Re: Resurrection of Christ
Dear Brent,, Allah'uBah I prya youa re well.. Thanks for this note and the lovley paper about the Bible and the Iqan i willstart to reread it tonight O Brent, adear BAhai friend of mine MArtha MAny Gray Horses formerly of Alb,, is now in Tucson She has been work at a college of th etOhana Odum tribe HSe has been fired without due cause and also wihtout due process. She moved here from MOntana to begin work here in JUne2006. So it was a great expenses She does not want the ob back but wnats some compensatin CAn you suggets any Bahais who do civil Liberties work Also will she need ot ahve an Az. lawyer any suggetsions Lets ask Louis grgeory for help,, Let me know any leads Iam tutoring at middle school..I love it one to one work and i tutor math many prayer to you PS who is the Cinvnetion delegate Sharon EWing is the delegate here the first ever woman delegate from Tucson loving pryaers and fond memories MAria LUisa MArtha got the notice today -- Original Message -- From: Brent Poirier [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 06:40:57 - why don't the resurrection narratives have the disciples going deaf and blind after Jesus died and then receiving sight and hearing? Shouldn't there be some consistency? Also, why aren't there any stories of the disciples being deaf and blind initially? I suggest that these are the verses being referred to. After the crucifixion, Mary Magdalene went to the garden and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus. (John 20:14) She thought Him to be the gardener. That is, she saw Him but did not recognize Him. Then in John 20:16 and 20:18 Mary recognizes her Lord and realizes He is eternal in being. She returns and tells the disciples, and they see Him (John 20:20). Also after the crucifixion, two believers were walking on the road to Emmaus; suddenly Jesus was walking with them, but they did not recognize Him. Then they ate bread and their eyes were opened and they recognized Him: And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them. But their eyes were held that they should not know him And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them. And their eyes were opened, and they knew him... Luke 24:13-31 Also in Luke Chapter 24 verses 39-44, the disciples eat bread with Jesus and believe in Him. Likewise during the days of Joseph there was a famine in the land of Canaan and the brothers of Joseph came to Him for food (Genesis 42:5). And Joseph saw his brethren, and he knew them, but made himself strange unto them, and spake roughly unto them; and he said unto them, 'Whence came ye?' And they said, 'From the land of Canaan to buy food.' And Joseph knew his brethren, but they knew not him. Joseph then gave them bread, and revealed Himself to His brothers, saying There will I nourish thee... And, behold, your eyes see. (Genesis 45:11-12). I have some notes on this at: http://bahai-library.com/?file=poirier_iqan_unsealing_bible that you may find useful. Use them as you wish. Brent The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i
Re: Resurrection of Christ
Yes Susan, I am in agreement that visions are not accepted as physical matter. Was it not the misinterpreted seeing of Him that was understood to be a physical body resurrected, rather than the spiritual vision of spiritual matter? There are three kinds of seeing -- seeing a person in the physical sense, with physical eyes -- seeing a vision -- seeing meaning faith, meaning recognition of the station of the Manifestation. It is this third kind that is referred to when Christ says The people have eyes, but do not see. Blessed are your eyes for they see. This seeing and these eyes are not the physical eyes, and not seeing a vision. It means perception. (Respectfully, I personally do not see support in the Baha'i Writings for the appearances of Christ being visions of spiritual matter.) And in the Gospels, sometimes this third kind of seeing or recognition is referred to as recognition, as in the verse just quoted. However, sometimes it is symbolically represented, by depicting a believer who sees Jesus, but does not recognize Him. This is presented as a physical thing, that the believer physically sees Jesus, but does not physically recognize Him. The Guardian says these should be understood allegorically; though the text of the Gospel gives no hint that it should be understood allegorically; presenting it as a physical event. So, the Gospel says that Mary Magdalene saw Jesus in the garden, but didn't recognize Him; and the disciples on the road to Emmaus saw him but their eyes were holden and they did not recognize Him until He gave them bread. Then their eyes were opened and they recognized Him. In the paper I wrote, The Kitab-i-Iqan, the Key to Unsealing the Mysteries of the Holy Bible I go into this more fully, with more Bible quotations. http://bahai-library.com/?file=poirier_iqan_unsealing_bible For me, the key to understanding this is this letter on behalf of Shoghi Effendi: We do not believe that there was a bodily resurrection after the crucifixion of Christ, but that there was a time after His ascension when His disciples perceived spiritually His true greatness and realized He was eternal in being. This is what has been reported symbolically in the New Testament and been misunderstood. His eating with His disciples after resurrection is the same thing. From a letter on behalf of the Guardian, High Endeavours pp. 69-70, Lights of Guidance, 2nd Edition, p. 368 The only way that the disciples spiritually recognizing Jesus can be the same thing as eating with Him, is if the seeing and the eating are understood symbolically; such as when the disciples ate with Jesus after His resurrection, and recognized Him after they ate bread, and Mary told them what she had seen. And this is why the times when people saw Jesus after His crucifixion and resurrection, were all appearances to believers: This is because these were not appearances in the physical sense of the word; nor were these visions. Rather, these are allegorical depictions of these believers regaining their faith and steadfastness, realizing the eternity of Christ, and seeing Him in that sense. In that sense, a non-believer could not see Jesus, by definition, because a person who sees Jesus means a person who believes in Him; and that is why the Bible contains no such reference. These are the appearances of Christ after His resurrection -- all to believers, which I copied from a study Bible: To Mary Magdalene (Matthew 16:9, John 20:11-18); To other women believers (Matthew 28:9-10); To two disciples on the road to Emmaus (Luke 24:13-35); To Peter (Luke 24:34); To ten disciples (John 20:19-25); To eleven disciples (John 20:26); To the Apostles at the Sea of Tiberias (John 21:1-25); The great commission to the disciples at Galilee (Matthew 28:16-20); To five hundred believers (1 Corinthians 15:6); To all the apostles (Acts 1:4-11); To James (1 Corinthians 15:7); To Paul (Acts 9:3-6, 1 Corinthians 15:8); To John (Revelation 1:10-18). Again, these appearances were neither physical events nor visions. This, according to the quote from Shoghi Effendi above, means that these people perceived spiritually His true greatness and realized He was eternal in being. Brent The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you
what is a vision? was Re: Resurrection of Christ
So what happened when someone says they saw a vision? Is it a God-induced hallucination only visible to one person? Is it an appearance visible to many people? What about these resurrection experiences? Physical? -G On 10/12/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If we are talking about a vision, I'm not sure what physical versus spiritual means. Visions are not physical to begin with. But there is a long tradition both in the gnostic texts and in the orthodox canon of Jesus appearing after the crucifixtion as a being of light. In fact, He apparently was appearing to early Christians so frequently that Luke felt he had to put a lid on it by saying that Jesus ascended after thirty days (and therefore these appearances should stop.) warmest, Susan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu -- There are no poets __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: what is a vision? was Re: Resurrection of Christ
So what happened when someone says they saw a vision? Is it a God-induced hallucination only visible to one person? Is it an appearance visible to many people? What about these resurrection experiences? Physical? Dear Gilberto, I'm suggesting we don't really know. When Muhammad saw Jabreel was anyone else up there on the mountain to witness it? warmest, Susan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Resurrection of Christ
Dear Brent, I don't think that what the Baha'i Writings say about the Resurrection necessitate visionary experiences of the Resurrected Christ, but I don't think they preclude them either. My conclusions in this regard are based primarily on the historical evidence. warmest, Susan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
what is a vision? was Re: Resurrection of Christ
Hi Gilberto,So what happened when someone says they "saw a vision"? Is it aGod-induced hallucination only visible to one person? Is it anappearance visible to many people? I don't think it's necessary or useful for others to attempt to define what really happened when someone says they had a vision, unless the vision-seer tries to use that to affect other peoples lives. Aside from that, I think it's fruitless to try to define what another person's vision "really was". Even the person who had the vision may not be sure.On the other hand, if a person who had a vision uses that to tell other people what to do, then I would want evidence that the visionary's message was good and true. What about these resurrectionexperiences? Physical?Shoghi Effendi said the stories about Christ's resurrection are symbolic; the resurrection was spiritual, not material.Tim Nolan Get your own web address for just $1.99/1st yr. We'll help. Yahoo! Small Business. The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Resurrection of Christ
why don't the resurrection narratives have the disciples going deaf and blind after Jesus died and then receiving sight and hearing? Shouldn't there be some consistency? Also, why aren't there any stories of the disciples being deaf and blind initially? I suggest that these are the verses being referred to. After the crucifixion, Mary Magdalene went to the garden and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus. (John 20:14) She thought Him to be the gardener. That is, she saw Him but did not recognize Him. Then in John 20:16 and 20:18 Mary recognizes her Lord and realizes He is eternal in being. She returns and tells the disciples, and they see Him (John 20:20). Also after the crucifixion, two believers were walking on the road to Emmaus; suddenly Jesus was walking with them, but they did not recognize Him. Then they ate bread and their eyes were opened and they recognized Him: And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them. But their eyes were held that they should not know him And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them. And their eyes were opened, and they knew him... Luke 24:13-31 Also in Luke Chapter 24 verses 39-44, the disciples eat bread with Jesus and believe in Him. Likewise during the days of Joseph there was a famine in the land of Canaan and the brothers of Joseph came to Him for food (Genesis 42:5). And Joseph saw his brethren, and he knew them, but made himself strange unto them, and spake roughly unto them; and he said unto them, 'Whence came ye?' And they said, 'From the land of Canaan to buy food.' And Joseph knew his brethren, but they knew not him. Joseph then gave them bread, and revealed Himself to His brothers, saying There will I nourish thee... And, behold, your eyes see. (Genesis 45:11-12). I have some notes on this at: http://bahai-library.com/?file=poirier_iqan_unsealing_bible that you may find useful. Use them as you wish. Brent The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Resurrection of Christ
This risen Christ issue was very big to him, I suppose in contrast to images of Catholic crucufixes. Dear Karen, That's kind of a one-upsman thing Protestants sometimes use against the Catholics. They claim because they (Protestants) wear empty crucifixes it represents the resurrection as opposed to the Catholic crucifixes which depict Jesus being crucified. But the original reason they didn't put Jesus on the cross is because they objected to the use of figurative icons because they considered then idolatorous. I could not help but think of Mary, who as I recall, was the catalyst to calming the diciples afterward, in that she recognized He indeed lived on in the faith imbued in them. It has always been my thought that the visions of Him were not physical events but spiritual insights. If we are talking about a vision, I'm not sure what physical versus spiritual means. Visions are not physical to begin with. But there is a long tradition both in the gnostic texts and in the orthodox canon of Jesus appearing after the crucifixtion as a being of light. In fact, He apparently was appearing to early Christians so frequently that Luke felt he had to put a lid on it by saying that Jesus ascended after thirty days (and therefore these appearances should stop.) warmest, Susan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Resurrection of Christ
Yes Susan, I am in agreement that visions are not accepted as physical matter. Was it not the misinterpreted seeing of Him that was understood to be a physical body resurrected, rather than the spiritual vision of spiritual matter? warmly, karen --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If we are talking about a vision, I'm not sure what physical versus spiritual means. Visions are not physical to begin with. But there is a long tradition both in the gnostic texts and in the orthodox canon of Jesus appearing after the crucifixtion as a being of light. In fact, He apparently was appearing to early Christians so frequently that Luke felt he had to put a lid on it by saying that Jesus ascended after thirty days (and therefore these appearances should stop.) warmest, Susan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Resurrection of Christ
There's another issue. 'Abdu'l-Baha refers to alleged miracles in the Gospels, saying that receiving sight and hearing referred to a spiritual awakening. If the writers used this to refer to a spiritual awakening as 'Abdu'l-Baha says then why don't the resurrection narratives have the disciples going deaf and blind after Jesus died and then receiving sight and hearing? Shouldn't there be some consistency? Also, why aren't there any stories of the disciples being deaf and blind initially? DavidLooking for love? Check out XtraMSN Personals The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Resurrection of Christ
On 10/11/06, David Friedman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There's another issue. 'Abdu'l-Baha refers to alleged miracles in the Gospels, saying that receiving sight and hearing referred to a spiritual awakening. If the writers used this to refer to a spiritual awakening as 'Abdu'l-Baha says then why don't the resurrection narratives have the disciples going deaf and blind after Jesus died and then receiving sight and hearing? Shouldn't there be some consistency? Also, why aren't there any stories of the disciples being deaf and blind initially? If you count Paul as a disciple the NT describes him being struck blind and then healed although not in the exact way that you describe. In terms of consistency, I don't think metaphors are necessarily about consistency. If it were too consistent it would just be some kind of code, not really a metaphor. The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Resurrection of Christ
Quite right.ScottGilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 10/11/06, David Friedman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: There's another issue. 'Abdu'l-Baha refers to alleged miracles in the Gospels, saying that receiving sight and hearing referred to a spiritual awakening. If the writers used this to refer to a spiritual awakening as 'Abdu'l-Baha says then why don't the resurrection narratives have the disciples going deaf and blind after Jesus died and then receiving sight and hearing? Shouldn't there be some consistency? Also, why aren't there any stories of the disciples being deaf and blind initially?If you count Paul as a disciple the NT describes him being struckblind and then healed although not in the exact way that you describe.In terms of consistency, I don't think metaphors are necessarily aboutconsistency. If it were too consistent it would just be some kind ofcode, not really a metaphor.The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.__You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-stBaha'i Studies is available through the following:Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.eduWeb - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-stNews - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-stPublic - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaistOld Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.netNew Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu As human beings, we are endowed with freedom of choice, and we cannot shuffle off our responsibility upon the shoulders of God or nature. We must shoulder it ourselves. It is our responsibility. Arnold J. Toynbee __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Resurrection of Christ
Metaphor and analogy are great illuminators. They bring understanding in great gulps of light. However, when one examines them too closely, in most cases the bulb burns out.Sorry for the metaphor.Regards, ScottDavid Friedman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There's another issue. 'Abdu'l-Baha refers to alleged miracles in the Gospels, saying that receiving sight and hearing referred to a spiritual awakening. If the writers used this to refer to a spiritual awakening as 'Abdu'l-Baha says then why don't the resurrection narratives have the disciples going deaf and blind after Jesus died and then receiving sight and hearing? Shouldn't there be some consistency? Also, why aren't there any stories of the disciples being deaf and blind initially? DavidLooking for love? Check out XtraMSN Personals The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu As human beings, we are endowed with freedom of choice, and we cannot shuffle off our responsibility upon the shoulders of God or nature. We must shoulder it ourselves. It is our responsibility. Arnold J. Toynbee __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Resurrection of Christ
Dear David, Although Abdu'l-Baha does not say so explicitly, my reading of the early Christian sources, combined with Abdu'l-Baha's interpretation lead me to think that there were 'ressurrection' appearances of Jesus after the crucifixtion. They just weren't physical. warmest, Susan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Resurrection of Christ
Dear Susan and David, I recently was presented with this topic while on a boyscout campout a fellow parent inquired what church I went to. His interest in the Bahai Faith soon waned when it became clear that I was not interested in leaving my church to join his where we worship a risen Christ. I live in a small town with a church on every corner and I expressed not only our belief in the unity of religions but stated that our Writings state its purpose is to bring together, and that if it did not serve that purpose it was better to be without it. I expressed my bewilderment at so many churches all claiming to be Christian. This risen Christ issue was very big to him, I suppose in contrast to images of Catholic crucufixes. I could not help but think of Mary, who as I recall, was the catalyst to calming the diciples afterward, in that she recognized He indeed lived on in the faith imbued in them. It has always been my thought that the visions of Him were not physical events but spiritual insights. I shared with this parent that miracles in themselves were not proof of divinity, which he readily agreed to. The real proof of the Reality of Christ was that his followers were able to receive his message of love one another. As one who has had the born again experience and grew from there to recognize the Faith, I was able to be compassionate to his myopic view and yet firm and unwavering in a real sense that I was not offending the Holy Spirit as it manifested, but rather honoring that Spirit in the recognition of Baha'u'llah. Our Writings, as I remember/comprehend, say that to distinguish one above another is error. No one has the corner on the God market. The beauty of this conversation, which I never would have initiated on my own, was that a fellow boyscout asked me about the main beliefs of the Baha'i Faith...which I led into with the personal responsiblity to investigate the truth. warmly, karen --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear David, Although Abdu'l-Baha does not say so explicitly, my reading of the early Christian sources, combined with Abdu'l-Baha's interpretation lead me to think that there were 'ressurrection' appearances of Jesus after the crucifixtion. They just weren't physical. warmest, Susan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Resurrection of Christ
One issue of major importance for Baha'is with relation to Christians is the resurrection of Jesus. The resurrection is connected to the ascension and return of Christ. If there was a bodily resurrection then there was a bodily ascension and the return of Christ would be the very same person returning. One thing I don't know how to explain well is 'Abdu'l-Baha's explanation. The explanation He gives certainly doesn't appear to agree with the resurrection narratives. 'Abdu'l-Baha says that the resurrection was the disciples regaining their faith. However, the narratives have the regaining of faith something that happens AFTER the resurrection. Furthermore, they have Jesus as helping them get their faith back, whereas 'Abdu'l-Baha says they got it back by themselves. When 'Abdu'l-Baha gives biblical proof it is not from the narratives. Hence I don't see how to prove that the resurrection had anything to do with the disciples. Any thoughts? Regards,DavidRead the latest Hollywood gossip at XtraMSN Entertainment The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Resurrection of Christ
Well, Abdu'l Baha says there was no physical resurrection. In my mind the Apostles of Christ may well have seen Christ amongst them as a spiritual form beyond their comprehension.What ever else happened during that time, and however the Spirit of Christ amongst them is represented, the REAL resurrection was the resurrection of the Cause of God amongst the followers of Christ. Without that specific event, Jesus would have had no more impact on civilization than Mani had.Regards, ScottDavid Friedman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: One issue of major importance for Baha'is with relation to Christians is the resurrection of Jesus. The resurrection is connected to the ascension and return of Christ. If there was a bodily resurrection then there was a bodily ascension and the return of Christ would be the very same person returning. One thing I don't know how to explain well is 'Abdu'l-Baha's explanation. The explanation He gives certainly doesn't appear to agree with the resurrection narratives. 'Abdu'l-Baha says that the resurrection was the disciples regaining their faith. However, the narratives have the regaining of faith something that happens AFTER the resurrection. Furthermore, they have Jesus as helping them get their faith back, whereas 'Abdu'l-Baha says they got it back by themselves. When 'Abdu'l-Baha gives biblical proof it is not from the narratives. Hence I don't see how to prove that the resurrection had anything to do with the disciples. Any thoughts?Regards,DavidRead the latest Hollywood gossip at XtraMSN Entertainment The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu As human beings, we are endowed with freedom of choice, and we cannot shuffle off our responsibility upon the shoulders of God or nature. We must shoulder it ourselves. It is our responsibility. Arnold J. Toynbee __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Resurrection of Christ
1. Abdu'l-Baha refers, as well, to Mary Magdelena as the reason for the return of the faith of the disciples. "O maid-servant of God! Verily, Mary, the Magdalene, was a villager, but she kept firm in the Cause of Christ and confirmed the apostles at the time she declared to them (thus): "Verily, Christ is alive and eternal and death did not overtake Him; and verily, the foundation of His religion is not shaken by His crucifixion at the hand of the oppressors!" By this her face is eternally shining from the horizon of guidance." (Abdu'l-Baha, Tablets of Abdu'l-Baha v2, p. 268) 2. Perhaps if one were to approach the issue of "resurrection of the body" from the perspective of these verses; the task might not be so difficult. It would seem that the Christian will the need to face the fact that as "eating" cannot be taken literally' then the use of the word "bread" cannot be so taken. He might then be willing to conclude that bodily ascension is probably not what is meant by the word "ascended". :6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. 6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. 6:58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever. (King James Bible, John) Richard. - Original Message - From: David Friedman To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 1:25 AM Subject: Resurrection of Christ One issue of major importance for Baha'is with relation to Christians is the resurrection of Jesus. The resurrection is connected to the ascension and return of Christ. If there was a bodily resurrection then there was a bodily ascension and the return of Christ would be the very same person returning. One thing I don't know how to explain well is 'Abdu'l-Baha's explanation. The explanation He gives certainly doesn't appear to agree with the resurrection narratives. 'Abdu'l-Baha says that the resurrection was the disciples regaining their faith. However, the narratives have the regaining of faith something that happens AFTER the resurrection. Furthermore, they have Jesus as helping them get their faith back, whereas 'Abdu'l-Baha says they got it back by themselves. When 'Abdu'l-Baha gives biblical proof it is not from the narratives. Hence I don't see how to prove that the resurrection had anything to do with the disciples. Any thoughts? Regards,David Read the latest Hollywood gossip at XtraMSN Entertainment The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu