re: Science and the Future of Religion
Brent, Thanks for your kind comments (and for listening to me so thoughtfully). I am meditating upon your thoughts as I work this week. Hopefully I will digest my frustrations and get over them. ;-))) __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Science and the Future of Religion
Susan, what a beautiful concept you describe below. Your "pre-modern" mind was always more open to miracles than mine, would that mine were more like yours! Susan wrote: >>I mentioned the Asharites who shared this perception. They saw existence as made up of atoms, but these atoms were not particles as we currently see them. They were more like mathematical points on a line, the will of God being the only thing that gave them any continuity whatsoever such that if God's active involvement in the universe were to cease for a moment all existence would cease to be. << __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Science and the Future of Religion
Khazeh wrote: >>My dear Brother Brent, May I openly thank you for your postings >> You know, one of the things that happened in Baha'i history is that the Baha'is in Ishqabad, who had been attacked by Muslim mobs, spoke up at the trials of the Muslims and requested the court to reduce their punishment. Baha'u'llah praised this in His Writings. And I just want to say that in this modern age, when a doctor speaks so nicely towards a lawyer, well, this is the promised day when the lion and the lamb share the same pasture, and we know the day is near when we'll all be holding hands and singing together "It's a small world, after all!" A very lovely posting, thank you dear Khazeh. Brent __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Science and the Future of Religion
My dear Brother Brent, May I openly thank you for your postings and correlations from which one learns so much There is a conversation going on between you and Ron and I have no intention of coming in for the sake of coming in. But I noticed on quick reading that you mentioned as an example of hyperbole *** and there are many instances in the Baha'i Writings of HYPERBOLE. An example that comes to mind from the Iqan, page 223: "Among them was Mulla Husayn, who became the recipient of the effulgent glory of the Sun of divine Revelation. But for him, God would not have been established upon the seat of His mercy, nor ascended the throne of eternal glory."*** I shall, with your permission and Baha'u'llah's assistance say a word about this at the end of your letter [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brent Poirier Sent: 13 December 2004 02:38 >>These are emergent phenomena of a whole other level. So we have no language in which to express our spirituality, other than metaphor, symbols, myth and hyperbole.>> The Master has said something very similar in SAQ; and there are many instances in the Baha'i Writings of hyperbole. An example that comes to mind from the Iqan, page 223: "Among them was Mulla Husayn, who became the recipient of the effulgent glory of the Sun of divine Revelation. But for him, God would not have been established upon the seat of His mercy, nor ascended the throne of eternal glory." "As Baha'u'llah says we should take the outward significance and superimpose upon it the inner. Either without the other is wrong and defective." (From a letter on behalf of Shoghi Effendi dated 16 February 1932; Compilation on Deepening; The Compilation of Compilations vol. I, p. 215) ... Ron, I don't see how these are inconsistent. We know that the Writings say in a hundred places that the inner core of the religions is the same. The Guardian's secretary also wrote on his behalf: "There are two main principles which the Guardian wishes the friends to always bear in mind and to conscientiously and faithfully follow. First is the principle of unqualified and wholehearted loyalty to the revealed Word. The believers should be careful not to deviate, even a hair-breadth, from the Teachings. Their supreme considerations should be to safeguard the purity of the principles, tenets and laws of the Faith. It is only by this means that they can hope to maintain the organic unity of the Cause. There can and should be not liberal or conservatives, no moderates or extremes in the Cause. For they are all subject to the one and the same law which is the Law of God. This law transcends all differences, all personal or local tendencies, moods and aspirations." (Lights of Guidance, p. 79) ... Very eloquent, thank you. Brent and there are many instances in the Baha'i Writings of HYPERBOLE. An example that comes to mind from the Iqan, page 223: "Among them was Mulla Husayn, who became the recipient of the effulgent glory of the Sun of divine Revelation. But for him, God would not have been established upon the seat of His mercy, nor ascended the throne of eternal glory." While I agree with you dear Brent that hyperboles do occur the above instance is more than a hyperbole. It is a somewhat different from hyperbole. For God [the Manifestation of God] to reveal HimSelf the symbolism is used that He [God] seats HimSelf upon the Throne ['arsh]. Thus in the Qur'anic Dispensation when the Imam 'Ali first recognized the Beauty and Truth of Muhammad's Mission the Holy Qur'an says. God the Merciful established HimSelf on the Throne Alrrahmanu AAala alAAarshi istawa *** 020.004 YUSUFALI: A revelation from Him Who created the earth and the heavens on high. PICKTHAL: A revelation from Him Who created the earth and the high heavens, 020.005 YUSUFALI: The Most Gracious is firmly established on the throne (of authority). PICKTHAL: The Beneficent One, Who is established on the Throne. So when Mulla H.usayn was the first to accept the effulgence of the Rays of Revelation for this cosmically significant moment in human redemption the Divine Author says But for him [Mulla H.usayn], God would not have been established upon the seat of His mercy, nor ascended the throne of eternal glory. (Baha'u'llah: The Kitab-i-Iqan, Page: 223)*** Thus the exalted Bab reveals also in the Bayan **Shajareh ye H.aqeeqat dar har h.aal naaz.er ast be khalq e khod.** The Tree of Truth is at all times casting His glances towards His Creation. **Har waqt keh bebeenad este'dAd e z.uhuur raa dar marAyAye af'idah ye musabbiheen meeshenAsAnad Khod raa...** 10th bab of the 7th Unity Whenever He sees the capacity for His Revelation in the mirrors of the hearts and souls of His praisers He does then cause Himself to be recognized... Please forgive me dear Brent I feel so inadequate but I thought you might enjoy the Iqan as an example of "hyperbole" in a different etymological sense :) Humbly respectfully faithfully khazeh
RE: Science and the Future of Religion
"Applying the principle of Occam's razor, I like to use the simplest explanation possible. If a natural explanation for something exists, that is preferable to a more unlikely explanation that involves a breaking of natural laws." Dear Ron, It is interesting that you say this, because while I would agree that the modern scientific method can probably be traced back to William of Occham, as a nominalist, I'm not sure he believed in natural law as something immutable. Like the Asharites in Islamic theology, William of Occham believed that the "laws" we observed in nature were nothing more than expressions of God's customary ways of doing things, customs He could chose suspend when He wished to. As far as William of Occham was concerned, the Virgin Birth and the Incarnation itself were instances of this. I mentioned the Asharites who shared this perception. They saw existence as made up of atoms, but these atoms were not particles as we currently see them. They were more like mathematical points on a line, the will of God being the only thing that gave them any continuity whatsoever such that if God's active involvement in the universe were to cease for a moment all existence would cease to be. Now, I'm a strong believer in modern science, but I share this Asharite vision of the universe as well. I remember years ago I was taking a course from Dr. Heiko Oberman on St. Augustine's City of God. We got to the eleventh book, I think, where Augustine was offering the miracles associated with saint shrines as evidence of the validity of Christianity. Part of me recognized this as a pattern in the spread of Islam through Sufi saint shrines but another part of me was frustrated with this whole line of argument. I finally blurted out, "You can't prove anything by miracles, they happen all the time!" The other graduate students just stared at me. Dr. Oberman looked surprised for a moment too, and then smiled and said, "Suzy, you are so unmodern. And I say that with admiration." I just learned recently that Dr. Oberman passed away awhile back. He truly was a murshid-i kamil. Well, almost kamil. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
re: Science and the Future of Religion
>>I do not believe in what I call "physical miracles"; that is, violations of the scientific laws of the universe (such as gravity). That does not make spirituality and religion any less wonderful. Far from it.>> This reminds me of poets who also know the scientific basis of beautiful natural phenomena. Knowing how the beauty comes about, doesn't remove any of the awe at the beauty. >>So we can see the hand of God move within human society, but He moves through >>humans and within natural law.>> Hand of the Cause Faizi said this is one of the true mysteries of life (and a mystery is something that is not only not understandable today; it is something that will never be understood) anyway, he said that one of the true mysteries in life is that we don't know how much of what we do is our own doing, and how much is God's will. God works through all of us every day, in ways we never realize. Also, God works in mysterious ways, beneath the surface, that we gradually realize. >>These are emergent phenomena of a whole other level. So we have no language >>in which to express our spirituality, other than metaphor, symbols, myth and >>hyperbole.>> The Master has said something very similar in SAQ; and there are many instances in the Baha'i Writings of hyperbole. An example that comes to mind from the Iqan, page 223: "Among them was Mulla Husayn, who became the recipient of the effulgent glory of the Sun of divine Revelation. But for him, God would not have been established upon the seat of His mercy, nor ascended the throne of eternal glory." >>If we take too literal an understanding of the metaphors and symbols used by >>Baha'u'llah and our other Central Figures, we lose the potency of its >>intended role of uniting the world and harmonizing science and religion.>> This reminds me of an important principle Baha'u'llah gave us, to help to understand His Writings as He intended them: "As Bahá'u'lláh says we should take the outward significance and superimpose upon it the inner. Either without the other is wrong and defective." (From a letter on behalf of Shoghi Effendi dated 16 February 1932; Compilation on Deepening; The Compilation of Compilations vol. I, p. 215) >>I believe that we are doing ourselves a dis-service by emphasizing Entry by >>Troops, prophecy, and doctrinal uniformity. I believe we should be >>emphasizing the radical uniformity of the inner core of the world's spiritual >>traditions ... >>> Ron, I don't see how these are inconsistent. We know that the Writings say in a hundred places that the inner core of the religions is the same. The Guardian's secretary also wrote on his behalf: "There are two main principles which the Guardian wishes the friends to always bear in mind and to conscientiously and faithfully follow. First is the principle of unqualified and wholehearted loyalty to the revealed Word. The believers should be careful not to deviate, even a hair-breadth, from the Teachings. Their supreme considerations should be to safeguard the purity of the principles, tenets and laws of the Faith. It is only by this means that they can hope to maintain the organic unity of the Cause. There can and should be not liberal or conservatives, no moderates or extremes in the Cause. For they are all subject to the one and the same law which is the Law of God. This law transcends all differences, all personal or local tendencies, moods and aspirations." (Lights of Guidance, p. 79) >>> ... the newfound capability of experiencing true spirituality without >>> abandoning or short-circuiting science, reason and logic; and the >>> possibility of using our powerful science and technology to build a new civilization that cherishes and encourages spirituality without superstition.>> Very eloquent, thank you. Brent __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Science and the Future of Religion
Applying the principle of Occam's razor, I like to use the simplest explanation possible. If a natural explanation for something exists, that is preferable to a more unlikely explanation that involves a breaking of natural laws. I think all of religion can be explained without the breaking of natural laws. This doesn't make it any less wonderful. It's sort of like this. Life is an emergent phenomenon. Consciousness is a higher level emergent phenomenon. At a higher level still, spirituality is an emergent phenomenon. The fact is, you can explain life and consciousness using the laws of science. You can do the same with spirituality and religion. So, I do not believe in what I call "physical miracles"; that is, violations of the scientific laws of the universe (such as gravity). That does not make spirituality and religion any less wonderful. Far from it. Just as life and consciousness are wonderful, even after we learn how they operate scientifically, we see them as emergent phenomena with significances and meaning beyond their mechanistic roots. While we may understand their mechanisms, we are in awe of their emergent actuality. So we can see the hand of God move within human society, but He moves through humans and within natural law. Our language is the result and expression of our consciousness, but there is no corresponding language yet for spirituality and religion. These are emergent phenomena of a whole other level. So we have no language in which to express our spirituality, other than metaphor, symbols, myth and hyperbole. Humanity has evolved with a sense of spirituality, and it needs to be expressed in a social and cultural form, an external religion. The existing, older religions, while certainly containing the inner spiritual core so necessary to mankind, carry too much historical baggage now of warfare and bloodshed, intolerance and backwardness. Baha'u'llah founded the Baha'i Faith as a renewed expression of that same eternal inner spiritual religion contained in the previous dispensations, but with the intent also that it be in harmony with science, reason and logic. He intended for the Baha'i Faith to unify the world. If we take too literal an understanding of the metaphors and symbols used by Baha'u'llah and our other Central Figures, we lose the potency of its intended role of uniting the world and harmonizing science and religion. Is it possible that this is one of the reasons why the Baha'i Faith today is so small in numbers and has stopped growing? Almost 200 years after the birth of Baha'u'llah, the Baha'i Faith is professed by less than .1% of the world's population, less than .01% of the USA population, and about .001% of the European population. In the USA, the number of new declarents is declining every year and is less than the actuarial replacement rate; in plain words, the number of Baha'is in the USA is declining at an increasingly rapid rate. Both the Christian and Islamic Faiths grew much faster in their early years, proportionally speaking. By the year 64 AD, Christianity was widely enough known to be blamed by Nero for the burning of Rome. By 300 AD, between 5% and 10% of the population of the Roman Empire were Christians. By 350 AD, the Roman Empire was Christian. In our own age, the Mormon church, founded at the same time as the Baha'i Faith, is larger in numbers and is still growing. The early Christian Church had a radical message of love and universal human dignity. The Islamic Faith had an equally compelling message of monotheism and social equity. I believe the Baha'i Faith can have an equally compelling message (for our day and age) of Unity; unity of religions and unity of mental world views, healing the rift between science and religion. In short, I believe that we are still failing to see the true scope of the revolutionary change that is necessary. I believe that we are doing ourselves a dis-service by emphasizing Entry by Troops, prophecy, and doctrinal uniformity. I believe we should be emphasizing the radical uniformity of the inner core of the world's spiritual traditions; the Baha'i Faith's capability to encompass all of that within a legitimate and authoritative historical tradition, without sacrificing anything core to the world's religions; the newfound capability of experiencing true spirituality without abandoning or short-circuiting science, reason and logic; and the possibility of using our powerful science and technology to build a new civilization that cherishes and encourages spirituality without superstition. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://lis
