Re: Values should not be time dependent
Dear Tim: Gilberto is evading an answer. Typical of him; doesn't surprise me. He can't say yes because it will make him look stupid. And he can't say no because it would prove your argument. So he evades. Loving reagrds, Iskandar On Thu, 27 Oct 2005, Gilberto Simpson wrote: On 10/27/05, Tim Nolan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Gilberto, And if punishment that severe was valid in 1843, I don't think that anything new has happened, in terms of how hands are put together or in terms of human greed, which would make such a punishment less appropriate. I ask again, do you believe that, for the conditions you named, cutting off a hand is an appropriate punishment for a thief in the 21st century? Please answer yes or no. And again, I answer, nothing new has happened from 1843 to 1844 which changes the nature of human greed or human hands. Or from 1844 to 1845. Or from 1845 to 1846. and so on. Peace Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Values should not be time dependent
Again, another evasive comment that makes no sense at all. Iskandar On Thu, 27 Oct 2005, Gilberto Simpson wrote: On 10/27/05, Scott Saylors [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto, On this list most participants would say that something profound changed in 1844. I understand that. But Tim didn't ask what you thought, he asked what I thought. Now that I know your opinion and you know my opinion let's just move on. -Gilberto Regards, Scott Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: . And again, I answer, nothing new has happened from 1843 to 1844 which changes the nature of human greed or human hands. Or from 1844 to 1845. Or from 1845 to 1846. and so on. Peace Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Values should not be time dependent
Dear Tim, Gilberto will not give you a simple, forthright and honest answer. He just continues to evade and change the subject. And he does that knowingly and deliberately, Iskandar On Fri, 28 Oct 2005, Gilberto Simpson wrote: On 10/27/05, Tim Nolan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Gilberto, Tim wrote: I suggest it is a mistake to become fixated on 1843. It's not as if someone threw a switch that year. Tim continues: I will try to express myself more clearly. I meant that outward circumstances and customs did not change suddenly, they usually change gradually. Ok. Customs and social mores definitely change over time, but those are just the perception of what is wrong and right. I would say that is different from the *actual* moral values. Tim wrote: I ask again, do you believe that, for the conditions you named, cutting off a hand is an appropriate punishment for a thief in the 21st century? Please answer yes or no. [nothing significant happened from 1843 to 1844. From 1844 to 1845. etc.] Gilberto responded: I think answering the question this [way] gets closer to the heart of the matter. Tim continues: I agree, because to say Yes, cutting off a hand is appropriate in the 21st century means approving of a policy which seems barbaric by modern standards. What does barbaric mean? Does that mean you don't like it? Is it just distasteful? Is there a specific moral principle which is being violated? If so which? To say No, it's not appropriate now, is to admit that moral values change over time, and that, what was correct 1300 years ago isn't correct any more. I realize that what might be correct in one situation might not be correct in a different situation but it is not something magical which just happens with the specific situation. Take the Amish for instance. They are consciously living according to a culture from the past. Is it appropriate for them to continue that way or would you impose on them your own expectations of modern life? Peace Gilberto - There are no poets The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Values should not be time dependent
On 10/28/05, Iskandar Hai, M.D. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Tim: Gilberto is evading an answer. Typical of him; doesn't surprise me. He can't say yes because it will make him look stupid. And he can't say no because it would prove your argument. So he evades. Loving reagrds, Iskandar Please don't make personal attacks and then sign off loving regards. And secondly. the reason why I'm answering in the way that I'm answering is to get you to pin down some specific reason for why you think a certain practice is inapproriate/unacceptable/barbaric or whatever word you want to use. (I don't want to put words in your mouth) If a certain action was morally acceptable at one point, but is unacceptable now (or the reverse) then there had to be some moment, or some gradual process in between where the switch happened. And if you say that it happened simply because the Bab or Bahaullah said so, that argument might make sense from a Bahai perspective. But it isn't really convincing otherwise. But if you say that there are certain reasons for why the acceptibility of certain actions changed, I would think that there would be ways of incorporating those reasons and considerations into an Islamic perspective without throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Peace Gilberto On Thu, 27 Oct 2005, Gilberto Simpson wrote: On 10/27/05, Tim Nolan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Gilberto, And if punishment that severe was valid in 1843, I don't think that anything new has happened, in terms of how hands are put together or in terms of human greed, which would make such a punishment less appropriate. I ask again, do you believe that, for the conditions you named, cutting off a hand is an appropriate punishment for a thief in the 21st century? Please answer yes or no. And again, I answer, nothing new has happened from 1843 to 1844 which changes the nature of human greed or human hands. Or from 1844 to 1845. Or from 1845 to 1846. and so on. Peace Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu -- There are no poets __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Values should not be time dependent
Hi Gilberto,
I don't think the values should be time dependent.
The Quran does not explicitly forbid slavery. Granted it encourages
the freeing of slaves, but it does not explicitly say that slavery
is forbidden. That's true isn't it?
If you believe that values should not be time dependent, does
that mean you believe slavery should not be forbidden?
Tim Nolan
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Re: Values should not be time dependent
On 10/27/05, Tim Nolan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Gilberto, I don't think the values should be time dependent. Tim: The Quran does not explicitly forbid slavery. Granted it encourages the freeing of slaves, but it does not explicitly say that slavery is forbidden. That's true isn't it? If you believe that values should not be time dependent, does that mean you believe slavery should not be forbidden? No, because the Quran doesn't teach that slavery is a wonderful institution which we need to hold onto. But within an Islamic government, the state would certainly be able to buy all the slaves, free them, and refuse to make or import more. Peace Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Values should not be time dependent
O.K. How about this:
The Quran says that the punishment for stealing is to have a hand cut off.
Sura 5:
The man thief and the woman thief, cut off the hands of both as a punishment, for that they have erred;- an example from God, for God is mighty, wise.
(The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 5 - The Table)
Do you believe that cutting off a hand is an appropriate punishment for a thief
in the 21st century?
Tim Nolan
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Re: Values should not be time dependent
On 10/27/05, Tim Nolan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: O.K. How about this: The Quran says that the punishment for stealing is to have a hand cut off. Sura 5: The man thief and the woman thief, cut off the hands of both as a punishment, for that they have erred;- an example from God, for God is mighty, wise. (The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 5 - The Table) Do you believe that cutting off a hand is an appropriate punishment for a thief in the 21st century? Firstly, I think that even under Islamic law there are specific conditions put on when such a punishment is warranted. A certain minimum amount of wealth is stolen. It is done by force. You are an adult. sane. You aren't stealing from your parents or family. You aren't stealing due to poverty, hunger or need. etc. Some add as a condition that the state has to meet its obligation to take care of people's economic needs. And if punishment that severe was valid in 1843, I don't think that anything new has happened, in terms of how hands are put together or in terms of human greed, which would make such a punishment less appropriate. Peace Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Values should not be time dependent
Another totally stupid argument. On Thu, 27 Oct 2005, Gilberto Simpson wrote: On 10/27/05, Tim Nolan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: O.K. How about this: The Quran says that the punishment for stealing is to have a hand cut off. Sura 5: The man thief and the woman thief, cut off the hands of both as a punishment, for that they have erred;- an example from God, for God is mighty, wise. (The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 5 - The Table) Do you believe that cutting off a hand is an appropriate punishment for a thief in the 21st century? Firstly, I think that even under Islamic law there are specific conditions put on when such a punishment is warranted. A certain minimum amount of wealth is stolen. It is done by force. You are an adult. sane. You aren't stealing from your parents or family. You aren't stealing due to poverty, hunger or need. etc. Some add as a condition that the state has to meet its obligation to take care of people's economic needs. And if punishment that severe was valid in 1843, I don't think that anything new has happened, in terms of how hands are put together or in terms of human greed, which would make such a punishment less appropriate. Peace Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Values should not be time dependent
Hi Gilberto,
And if punishment that severe was valid in 1843, I don't think thatanything new has happened, in terms of how hands are put together orin terms of human greed, which would make such a punishment lessappropriate.
I ask again, do you believe that, for the conditions you named,
cutting off a hand is an appropriate punishment for a thief in the 21st century?
Please answer yes or no.
Thanks,
Tim Nolan
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Re: Values should not be time dependent
On 10/27/05, Tim Nolan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Gilberto, And if punishment that severe was valid in 1843, I don't think that anything new has happened, in terms of how hands are put together or in terms of human greed, which would make such a punishment less appropriate. I ask again, do you believe that, for the conditions you named, cutting off a hand is an appropriate punishment for a thief in the 21st century? Please answer yes or no. And again, I answer, nothing new has happened from 1843 to 1844 which changes the nature of human greed or human hands. Or from 1844 to 1845. Or from 1845 to 1846. and so on. Peace Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Values should not be time dependent
Gilberto,
On this list most participants would say that something profound changed in 1844.
Regards,
ScottGilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
.And again, I answer, nothing new has happened from 1843 to 1844 whichchanges the nature of human greed or human hands. Or from 1844 to1845. Or from 1845 to 1846. and so on.PeaceGilbertoThe information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail !
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As human beings, we are endowed with freedom of choice, and we cannot shuffle off our responsibility upon the shoulders of God or nature. We must shoulder it ourselves. It is our responsibility. Arnold J. Toynbee
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Re: Values should not be time dependent
Gilberto,
Tim wrote:
I ask again, do you believe that, for the conditions you named, cutting off a hand is an appropriate punishment for a thief in the 21st century? Please answer yes or no.
Gilberto replied:
nothing new has happened from 1843 to 1844 whichchanges the nature of human greed or human hands. Or from 1844 to1845. Or from 1845 to 1846. and so on.
I suggest it is a mistake to become fixated on 1843. It's
not as if someone threw a switch that year.
It seems to me that you are unwilling to say either yes or no
to this question? Why is that?
Tim Nolan
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Re: Values should not be time dependent
On 10/27/05, Scott Saylors [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto, On this list most participants would say that something profound changed in 1844. I understand that. But Tim didn't ask what you thought, he asked what I thought. Now that I know your opinion and you know my opinion let's just move on. -Gilberto Regards, Scott Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: . And again, I answer, nothing new has happened from 1843 to 1844 which changes the nature of human greed or human hands. Or from 1844 to 1845. Or from 1845 to 1846. and so on. Peace Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail ! message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu As human beings, we are endowed with freedom of choice, and we cannot shuffle off our responsibility upon the shoulders of God or nature. We must shoulder it ourselves. It is our responsibility. Arnold J. Toynbee __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu -- There are no poets __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Values should not be time dependent
Dear Gilberto,
Tim wrote:
I suggest it is a mistake to become fixated on 1843. It's not as if someone threw a switch that year.
Tim continues:
I will try to express myself more clearly. I meant that
outward circumstances and customs did not change
suddenly, they usually change gradually.
I do believe that in 1844 (1260 A.H.) the Bab established
a new order of spiritual things.
Tim wrote: I ask again, do you believe that, for the conditions you named, cutting off a hand is an appropriate punishment for a thief in the 21st century? Please answer yes or no.
Gilberto responded:
I think answering the question this gets closer to the heart of the matter.
Tim continues:
I agree, because to say Yes, cutting off a hand is appropriate
in the 21st century means approving of a policy which seems barbaric
by modern standards. To say No, it's not appropriate now, is
to admit that moral values change over time, and that, what was
correct 1300 years ago isn't correct any more. I think either
answer isdifficult for a person who is modern and civilized,
but wants to hold on to a 1300 year old rule.
With friendly thoughts,
Tim Nolan
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Re: Values should not be time dependent
Gilberto: And again, I answer, nothing new has happened from 1843 to 1844 whichchanges the nature of human greed or human hands. Or from 1844 to1845. Or from 1845 to 1846. and so on.Hajir:
Sure there has.
In the Kitab-i-Badi, Baha'u'llah writes: "Open thou thine eyes to behold how a NEW CREATION hath come into being since the year nine (1853)." So, everything, including the nature of human greed and the human hand, HASchanged.
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Re: Values should not be time dependent
On 10/27/05, Tim Nolan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Gilberto, Tim wrote: I suggest it is a mistake to become fixated on 1843. It's not as if someone threw a switch that year. Tim continues: I will try to express myself more clearly. I meant that outward circumstances and customs did not change suddenly, they usually change gradually. Ok. Customs and social mores definitely change over time, but those are just the perception of what is wrong and right. I would say that is different from the *actual* moral values. Tim wrote: I ask again, do you believe that, for the conditions you named, cutting off a hand is an appropriate punishment for a thief in the 21st century? Please answer yes or no. [nothing significant happened from 1843 to 1844. From 1844 to 1845. etc.] Gilberto responded: I think answering the question this [way] gets closer to the heart of the matter. Tim continues: I agree, because to say Yes, cutting off a hand is appropriate in the 21st century means approving of a policy which seems barbaric by modern standards. What does barbaric mean? Does that mean you don't like it? Is it just distasteful? Is there a specific moral principle which is being violated? If so which? To say No, it's not appropriate now, is to admit that moral values change over time, and that, what was correct 1300 years ago isn't correct any more. I realize that what might be correct in one situation might not be correct in a different situation but it is not something magical which just happens with the specific situation. Take the Amish for instance. They are consciously living according to a culture from the past. Is it appropriate for them to continue that way or would you impose on them your own expectations of modern life? Peace Gilberto - There are no poets The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
