Re: Responding with affection was [RE: Past Revelations] with references
It seems like something very different is being claimed by Bahais though. I don't think I've ever heard a Muslim call Muhammad the Revealor. God was the source of the revelation, it was conveyed by Gabriel, and given to Muhammad. (Saaws) Muhammad was more a passive recipient in the process. That is part of where the doctrine of illiteracy (ummi) really plays a role. Just as Mary is said to have conceived Christ in a way different from the way other men were conceived. The Quran was also conceived in a way different from how other books were conceived. But I've had the impression that Bahais seem to be thinking that in some sense the Quran comes *from* Muhammad himself. Peace Gilberto On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 20:37:52 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 1/8/2005 6:01:22 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Gilberto: Islamically the Quran wasn't written by Muhammad, it comes from God. Who said different. Muhammed is the Revealor and I refer to that as authorship. Actually, Gabriel revealed the Qur'an to Muhammed as is mentioned in the Qur'an. Regards, Scott__ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu -- My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Responding with affection was [RE: Past Revelations] with references
Gilberto, At 09:51 AM 1/9/2005, you wrote: It seems like something very different is being claimed by Bahais though. Very much so. Here are my own understandings: The Baha'i concept of divine Manifestation is probably closer to the mainline christologies of Protestantism, Roman Catholicism, and Eastern Orthodoxy, minus their incarnationist and anthropomorphic aspects, than it is to certain Islamic and Jewish views of Prophets as ordinary humans. The Prophet is a reflection of God. One might say that the mainline Christianities have been substantially correct about the station of Christ. However, they have been largely incorrect concerning the position of the Essence of God. Although God's Essence is not incarnated into His Manifestations, His Will and His Logos are incarnated into Them. One may, in a sense, call each of the Prophets God (or, as I prefer, our personal God), as long as one keeps in mind the distinction between divine Essence and divine Manifestation. In addition, each Manifestation is, to use my term, a product of a Prophetic ecology. On one level, the Prophet is an ordinary man encountering, or embedded and contextualized in, a family, community, society, and culture. His consciousness of His divine nature develops only gradually. On another level, the Prophet *is* the Word and Will of God, The dialectic or synergy between His divinity and humanity allows Him to interact with His fellow human beings. The Angel Gabriel does not refer to something apart from Muhammad. It was a metaphor for His divine nature, His Holy Spirit, which enabled Him, Mirza Husayn Ali (Baha'u'llah's human side), to deliver His message. Similar metaphors for Holy Spirits were, from a Baha'i perspective, used by Moses (the Burning Bush), by Zoroaster (the Sacred Fire), by Jesus (the Dove), by the Bab (His vision of the Imam Husayn), and by Baha'u'llah (His vision of the Maiden). With regards, Mark A. Foster 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Responding with affection was [RE: Past Revelations] with references
Oops! The Angel Gabriel does not refer to something apart from Muhammad. It was a metaphor for His divine nature, His Holy Spirit, which enabled Him, Mirza Husayn Ali (Baha'u'llah's human side), to deliver His message. I forgot I was talking about Muhammad. With regards, Mark A. Foster 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Responding with affection was [RE: Past Revelations] with references
On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 11:18:52 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto, At 09:51 AM 1/9/2005, you wrote: It seems like something very different is being claimed by Bahais though. Mark: Very much so. Here are my own understandings: The Baha'i concept of divine Manifestation is probably closer to the mainline christologies of Protestantism, Roman Catholicism, and Eastern Orthodoxy, minus their incarnationist and anthropomorphic aspects, than it is to certain Islamic and Jewish views of Prophets as ordinary humans. Gilberto: Ok Mark: The Prophet is a reflection of God. One might say that the mainline Christianities have been substantially correct about the station of Christ. However, they have been largely incorrect concerning the position of the Essence of God. Although God's Essence is not incarnated into His Manifestations, His Will and His Logos are incarnated into Them. One may, in a sense, call each of the Prophets God (or, as I prefer, our personal God), as long as one keeps in mind the distinction between divine Essence and divine Manifestation. Gilberto: But if there is this real distinction between the Manifestation and the Essence of God, what reason would there be to blur that distinction with language which could lead to confusion? Is it in order to make it easier for people who come from Incarnational types of backgrounds (Christians and Hindus I guess) feel more comfortable as if they don't have to give up as much? Mark: The Angel Gabriel does not refer to something apart from Muhammad. It was a metaphor for His divine nature, His Holy Spirit, which enabled Him, Mirza Husayn Ali (Baha'u'llah's human side), to deliver His message. Similar metaphors for Holy Spirits were, from a Baha'i perspective, used by Moses (the Burning Bush), by Zoroaster (the Sacred Fire), by Jesus (the Dove), by the Bab (His vision of the Imam Husayn), and by Baha'u'llah (His vision of the Maiden). Gilberto: It actually sounds alot like Crowley now. Didn't he have a similar conception. I forget the exact term now but one adopted the terminology of spirits and angels but it was really just an expression of your True Will? Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Responding with affection was [RE: Past Revelations] with references
Hi, Gilberto, At 11:47 AM 1/9/2005, you wrote: But if there is this real distinction between the Manifestation and the Essence of God, what reason would there be to blur that distinction with language which could lead to confusion? What language? Is it in order to make it easier for people who come from Incarnational types of backgrounds (Christians and Hindus I guess) feel more comfortable as if they don't have to give up as much? Not from my perspective, but I am not much of an apologist. It actually sounds alot like Crowley now. Didn't he have a similar conception. I forget the exact term now but one adopted the terminology of spirits and angels but it was really just an expression of your True Will? Yes, he even used the term maiden, coincidentally enough, but not in the same sense as Baha'u'llah. To Crowley, all these beings were simply names for expressions of one's true Will, which is why he regarded himself as a nominalist. (For some reason, a lot of writers don't seem to get that point.) With regards, Mark A. Foster 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Responding with affection was [RE: Past Revelations] with references
On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 12:08:31 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, Gilberto, At 11:47 AM 1/9/2005, you wrote: But if there is this real distinction between the Manifestation and the Essence of God, what reason would there be to blur that distinction with language which could lead to confusion? Mark: What language? Gilberto: When you say that the Manifestations can be called God. Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Responding with affection was [RE: Past Revelations] with references
At 01:25 PM 1/9/2005, you wrote: When you say that the Manifestations can be called God. Oh, okay. It is because Baha'u'llah has said that the Prophets can call Themselves God: Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: I am God, He, verily, speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto. For it hath been repeatedly demonstrated that through their Revelation, their attributes and names, the Revelation of God, His names and His attributes, are made manifest in the world. Thus, He hath revealed: Those shafts were God's, not Thine. And also He saith: In truth, they who plighted fealty unto Thee, really plighted that fealty unto God. And were any of them to voice the utterance, I am the Messenger of God, He, also, speaketh the truth, the indubitable truth. Even as He saith: Muhammad is not the father of any man among you, but He is the Messenger of God. Viewed in this light, they are all but Messengers of that ideal King, that unchangeable Essence. And were they all to proclaim, I am the Seal of the Prophets, they, verily, utter but the truth, beyond the faintest shadow of doubt. For they are all but one person, one soul, one spirit, one being, one revelation. They are all the manifestation of the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last, the Seen and the Hidden - all of which pertain to Him Who is the Innermost Spirit of Spirits and Eternal Essence of Essences. And were they to say, We are the Servants of God, this also is a manifest and indisputable fact. -- Baha'u'llah, Gleanings, p.54 He hath ordained that in every age and dispensation a pure and stainless Soul be made manifest in the kingdoms of earth and heaven. Unto this subtle, this mysterious and ethereal Being He hath assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself. He hath, moreover, conferred upon Him a double station. The first station, which is related to His innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself. To this testifieth the tradition: Manifold and mysterious is My relationship with God. I am He, Himself, and He is I, Myself, except that I am that I am, and He is that He is. And in like manner, the words: Arise, O Muhammad, for lo, the Lover and the Beloved are joined together and made one in Thee. He similarly saith: There is no distinction whatsoever between Thee and Them, except that They are Thy Servants. The second station is the human station, exemplified by the following verses: I am but a man like you. Say, praise be to my Lord! Am I more than a man, an apostle? These Essences of Detachment, these resplendent Realities are the channels of God's all-pervasive grace. Led by the light of unfailing guidance, and invested with supreme sovereignty, They are commissioned to use the inspiration of Their words, the effusions of Their infallible grace and the sanctifying breeze of Their Revelation for the cleansing of every longing heart and receptive spirit from the dross and dust of earthly cares and limitations. -- Baha'u'llah, Gleanings, pp.66-67) With regards, Mark A. Foster 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Responding with affection was [RE: Past Revelations] with references
On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 14:16:57 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 01:25 PM 1/9/2005, you wrote: When you say that the Manifestations can be called God. Oh, okay. It is because Baha'u'llah has said that the Prophets can call Themselves God: Sure I understand that. And what I'm saying is that it seems like there is a high potential for confusion. Peace Gilberto -- My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Responding with affection was [RE: Past Revelations] with references
Gilberto, At 02:30 PM 1/9/2005, you wrote: Sure I understand that. And what I'm saying is that it seems like there is a high potential for confusion. And there are different viewpoints on this subject among Baha'is. However, I am not sure that confusion is always a bad thing. With regards, Mark A. Foster 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Responding with affection was [RE: Past Revelations]
Dear Khazeh, My original question: So my question to you is whether you are willing to say: all that is vouchsafed [to Baháu'lláh] was indeed Mentioned before [to Muhammad]? Peace Gilberto http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist/m43251.html Dear Gilberto of course in the spirit of the passage you quote from the Holy Qur'an [41:43] the simple answer that you ask me to make is YES, YES. Gilberto: Ok. Then if all that was vouchsafed to Bahaullah was already mentioned to Muhammad, I just think it makes alot more sense for me to look to those great Muslim interpreters, scholars, and saints to unpack the meaning of the Quran and the sunnah. And nothing would be lost or missing by doing so. Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Responding with affection was [RE: Past Revelations] with references
Dear Khazeh, My original question: So my question to you is whether you are willing to say: all that is vouchsafed [to Baháu'lláh] was indeed Mentioned before [to Muhammad]? Peace Gilberto http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist/m43251.html Dear Gilberto of course in the spirit of the passage you quote from the Holy Qur'an [41:43] the simple answer that you ask me to make is YES, YES. Gilberto: Ok. Then if all that was vouchsafed to Baha'u'llah was already mentioned to Muhammad, I just think it makes alot more sense for me to look to those great Muslim interpreters, scholars, and saints to unpack the meaning of the Quran and the sunnah. And nothing would be lost or missing by doing so. Peace Gilberto Dear Gilberto you wrote ** I just think it makes a lot more sense for me to look to those great Muslim interpreters, scholars, and saints to unpack the meaning of the Quran and the Sunnah. And nothing would be lost or missing by doing so. ** Remember I cannot indicate or prescribe any course of action for you. I am your servant in the Cause of God. I am a mere transient dust in this ephemeral world. If it makes sense please do so. But I would be misleading you to say just rest with part of part of a single verse of this Mighty and All-embracing Divine Revelation. Dearest Gilbert all the other verses pertinent to this should be read perused, meditated upon. *** O My servants! The one true God is My witness! This most great, this fathomless and surging Ocean is near, astonishingly near, unto you. BEHOLD IT IS CLOSER TO YOU THAN YOUR LIFE-VEIN! SWIFT AS THE TWINKLING OF AN EYE YE CAN, IF YE BUT WISH IT, reach and partake of this imperishable favour, this God-given grace, this incorruptible gift, this most potent and unspeakably glorious bounty. (Baha'u'llah: Gleanings, Page: 326)*** O wayfarer in the path of God! Take thou thy portion of the ocean of His grace, and deprive not thyself of the things that lie hidden in its depths. Be thou of them that have partaken of its treasures. A dewdrop out of this ocean would, if shed upon all that are in the heavens and on the earth, suffice to enrich them with the bounty of God, the Almighty, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. With the hands of renunciation draw forth from its life-giving waters, and sprinkle therewith all created things, that they may be cleansed from all man-made limitations and may approach the mighty seat of God, this hallowed and resplendent Spot. (Baha'u'llah: Gleanings, Pages: 279-280) My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Responding with affection was [RE: Past Revelations]
Dear Khazeh, You cut and pasted the following assertion: On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 19:14:52 -, Khazeh Fananapazir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nowhere in the Gospels do we find any reference to the unity of nations or the unification of mankind as a whole. When Jesus spoke to those around Him, He addressed them primarily as individuals rather than as component parts of one universal, indivisible entity. The whole surface of the earth was as yet unexplored, and the organization of all its peoples and nations as one unit could, consequently, not be envisaged, how much less proclaimed or established. Gilberto: So one way to look at religious history is to strive and make distinctions among the various religions. You can choose to emphasize how religions are different from one another. You can say the second one is better than the first one. The third one is better than the second one. Another way to look at religions is to point to the similarities. You say that world unity wasn't envisioned in the Gospel but even in Judaism there is a concept of Tikkun Olam or repairing the world which I've been told is linguistically related to the original expression for the Bahai term ever advancing civilzation. The vision was already there in the past. They didn't need someone new to tell them about it. They just needed to pay attention to what they had. Even centuries before Jesus in the book of Isaiah the Jews envisioned how in the future Isaiah 2: [4] He shall judge between the nations, and shall decide for many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Responding with affection was [RE: Past Revelations]
On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 14:16:50 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 1/8/2005 1:13:34 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Gilberto: Ok. Then if all that was vouchsafed to Bahaullah was already mentioned to Muhammad, I just think it makes alot more sense for me to look to those great Muslim interpreters, scholars, and saints to unpack the meaning of the Quran and the sunnah. And nothing would be lost or missing by doing so. Scott: Baha`u'llah says the knowledge of all the Manifestations was perfect. The Revelation to mankind was complete in each one's Self. However, each manifestation revealed only what God directed Him to reveal. Therefore Muhammed's knowledge was complete, and God's Message was complete in Himself. However, what He revealed was limited as God directed. But the Quran says of itself: We did not leave anything out of this Book, then all will be gathered before their Lord [for judgement]. (6:38) Here's a story I like which I had discussed a bit on soc.religion.bahai. I think it would be interesting to mention it here: Hillel and Shammai were two great Jewish scholars of the past. It is said that, in the great days of Hillel and Shammai (before the time of Jesus) a man came to see Shammai and said, Teach me the torah while standing on one leg. Shammai promptly picked up a brick and hit the man on the side of the head and told him That is impossible, go and learn. The man then approached Hillel and asked the same of him, he promptly stood on one leg and said .Treat your neighbour as you would treat yourself (or in some versions, What is hateful to you, do not do to others'), that is the torah all the rest is just commentary. I really like Hillel's answer. I would say that in a real way there is a huge amount of content already contained in even just La ilaha illa Allah (No god but God) and the rest is commentary so even just sticking to the Quran is huge amount of fleshing out and unpacking. Alot more unpacking with details and examples can be seen if you include the volumes and volumes of hadith. I don't think anything is left out. Really. Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Responding with affection was [RE: Past Revelations]
On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 11:49:53 -0800 (PST), John Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto: Ok. Then if all that was vouchsafed to Bahaullah was already mentioned to Muhammad, I just think it makes alot more sense for me to look to those great Muslim interpreters, scholars, and saints to unpack the meaning of the Quran and the sunnah. And nothing would be lost or missing by doing so. John: But by only looking at the Qur'an, its interpreters, its scholars, its saints, etc., you will **not** know which of the verses/teachings to consider with the **appropriate** level of degree, emphasis and candor., to quote yourself. John: In other words, Allah has directly intervened through the revelation of Baha'u'llah to clarify those questions, those areas of uncertainty. Gilberto: IF you believe that God did that through Bahaullah and that he had that role, sure, that would end the debate. But that's a big if. Gilberto: But as a Muslim I can also look let myself be guided by the interpretations of Abu Hanifa, Imam Shafi, Al-Ghazzali, Rumi, Ibn al-Arabi, Shah Waliullah, Maturidi, etc. and one advantage is that it is much more clear and obvious that they are part of a common shared Islamic tradition. It's not the case that all of their followers are uniformly condemned as being outside the pale of Islam. John: Let me setup an analogy to explain this another way. (Setup 1) Lets say the Qur'an is the English alphabet A-Z. OK. (Setup 2) Lets also say that since there are different Muslim interpretations, from different Muslim scholars, saints, etc., that there are different ways to Understand the Holy Qur'an. Gilberto: I suspect you might have an exagerated sense of the extent to which this is problematic. There is a broad consensus about important matters. And the areas where scholars disagree generally aren't going to be worth fighting over. For example, just among sunnis (Ahl al sunnah wal jamaat) there are four different interpretations of the laws, four different rites (Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi, Hanbali) named after the founders. There may have been aberant periods of history where these differences were more contentious, but the norm is that followers of one school respect the rulings of the followers of the other school as valid. They can pray together, they can pray behind one another, they accept one another as sunni Muslims. Some of the differences are due to slight differences in the interpretive principles they apply to the Quran but those differences are not worth fighting over. This attitude even extended to theology. For sunnis there are two main schools. Ashari and Maturidi. Different ways of understanding God, morality, free-will, etc. Both both are considered valid. When the scholars disagreed they didn't say I'm the only Muslim and you are an unbeliever. There was politeness and adab. They said I believe I'm right with the possibility of being wrong. I believe you are wrong with the possibility of being right. John: So, the degree and emphasis that the various Qur'anic verses need to be understood are not all that clear. - To fit the analogy, lets symbolize this as the Qur'an being little wooden blocks of the English alphabet A-Z all thrown into a box. No one knows the order they are supposed to be in. One may ask, is Z, B, Q, F the correct order? Then the situation in Islam might be that all the scholars actually agree about the order of the letters from A to W, and some people think it should go X, Y, Z. But then another group thinks it should go Z, X, Y. But the two groups agree that they are not going to fight about it because they can still read one another's books, and they still agree about how all the words are spelled, and they only have minimal trouble using one another's dictionaries. But then the Bahai faith comes along and starts saying that the alphabet is supposed to go A, Z, X, Q, R, B, V, T, and then throws in some cyrillic characters in, etc.. The earlier groups had minor disagreements among themselves, but they all can agree that this new group is actually wrong. Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Responding with affection was [RE: Past Revelations]
Gilberto: I would say that in a real way there isa huge amount of content already contained in even just "La ilaha illaAllah" (No god but God) "and the rest is commentary" so even juststicking to the Quran is huge amount of fleshing out and unpacking.Alot more unpacking with details and examples can be seen if youinclude the volumes and volumes of hadith. I don't think anything isleft out. Really. John: To me,your statement is clear testimonyto the Perfection of the Holy Qur'an, the Infinite Power ofthe Wordsfrom God. Iwish that Icouldunveil even one ofthe infinite meanings behind the Qur'anic verses "la ilaha illa Allah" or "In the Name of God, the Beneficent, the Merciful", or the seemingly simple letters "Alif Lam Mim". John: And Iam overtaken with feelings of unworthiness for having been allowed to recognize the Manifestation of His Self and the Fountainhead of His Laws. Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Responding with affection was [RE: Past Revelations] with references
On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 19:24:15 -, Khazeh Fananapazir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Khazeh, My original question: So my question to you is whether you are willing to say: all that is vouchsafed [to Baháu'lláh] was indeed Mentioned before [to Muhammad]? Peace Gilberto http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist/m43251.html Dear Gilberto of course in the spirit of the passage you quote from the Holy Qur'an [41:43] the simple answer that you ask me to make is YES, YES. Gilberto: Ok. Then if all that was vouchsafed to Baha'u'llah was already mentioned to Muhammad, I just think it makes alot more sense for me to look to those great Muslim interpreters, scholars, and saints to unpack the meaning of the Quran and the sunnah. And nothing would be lost or missing by doing so. Khazeh: Dear Gilberto you wrote ** I just think it makes a lot more sense for me to look to those great Muslim interpreters, scholars, and saints to unpack the meaning of the Quran and the Sunnah. And nothing would be lost or missing by doing so. Khazeh: Remember I cannot indicate or prescribe any course of action for you. I am your servant in the Cause of God. I am a mere transient dust in this ephemeral world. If it makes sense please do so. OK. But I would be misleading you to say just rest with part of part of a single verse of this Mighty and All-embracing Divine Revelation. Gilberto: But Muslims aren't just resting with a part. Remember, we agreed. ALL that is vouchsafed to Baháu'lláh was indeed Mentioned before to Muhammad. ALL of it. There is nothing missing. And in the Quran it says: We did not leave anything out of this Book, then all will be gathered before their Lord [for judgement]. (6:38) Even if you want to say that it isn't enough to consult the Quran and you want to read more writings for guidance, there are plenty of materials by Muslim awliya which give out details, and explanations, and go into the topics of the Quran with more and more depth. Besides, is more revelation really the problem here? Maybe it's just me, but from my perspective, humanity's biggest problem isn't ignorance as much as forgetfulness. As human beings, to a large degree I think we know what we ought to be doing. We know we shouldn't steal and murder. We know we shouldn't exploit and take advantage of other people. We know we should try to get along better with our fellow man. We know we should be more generous and fight less. We know we shouldn't lie. What we need is to figure out how to do the things we already know we are supposed to be doing. And I'm not persuaded that we need a new revelation in order to accomplish that. Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Responding with affection was [RE: Past Revelations] with references
In a message dated 1/8/2005 3:41:20 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But Muslims aren't just resting with a part. Remember, we agreed. ALLthat is vouchsafed to Baháu'lláh was indeed Mentioned before toMuhammad. ALL of it. There is nothing missing.And in the Quran it says:We did not leave anything out of this Book, then all will be gatheredbefore their Lord [for judgement]. (6:38) It is like Christ saying: "I have many things to tell you now, but you cannot bear them." Muhammed left NOTHING out that He was bidden to write down by God. Was that ALL Muhammed was aware of? I do not think so. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Responding with affection was [RE: Past Revelations]
In a message dated 1/8/2005 2:59:21 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But the Quran says of itself:We did not leave anything out of this Book, then all will be gatheredbefore their Lord [for judgement]. (6:38) Muhammed did not leave anything out of the Book that He was told to reveal. 042.052 PICKTHAL: And thus have We inspired in thee (Muhammad) a Spirit of Our command. Thou knewest not what the Scripture was, nor what the Faith. But We have made it a light whereby We guide whom We will of Our bondmen. And lo! thou verily dost guide unto a right path, 057.016 YUSUFALI: Has not the Time arrived for the Believers that their hearts in all humility should engage in the remembrance of Allah and of the Truth which has been revealed (to them), and that they should not become like those to whom was given Revelation aforetime, but long ages passed over them and their hearts grew hard? For many among them are rebellious transgressors. 069.040 PICKTHAL: That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger. 069.041 PICKTHAL: It is not poet's speech - little is it that ye believe! 069.042 PICKTHAL: Nor diviner's speech - little is it that ye remember! 069.043 PICKTHAL: It is a revelation from the Lord of the Worlds. 069.044 PICKTHAL: And if he had invented false sayings concerning Us, 069.045 PICKTHAL: We assuredly had taken him by the right hand 069.046PICKTHAL: And then severed his life-artery, 069.047 PICKTHAL: And not one of you could have held Us off from him. 069.048 PICKTHAL: And lo! it is a warrant unto those who ward off (evil). 069.049PICKTHAL: And lo! We know that some among you will deny (it). 069.050 PICKTHAL: And lo! it is indeed an anguish for the disbelievers. 069.051 PICKTHAL: And lo! it is absolute truth. 069.052 PICKTHAL: So glorify the name of thy Tremendous Lord. Muhammed revealed only what God bade Him reveal, whatever else He might have known. Baha`u'llah makes it clear that no Messenger speaks other than that which He is instructed to say. This is true of EACH revelation. One hears Baha`u'llah make the claim to be a Messenger and accepts it or denies it. Some choose one way and some the other. That is between each individual and God. I believe God's Mercy is as boundless as His Justice. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Responding with affection was [RE: Past Revelations]
On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 17:43:50 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 1/8/2005 2:59:21 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But the Quran says of itself: We did not leave anything out of this Book, then all will be gathered before their Lord [for judgement]. (6:38) Muhammed did not leave anything out of the Book that He was told to reveal. I don't think that the verses you point to encourage or require the kind of reading you are talking about. It doesn't seem to make sense to think that Muhammad was omniscient but then held back important spiritual truths from the ummah. The Quran doesn't suggest it. Peace Gilberto 042.052 PICKTHAL: And thus have We inspired in thee (Muhammad) a Spirit of Our command. Thou knewest not what the Scripture was, nor what the Faith. But We have made it a light whereby We guide whom We will of Our bondmen. And lo! thou verily dost guide unto a right path, 057.016 YUSUFALI: Has not the Time arrived for the Believers that their hearts in all humility should engage in the remembrance of Allah and of the Truth which has been revealed (to them), and that they should not become like those to whom was given Revelation aforetime, but long ages passed over them and their hearts grew hard? For many among them are rebellious transgressors. 069.040 PICKTHAL: That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger. 069.041 PICKTHAL: It is not poet's speech - little is it that ye believe! 069.042 PICKTHAL: Nor diviner's speech - little is it that ye remember! 069.043 PICKTHAL: It is a revelation from the Lord of the Worlds. 069.044 PICKTHAL: And if he had invented false sayings concerning Us, 069.045 PICKTHAL: We assuredly had taken him by the right hand 069.046 PICKTHAL: And then severed his life-artery, 069.047 PICKTHAL: And not one of you could have held Us off from him. 069.048 PICKTHAL: And lo! it is a warrant unto those who ward off (evil). 069.049 PICKTHAL: And lo! We know that some among you will deny (it). 069.050 PICKTHAL: And lo! it is indeed an anguish for the disbelievers. 069.051 PICKTHAL: And lo! it is absolute truth. 069.052 PICKTHAL: So glorify the name of thy Tremendous Lord. Muhammed revealed only what God bade Him reveal, whatever else He might have known. Baha`u'llah makes it clear that no Messenger speaks other than that which He is instructed to say. This is true of EACH revelation. One hears Baha`u'llah make the claim to be a Messenger and accepts it or denies it. Some choose one way and some the other. That is between each individual and God. I believe God's Mercy is as boundless as His Justice. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu -- My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Responding with affection was [RE: Past Revelations] recalling 6:154 as well as 6:38]
In message http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist/m43290.html Dear Gilberto you make several points. This servant, again in the spirit of amity and affectionate dialogue will remember! And number them and make some replies. Please God you will look at them with a kindly gaze. Gilberto: Point 1] But Muslims aren't just resting with a part. Remember, we agreed. ... [khazeh replying lovingly]: when I said part of it the it referred to the Bahaullah Passage that you appear to like. And by part I mean your appreciation of the first part of the three verse passage quoted at the end of this letter again [fully!] Gilberto Simpson Point 2] ALL that is vouchsafed to Baháu'lláh was indeed Mentioned before to Muhammad. ALL of it. There is nothing missing. [khazeh humbly]. There is naught missing but the rest of the verse from the Iqtidaaraat is not looked at by your good self so far. Gilberto Simpson Point 3] And in the Quran it says: We did not leave anything out of this Book, then all will be gathered before their Lord [for judgement]. (6:38) [khazeh kindly]. We did not leave anything out. Yes certainly dear brother. But using the same logic, the exact syllogism, the Jews said that the Holy Quran affirms most strongly that their Book [the Old Testament/the Tenakh/the Torah] had EVERYTHING COMPLETELY _ NOTHING WAS LEFT OUT OF THE TORAH. Therefore a fortiori [as they say in logic] people should stay with the Torah because the Quran affirms it was all there before. 006.154 YUSUFALI: Moreover, We gave Moses the Book, completing (Our favour) to those who would do right, AND EXPLAINING ALL THINGS IN DETAIL,- and a guide and a mercy, that they might believe in the meeting with their Lord. PICKTHAL: Again, We gave the Scripture unto Moses, COMPLETE for him who would do good, AN EXPLANATION OF ALL THINGS, A GUIDANCE AND A MERCY, that they might believe in the meeting with their Lord. SHAKIR: Again, WE GAVE THE BOOK TO MUSA TO COMPLETE (OUR BLESSINGS) ON HIM WHO WOULD DO GOOD (TO OTHERS), and making plain all things and a guidance and a mercy, so that they should believe in the meeting of their Lord. 154. Thumma atayna Moosa alkitaba tamaman AAala allathee ahsana watafseelan likulli shay-in wahudan warahmatan So the Text of the Quran says the Book of Moses was TAMAAM complete [nothing left out]. It repeats again in the same verse : The Book of Moses was TAFSEELAN LIKULLI SHAIN = AN EXPLANATION OF ALL THINGS So this servant would say by this logic of quoting 6:38 they would go on to say look: we have priority and Our Book is complete. and so on Remember dearest I am not arguing. I am just offering what I think are true insights Gilberto Simpson Point 4] Maybe it's just me, but from my perspective, humanity's biggest problem isn't ignorance as much as forgetfulness. As human beings, to a large degree I think we know what we ought to be doing. We know we shouldn't steal and murder. We know we shouldn't exploit and take advantage of other people. We know we should try to get along better with our fellow man. We know we should be more generous and fight less. We know we shouldn't lie. What we need is to figure out how to do the things we already know we are supposed to be doing. And I'm not persuaded that we need a new revelation in order to accomplish that. http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist/m43290.html [khazeh] in reply to Point 4. The latest Revelation confirms the ethics of the past the reminding that the Comforter was to accomplish. I am a Bahai so with great affection, from my perspective [as you kindly mentioned your perspective above] this applies: Namely: Does not the very operation of the world-unifying forces that are at work in this age necessitate that He Who is the Bearer of the Message of God [Bahaullah] in this day should not only REAFFIRM that self-same exalted standard of individual conduct inculcated by the Prophets gone before Him, but embody in His appeal, to all governments and peoples, THE ESSENTIALS OF THAT SOCIAL CODE, THAT DIVINE ECONOMY, which must guide humanity's concerted efforts in establishing that all-embracing federation which is to signalize the advent of the Kingdom of God on this earth? (The Writings) Again in http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist/m43290.html you say Gilberto Point 5] *there are plenty of materials by Muslim awliya which give out details, and explanations, and go into the topics of the Quran with more and more depth.** [khazeh] replies lovingly: You seem to have a high regard for the Muslim Awliya [Saints/Holy Ones/Plural of Wali]. This is wonderful. But let me share with you something from one of these Awliyaas. Some would say the Noblest Highest Khaatam al Awliyaa [the Seal of all the Awliya] namely Ibn Arabi. I have here on the shelf all his books have read them since 30 years. In his biggest book Futuuh.aat in the Chapter 366 He says: **after the disciples of the Mahdi are slain [martyred] Waah.idun minhum
Re: Responding with affection was [RE: Past Revelations] with references
In a message dated 1/8/2005 6:01:22 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Gilberto:Islamically the Quran wasn't written by Muhammad, it comes from God. Who said different. Muhammed is the Revealor and I refer to that as authorship. Actually, Gabriel revealed the Qur'an to Muhammed as is mentioned in the Qur'an. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Responding with affection was [RE: Past Revelations]
Gilberto: It doesn't seem to make sense to think that Muhammad was omniscient but then held back important spiritual truths from the ummah. The Quran doesn't suggest it. John: It is explained by the Qur'an as the Qiyamah, Surah 75. "1. I swear by the Day of Resurrection; 2. And I swear by the self-reproaching person (a believer). 3. Does man (a disbeliever) think that We shall not assemble his bones? 4. Yes, We are Able to put together in perfect order the tips of his fingers. 5. Nay! (Man denies Resurrection and Reckoning. So) he desires to continue committing sins. 6. He asks: "When will be this Day of Resurrection?" 7. So, when the sight shall be dazed, 8. And the moon will be eclipsed, 9. And the sun and moon will be joined together (by going one into the other or folded up or deprived of their light, etc.) 10. On that Day man will say: "Where (is the refuge) to flee?" 11. No! There is no refuge! 12. Unto your Lord (Alone) will be the place of rest that Day. 13. On that Day man will be informed of what he sent forward (of his evil or good deeds), and what he lef! t behind (of his good or evil traditions)." Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Responding with affection was [RE: Past Revelations]
On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 17:43:47 -0800 (PST), John Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto: It doesn't seem to make sense to think that Muhammad was omniscient but then held back important spiritual truths from the ummah. The Quran doesn't suggest it. John: It is explained by the Qur'an as the Qiyamah, Surah 75. Could you specifically point to which verse you have in mind and how it points to what we are talking about? PEace GIlberto 1. I swear by the Day of Resurrection; 2. And I swear by the self-reproaching person (a believer). 3. Does man (a disbeliever) think that We shall not assemble his bones? 4. Yes, We are Able to put together in perfect order the tips of his fingers. 5. Nay! (Man denies Resurrection and Reckoning. So) he desires to continue committing sins. 6. He asks: When will be this Day of Resurrection? 7. So, when the sight shall be dazed, 8. And the moon will be eclipsed, 9. And the sun and moon will be joined together (by going one into the other or folded up or deprived of their light, etc.) 10. On that Day man will say: Where (is the refuge) to flee? 11. No! There is no refuge! 12. Unto your Lord (Alone) will be the place of rest that Day. 13. On that Day man will be informed of what he sent forward (of his evil or good deeds), and what he lef! t behind (of his good or evil traditions). Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu -- My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Responding with affection was [RE: Past Revelations]
John: It is explained by the Qur'an as the Qiyamah, Surah 75. Gilberto: Could you specifically point to which verse you have in mind and howit points to what we are talking about? John: What I meant wasthat there are things that will take placeduringQiyamah thatare beyond the Qur'an.__Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Responding with affection was [RE: Past Revelations] recalling 6:154 as well as 6:38]
Dear Khazeh, I'll focus on the more essential aspects to hopefully not get caught up in details and stick to the more central issues. On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 01:06:34 -, Khazeh Fananapazir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In message http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist/m43290.html Dear Gilberto you make several points. This servant, again in the spirit of amity and affectionate dialogue will remember! And number them and make some replies. Please God you will look at them with a kindly gaze. Gilberto: Point 1] But Muslims aren't just resting with a part. Remember, we agreed. [khazeh replying lovingly]: when I said part of it the it referred to the Baha'u'llah Passage that you appear to like. And by part I mean your appreciation of the first part of the three verse passage quoted at the end of this letter again [fully!] Gilberto: First things first. If you think the passage forms a unit then it is good to understand each of its parts. Point 2] ALL that is vouchsafed to Baháu'lláh was indeed Mentioned before to Muhammad. ALL of it. There is nothing missing. [khazeh humbly]. There is naught missing but the rest of the verse from the Iqtidaaraat is not looked at by your good self so far. Gilberto: I've read the whole passage which you shared. I commented on part of it because it seemed the most relevant. Point 3] And in the Quran it says: We did not leave anything out of this Book, then all will be gathered before their Lord [for judgement]. (6:38) [khazeh kindly]. We did not leave anything out. Yes certainly dear brother. But using the same logic, the exact syllogism, the Jews said that the Holy Qur'an affirms most strongly that their Book [the Old Testament/the Tenakh/the Torah] had EVERYTHING COMPLETELY _ NOTHING WAS LEFT OUT OF THE TORAH. Therefore a fortiori [as they say in logic] people should stay with the Torah because the Qur'an affirms it was all there before. Gilberto: I follow your logic and I actually would agree with your conclusion up to a certain point, but there is a difference. I actually believe that the original Torah should be thought of as the word of God just as much as the Quran. I would assume that in it one could find great depth and wisdom that could guide one to living a life pleasing to God. I actually believe that there is a lot which is beautiful and spiritual in Judaism which Christians don't appreciate. I actually wouldn't try to demean the Torah by saying that the Torah isn't suitable for cities or in a world with modern technology. One issue which should be raised however, is that the Torah was a revelation given to Moses. But if you actually study the history of the text and modern Biblical scholarship, virtually no Biblical scholar actually believes that the current first five books of the Bible (the Penteteuch) was entirely written by Moses (as). The most widely accepted understanding is something called the documentary hypothesis. Where scholars have traced the contributions of 4 different authors and styles in the book. And there are indications that these 4 source materials weren't combined until several centuries after Moses. So I'm sure that at least part of the original Torah of Moses is contained in the Penteteuch but I don't think that the PEnteteuch is the same as the Torah. Moreover, as I mentioned before, I really liked the story of Hillel. If a Jewish person wanted to say that all of Judaism could be summed up with that which would be hateful to you, do not do to others and they wanted to say that was a complete religion I actually don't think I would want to argue with them (Especially if they were serious and thorough about how they did it). (While discussing this issue in soc.religion.islam earlier I was pleasantly surprised to learn that there actually was an attempt to make a religion of Hillelism.) 006.154 YUSUFALI: Moreover, We gave Moses the Book, completing (Our favour) to those who would do right, AND EXPLAINING ALL THINGS IN DETAIL,- and a guide and a mercy, that they might believe in the meeting with their Lord. Yes, I would actually accept that and have no problem with that verse. I think the basic idea of perennialism actually fits in rather well with the Quran. The same essential truths which were given to Muhammad, were also given to Jesus, were also given to Moses, was also given to all the prophets. For me personally, the main thing Islam has going for it is that the teachings were clearly and faithfully transmitted. I wouldn't say the same thing about Christianity and Judaism. Although in their original forms they would have been essentially the same teachings as Islam. So this servant would say by this logic of quoting 6:38 they would go on to say look: we have priority and Our Book is complete. Firstly, I don't think time is a big factor. Just because they are first doesn't give them any automatic credit. Just as the recentness of the Bahai faith gives them any
Re: Responding with affection was [RE: Past Revelations]
G: Could you specifically point to which verse you have in mind and howit points to what we are talking about? J: (1) On Al-Qiyamatu'l Udhma, the Great Resurrection, God will say things and answer questions that are not in the Qur'an: [2:210] : Will they wait until Allah comes to them in canopies of clouds, with angels (in His train) and the question is (thus) settled? but to Allah do all questions go back (for decision). (2) On Al-Qiyamatu'l Udhma, there will be proclamations (mighty Blast from the Caller) that are not in the Qur'an: [50:41-2]: And listen for the Day when the Caller will call out from a place quiet near,- The Day when they will hear a (mighty) Blast in (very) truth: that will be the Day of Resurrection. (3) On Al-Qiyamatu'l Udhma, everyone will die and be resurrectionon an earth that will shine in a new way. [39:68-69]: "And there shall be a blast on the Trumpet, and all who are in the Heaven and all who are on the earth shall expire, save those whom God shall vouchsafe to live. Then shall there be another blast on it, and lo! arising they shall gaze around them: and the earth shall shine with the light of her Lord." Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu