re: UHJ membership and women
I want to put my posts in this thread in perspective. I'm not convinced it's right to permanently exclude women from the Universal House of Justice. I'm not convinced that it's wrong. I'm not worried about it. In my view, the equality of women and men that we need to promote is not whatever anyone means by equality. It's whatever Baha'u'llah prescribed, that Abdu'l-Baha calls equality. It's an open question for me whether that means including women on the Universal House of Justice or not. As mentioned earlier, the law regarding the membership of the Universal House of Justice is embedded in the Text and has been merely restated by the divinely appointed interpreters. It is therefore neither amenable to change nor subject to speculation about some possible future condition. (The Universal House of Justice, 1988 May 31, Women and UHJ Membership) It is natural that the friends would discuss such matters among themselves, as you and your correspondent have been doing on your Internet discussion group; how otherwise are they to deepen their understanding of the Teachings? But they should recognize that the resolution of differences of opinion on such fundamental questions is not to be found by continued discussion, but in referring to the Universal House of Justice itself, as you have done. Prolonged, unresolved, public discussion of these fundamental questions can do nothing but breed confusion and dissension. (The Universal House of Justice, 1992 Dec 10, Issues Related to Study Compilation) Similarly, for believers to be drawn into discussion of subjects which the Writings themselves tell us will find clarification only through the passing of time, such as the wisdom of Bah'lls limiting membership of the Universal House of Justice to men, the full implication of the Will and Testament, and the process by which the Bah Commonwealth will emerge, would tend to divert attention from real and pressing issues. Such speculation may, indeed, be the real reason why such subjects are often so ardently pursued by opponents of the Cause. (The Universal House of Justice, 1999 Nov 22, Attacks on the Faith in Internet Discussions, p. 2) I do not normally spend my time in Internet discussions, discussing the inclusion of women on the Universal House of Justice. From time to time I discuss my idea that there are no limits to the kinds of ideas we can promote, and when I do, I use the inclusion of women as an example, precisely because there are people who insist, that the Universal House of Justice has tried to repress and censor discussion of that topic among Baha'is. Some time ago, for a while, as part of my work with marginalized people, I spent some time exploring safe and healthy ways for a person who thinks its wrong to exclude women, to try to get the policy changed. That was when I wrote the essay that I posted in this thread, arguing that we are making public statements and promises contrary to what we are practicing. I am curious about what responses their might be to the issues I've raised, and to some issues others have raised, that I have not seen addressed by the Universal House of Justice. That's why I would like to see Susan B address those issues. Jim __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: UHJ membership and women
It is natural that the friends would discuss such matters among themselves, as you and your correspondent have been doing on your Internet discussion group; how otherwise are they to deepen their understanding of the Teachings? But they should recognize that the resolution of differences of opinion on such fundamental questions is not to be found by continued discussion, but in referring to the Universal House of Justice itself, as you have done. Prolonged, unresolved, public discussion of these fundamental questions can do nothing but breed confusion and dissension. (The Universal House of Justice, 1992 Dec 10, Issues Related to Study Compilation) Dear Jim, A minor point, but the above letter is dated 3 June 1997, not Dec. 10, 1992 (that's the date of the first letter in the compilation.) The letter is addressed to Dr. Iskandar Hai who is on this list and it grew out of an argument between he and myself. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: UHJ membership and women
A minor point, but the above letter is dated 3 June 1997, not Dec. 10, 1992. Thanks, Susan. I need to remember to verify all of my references. Jim __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: UHJ membership and women
Yes. Dear Jim, If you don't give a bit of the message you are responding to, no one can tell what you are saying yes to. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: UHJ membership and women
Jim, Allah'u'Abha. Yes, should I be able to address this issue in the form of an essay later this summer, God willing, I would indeed respond to the stated and published concerns. For now, I have a book monograph that needs to be finished and at the publisher in June, and a number of other large projects that need to be completed before I can turn to new projects. I also want to thank those who have emailed me individually regarding my post. Yes, this is an important issue that we will all come to understand over time. My regards to all, Susan Dr. Susan Berry Brill de Ramirez, Professor of English Bradley University, Peoria, IL 61625 U.S.A. [EMAIL PROTECTED]; (309) 677-3888; fax (309) 677-2330 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jim Habegger Sent: Friday, May 27, 2005 5:48 AM To: Baha'i Studies Subject: re: UHJ membership and women Susan B, if you write your essay, I hope you will address the issues in my long post above. Also, I hope you will address *all* the issues in the articles Women's Service on the Universal House of Justice and The Service of Women on the Institutions of the Baha'i Faith __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: UHJ membership and women
Dear Jim, you wrote: Our only explanation for excluding women from our supreme council, is the view of our supreme council, that God told us to make an exception for our supreme council. Adding insult to injury, we call that exception negligeable. The meagre understanding I have of the Faith would require me, if your reasoning were my reasoning, to consider the verse quoted by a scholarly poster: Weigh not the Book of God with such standards and sciences as are current amongst you, for the Book itself is the unerring balance established amongst men (Baha'u'llah, _Gleanings_, 198). Secondly, I would look to the origins of the requirement that the Universal House of Justice me made up of men only. It appears to have its origin with Baha'u'llah This passage, now written by the Pen of Glory, is accounted as part of the Most Holy Book: The men of God's House of Justice have been charged with the affairs of the people. They, in truth, are the Trustees of God among His servants and the daysprings of authority in His countries. (Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 91) It is then interpreted by Abd'l-Baha, In the law of God, men and women are equal in all rights save in the Universal House of Justice; for the Chairman and the members of the House of Justice are men according to the Text of the Book. Aside from this, in all the rest of the Associations, like the Convention for the building of the Mashrek-el-Azkar, the Assembly of Teaching, the Spiritual Assembly, Philanthropic Associations Scientific Association, men and women are co-partners in all the rights. Upon thee be Baha-el-ABHA! (signed) Abdul Baha Abbas Translated by: Dr. Ameen U. Fareed Haifa, Syria, July 29, 1909. (Abdu'l-Baha, Women on the House of Justice) And then it is confirmed by Shoghi Effendi As regards your question concerning the membership of the Universal House of Justice, there is a Tablet from 'Abdu'l-Bah in which He definitely states that the membership of the Universal House is confined to men and that the wisdom of it will be fully revealed in the future. In the local, as well as the National Houses of Justice, however, women have the full right of membership. It is therefore, only to the International House that they cannot be elected. The Bah's should accept this statement of the Master in a spirit of deep faith, confident that there is a divine guidance and wisdom behind it, which will be gradually unfolded to the eyes of the world. Regarding your question, the Master said the wisdom of having no women on the International House of Justice, would become manifest in the future. We have no other indication than this. At present there are women on the International Council, and this will continue as long as it exists, but when the International House of Justice is elected, there will only be men on it, as this is the law of the Aqdas. (Shoghi Effendi, Directives from the Guardian, p. 79) And, as the matter is In the law of God, men and women are equal in all rights save in the Universal House of Justice; for the Chairman and the members of the House of Justice are men according to the Text of the Book the the following quotation would apply, I would think, What has not been formulated in the Aqdas, in addition to matters of detail and of secondary importance arising out of the application of the laws already formulated by Bah'u'llh, will have to be enacted by the Universal House of Justice. This body can supplement but never invalidate or modify in the least degree what has already been formulated by Bah'u'llh. Nor has the Guardian any right whatsoever to lessen the binding effect much less to abrogate the provisions of so fundamental and sacred a Book... (Shoghi Effendi, Directives from the Guardian, p. 4) May God grant you all the good of this world and of the next. Richard. . __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: UHJ membership and women
Thank you, Richard. Jim __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: UHJ membership and women
Susan B said: For now, I have a book monograph that needs to be finished and at the publisher in June, and a number of other large projects that need to be completed before I can turn to new projects. Take your time. I'm in no hurry. Like I said, it's not a burning issue for me. Jim __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: UHJ membership and women
Susan M, yes I'm aware of the circumstances behind the House's letter to the NSA of New Zealand. Jim __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: UHJ membership and women
Susan M, yes I'm aware of the circumstances behind the House's letter to the NSA of New Zealand. Dear Jim, Then you know they objected to the presentation of the Service of Women paper at the New Zealand ABS and prohibited it's publication? warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: UHJ membership and women
Then you know they objected to the presentation of the Service of Women paper at the New Zealand ABS and prohibited it's publication? I'm aware that you think so. I haven't seen anything in any message from any Baha'i institution, that says so. Here is how the letter to the NZ LSA begins: We have been informed of a paper, presented at a recent New Zealand Bah Studies conference, which raises the possibility that the ineligibility of women for membership on the Universal House of Justice may be a temporary provision subject to change through a process of progressive unfoldment of the divine purpose. We present the following points as a means of increasing the friends' understanding of this established provision of the Order of Bah'llthat membership of the Universal House of Justice is confined to men. Is that what you mean by saying that they objected to the presentation of the letter? I've seen you and some other people circulating a rumor that they prohibited the publication and distribution of the letter. I see no reason to believe it. Have you ever written to the House to ask about it? You asked me about this, in response to this, from one of my posts: In case there was any misunderstanding, I used the topic of women on the Universal House of Justice, as an example in my discussion of limits to promoting ideas, because I thought it would be a good example of a topic that some people might think the House of Justice has tried to repress Are you pointing to that letter, and that rumor, as reasons for thinking that the House has tried to repress the topic of women on the Universal House of Justice? Jim __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: UHJ membership and women
Then you know they objected to the presentation of the Service of Women paper at the New Zealand ABS and prohibited it's publication? I'm aware that you think so. I haven't seen anything in any message from any Baha'i institution, that says so. Dear Jim, That is the story I got both from the authors of that article and the person who presented it (who by the way is now an ABM for Protection.) But if you doubt this you might ask the House. Here is how the letter to the NZ LSA begins: We have been informed of a paper, presented at a recent New Zealand Bah' Studies conference, which raises the possibility that the ineligibility of women for membership on the Universal House of Justice may be a temporary provision subject to change through a process of progressive unfoldment of the divine purpose. We present the following points as a means of increasing the friends' understanding of this established provision of the Order of Bah'u'llh that membership of the Universal House of Justice is confined to men. Is that what you mean by saying that they objected to the presentation of the letter? I mean things like the fact that the Executive Committee was replaced because of it and they sent out a Hand of the Cause to deal with the situation. And Tony Lee received a letter telling him not to distribute that article any further. I've seen you and some other people circulating a rumor that they prohibited the publication and distribution of the letter. I see no reason to believe it. Do you think I'm lying to you? Have you ever written to the House to ask about it? No reason. If the Counsellors, the ABMs, those serving on the Executive Committee of the ABS and Tony Lee are all telling me the same, chances are it's true. You asked me about this, in response to this, from one of my posts: Are you pointing to that letter, and that rumor, as reasons for thinking that the House has tried to repress the topic of women on the Universal House of Justice? I don't consider it a rumor. It's a historical fact for which I have several eye-witnesses. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: UHJ membership and women
Susan, I'll rephrase my question. Are you pointing to that letter, and your conviction that the Universal House of Justice prohibited the publication and distribution of that paper, as reasons for thinking that the House has tried to repress the topic of women on the Universal House of Justice? Jim __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: UHJ membership and women
Susan, are you saying that the Universal House of Justice made a formal decision, in accordance with its constitution, to prohibit the publication of that paper? If so, is there some way for me to verify that? If you say to write and ask, I will. Jim __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: UHJ membership and women
Susan, are you saying that the Universal House of Justice made a formal decision, in accordance with its constitution, to prohibit the publication of that paper? If so, is there some way for me to verify that? If you say to write and ask, I will. Dear Jim, I would suggest you ask either Tony Lee or the US NSA about this. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: UHJ membership and women
Are you pointing to that letter, and your conviction that the Universal House of Justice prohibited the publication and distribution of that paper, as reasons for thinking that the House has tried to repress the topic of women on the Universal House of Justice? Not, the topic Jim. But they have made it more than clear that the matter is not up for debate. I think the only way it could be reopened would be if someone were to make some new discoveries in this area. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: UHJ membership and women
Susan, I'm wondering if I should include this in my list of writings that might limit what kinds of ideas we can promote. What do you think? According to Susan Maneck, the Counsellors, the ABMs, those serving on the Executive Committee of the ABS and Tony Lee said that the Universal House of Justice objected to the presentation of the paper The Service of Women on the Institutions of the Baha'i Faith at a Baha'i Studies conference, and prohibited its publication. (Source: Susan Maneck) Jim __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: UHJ membership and women
Susan, I'm wondering if I should include this in my list of writings that might limit what kinds of ideas we can promote. List of writings? What is that supposed to mean? __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: UHJ membership and women
Indeed Jim, you are quite welcome. Richard. - Original Message - From: Jim Habegger [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Sent: Friday, May 27, 2005 3:46 PM Subject: Re: UHJ membership and women Thank you, Richard. Jim __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
UHJ membership and women
Dear friends, Allah'u'Abha! I have been following the discussions regarding the membership of our supreme body, the Universal House of Justice. I remember these sorts of concerns that were raised over a decade ago on the old Talisman listserve. As a Baha'i who is also a woman and a feminist (and who is the daughter and granddaughter of women who fought for women's rights in the United States--my beloved grandmother as a suffragette and my dear mother who always had us observe the birthdays of important American women like Juliette Lowe and Eleanor Roosevelt), I would like to offer a few thoughts about this issue regarding the gendered make-up of the Universal House of Justice. 1) First, I want to thank Jim and others who have contributed to this thread, for otherwise I would not have known that this is still a concern among a number of Baha'is. For many years, I have considered addressing this issue in the form of a publishable essay. Perhaps this is the time to do so. 2) Second, as a woman who understands the struggles of women intimately, familially, culturally, and historically, these debates about the House of Justice weigh heavily upon my heart. I wonder, how is it that we Baha'is cannot differentiate between sexism, misogyny, and female oppression, on the one hand, and a legitimate and wise distinction that is gendered but not sexist, on the other? Are we evaluating Baha'i structures and ways in light of the secular values of the day? Does not Bah'u'llah advise us, Weigh not the Book of God with such standards and sciences as are current amongst you, for the Book itself is the unerring balance established amongst men (Baha'u'llah, _Gleanings_, 198). 3) Throughout time, there have been diversely gendered roles and relations that have varied from people to people, culture to culture, and time to time. In most cultures, women have been severely devalued and marginalized, but this has not been the case in all cultures. In those cultures where women have been valued (generally in agrarian-based and geographically rooted cultures) and where gender relations have been based on equitable principles, such equality in no wise has signified sameness. Even where women and men have lived in balance, there have still been certain divisions of roles and labor based on gender. Here difference has not meant a hierarchized inequality. When the friends criticize the fact that our beloved Universal House of Justice is made up solely of men, are they not familiar with how certain cultures have recognized the differences between men and women in ways that are neither prejudicial nor unjust? 4) Yes, in the metaphor of the bird, right wings and left wings need to be perfectly balanced for a perfectly true flight, but we must never forget that right wings and left wings are not identical. They are very similar with very similar functions, but they have functions that differ and in some respects are mirror images of each other. 5) It is important that we clearly see the difference between appearances and actualities. Wittgenstein wrote that a boundary line may be drawn and appear to be exclusionary for one perspective. He then explains that if the rules of the game are, in fact, different, that line may have a very different meaning that is, in no wise, exclusionary. . . . but this requires efforts on our parts to come to new ways of understanding. 6) I really feel that to understand the gendered make-up of the Universal House of Justice, it is necessary to study those past cultures that have manifested gender equality to see what such balance has looked like in the past. Perhaps this is an area where I can be of assistance. I'll see if I can craft such an essay by the end of the summer. 7) Finally, as a feminist, I do want to note that I find it a bit annoying to have Baha'i men riding in on their chargers like white knights to save the weak and feeble damsel in distress on this issue. As a rule, I have found more men to have difficulties with this issue than women. Most women are pretty secure in the very high stations that are given to us and our respective responsibilities in the world as the first educators of the children, as primarily responsible for the moral training of the children, as the first line of defense for the health of our families, as responsible in having our own careers and being knowledgeable in our local community, schools, state, national, and international affairs, and being those who log innumerable hours in Baha'i community life and other forms of social service in our communities. Maybe the men, instead of talking about so many issues, could spend more of their time helping us out with the children, the schools, the home, etc., etc. And anyone who would devalue women's responsibilities in the education of children (and how THAT affects EVERYTHING ELSE in the world--scientific discoveries, crime rates,
Re: UHJ membership and women
Would someone please give the original subject name of the thread referred to below? 1) First, I want to thank Jim and others who have contributed to this thread -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 266.11.17 - Release Date: 5/25/05 __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: UHJ membership and women
Limits on promoting ideas http://list.jccc.net:8080/read/messages?id=119783 __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
re: UHJ membership and women
Dear Susan B., I'm glad to know that you found encouragement in my posts. Thank you for telling me. In case there was any misunderstanding, I used the topic of women on the Universal House of Justice, as an example in my discussion of limits to promoting ideas, because I thought it would be a good example of a topic that some people might think the House of Justice has tried to repress, not because I think it's a burning issue for anyone. I have no reason to think it's a burning issue for anyone, except as part of some defamation campaigns against the House of Justice. It certainly is not a burning issue for me. If you write an article, maybe you can help me reconcile some public statements and promises, from Baha'i institutions and agencies, with our exclusion of women from the House of Justice. Here is my reasoning: According to statements from Baha'i Institutions and agencies: 1. Equality of women and men, includes equality of rights. The realities of things have been revealed in this radiant century, and that which is true must come to the surface. Among these realities is the principle of the equality of man and woman -- equal rights and prerogatives in all things appertaining to humanity. (Compilations, The Compilation of Compilations vol II, p. 399) He made woman respected by commanding that all women be educated, that there be no difference in the education of the two sexes and that man and woman share the same rights. (Compilations, The Compilation of Compilations vol II, p. 365) 2. Membership on a spiritual assembly (house of justice) is part of the equality of rights. Exclusion of women from a house of justice is an obstacle to the enjoyment of complete equality of rights. Full rights have been accorded to Bah women residing in the cradle of the Faith, to participate in the membership of both national and local Bah Spiritual Assemblies, removing thereby the last remaining obstacle to the enjoyment of complete equality of rights in the conduct of the administrative affairs of the Persian Bah Community. (Compilations, The Compilation of Compilations vol II, p. 402) Regarding the position of the Bah women in India and Burma, and their future collaboration with the men in the administrative work of the Cause, I feel that the time is now ripe that those women who have already conformed to the prevailing custom in India and Burma by discarding the veil should not only be given the right to vote for the election of their local and national representatives, but should themselves be eligible to the membership of all Bah Assemblies throughout India and Burma, be they local or national. (Compilations, The Compilation of Compilations vol II, p. 401) In the local as well as the national Houses of Justice, however, women have the full right of membership. (Compilations, The Compilation of Compilations vol II, p. 369) 3. Equality includes participation in all branches of the administration of society, at all levels including the highest. In the Dispensation of Bah'll women are advancing side by side with men. There is no area or instance where they will lag behind: they have equal rights with men, and will enter, in the future, into all branches of the administration of society. Such will be their elevation that, in every area of endeavour, they will occupy the highest levels in the human world... (Compilations, The Compilation of Compilations vol II, p. 392) We agree that women must be fully involved at all levels of decision-making . . . (Baha'i International Community, 1990 Feb 27, Equality in Political Participation Decision-Making) We agree that women must be fully involved at all levels of decision-making, not only because it is just, but because, in the Bah view, the full participation of women will hasten social and political progress and lead to the establishment of world peace. (Baha'i International Community, 1990 Feb 27, Equality in Political Participation Decision-Making) For its part, the Bah International Community assures the Commission that it will continue to promote the equality of women and men as an essential prerequisite for peace and social progress, working to ensure that women will be prepared to participate as full partners with men in the council chambers of the world and will become the greatest promoters of international peace and arbitration. (Baha'i International Community, 1990 Feb 27, Equality in Political Participation Decision-Making) 4. Full and equal participation in the affairs of the world, including the arena of laws and politics, will lead to the establishment of world peace. So it will come to pass that when women participate fully and equally in the affairs of the world, when they enter confidently and capably the great arena of laws and politics, war will cease;... (Compilations, The Compilation of Compilations vol II, p. 393) We agree that women must be fully involved at all levels of
RE: UHJ membership and women
In case there was any misunderstanding, I used the topic of women on the Universal House of Justice, as an example in my discussion of limits to promoting ideas, because I thought it would be a good example of a topic that some people might think the House of Justice has tried to repress Dear Jim, Are you aware of the circumstances behind the House's letter to the NSA of New Zealand? warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
