressed concern as to whether Baha'is > might be persecuted now that we have a "Muslim' as a president. When I > pointed out that Obama wasn't a Muslim, that he was a member of the > United Church of Christ, she insisted, "Why hasn't he produced his > birth certificate." Offering to show her the birth certificate on the > internet did nothing to change her mind. > In cyberspace, the more things get repeated the more they get believed > regardless of their merits. > > As for Obama's smoking I'm rather amused by the image of him sneaking > an occasional cigarette on some porch of the White House hoping > neither his wife or a reporter catches him. > > warmest, Susan > > __ > You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:matthewhaa...@gmail.com > Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto: > leave-523840-953325.e9a9b042dd227e4657deb0ff0d384...@list.jccc.edu > Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to > ly...@list.jccc.edu > Or subscribe: > http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st > Baha'i Studies is available through the following: > Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu > Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st > News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st > Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net > New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu > > __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-523983-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Actually, I don't think Mirza Ahmad Sohrab was officially declared a covenant-breaker either. Shoghi Effendi said he was a great enemy towards the faith, but I haven't been able to find a reference where he was declared a covenant-breaker. Someone more versed in the history would know better than I, though. On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 12:04 PM, Stephen Gray wrote: > The Baha'i Studies Listserv > > > Clues to what's not what it seems: > > > - references to the davidic kingship > > - claims to be or speak for the guardian > > - claims to be or speak for Hands of the Cause > > - names such as 'orthodox bahai' / 'reformed bahai' / Bahais under > > the Provisions of the Covenant (BUPC) > > - derogatory names for Bahais, such as "Haifans" or "heterodox' > > etc... > > - conspiracy theories (Ruhiyyah Khanum murdered Shoghi Effendi; the > > Hand of the Cause staged a coup... ) and disaster predictions (the > > world will be struck by a meteor on such-and-such a date). > > >That is a pretty good list, though I should mention that the founder > >of the so-called Reformed Baha'is has never been officially declared a > >Covenant breaker. He was simply removed from the rolls after he > >threatened to sue any member of the Baha'i Institutions who attempted > >to contact him. > > Ruth White and Mirza Ahmad Sohrab were declared CB. He gets his ideas from > them. > > __ > You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:matthewhaa...@gmail.com > > Unsubscribe: send a blank email to > mailto:leave-523829-953325.e9a9b042dd227e4657deb0ff0d384...@list.jccc.edu > > Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu > Or subscribe: > http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st > Baha'i Studies is available through the following: > Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu > Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st > News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st > Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net > New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu > > __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-523982-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites
The Baha'i Studies Listserv It should take you a lot longer than a week to read most of his writings, and more importantly, internalize them. This is your life, so I'm not telling you what to do, but I would suggest to you to "slow down." This isn't a race. On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 11:48 AM, Stephen Gray wrote: > The Baha'i Studies Listserv > > I'm currenty this week archively reading most of the writings of > Abdu'l-Baha and comparing them to his Will & Testament. > > -- > *From:* Sen & Sonja > > *To:* Baha'i Studies > *Sent:* Tue, August 31, 2010 10:43:06 AM > > *Subject:* Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker > sites > > The Baha'i Studies Listserv > The problem is not so much to avoid reading the sites, as to know > what it is that you are reading, when people are trying to pass > themselves off as something else. > > To make it doubly difficult, one of the "groups" (which may consist > of one person with a bee in his bonnet) uses a photograph of the > Bahai holy places on their sites, to give the impression that you are > looking at "their" headquarters in Haifa. > > Clues to what's not what it seems: > - references to the davidic kingship > - claims to be or speak for the guardian > - claims to be or speak for Hands of the Cause > - names such as 'orthodox bahai' / 'reformed bahai' / Bahais under > the Provisions of the Covenant (BUPC) > - derogatory names for Bahais, such as "Haifans" or "heterodox' > etc... > - conspiracy theories (Ruhiyyah Khanum murdered Shoghi Effendi; the > Hand of the Cause staged a coup... ) and disaster predictions (the > world will be struck by a meteor on such-and-such a date). > > There's also at least one site that claims to speak for Jewish Bahais > and is, I think, probably a dirty tricks scheme by the Iranian > government's anti-bahai agency. It is not really intended to deceive > western Bahais I think; it exists so that the anti-bahai propaganda > in Persian can quote it as evidence of Bahai links to Israel. > > Sen > -- > -- > Sen McGlinn http://senmcglinn.wordpress.com > > All is to be yielded up, save only the *remembrance* of God; > all is to be dispraised, except His praise. > Today, to this melody of the Company on high, > the world will leap and dance: > `Glory be to my Lord, the All-Glorious!' > > (Selections from the Writings of `Abdu'l-Baha, p. 93) > -- > -- > > > __ > You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:skg_z...@yahoo.com > Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto: > leave-523814-1719008.2a3842ae5b2f7d34dd5fdfc724616...@list.jccc.edu > > Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to > ly...@list.jccc.edu > Or subscribe: > http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st > Baha'i Studies is available through the following: > Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu > Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st > News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st > Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net > New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu > > __ > You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:matthewhaa...@gmail.com > > Unsubscribe: send a blank email to > mailto:leave-523820-953325.e9a9b042dd227e4657deb0ff0d384...@list.jccc.edu > > Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu > Or subscribe: > http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st > Baha'i Studies is available through the following: > Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu > Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st > News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st > Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net > New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu > > __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-523981-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites
The Baha'i Studies Listserv *"There's also at least one site that claims to speak for Jewish Bahais and is, I think, probably a dirty tricks scheme by the Iranian government's anti-bahai agency. It is not really intended to deceive western Bahais I think; it exists so that the anti-bahai propaganda in Persian can quote it as evidence of Bahai links to Israel."* ** It's the old "I create the source to prove you are evil, then use that source to justify why I think you are evil" trick. It's quite sickening. On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 11:43 AM, Sen & Sonja wrote: > The Baha'i Studies Listserv > The problem is not so much to avoid reading the sites, as to know > what it is that you are reading, when people are trying to pass > themselves off as something else. > > To make it doubly difficult, one of the "groups" (which may consist > of one person with a bee in his bonnet) uses a photograph of the > Bahai holy places on their sites, to give the impression that you are > looking at "their" headquarters in Haifa. > > Clues to what's not what it seems: > - references to the davidic kingship > - claims to be or speak for the guardian > - claims to be or speak for Hands of the Cause > - names such as 'orthodox bahai' / 'reformed bahai' / Bahais under > the Provisions of the Covenant (BUPC) > - derogatory names for Bahais, such as "Haifans" or "heterodox' > etc... > - conspiracy theories (Ruhiyyah Khanum murdered Shoghi Effendi; the > Hand of the Cause staged a coup... ) and disaster predictions (the > world will be struck by a meteor on such-and-such a date). > > There's also at least one site that claims to speak for Jewish Bahais > and is, I think, probably a dirty tricks scheme by the Iranian > government's anti-bahai agency. It is not really intended to deceive > western Bahais I think; it exists so that the anti-bahai propaganda > in Persian can quote it as evidence of Bahai links to Israel. > > Sen > -- > -- > Sen McGlinn http://senmcglinn.wordpress.com > > All is to be yielded up, save only the *remembrance* of God; > all is to be dispraised, except His praise. > Today, to this melody of the Company on high, > the world will leap and dance: > `Glory be to my Lord, the All-Glorious!' > > (Selections from the Writings of `Abdu'l-Baha, p. 93) > -- > -- > > > __ > You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:matthewhaa...@gmail.com > Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto: > leave-523814-953325.e9a9b042dd227e4657deb0ff0d384...@list.jccc.edu > Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to > ly...@list.jccc.edu > Or subscribe: > http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st > Baha'i Studies is available through the following: > Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu > Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st > News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st > Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net > New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu > __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-523980-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Not to mention they have been predicting a violent apocalypse for decades. If they didn't have the word "Baha'i" in their name, I would have assumed that they were just another American 'Christian' apocalyptic sect. On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 11:38 AM, Susan Maneck wrote: > The Baha'i Studies Listserv > > Actually CB material isn't all negative. There are alot of attempts of > > several groups to tie themselves into prophecies ie Bible, Apocrypha, > > Qur'an, Hadith, etc. > > Dear Stephen, > > The only CB group I know of that spends a lot of energy trying to tie > themselves in with the above are the Jensenite groups, I would have to > disagree with you about them not being 'negative.' Without any proof > whatsoever they frequently accuse Ruhiyyih Khanum of having murdered > the Guardian! > > warmest, Susan > > __ > You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:matthewhaa...@gmail.com > Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto: > leave-523811-953325.e9a9b042dd227e4657deb0ff0d384...@list.jccc.edu > Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to > ly...@list.jccc.edu > Or subscribe: > http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st > Baha'i Studies is available through the following: > Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu > Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st > News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st > Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net > New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu > __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-523979-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites
The Baha'i Studies Listserv > > I thought those were actual Unitarian Universalists. Due to there being a > website now, even if he created it, Unitarian Universalists could be > becoming Unitarian Baha'is. They do have a Yahoo group. Dear Steve. Muhammad Ali's so-called Unitarian Baha'is were completely different from the Unitarian Universalists which was founded by Eric Stetson. Early on they did try to connect themselves with Muhammad Ali's group but then they found there was no group to connect themselves with. As I mentioned the Unitarian Baha'i website associated with Muhammad Ali's claims was actually set up by Fred Glaysher in order to make it appear as though these groups were still operating. As for Eric Stetson's group, Eric Stetson himself was once a Baha'i but he now considers himself a Christian. Besides the yahoo group you are referring to, he runs another list called ex-Baha'i. While Eric was still a member of the Baha'i community he claimed to be a Manifestation of God. He eventually gave up that claim and left the Faith, but he was not ever declared a Covenant breaker. Later he became a Christian and was baptized into the Assembly of God church. After awhile he rejected their fundamentalists views and started his own Universalist church which which was not able to sustain itself. I think Eric goes to a Unitarian Church now. The yahoo group you are referring to is made up of a hodge-podge of mostly ex-Baha'is. A lot of them were gays who initially joined Fred Glaysher's group, which is pretty much just a yahoo list itself. Suddenly, and with no explanation, Fred Glaysher unsubscribed all the gay members of his group who then went over to Eric's group. > Back to Unitarian Baha'is they believe Baha'u'llah, Abdu'l-Baha, Mirza > Muhammad Ali. Once again, no such group currently exists. I can give some idea of what their beliefs originally were, however. They took the position that 'Abdu'l-Baha was supposed to only be in charge of the material affairs of the community while the spiritual affairs were supposed to be in Muhammad Ali's hands. They claim that instead 'Abdu'l-Baha took over the entire Faith and broke Baha'u'llah's injunction that there would be no Prophets for the next thousand years. So to say they believe in 'Abdu'l-Baha would be quite a stretch. Now, if by Unitarians you mean Eric Stetson's group, he takes the position that none of the three were infallible and each had some legitimate claims. > They believe that Abdu'l-Baha changing his succesor to Shoghi Effendi was > superceding Baha'u'llah, You do realize that the reason 'Abdu'l-Baha wrote the Will and Testament when He did was because Muhammad Ali was plotting with the Ottoman government to have 'Abdu'l-Baha executed? that the religion is about Baha'u'llah and his > writings, only Baha'u'llah's writings are sacred scripture, that no more > anyrthing can be produced for another 1000 years atleast, etc. Not that it stopped Muhammad Ali from trying to produce scripture himself! __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-523952-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites
The Baha'i Studies Listserv On 31 Aug 2010 at 9:39, Stephen Gray wrote: > They believe that Abdu'l-Baha changing his succesor to > Shoghi Effendi was superceding Baha'u'llah, But what exactly is the evidence that Baha'u'llah appointed Muhammad Ali as successor, rather than leaving this decision to Abdu'l-Baha? It is a single ambigyous preposition in the Kitab-e `ahd! (It might mean "after" (in time) or "beneath" (in station)). That is the only foundation for Muhammad Ali's pretentions, and it is not even the reason for his rebellion. He rebelled against Abdu'l-Baha while Abdu'l-Baha was still alive, so any claim to succession was not the reason. On my blog see http://senmcglinn.wordpress.com/2010/03/27/muhammad-ali/ http://senmcglinn.wordpress.com/2010/04/17/muhammad-ali-revived-2/ In the second of these blog entires there is a letter from Rosamund Templeton, published in `Facts for Behaists´ by Ibrahim Kheirella in 1901, which (unintentionally no doubt) shows the Muhammad Ali was deceiving her and had apparently got some money out of her. Among Baha'u'llahs words regarding Abdu'l-Baha, and with reference to other members of his family, are these: === If I see any one of the Branches opposing that which God hath desired, in truth He will expel him, and we are The Powerful, The Avenger. (Baha'i Prayers 9, p. 28) == Oh Jamal! I have expended My Soul and My Life to honour the Word, and honour the Cause of thy Lord, The Mighty, The Beneficent. If we see any one of the Branches in opposition to that which is desired by God, in truth We will expel him; and I am The Powerful and The Avenger. (Baha'i Prayers 9, p. 30) === If one of My sons should exceed beyond the ordinances of God, by God, My Eye shall not turn to him at all, and to this bear witness all the just and the informed. (Baha'i Prayers 9, p. 33) === Say: Oh people! then thank God for Its Manifestation (The Branch), for verily He is the Greatest Favour unto ye, and the most perfect Blessing for ye, and that by which every decayed bone is quickened. Whosoever faceth unto Him, hath surely faced unto God, and whosoever turneth away from Him, hath surely turned away from My Beauty and disbelieved in My Proof and is of the prodigal. Verily He is The Trust of God among ye, and His Deposit within ye, and His Appearance upon ye, and The Dawn among His servants who are nigh. (Baha'i Prayers 9, p. 22) == As to thy questions regarding My Son. Know that verily My Sons, if they follow the ordinances 27 of God, and exceed not that which is limited in Beyan -- the Book of God, The Protector and the Self-Subsistent; and if they command their own souls to that which is just; and if they forbid that which is forbidden; and if they witness to that which God hath witnessed in His firm, established and ordained Verses; and if they believe in Him Whom God shall cause to appear in the Day that will be counted of the earliest and of the latter time, in which all will contradict God, their Lord; and if they disagree not in the Cause of God; and if they bear not enmity to His ordained and decreed Law; then know that verily they will be the Leaves of the Tree of Unity, and Its Fruits, and by whom the clouds shall rain, and the sky shall lift with favour -- if ye are of the assured -- and they will be of the Family of God among ye, and His Household in your midst, (Baha'i Prayers 9, p. 26) My sadness is not for Myself, but for the One Who shall come after Me in the Shadow of the Command with Manifest and Evident Power. Verily there are who will not consent to His Manifestation, and will protest against His Verses, and will disbelieve His Proof, and will fight against His Person, and will use deceit in His Affair, just as they are inflicting upon Him in these days, and ye are witnessing thereto. (Baha'i Prayers 9, p. 29) This section of Bahai Prayers9 (aka Prayers, Tablets,Instructions and Miscellany) is a compilation of Baha'u'llah's tablets that was prepared by Abdu'l-Baha and given to a party of American pilgrims, with the command that they be translated and published. The translation is sometimes not the best, but the text themselves are authentic. Sen -- -- Sen McGlinn http://senmcglinn.wordpress.com *** When, however, thou dost contemplate the innermost essence of things, and the individuality of each, thou wilt behold the signs of thy Lord's mercy . . ." -- -- __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-523889-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http:/
Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites
The Baha'i Studies Listserv > I thought she became a Free Baha'i / Reform Baha'i: I don't think she started any organization. The Free Baha'is were established by Herman Zimmer who used Ruth White's ideas. That organization has long been defunct. The Reform Baha'is is Fred Glaysher's own invention. I would ask you once again, not to post their material here. We can discuss their ideas if people have questions about them, but don't cut and paste their stuff here. > __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-523875-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites
The Baha'i Studies Listserv I thought those were actual Unitarian Universalists. Due to there being a website now, even if he created it, Unitarian Universalists could be becoming Unitarian Baha'is. They do have a Yahoo group. Unitarian Universalist do tend to view they Unitarian Universalism as their primary religion and whatever else as secondary. A talk on Unitarian Universalism would require its own topic. Back to Unitarian Baha'is they believe Baha'u'llah, Abdu'l-Baha, Mirza Muhammad Ali. They believe that Abdu'l-Baha changing his succesor to Shoghi Effendi was superceding Baha'u'llah, that the religion is about Baha'u'llah and his writings, only Baha'u'llah's writings are sacred scripture, that no more anyrthing can be produced for another 1000 years atleast, etc. The Baha'i Studies Listserv > Ruth White and Mirza Ahmad Sohrab and Zimmer Hermann (this one iffy?) were > declared CB. Its Herman Zimmer, and yes he was declared a Covenant breaker. In regards to Ruth White and Herman Zimmer, Fred Glaysher has done more than steal their ideas. He set up bogus websites claiming to represent their long defunct organizations. He did that in regards to the Muhammad Ali as well. In so doing he could make it appear as though there are more divisions in the Baha'i community that currently exist. The fact is that neither Ruth White, Ahmad Sohrab, Herman Zimmer, or Muhammad Ali currently have any organization which follows them. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-523858-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites
The Baha'i Studies Listserv I thought she became a Free Baha'i / Reform Baha'i: Free Bahá'ís Reform Bahá'ís "To be a Bahá'í simply means to love all the world; to love humanity and try to serve it; to work for universal peace and universal brotherhood." - Abdu'l-Baha They claim to be the moderate, spiritual religion of Baha’u’llah and Abdu’l-Baha and clearly set a new course away from the fanatical and fundamentalist Islamist sect of the Haifans, based on their fraudulent will and testament, propagating a manipulative creed intended only to coerce the individual believer and subject him or her to the tyranny of an illegitimate and mutilated organization. They take their teachings from Ruth White, Mirza Ahmad Sohrab, Julie Chanler, etc. The books and publications of White, Sohrab, and Chanler have kept this vision alive, while the Baha’i upheavals and conflicts of the last three decades have led many thousands of Baha’is to experience for themselves the depth and degree to which the Faith of Baha’u’llah has been traduced and desecrated by people who seek to use and exploit it for their own worldly benefit, power, glory, and material gain. This group of Bahá'ís are led by Fredrick Glaysier. Reform Baha’i Articles The Divine Being has created a world of impermanence, evanescence, where nothing lasts forever, and all humanity is subjected to the vicissitudes of life, the fragility of health and constitution, the limits of human existence that He alone knows and sets. With an increasing sense of mortality, I feel it is incumbent upon me to set down, in writing, my own testimony of what I believe to be the truth about the Bahá'í Faith, having now been a member for over thirty years and having watched or participated in many struggles and debates and studied or watched those of many other souls in their search for truth and understanding. Thinking of Martin Luther and John Wesley, I feel it especially as a duty and obligation to leave a record of my views for the Reform Bahá'í Convocation, which, God willing, one day, shall convene to restore and revive the moderate, spiritual religion of Baha’u’llah and Abdu’l-Baha and clearly set a new course away from the fanatical and fundamentalist Islamist sect of the Haifans, based on their fraudulent will and testament, propagating a manipulative creed intended only to coerce the individual believer and subject him or her to the tyranny of an illegitimate and mutilated organization. Article I "The Revelation which, from time immemorial, hath been acclaimed as the Purpose and Promise of all the Prophets of God, and the most cherished Desire of His Messengers, hath now, by virtue of the pervasive Will of the Almighty and at His irresistible bidding, been revealed unto men. The advent of such a Revelation hath been heralded in all the sacred Scriptures." - Baha’u’llah. Article II Baha’u’llah’s appointed heir and interpreter is Abdu’l-Baha. Article III As scientifically judged by Dr. C. Ainsworth Mitchell, the purported will and testament of Abdu’l-Baha is a fraudulent document: That is to say, the writing does not agree with the hypothesis that it was all written by one person. "A minute comparison of the authenticated writing with the writing on every page of the alleged will... has failed to detect in any part of the will the characteristics of the writing of Abdu’l-Baha, as shown in the authenticated specimens." Dr. C. Ainsworth Mitchell, Report on the Writing Shown on the Photographs of the Alleged Will of Abdu'l-Baha, Library of Congress, 1930. Article IV The Baha’i organizations, based upon the fraudulent document, including the writings of Shoghi Effendi, are inescapably defective and deficient: "There is apparent contradiction between this section of the Will and his lifelong teachings. "Abdu'l-Bahá had never in speech or writing given the slightest indication that there would be a successor to himself. On the contrary, a number of addresses delivered by him on various occasions had made the opposite impression" - Mirza Ahmad Sohrab. The Will and Testament of Abdu'l-Bahá, An Analysis. New York: Universal Publishing, 1944. Article V The results of the spurious document has reverberated down the generations and decades, as Ruth White rightly perceived: “Whether the alleged will of Abdu'l-Bahá is authentic or spurious, the results of the administration of Shoghi Effendi and the National Spiritual Assembly of Baha'is stand as an historical indictment against them. [Boldface in original] They no more represent the Bahá'í Religion than the bigots of the dark ages of Christianity. - Ruth White. Abdu'l-Bahá's Questioned Will and Testament. Beverly Hills: White, 1946. Article VI "The Bahá'í Movement is not an organization. You cannot organize the Bahá'í Movement. - Abdu’l-Baha. The mystery of that paradox calls all Bahá'ís to seek its meaning and return to the universal, liberal Teachin
Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites
The Baha'i Studies Listserv > Ruth White and Mirza Ahmad Sohrab and Zimmer Hermann (this one iffy?) were > declared CB. Its Herman Zimmer, and yes he was declared a Covenant breaker. In regards to Ruth White and Herman Zimmer, Fred Glaysher has done more than steal their ideas. He set up bogus websites claiming to represent their long defunct organizations. He did that in regards to the Muhammad Ali as well. In so doing he could make it appear as though there are more divisions in the Baha'i community that currently exist. The fact is that neither Ruth White, Ahmad Sohrab, Herman Zimmer, or Muhammad Ali currently have any organization which follows them. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-523848-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites
The Baha'i Studies Listserv > Ruth White and Mirza Ahmad Sohrab were declared CB. He gets his ideas from > them. Dear Stephen, Yes, but this was longer after he had already left the Faith. And he ignores the fact that Ruth White and Ahmad Sohrab did not agree with each other. It was Ruth White who insisted that the Will and Testament was a forgery. Ahmad Sohrab, who could read the original, knew this wasn't the case. He just didn't want to obey the Guardian. Ruth White, by the way, eventually became a follower of Meher Baba. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-523846-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites
The Baha'i Studies Listserv > I would appreciate clear guidance on how to recognize the wheat from the > chaff! Dear Kathryn, There isn't any 'clear' guidance on this issue but if you have suspicions you can always contact the Baha'i Internet Agency. They pretty much keep up with what is on the internet. There are 'key words' which are often used by these groups which help me to spot them right away. For instance anyone purporting to be a Baha'i who goes on and on about the "Throne of David" is likely to be a Jensenite because this is something they are obsessed with. Anyone referring to mainstream Baha'is as "Haifan Baha'is" are likely to be hostile towards the Universal House of Justice whether they are declared Covenant breakers or not. Remeyites use terms like 'sans-Guardian' and 'heterodox' to refer to mainstream Baha'is. Then, of course, there are people like Stephen who may throw these terms around without having the foggiest idea who they imply. ;-} I would like to add here that if there are any questions people have regarding some of the material they read on the internet, they should feel free to raise them here. What I have *discouraged* is the posting of the URLs of Covenant breakers and those hostile towards the Faith or the Universal House of Justice. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-523819-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites
The Baha'i Studies Listserv > Dee Hock is the founder and the former CEO of Visa International and has a > very good book called, "The Birth of the Chaotic Age". He notes, "The > problem is never how to get new, innovative thoughts in your mind, but how > to get the old ones out." > > Problem with CBing materials is that they leave a permanent imprint in our > mind, bias our view and everything else we read is colored by that bias. > This not just true about CBer materials, but any sort of negative or attack > material. For instance, if I read "Obama is a smoker", the thought of him > being a smoker (not that there's really anything wrong with being a smoker) > lingers on and colors everything else I read or hear about Obama. Dear Ahang, More maliciously, think of how this crazy notion that Obama is not really a US citizen has caught hold, largely a result of the internet. The fact that his birth certificate has been widely published on the internet as well, does not change the effect that these accusations have had on a significant portion of the population. Recently at a Study Circle a new believer expressed concern as to whether Baha'is might be persecuted now that we have a "Muslim' as a president. When I pointed out that Obama wasn't a Muslim, that he was a member of the United Church of Christ, she insisted, "Why hasn't he produced his birth certificate." Offering to show her the birth certificate on the internet did nothing to change her mind. In cyberspace, the more things get repeated the more they get believed regardless of their merits. As for Obama's smoking I'm rather amused by the image of him sneaking an occasional cigarette on some porch of the White House hoping neither his wife or a reporter catches him. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-523840-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites
The Baha'i Studies Listserv The Baha'i Studies Listserv > Clues to what's not what it seems: > - references to the davidic kingship > - claims to be or speak for the guardian > - claims to be or speak for Hands of the Cause > - names such as 'orthodox bahai' / 'reformed bahai' / Bahais under > the Provisions of the Covenant (BUPC) > - derogatory names for Bahais, such as "Haifans" or "heterodox' > etc... > - conspiracy theories (Ruhiyyah Khanum murdered Shoghi Effendi; the > Hand of the Cause staged a coup... ) and disaster predictions (the > world will be struck by a meteor on such-and-such a date). >That is a pretty good list, though I should mention that the founder >of the so-called Reformed Baha'is has never been officially declared a >Covenant breaker. He was simply removed from the rolls after he >threatened to sue any member of the Baha'i Institutions who attempted >to contact him. Ruth White and Mirza Ahmad Sohrab and Zimmer Hermann (this one iffy?) were declared CB. He gets his ideas from them. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-523835-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites
The Baha'i Studies Listserv > Clues to what's not what it seems: > - references to the davidic kingship > - claims to be or speak for the guardian > - claims to be or speak for Hands of the Cause > - names such as 'orthodox bahai' / 'reformed bahai' / Bahais under > the Provisions of the Covenant (BUPC) > - derogatory names for Bahais, such as "Haifans" or "heterodox' > etc... > - conspiracy theories (Ruhiyyah Khanum murdered Shoghi Effendi; the > Hand of the Cause staged a coup... ) and disaster predictions (the > world will be struck by a meteor on such-and-such a date). >That is a pretty good list, though I should mention that the founder >of the so-called Reformed Baha'is has never been officially declared a >Covenant breaker. He was simply removed from the rolls after he >threatened to sue any member of the Baha'i Institutions who attempted >to contact him. Ruth White and Mirza Ahmad Sohrab were declared CB. He gets his ideas from them. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-523829-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites
The Baha'i Studies Listserv > I'm currenty this week archively reading most of the writings of Abdu'l-Baha > and comparing them to his Will & Testament. Dear Stephen, What specifically are you looking for here? warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-523827-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites
The Baha'i Studies Listserv > The problem is not so much to avoid reading the sites, as to know > what it is that you are reading, when people are trying to pass > themselves off as something else. While we are not strictly prohibited from reading Covenant breaking material we are discouraged from doing so in the strongest terms. It is for that reason I have insisted that their URLs not be posted here. > To make it doubly difficult, one of the "groups" (which may consist > of one person with a bee in his bonnet) uses a photograph of the > Bahai holy places on their sites, to give the impression that you are > looking at "their" headquarters in Haifa. I believe it was that very site which claimed to represent the "UHJ" which led to the current law suit which seeks to enforce the existing court order against the Remeyites. I'm not sure in the end that will succeed, however. While a strong case can be made that Joel Marangella's group was formed in order to avoid the consequences of that court order, the same cannot be said for the Jensenites who are responsible for the website you mention. The court order in question may not apply to them. > Clues to what's not what it seems: > - references to the davidic kingship > - claims to be or speak for the guardian > - claims to be or speak for Hands of the Cause > - names such as 'orthodox bahai' / 'reformed bahai' / Bahais under > the Provisions of the Covenant (BUPC) > - derogatory names for Bahais, such as "Haifans" or "heterodox' > etc... > - conspiracy theories (Ruhiyyah Khanum murdered Shoghi Effendi; the > Hand of the Cause staged a coup... ) and disaster predictions (the > world will be struck by a meteor on such-and-such a date). That is a pretty good list, though I should mention that the founder of the so-called Reformed Baha'is has never been officially declared a Covenant breaker. He was simply removed from the rolls after he threatened to sue any member of the Baha'i Institutions who attempted to contact him. > There's also at least one site that claims to speak for Jewish Bahais > and is, I think, probably a dirty tricks scheme by the Iranian > government's anti-bahai agency. It is not really intended to deceive > western Bahais I think; it exists so that the anti-bahai propaganda > in Persian can quote it as evidence of Bahai links to Israel. Yes, that does indeed appear to be the case. The English grammar on that website is really awful and photos are mislabeled. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-523826-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites
The Baha'i Studies Listserv > > Ian Kluge's Unofficial Orthodox Baha'i website tries to follow the BUPC > pattern of prophecy tieing in, in fact that is the whole concept of his > website. Dear Stephen, I'm not suggesting that Baha'is who are obsessed with prophecy are necessarily Covenant breakers, what I am suggesting is that among the Covenant breakers, only the Jensenites give this a lot of attention. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-523821-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites
The Baha'i Studies Listserv I'm currenty this week archively reading most of the writings of Abdu'l-Baha and comparing them to his Will & Testament. From: Sen & Sonja To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Tue, August 31, 2010 10:43:06 AM Subject: Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites The Baha'i Studies Listserv The problem is not so much to avoid reading the sites, as to know what it is that you are reading, when people are trying to pass themselves off as something else. To make it doubly difficult, one of the "groups" (which may consist of one person with a bee in his bonnet) uses a photograph of the Bahai holy places on their sites, to give the impression that you are looking at "their" headquarters in Haifa. Clues to what's not what it seems: - references to the davidic kingship - claims to be or speak for the guardian - claims to be or speak for Hands of the Cause - names such as 'orthodox bahai' / 'reformed bahai' / Bahais under the Provisions of the Covenant (BUPC) - derogatory names for Bahais, such as "Haifans" or "heterodox' etc... - conspiracy theories (Ruhiyyah Khanum murdered Shoghi Effendi; the Hand of the Cause staged a coup... ) and disaster predictions (the world will be struck by a meteor on such-and-such a date). There's also at least one site that claims to speak for Jewish Bahais and is, I think, probably a dirty tricks scheme by the Iranian government's anti-bahai agency. It is not really intended to deceive western Bahais I think; it exists so that the anti-bahai propaganda in Persian can quote it as evidence of Bahai links to Israel. Sen -- -- Sen McGlinn http://senmcglinn.wordpress.com All is to be yielded up, save only the *remembrance* of God; all is to be dispraised, except His praise. Today, to this melody of the Company on high, the world will leap and dance: `Glory be to my Lord, the All-Glorious!' (Selections from the Writings of `Abdu'l-Baha, p. 93) -- -- __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:skg_z...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-523814-1719008.2a3842ae5b2f7d34dd5fdfc724616...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-523820-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Ian s Unofficial Orthodox Baha'i website tries to follow the BUPC pattern of prophecy tieing in, in fact that is the whole concept of his website. http://home.comcast.net/~performancepoet/ From: Susan Maneck To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Tue, August 31, 2010 10:38:14 AM Subject: Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites The Baha'i Studies Listserv > Actually CB material isn't all negative. There are alot of attempts of > several groups to tie themselves into prophecies ie Bible, Apocrypha, > Qur'an, Hadith, etc. Dear Stephen, The only CB group I know of that spends a lot of energy trying to tie themselves in with the above are the Jensenite groups, I would have to disagree with you about them not being 'negative.' Without any proof whatsoever they frequently accuse Ruhiyyih Khanum of having murdered the Guardian! warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:skg_z...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-523811-1719008.2a3842ae5b2f7d34dd5fdfc724616...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:skg_z...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-523813-1719008.2a3842ae5b2f7d34dd5fdfc724616...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-523815-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites
The Baha'i Studies Listserv The problem is not so much to avoid reading the sites, as to know what it is that you are reading, when people are trying to pass themselves off as something else. To make it doubly difficult, one of the "groups" (which may consist of one person with a bee in his bonnet) uses a photograph of the Bahai holy places on their sites, to give the impression that you are looking at "their" headquarters in Haifa. Clues to what's not what it seems: - references to the davidic kingship - claims to be or speak for the guardian - claims to be or speak for Hands of the Cause - names such as 'orthodox bahai' / 'reformed bahai' / Bahais under the Provisions of the Covenant (BUPC) - derogatory names for Bahais, such as "Haifans" or "heterodox' etc... - conspiracy theories (Ruhiyyah Khanum murdered Shoghi Effendi; the Hand of the Cause staged a coup... ) and disaster predictions (the world will be struck by a meteor on such-and-such a date). There's also at least one site that claims to speak for Jewish Bahais and is, I think, probably a dirty tricks scheme by the Iranian government's anti-bahai agency. It is not really intended to deceive western Bahais I think; it exists so that the anti-bahai propaganda in Persian can quote it as evidence of Bahai links to Israel. Sen -- -- Sen McGlinn http://senmcglinn.wordpress.com All is to be yielded up, save only the *remembrance* of God; all is to be dispraised, except His praise. Today, to this melody of the Company on high, the world will leap and dance: `Glory be to my Lord, the All-Glorious!' (Selections from the Writings of `Abdu'l-Baha, p. 93) -- -- __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-523814-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Ian Kluge's Unofficial Orthodox Baha'i website tries to follow the BUPC pattern of prophecy tieing in, in fact that is the whole concept of his website. From: Susan Maneck To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Tue, August 31, 2010 10:38:14 AM Subject: Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites The Baha'i Studies Listserv > Actually CB material isn't all negative. There are alot of attempts of > several groups to tie themselves into prophecies ie Bible, Apocrypha, > Qur'an, Hadith, etc. Dear Stephen, The only CB group I know of that spends a lot of energy trying to tie themselves in with the above are the Jensenite groups, I would have to disagree with you about them not being 'negative.' Without any proof whatsoever they frequently accuse Ruhiyyih Khanum of having murdered the Guardian! warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:skg_z...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-523811-1719008.2a3842ae5b2f7d34dd5fdfc724616...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-523813-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites
The Baha'i Studies Listserv > Actually CB material isn't all negative. There are alot of attempts of > several groups to tie themselves into prophecies ie Bible, Apocrypha, > Qur'an, Hadith, etc. Dear Stephen, The only CB group I know of that spends a lot of energy trying to tie themselves in with the above are the Jensenite groups, I would have to disagree with you about them not being 'negative.' Without any proof whatsoever they frequently accuse Ruhiyyih Khanum of having murdered the Guardian! warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-523811-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Actually CB material isn't all negative. There are alot of attempts of several groups to tie themselves into prophecies ie Bible, Apocrypha, Qur'an, Hadith, etc. Only 10% or less of the material I have seen so far is negative. From: Ahang Rabbani To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Tue, August 31, 2010 9:35:44 AM Subject: Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites The Baha'i Studies Listserv I read a quote some time ago that speaks to Brent's point about avoiding certain sites and materials. Dee Hock is the founder and the former CEO of Visa International and has a very good book called, "The Birth of the Chaotic Age". He notes, "The problem is never how to get new, innovative thoughts in your mind, but how to get the old ones out." Problem with CBing materials is that they leave a permanent imprint in our mind, bias our view and everything else we read is colored by that bias. This not just true about CBer materials, but any sort of negative or attack material. For instance, if I read "Obama is a smoker", the thought of him being a smoker (not that there's really anything wrong with being a smoker) lingers on and colors everything else I read or hear about Obama. Which is why in politics, negative ads are so powerful and effective. Now, if I'm very knowledgeable about Mr. Obama and a huge fan, then the effect of negative comments about him are less or may be in fact negligible. But if I'm only a little familiar with him and his policies, then any negative comment will have a notable impact. CBer materials are like very negative ads. If a person is relatively new to the Bahai Faith and has not had a chance to read broadly and experience the Baha'i community, then negative comments will have a notable impact and will greatly cloud one's judgement. So, care and caution should be exercised. On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 7:31 AM, Brent Poirier wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv > >The danger in reading Covenant breaker sites is often not that the person will >be in danger of following these groups; it is that they destroy one's faith. > The confusing answers of Mr. Grey, and his statement that he is leaving >religion altogether, make the point very clearly. >' >One of the most malicious slanders of the Faith is the comparisons of the >Learned to the East German stazi or other tyrannical regimes. This prevents >the >believer from seeking support from the people most capable of giving it. > >As to the person who supposedly met a grandson of Abdu'l-Baha, whose father >broke the Covenant, and through whom he did not claim to be a Guardian. This >makes absolutely no sense. The children of Abdu'l-Baha were all daughters. > >It is more likely that it was a great grandson, and possibly one of them was, >for a time, faithful to the Covenant during the conversation he had with the >believer you know. But now all of the male descendants, down to the present >day, are out of the Faith (or at least that was the case up to a decade ago >when >I asked a House member). > >Brent > >__ >You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:ahang.rabb...@gmail.com >Unsubscribe: send a blank email to >mailto:leave-523726-1092882.b08fc62d23e686946d4de995cae13...@list.jccc.edu >Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu >Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st >Baha'i Studies is available through the following: >Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu >Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st >News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st >Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net >New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu > -- Ahang Rabbani, PhD http://ahang.rabbani.googlepages.com/ __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:skg_z...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-523784-1719008.2a3842ae5b2f7d34dd5fdfc724616...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'
Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites
The Baha'i Studies Listserv I have been avidly watching this conversation unfold, as the question of CB sites had come up just days before. I subscribe to Google alerts for Bahai articles and videos. Some of the sites I've visited look absolutely legitimate but still, I get a funny feeling. Often, I can't identify anything what feels wrong. I, too, am a relatively isolated believer with no LSA. There are a handful of us scattered across two counties but in different incorporated & rural areas. Although we keep the calendar together, we can't form a group. Our oldest member - in her 90s! - brought up the topic at last Feast. One of the group served several years on the Arc project in Haifa but she had no idea who is our ABM for Protection. (I've since learned by writing an old friend.) I would appreciate clear guidance on how to recognize the wheat from the chaff! I don't want to assume wrongly about a dedicated soul trying to share the Faith, but there is so much out there. I've been a Bahai 15 years with no easy access to a wide variety of materials until recently - the internet in the last year. I feel somewhat anxious wandering loose on the web because I'm old enough to understand how subtle and insidious the damage can be! I'm very grateful I was well grounded in my faith before finding these questionable "sources" - how would I know which to trust as a new believer when I don't know even now? Kathryn "Dedicate the precious days of your lives to the betterment of the world". ~ Bahá’u’lláh "I don't know what your destiny will be, but one thing I do know; the only ones among you who will be really happy are those who have sought and found how to serve."~ Albert Schweitzer www.bahai.org On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 04:31, Brent Poirier wrote: > The Baha'i Studies Listserv > > The danger in reading Covenant breaker sites is often not that the person > will be in danger of following these groups; it is that they destroy one's > faith. The confusing answers of Mr. Grey, and his statement that he is > leaving religion altogether, make the point very clearly. > ' > One of the most malicious slanders of the Faith is the comparisons of the > Learned to the East German stazi or other tyrannical regimes. This prevents > the believer from seeking support from the people most capable of giving it. > > As to the person who supposedly met a grandson of Abdu'l-Baha, whose father > broke the Covenant, and through whom he did not claim to be a Guardian. This > makes absolutely no sense. The children of Abdu'l-Baha were all daughters. > > It is more likely that it was a great grandson, and possibly one of them > was, for a time, faithful to the Covenant during the conversation he had > with the believer you know. But now all of the male descendants, down to > the present day, are out of the Faith (or at least that was the case up to a > decade ago when I asked a House member). > > Brent > > __ > You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:allaboutjoye1...@gmail.com > Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto: > leave-523726-2241165.3afeac45296046c4e2352da3d7e8d...@list.jccc.edu > Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to > ly...@list.jccc.edu > Or subscribe: > http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st > > > Baha'i Studies is available through the following: > Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu > Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st > > > News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st > > > Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net > > > New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu > > > __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-523789-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites
The Baha'i Studies Listserv I read a quote some time ago that speaks to Brent's point about avoiding certain sites and materials. Dee Hock is the founder and the former CEO of Visa International and has a very good book called, "The Birth of the Chaotic Age". He notes, "The problem is never how to get new, innovative thoughts in your mind, but how to get the old ones out." Problem with CBing materials is that they leave a permanent imprint in our mind, bias our view and everything else we read is colored by that bias. This not just true about CBer materials, but any sort of negative or attack material. For instance, if I read "Obama is a smoker", the thought of him being a smoker (not that there's really anything wrong with being a smoker) lingers on and colors everything else I read or hear about Obama. Which is why in politics, negative ads are so powerful and effective. Now, if I'm very knowledgeable about Mr. Obama and a huge fan, then the effect of negative comments about him are less or may be in fact negligible. But if I'm only a little familiar with him and his policies, then any negative comment will have a notable impact. CBer materials are like very negative ads. If a person is relatively new to the Bahai Faith and has not had a chance to read broadly and experience the Baha'i community, then negative comments will have a notable impact and will greatly cloud one's judgement. So, care and caution should be exercised. On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 7:31 AM, Brent Poirier wrote: > The Baha'i Studies Listserv > > The danger in reading Covenant breaker sites is often not that the person > will be in danger of following these groups; it is that they destroy one's > faith. The confusing answers of Mr. Grey, and his statement that he is > leaving religion altogether, make the point very clearly. > ' > One of the most malicious slanders of the Faith is the comparisons of the > Learned to the East German stazi or other tyrannical regimes. This prevents > the believer from seeking support from the people most capable of giving it. > > As to the person who supposedly met a grandson of Abdu'l-Baha, whose father > broke the Covenant, and through whom he did not claim to be a Guardian. This > makes absolutely no sense. The children of Abdu'l-Baha were all daughters. > > It is more likely that it was a great grandson, and possibly one of them > was, for a time, faithful to the Covenant during the conversation he had > with the believer you know. But now all of the male descendants, down to > the present day, are out of the Faith (or at least that was the case up to a > decade ago when I asked a House member). > > Brent > > __ > You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:ahang.rabb...@gmail.com > Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto: > leave-523726-1092882.b08fc62d23e686946d4de995cae13...@list.jccc.edu > Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to > ly...@list.jccc.edu > Or subscribe: > http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st > Baha'i Studies is available through the following: > Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu > Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st > News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st > Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net > New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu > -- Ahang Rabbani, PhD http://ahang.rabbani.googlepages.com/ __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-523784-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites
The Baha'i Studies Listserv The danger in reading Covenant breaker sites is often not that the person will be in danger of following these groups; it is that they destroy one's faith. The confusing answers of Mr. Grey, and his statement that he is leaving religion altogether, make the point very clearly. ' One of the most malicious slanders of the Faith is the comparisons of the Learned to the East German stazi or other tyrannical regimes. This prevents the believer from seeking support from the people most capable of giving it. As to the person who supposedly met a grandson of Abdu'l-Baha, whose father broke the Covenant, and through whom he did not claim to be a Guardian. This makes absolutely no sense. The children of Abdu'l-Baha were all daughters. It is more likely that it was a great grandson, and possibly one of them was, for a time, faithful to the Covenant during the conversation he had with the believer you know. But now all of the male descendants, down to the present day, are out of the Faith (or at least that was the case up to a decade ago when I asked a House member). Brent __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-523726-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
