subject:"re\: Baha'i Liberation Theology"

Ian,

At 09:06 PM 10/4/2005, you wrote:
>>The methodologies do not need to be "uniform" but they must harmonise and 
>>cannot work at cross-purposes. I suppose one might regard that harmonization 
>>as a kind of uniformity.<<

Uniformity is, IMO, entirely inconsistent with the principle of unity in 
diversity. How can you justify any kind of uniformity from the Baha'i sources?

In terms of harmony, well, it depends on how it is defined. Sometimes harmony 
is simply a euphemism for a suppression of diversity. For instance, I have 
occasionally seen Baha'is, often persons rather well-respected in their Baha'i 
communities, cut off any disagreement on the grounds that it is "disunity." 

>>I disagree. Marxist-Leninism failed to evolve significantly over 70 years - 
>>which is why it either collapsed or is being abandoned.<< 

There is no "it." Communism is simply a name; and the various communisms which 
developed have little similarity, except in vocabulary, with Marx's views.

>>Cuba and North Korea are still Communist to the hilt.<<

Those are two of the places I mentioned. However, from everything I have seen, 
I doubt that they will survive, as dictatorships, for another generation.

>>Viet Nam has already made the first moves away from Communism. Both Cuba and 
>>N. Korea are clear demonstrations that Marxism/Communism simply doesn't work 
>>as a basis for society-building or economics.<<

Again, you are "essentializing," to use Popper's term, a category. There is no 
such *thing* as communism.

>>Having learned from Russia's mistake, China is dismantling Communism one step 
>>at a time; the Chinese know Marxism and Communism just don't work. North Viet 
>>Vam is making similar moves.<<

Capitalism in China is cementing the divide between the new class of 
industrialists and the peasants.

>>Trotsky stood up to Stalin's dictatorship simply in order to impose his own.<<

It was not "his own." Trotsky wanted to see a worker's revolution and 
dictatorship.

>>The point of the quotes from Lynch is that Trotsky has nothing to offer us 
>>and we Baha'is have no need of anything he has to offer.<<

I do not connect Marxism with the Baha'i Faith. When I refer to Marxism, I am 
not speaking as a Baha'i but as a critical sociologist.

>>Do you take that seriously? Has there ever been the slightest sign of any 
>>communist leader anywhere at any time ever taking that seriously? This is the 
>>honey to catch the flies.<<

Engels was not a politician. He was a revolutionary and an author. He was not 
responsible for what other people did in his and Marx's names.

>>I'm surprised to hear that since you brought up Trotskyism often enough to 
>>make me and possibly others think you saw some kind of connection.<<

I have said many times on this list that I do not. There may be some 
connections. I have read papers which have attempted to explore them. However, 
*all* of them struck me as academically weak and poorly constructed. 

>>If you want to communicate effectively with other people, you're going to 
>>have to take some note of what words generally mean in the public sphere and 
>>not just what they mean to you personally. Otherwise we're down to private 
>>languages (remember Wittgenstein).<<

I don't know what else I can do except to repeat that I am not advocating 
partisan political activity. I have said so many times. However, I am not going 
to abandon Marxism and post-Marxism because some people want to read into my 
comments their own viewpoints.

>>Yes, Stalin followed in Lenin's footsteps in many important respects. Check 
>>out the quotes from the article I sent in the last post.<<

Lenin *tried* to follow Marx in some areas. Stalin simply threw Marx out the 
window and retained only the vocabulary. (It was that vocabulary which Stalin 
shared with Lenin.) In Stalin's Soviet Union, Marx and Engels would likely have 
ended up in a gulag.

>>The Communist party regards itself as the vanguard which represents the true 
>>interests of the proletariat and, therefore, its rule is the dictatorship of 
>>the proletariat. If the intelligentsia are working within the Communist Party 
>>and subservient to its goals, they are in fact, representing the best 
>>interests of the proletariat.<<

They can say so, but you would not be able to find anything in Marx which would 
have justified it. The proletariat was oppressed in the Soviet Union, and no 
amount of spinning by the Politburo or Pravda could change that.

>>The fact is we have to communicate to a far larger audience than the tiny 
>>collective of religious scholars and sociologists.<<

However, this is a Baha'i Studies list. I do not abandon a vocabulary because 
non-specialists may find it disagreeable. 

>>Nonsense. Researchers, thinkers, etc. can legitimise things just by talking 
>>about them. Take 'recovered memory syndrome' for example, which became 
>>legitimised to the point of sending people to jail. (Fortunately some other 
>>academics put an end t

RE: Baha'i Liberation "Theology"

Tim,

At 09:35 PM 10/4/2005, you wrote:
>>Hey that's a fun game, can I play too?<<

Obviously, I would not refer to liberation theology if I didn't admire some of 
the other liberation theologies. However, liberation theology is not an 
unembodied universal. Apart from a particular religious context, there is no 
liberation theology. In that sense, it is more methodological than substantive.

>>How about a group of goodhearted scholars who enjoy doing needlework?  They 
>>are the Kindly Knowledgeable Knitters... otherwise known as the  KKK. As you 
>>say, KKK is just a term, it depends on how you define it.<<

I don't see how that relates to the issue. I did not pull the term "liberation 
theology" out of the air. I am using it because I find some other liberation 
theologies to be appealing.

>>As Humpty Dumpty said "a word means just what I choose it to mean." :^)  :^)<<

IMO, that is true by definition.

Via moderna, Mark A. Foster . http://markfoster.net
... [a] word is ... a universal. - William of Ockham
Structurization Tech: http://tech.structurization.com 

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RE: Baha'i Liberation "Theology"

2005-10-04 Thread Tim Nolan







Hi Mark,
 
>"Liberation theology" is just a term, and it depends on how you define it.<
 
Hey that's a fun game, can I play too?
 
How about a group of goodhearted scholars who enjoy
doing needlework?  They are the Kindly Knowledgeable Knitters...
otherwise known as the  KKK. As you say, KKK is just a term,
it depends on how you define it.
 
Here's another one:  A group of Canadians who like to
put inked stamps on striped wild horses.  They are
the North American Zebra Inkers(NAZIs)
Hey, as you say, Nazi is just a term, it depends on 
how you define it.
As Humpty Dumpty said "a word means just what I choose it to mean."
:^)  :^)
 
Tim Nolan
		Yahoo! for Good 
Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. 






 
 

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RE: Baha'i Liberation "Theology" ((long quote))

2005-10-04 Thread Ian Kluge

Dear Mark, 

You write:

"The "goals" are contained in the Plans from the House of Justice, the
national plans formulated by NSAs, etc. I see no reason why the achievement
of those goals cannot be accomplished with the framework of the Baha'i
principle of unity in diversity. Shared goals do not necessarily demand
uniform methodologies."

The methodologies do not need to be "uniform" but they must harmonise and
cannot work at cross-purposes. I suppose one might regard that harmonization
as a kind of uniformity. 

You write: 

"The Marxism-Lenism of Shoghi Effendi's day is about gone. Most so-called
communist states today - with the exception of Cuba, North Korea, and one or
two former Soviet republics (some would include Russia) - are are really
authoritarian or right-wing (not totalitarian) dictatorships. They have
varying degrees of centralized political control accompanied by private
enterprise."

I disagree. Marxist-Leninism failed to evolve significantly over 70 years -
which is why it either collapsed or is being abandoned. Cuba and North Korea
are still Communist to the hilt. Viet Nam has already made the first moves
away from Communism. Both Cuba and N. Korea are clear demonstrations that
Marxism/Communism simply doesn't work as a basis for society-building or
economics. 

You write:

"Communism is merely a name or a category. Are China and North Vietnam
communist? Some people think so, but not by my definition."

Having learned from Russia's mistake, China is dismantling Communism one
step at a time; the Chinese know Marxism and Communism just don't work.
North Viet Vam is making similar moves. 

You write: 

"I am not talking about his character. I am referring to his willingness to
stand up to the Stalinist perversion ("state capitalism") of Marx's ideas.
As far as his extreme behavior goes, that is part and parcel of being a
revolutionary. A gentle political revolutionary is no revolutionary at all."

Trotsky stood up to Stalin's dictatorship simply in order to impose his own.


"State capitalism" is exactly what Marx leads to. Only the Left Communists
imagined it otherwise - and they never got anywhere precisely because they
were fighting what was clearly present in Marx et al. 

You write:

>>Trotsky's enforced militarisation of labour, his crushing of the trade
unions, the extreme methods he used to discipline the Red Army, his savagery
against the Kronstadt rebels in 1921, and his ferocity towards the Russian
peasantry undermine the romantic image of him as `the angel of
enlightenment' in an otherwise cruel world.<<

"I don't know anyone who likes Trotsky because he was a sweetheart,"

IAN: 

The point of the quotes from Lynch is that Trotsky has nothing to offer us
and we Baha'is have no need of anything he has to offer. 

You write:

>>(2) "The road to socialism lies through the highest concentration of state
power.<<

That is the road to socialism, yes. However, in communism, "even the state
will wither away and die," as Engels wrote in the last volume of Das
Kapital."

IAN:

Do you take that seriously? Has there ever been the slightest sign of any
communist leader anywhere at any time ever taking that seriously? This is
the honey to catch the flies. 

You write

"I have never, and would never, compare Trotsky to Baha'is. I see no
connection."

IAN:

I'm surprised to hear that since you brought up Trotskyism often enough to
make me and possibly others think you saw some kind of connection. 

You write: 

"However, I explicitly said, Ian, that I am not advocating involvement in
partisan politics. Marxism, like communism, is not a thing. My construction
of Marxism (so-called post-Marxism) is obviously not what you have in your
head."

IAN:

If you want to communicate effectively with other people, you're going to
have to take some note of what words generally mean in the public sphere and
not just what they mean to you personally. Otherwise we're down to private
languages (remember Wittgenstein).

You write:

>>I get the impression you subscribe to the notion that all of Communism's
evils can be placed at Stalin's door. Stalin simply followed in Lenin's
footsteps; both based themselves on Marx's severely flawed social and
historical analysis.<<

"Followed in Lenin's footsteps???"

IAN: 

Yes, Stalin followed in Lenin's footsteps in many important respects. Check
out the quotes from the article I sent in the last post. 


You write: 

>>Not really. Stalin simply put into practice Marx's dictatorship of the
proletariat and his dictum that violence [force] is the midwife of history.
(Das Kapital)<<

Impossible. Marx's dictatorship of the proletariat (socialism) was a, um,
dictatorship of the *proletariat*. Russia was never a capitalist state
(really more feudal) and, therefore, could not have a dictatorship of the
proletariat. The Soviet Union, during and after Stalin, was a dictatorship
of the intelligentsia."

IAN:

The Communist party regards itself as the vanguard which represents the true

RE: Baha'i Liberation "Theology" ((long quote))

Ian,

At 11:28 AM 10/4/2005, you wrote:
>>Working effectively for a cause requires (a) working for the same ultimate 
>>goals, (b) working for proximate goals that, at the very least, do not 
>>contradict each other, (c) co-ordinating efforts i.e. adopting methodologies 
>>that harmonise and do not work at cross-purposes and (d) setting aside a lot 
>>of personal preferences. All this used to be called "party discipline" in the 
>>Communist parties.<<

The "goals" are contained in the Plans from the House of Justice, the national 
plans formulated by NSAs, etc. I see no reason why the achievement of those 
goals cannot be accomplished with the framework of the Baha'i principle of 
unity in diversity. Shared goals do not necessarily demand uniform 
methodologies.

>>That's a pretty good list though I think Shoghi Effendi talks about 
>>"unbridled capitalism" rather than "corporate capitalism." I would also add 
>>Communism. The Guardian calls it one of the "three false gods" (The Promised 
>>Day is Come 113) and says,<<

The Marxism-Lenism of Shoghi Effendi's day is about gone. Most so-called 
communist states today - with the exception of Cuba, North Korea, and one or 
two former Soviet republics (some would include Russia) - are are really 
authoritarian or right-wing (not totalitarian) dictatorships. They have varying 
degrees of centralized political control accompanied by private enterprise.

Communism is merely a name or a category. Are China and North Vietnam 
communist? Some people think so, but not by my definition.

>>Why not? Trotsky was a thoroughly unpleasant piece of baggage both as a man 
>>and in his ideas. I'm not sure why you admire him so much. The following is 
>>by Michael Lynch in the History Review, 1999)<<

I am not talking about his character. I am referring to his willingness to 
stand up to the Stalinist perversion ("state capitalism") of Marx's ideas. As 
far as his extreme behavior goes, that is part and parcel of being a 
revolutionary. A gentle political revolutionary is no revolutionary at all.

>>"Stalinism, therefore, was not a reversal of Leninism but a continuation of 
>>it."<<

Continuation? Sure. But it was a *progression* of Marxist-Leninism.

>>Trotsky's enforced militarisation of labour, his crushing of the trade 
>>unions, the extreme methods he used to discipline the Red Army, his savagery 
>>against the Kronstadt rebels in 1921, and his ferocity towards the Russian 
>>peasantry undermine the romantic image of him as `the angel of enlightenment' 
>>in an otherwise cruel world.<<

I don't know anyone who likes Trotsky because he was a sweetheart,

>>(2) "The road to socialism lies through the highest concentration of state 
>>power.<<

That is the road to socialism, yes. However, in communism, "even the state will 
wither away and die," as Engels wrote in the last volume of Das Kapital.

>>Nothing about Trotsky or his career suggests that he is a suitable role model 
>>or intellectual partner for Baha'is.<<

I have never, and would never, compare Trotsky to Baha'is. I see no connection.

>>I disagree on both counts. Stalin was the logical outcome of Marx and Lenin. 
>>I don't subscribe to the view of Stalin's exceptionalism, i.e. the view that 
>>Stalin was somehow an anomaly in the development of Communism/Marxism.<<

Exceptionalism presumes linguistic realism, i.e., that the word "communist" is 
real. However, "communism" is a name for a variety of views - some more 
consistent with Marx's views than others. There is no such *thing* as a 
communist. It is a category or social construction.

>>If we engage in partisan politics we will find ourselves as de facto allies 
>>with all sorts of unsavoury rabble. We have to bear in mind the old folk 
>>saying, "When you sup with the devil make sure you bring a long spoon."<<

However, I explicitly said, Ian, that I am not advocating involvement in 
partisan politics. Marxism, like communism, is not a thing. My construction of 
Marxism (so-called post-Marxism) is obviously not what you have in your head.

>>I get the impression you subscribe to the notion that all of Communism's 
>>evils can be placed at Stalin's door. Stalin simply followed in Lenin's 
>>footsteps; both based themselves on Marx's severely flawed social and 
>>historical analysis.<<

Followed in Lenin's footsteps???

>>Not really. Stalin simply put into practice Marx's dictatorship of the 
>>proletariat and his dictum that violence [force] is the midwife of history. 
>>(Das Kapital)<<

Impossible. Marx's dictatorship of the proletariat (socialism) was a, um, 
dictatorship of the *proletariat*. Russia was never a capitalist state (really 
more feudal) and, therefore, could not have a dictatorship of the proletariat. 
The Soviet Union, during and after Stalin, was a dictatorship of the 
intelligentsia.

>>Yes, I have always understood that - but nonetheless I would point out that 
>>this usage is confusing and easily leads to misunderstanding.<<

It is not c

RE: Baha'i Liberation "Theology" ((long quote))

2005-10-04 Thread Ian Kluge

Dear Mark, 

You ask:

"Does unity of thought and action require that everyone has the same views
and uses the same approaches? That is not my understanding of the concept."

Working effectively for a cause requires (a) working for the same ultimate
goals, (b) working for proximate goals that, at the very least, do not
contradict each other, (c) co-ordinating efforts i.e. adopting methodologies
that harmonise and do not work at cross-purposes and (d) setting aside a lot
of personal preferences. All this used to be called "party discipline" in
the Communist parties. 

You write: 

"Liberation theology" is just a term, and it depends on how you define it.
However, if you are saying that liberation from injustice, oppression,
racism, sexism, militant nationalism, corporate capitalism, etc. are
important themes in the Baha'i primary sources, including the letters by
(and on behalf of) the Universal House of Justice, I would agree with you."

That's a pretty good list though I think Shoghi Effendi talks about
"unbridled capitalism" rather than "corporate capitalism." I would also add
Communism. The Guardian calls it one of the "three false gods" (The Promised
Day is Come 113) and says, 

"The chief idols in the desecrated temple of mankind are none other than the
triple gods of Nationalism, Racialism and *Communism*, at whose altars
governments and peoples, whether democratic or totalitarian, at peace or at
war, of the East or of the West, Christian or Islamic, are, in various forms
and in different degrees, now worshiping." (The Promised Day is Come 113) 

You write:

"As I said earlier in this thread, I am not advocating any form of partisan
political activity. On the other hand, I would not want to place communists
(at least Trotskyites) in the same category as fascists and extreme
nationalists." 

IAN:

Why not? Trotsky was a thoroughly unpleasant piece of baggage both as a man
and in his ideas. I'm not sure why you admire him so much. The following is
by Michael Lynch in the History Review, 1999) 

" Was  Trotskyism a humane alternative to Stalinism?

There are still those who regard Trotsky as the Communist with the human
touch, the man who would have led the Russian Revolution towards democratic
socialism. But this interpretation is hard to sustain in the face of the
record of his fanatical behaviour as a Soviet commissar between 1917 and
1921. In the 1990s, Dmitri Volkogonov, the Russian biographer of Lenin,
Stalin and Trotsky, produced evidence from previously unexamined Russian
state papers to show that Lenin and Trotsky had worked together on a
deliberate policy of terror that precisely foreshadowed the later Stalinist
tyranny. Stalinism, therefore, was not a reversal of Leninism but a
continuation of it. Trotsky's enforced militarisation of labour, his
crushing of the trade unions, the extreme methods he used to discipline the
Red Army, his savagery against the Kronstadt rebels in 1921, and his
ferocity towards the Russian peasantry undermine the romantic image of him
as `the angel of enlightenment' in an otherwise cruel world.

In exile, Trotsky denounced Stalinism not because it was brutal but because
it was brutal for the wrong reasons. All the signs were that, had Trotsky
had the opportunity to enforce his concept of revolution on the Bolshevik
state, he would have used very similar means to those that Stalin employed.
Absolute authority was the necessary requirement of Bolshevik rule. Long
before Stalin imposed himself on the Party, Trotsky had supported Lenin in
the creation of the one-party totalitarian state, with its secret police,
show trials, and prison camps. Trotsky believed unashamedly in state
terror." Micheal Lynch, "Trotsky: Angel of Enlightenment or Frustrated
Dictator?" (Michael Lynch, "History Review" 1999)

Some Trotksy quotes: (1) "Murder, lies and treachery are immoral and
shameful if they are harmful to  the cause of the proletarian revolution;
these same lies, treachery and  murder are moral and laudable if they serve
this revolution.'

(2) "The road to socialism lies through the highest concentration of state 
 power. Like a light bulb which, before extinguishing itself, flashes 
 brightly, so the state prior to its disappearance takes the form of the 
 dictatorship of the proletariat, i.e. of the most pitiless state, which 
 coercively controls the life of the citizens in all its aspects.'"

Nothing about Trotsky or his career suggests that he is a suitable role
model or intellectual partner for Baha'is. 

You write:  

"I also believe that corporate capitalism and other forms of (what I would
consider to be) state-sponsored terrorism are much more problematic than
Stalinism (however much I may disagree with Stalin's bastardization of
Marx's views)."

I disagree on both counts. Stalin was the logical outcome of Marx and Lenin.
I don't subscribe to the view of Stalin's exceptionalism, i.e. the view that
Stalin was somehow an anomaly in the development of Communism/Marxism.

RE: Baha'i Liberation "Theology" ((long quote))

Susan,

At 11:08 PM 10/3/2005, you wrote:
>>It was the UFW that finally succeeded in organizing most of the grape 
>>pickers.<<

They did ultimately, yes.

>>They got started in the 60's but it was largely thanks to the boycott that 
>>they were finally successful, especially with Gallo.<< 

That was what my friend Stephanie Erickson believed, too. ;-) She and I were 
the two most active members of our chapter of the STC (in 7th grade). I never 
thought so. I always attributed it to media publicity. In 1968-1969 (?), 
Stephanie and I organized several demonstrations in front of a local 
supermarket which sold the grapes. (About a year later, someone burned the 
place down. They eventually found the perpetrator. Fortunately, he had nothing 
to do with us, but he was my next-door neighbor's son!)

>>I went without eating grapes for nearly a decade during that period.<<

I probably lasted about half that time, and I also persuaded my parents to do 
it for a while. However, they did purchase California wine, which I thought 
kind of defeated the purpose.

>>When the UFW tried to organize workers in other agricultural sector the 
>>Teamsters moved in and signed sweetheart contracts with the management. I 
>>worked for a frozen food packing company and ended up quitting rather than 
>>join the Teamsters. In my mind, that was like joining the Mafia!<<

They did seem to have had those connections. 

Via moderna, Mark A. Foster . http://markfoster.net
... [a] word is ... a universal. - William of Ockham
Structurization Tech: http://tech.structurization.com 

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RE: Baha'i Liberation "Theology" ((long quote))

>>I didn't know you were referring to the UFW.
 That union was started in the early to mid 60s - before the petitions even
got started. I thought you meant the Teamsters. Of course, the UFW and the
Teamsters never really got along.<<

Dear Mark,

It was the UFW that finally succeeded in organizing most of the grape
pickers. They got started in the 60's but it was largely thanks to the
boycott that they were finally successful, especially with Gallo. I went
without eating grapes for nearly a decade during that period. When the UFW
tried to organize workers in other agricultural sector the Teamsters moved
in and signed sweetheart contracts with the management. I worked for a
frozen food packing company and ended up quitting rather than join the
Teamsters. In my mind, that was like joining the Mafia!

warmest, Susan



 
 
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RE: Baha'i Liberation "Theology" ((long quote))

Hi, Susan,

At 10:17 PM 10/3/2005, you wrote:
>>The United Farmworkers was a pretty home-grown movement. It took years forthe 
>>AFL-CIO to even recognize them. And the Teamsters only signed sweetheart 
>>contracts.<<

>>I didn't know you were referring to the UFW. That union was started in the 
>>early to mid 60s - before the petitions even got started. I thought you meant 
>>the Teamsters. Of course, the UFW and the Teamsters never really got along.<<

Via moderna, Mark A. Foster . http://markfoster.net
... [a] word is ... a universal. - William of Ockham
Structurization Tech: http://tech.structurization.com 

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RE: Baha'i Liberation "Theology" ((long quote))

"I agree, but do you think it was a result of the boycotts? As I see it, it
was the media focus which led to unions becoming interested in the
population."

Dear Mark,

The United Farmworkers was a pretty home-grown movement. It took years for
the AFL-CIO to even recognize them. And the Teamsters only signed sweetheart
contracts.

warmest, Susan



 
 
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RE: Baha'i Liberation "Theology" ((long quote))

Susan,

At 09:57 PM 10/3/2005, you wrote:
>>Yeah, but Gallo was forced to unionize. That was no small victory.<<

I agree, but do you think it was a result of the boycotts? As I see it, it was 
the media focus which led to unions becoming interested in the population.

Via moderna, Mark A. Foster . http://markfoster.net
... [a] word is ... a universal. - William of Ockham
Structurization Tech: http://tech.structurization.com 



 
 
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RE: Baha'i Liberation "Theology" ((long quote))

Susan,

At 09:57 PM 10/3/2005, you wrote:
>>They were pretty effective against South Africa.<<

That is what some governments claimed. Personally, I did not buy it. South 
Africa abandoned Apartheid because of popular dissent; and the support for it 
among whites had declined, as well. It was, in part, this lack of support among 
the Afrikaaners which contributed to the rise of Neo-Nazi groups in the country.

Via moderna, Mark A. Foster . http://markfoster.net
... [a] word is ... a universal. - William of Ockham
Structurization Tech: http://tech.structurization.com 



 
 
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RE: Baha'i Liberation "Theology" ((long quote))

"Sure, but boycotts are rarely effective."

Dear Mark,

They were pretty effective against South Africa.


"Back in the late 60s, when I was a member my school's chapter of the
Students' Democratic Coalition (affiliated with the SDS), I handed out
petitions to boycott California grapes. A lot of us participated, and, all
over the country, we got tens of thousands of returned petitions.

Well, the economic abuse of migrant workers is still going on."

Yeah, but Gallo was forced to unionize. That was no small victory.

warmest, Susan



 
 
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RE: Baha'i Liberation "Theology" ((long quote))

Susan,

At 09:06 PM 10/3/2005, you wrote:
>>Well, as I said Baha'is are free to join in boycotts of the worst 
>>multi-national offenders. And one doesn't even have to get involved in 
>>politics to do that.<<

Sure, but boycotts are rarely effective. Most people seem to have a short 
attention span.

Back in the late 60s, when I was a member my school's chapter of the Students' 
Democratic Coalition (affiliated with the SDS), I handed out petitions to 
boycott California grapes. A lot of us participated, and, all over the country, 
we got tens of thousands of returned petitions. 

Well, the economic abuse of migrant workers is still going on. Unfortunately, 
comparing social problems to clothing, we have what one writer called "a 
designer social consciousness." The problems didn't go away, but we did.

Via moderna, Mark A. Foster . http://markfoster.net
... [a] word is ... a universal. - William of Ockham
Structurization Tech: http://tech.structurization.com 

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RE: Baha'i Liberation "Theology" ((long quote))

"Importers, such as the U.S., have little incentive to protest; and any
outrage is drowned out by the demand for cheaper goods"

Dear Mark,

Well, as I said Baha'is are free to join in boycotts of the worst
multi-national offenders. And one doesn't even have to get involved in
politics to do that.

warmest, Susan



 
 
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RE: Baha'i Liberation "Theology" ((long quote))

Susan,

At 07:34 PM 10/3/2005, you wrote:
>>It can be if there is sufficient enforcement. And one of the ways to enforce 
>>it is to outlaw the import of any goods produced by child labor. If you do 
>>that, then adults will have to be hired which raises the wages and when adult 
>>wages are raised, children don't have to work.<<

If there are any new "false gods," they would probably include the WTO and 
globalization. Importers, such as the U.S., have little incentive to protest; 
and any outrage is drowned out by the demand for cheaper goods, 

Via moderna, Mark A. Foster . http://markfoster.net
... [a] word is ... a universal. - William of Ockham
Structurization Tech: http://tech.structurization.com 

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RE: Baha'i Liberation "Theology" ((long quote))

"The issue is *how* to eliminate child labor. It obviously cannot be
eradicated merely by outlawing it."

Dear Mark,

It can be if there is sufficient enforcement. And one of the ways to enforce
it is to outlaw the import of any goods produced by child labor. If you do
that, then adults will have to be hired which raises the wages and when
adult wages are raised, children don't have to work.

warmest, Susan



 
 
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RE: Baha'i Liberation "Theology" ((long quote))

Susan,

At 06:56 PM 10/3/2005, you wrote:
>>Those classes which find it necessary to have their children work are rarely 
>>those who have access to a college education in any case.<<

They are the underclass, and child labor is one of the oppressive residues of 
the classism (the ideology) in those societies. As full-time child laborers 
they have almost no hope at all of escaping their predicament.  

The issue is *how* to eliminate child labor. It obviously cannot be eradicated 
merely by outlawing it. The caste-based modes of social stratification which 
characterize both China and India need to be adjusted and corrected. 

Via moderna, Mark A. Foster . http://markfoster.net
... [a] word is ... a universal. - William of Ockham
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RE: Baha'i Liberation "Theology" ((long quote))

"True, but some of those societies are places like China and India.
Receiving a baccalaureate is, in some ways, even more important in these two
countries than in the U.S. or Western Europe; and child labor, by keeping
people mired in the underclass, makes that unlikely."

Dear Mark,

Those classes which find it necessary to have their children work are rarely
those who have access to a college education in any case.

warmest, Susan



 
 
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RE: Baha'i Liberation "Theology" ((long quote))

Ian,

At 05:33 PM 10/3/2005, you wrote:
>>If a so-called 'Baha'i liberation theology' cannot provide or exemplify unity 
>>of thought and action, it will soon become part of the problem that 
>>Baha'u'llah came to solve rather than a solution.<<

Does unity of thought and action require that everyone has the same views and 
uses the same approaches? That is not my understanding of the concept.

>>Perhaps it is better to realise that the Baha'i Faith *is* a liberation 
>>theology as it stands. To be sure, this aspect needs further explication, but 
>>the foundations are already in the Writings and the guidance of the Universal 
>>House of Justice.<<

"Liberation theology" is just a term, and it depends on how you define it. 
However, if you are saying that liberation from injustice, oppression, racism, 
sexism, militant nationalism, corporate capitalism, etc. are important themes 
in the Baha'i primary sources, including the letters by (and on behalf of) the 
Universal House of Justice, I would agree with you.

>>There are certainly 'sides' in some of the activities in which a Baha'i 
>>liberation theology could be involved. Like it or not, Baha'i  activists 
>>would find themselves 'marching' side-by-side with - and providing tacit 
>>support and/or legitimacy to -  anarchists both violent and non-violent, 
>>various kinds of communists, extreme nationalists and fascists and  worse - 
>>as has happened at anti-globalization marches and other kinds of 
>>demonstrations for various causes.<< 

As I said earlier in this thread, I am not advocating any form of partisan 
political activity. On the other hand, I would not want to place communists (at 
least Trotskyites) in the same category as fascists and extreme nationalists. 

I also believe that corporate capitalism and other forms of (what I would 
consider to be) state-sponsored terrorism are much more problematic than 
Stalinism (however much I may disagree with Stalin's bastardization of Marx's 
views).

>>We may not want to be identified with such people but if we walk with them we 
>>will be.<<

I am not sure where you got the idea that I am suggesting what you wrote.

>>Whether you or anyone else thinks Marxism hasn't been discredited doesn' 
>>really matter. The facts are clear: with the exception of Cuba (whose 
>>national anthem is "Row, row, row your boat [to Miami]"), all countries that 
>>tried Marxism as the basis of society and economics either have abandoned it 
>>or are in the process of doing so.<<

I was no great supporter of the Stalinist and post-Stalinist USSR or of 
post-Maoist China (even prior to its consolidation into the WTO). However, I 
frankly see corporate capitalism and its state sponsors to be much more 
dangerous. At least some of them, both state and corporate actors, have, in the 
last 4 years, become involved in two destructive wars in Asia, and I feel I 
have good reason to be concerned over the future.

>>Their experience and their actions speak louder than any theoretical flights 
>>of fancy by those who have never experienced Marxism in real life.<<

Well, Stalinism is Stalinism, not Marxism.

>>As for the notion that there are many Baha'i faiths, we have already 
>>discussed this once before and I can only repeat my position: there is only 
>>one Baha'i Faith and many understandings/versions of it.<< 

IMO, you are responding to the terminology as *you*, not as I, would use it. 
When I say there are many Baha'i faiths (small "f"), it is precisely the "many 
understandings/versions of it" that I have in mind.

>>IOW, the Writings embody the perfect model of the Baha'i Faith and 
>>(ultimately) the Universal House of Justice ensures that all local and 
>>personal versions harmonise with that perfect model. Calling these local and 
>>individual versions Baha'i faiths (with a small 'f') simply confuses the 
>>issue.<<

I may be confusing in the contexts of some "Baha'i faiths," but not in my own. 
;-) 

Via moderna, Mark A. Foster . http://markfoster.net
... [a] word is ... a universal. - William of Ockham
Structurization Tech: http://tech.structurization.com 

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RE: Baha'i Liberation "Theology" ((long quote))

2005-10-03 Thread Ian Kluge

Dear Mark, 

If a so-called 'Baha'i liberation theology' cannot provide or exemplify
unity of thought and action, it will soon become part of the problem that
Baha'u'llah came to solve rather than a solution. 

Perhaps it is better to realise that the Baha'i Faith *is* a liberation
theology as it stands. To be sure, this aspect needs further explication,
but the foundations are already in the Writings and the guidance of the
Universal House of Justice. 

There are certainly 'sides' in some of the activities in which a Baha'i
liberation theology could be involved. Like it or not, Baha'i  activists
would find themselves 'marching' side-by-side with - and providing tacit
support and/or legitimacy to -  anarchists both violent and non-violent,
various kinds of communists, extreme nationalists and fascists and  worse -
as has happened at anti-globalization marches and other kinds of
demonstrations for various causes. We may not want to be identified with
such people but if we walk with them we will be. 

Whether you or anyone else thinks Marxism hasn't been discredited doesn't
really matter. The facts are clear: with the exception of Cuba (whose
national anthem is "Row, row, row your boat [to Miami]"), all countries that
tried Marxism as the basis of society and economics either have abandoned it
or are in the process of doing so. Their experience and their actions speak
louder than any theoretical flights of fancy by those who have never
experienced Marxism in real life.  

As for the notion that there are many Baha'i faiths, we have already
discussed this once before and I can only repeat my position: there is only
one Baha'i Faith and many understandings/versions of it. IOW, the Writings
embody the perfect model of the Baha'i Faith and (ultimately) the Universal
House of Justice ensures that all local and personal versions harmonise with
that perfect model. Calling these local and individual versions Baha'i
faiths (with a small 'f') simply confuses the issue. 

Best wishes,

Ian Kluge 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark A. Foster
Sent: October 3, 2005 1:34 PM
To: Baha'i Studies
Subject: RE: Baha'i Liberation "Theology" ((long quote))

Ian,

At 11:18 AM 10/3/2005, you wrote:
>>In the exchanges already seen, we observe the main problem in establishing
a Baha'i liberation theology: disunity.<<

I am not sure if that can be a measure of a useful construction. People,
including Baha'is, disagree on all sorts of things. 

Personally, I like coming up with different constructions, thought
experiments, and language games - then seeing where they lead. I do that
both in sociology and in the Baha'i Faith. I think that this practice can be
productive - as long as one does not become overly attached to one's ideas
and is open to whatever evidence may present itself.

>>There is simply no agreement on what constitutes a problem - and more
importantly, by what means to seek a solution. Moreover, we also have the
problems caused by those who are - supposedly - on 'our side' but whose
presence or 'support' weakens whatever cause we work for.<<

I don't see it as a "side." I see it as the construction of a "Baha'i faith"
(lower-case "f"), i.e., as religious ecology. I explain this idea in one of
my papers:

"Numerous approaches to scriptural hermeneutics have been developed. The
revealed Word, the transmission of the knowledge of God, might be compared
with a driver; historicism, the Prophetic ecology of the dialectical God-Man
and His Revelation situated in their original cultural, historical, bodily,
and linguistic contexts, to the vehicle; and religous ecology (or cultural
syncretism), the recontextualizations of the revealed Word into multiple
normative structurizations, to the destination.
"A distinction can, therefore, be drawn between religion as divine
Revelation and religion as social construction. The first, Prophetic
ecology, is the proclamation of the Word of God, the Logos, or the Teachings
of an embodied Messenger to a peculiarized cultural, historical, and
physical audience. The second, designated as religious ecology, is a
fundamentally human phenomenon.
"From the standpoint of religious ecology, revealed religions do not
operate in a vacuum. Rather, given the dynamic interplay between an original
Revelation and the individuals and groups which receive it, one may speak of
multiple Judaisms, Buddhisms, Christianities, Islams, Bahá'í faiths, etc.
"Ergo, the Bahá'í faith in Iran is not precisely the Bahá'í faith in the
United States. In the latter, the Bahá'í Faith has been commingled, among
diverse persons and groups, with elements of Protestantism, the New Age

RE: Baha'i Liberation "Theology" ((long quote))

Ian,

At 11:18 AM 10/3/2005, you wrote:
>>In the exchanges already seen, we observe the main problem in establishing a 
>>Baha'i liberation theology: disunity.<<

I am not sure if that can be a measure of a useful construction. People, 
including Baha'is, disagree on all sorts of things. 

Personally, I like coming up with different constructions, thought experiments, 
and language games - then seeing where they lead. I do that both in sociology 
and in the Baha'i Faith. I think that this practice can be productive - as long 
as one does not become overly attached to one's ideas and is open to whatever 
evidence may present itself.

>>There is simply no agreement on what constitutes a problem - and more 
>>importantly, by what means to seek a solution. Moreover, we also have the 
>>problems caused by those who are - supposedly - on 'our side' but whose 
>>presence or 'support' weakens whatever cause we work for.<<

I don't see it as a "side." I see it as the construction of a "Baha'i faith" 
(lower-case "f"), i.e., as religious ecology. I explain this idea in one of my 
papers:

"Numerous approaches to scriptural hermeneutics have been developed. The 
revealed Word, the transmission of the knowledge of God, might be compared with 
a driver; historicism, the Prophetic ecology of the dialectical God-Man and His 
Revelation situated in their original cultural, historical, bodily, and 
linguistic contexts, to the vehicle; and religous ecology (or cultural 
syncretism), the recontextualizations of the revealed Word into multiple 
normative structurizations, to the destination.
"A distinction can, therefore, be drawn between religion as divine 
Revelation and religion as social construction. The first, Prophetic ecology, 
is the proclamation of the Word of God, the Logos, or the Teachings of an 
embodied Messenger to a peculiarized cultural, historical, and physical 
audience. The second, designated as religious ecology, is a fundamentally human 
phenomenon.
"From the standpoint of religious ecology, revealed religions do not 
operate in a vacuum. Rather, given the dynamic interplay between an original 
Revelation and the individuals and groups which receive it, one may speak of 
multiple Judaisms, Buddhisms, Christianities, Islams, Bahá'í faiths, etc.
"Ergo, the Bahá'í faith in Iran is not precisely the Bahá'í faith in the 
United States. In the latter, the Bahá'í Faith has been commingled, among 
diverse persons and groups, with elements of Protestantism, the New Age 
Movement, New Thought, the Enlightenment project, and other systems of thought. 
While this religious ecology is inevitable, as Bahá'ís refashion their 
understandings of their literature and as their social situations change, their 
Bahá'í faiths will also presumably undergo modification. 
"Acknowledging that narratives are inexact and perspectival (as with the 
Jain doctrine of anakanta), allowing for diverse, even contradictory, divine 
and human reality constructions, one should simultaneously recognize, even 
advocate and celebrate, a radical multidoxy or polydoxy of variegated Bahá'í 
faiths and a similarly radical orthopraxy of covenantal obedience. Indeed, 
heresy (Greek, hairesis) is presented throughout the Christian New Testament, 
not as the benign presence of alternative beliefs, but as the self-willed 
promotion of malignant division."
http://tech.structurization.com/

>>There's also the problem of a much deeper divide, namely the divide between 
>>those who to varying degrees and from varying perspectives still hold to 
>>Marxist analyses of socio-economic situations and those who believe that 
>>Marxism in whatever form is a historically discredited philosophy that in its 
>>programmatic materialism, atheism and belief in force/violence is essentially 
>>incompatible with the Baha'i Writings.<<

I definitely do not think that Marx has been discredited. If anything, the 
value of his historical-dialectical methodology is becoming more evident. 
However, when I referred to a Baha'i liberation theology, I did not mean Marx.

>>Indeed, I would venture to say that the main Baha'i requirements for economic 
>>justice -  such as profit-sharing, abolition (not by force) of the extremes 
>>of wealth and poverty - are compatible with a reformed capitalism, i.e. 
>>compatible with an economic system that actually works. IOW, a Baha'i 
>>liberation theology would repeat the split between revolutionaries and 
>>reformers.<<

The anticipated (local) Houses of Finance (storehouses) are about as 
socialistic as anything I have seen. Given that `Abdu'l-Baha referred both to 
these storehouses and, in _Some Answered Questions_, to the rights of 
capitalists, it seems to me that His perspective would, today, be something 
like democratic socialism. Many democratic socialists have no problem with 
private ownership on the local level, but they want to see the dissolution of 
the corporatocracy and the protection of the workers.

V

RE: Baha'i Liberation "Theology" ((long quote))

Susan,

At 10:14 AM 10/3/2005, you wrote:
>>True. However, child labor is rarely even an issue in post-industrial 
>>societies. It is in those countries still in the process of industrialization 
>>where it has become a problem.<<

True, but some of those societies are places like China and India. Receiving a 
baccalaureate is, in some ways, even more important in these two countries than 
in the U.S. or Western Europe; and child labor, by keeping people mired in the 
underclass, makes that unlikely.

Via moderna, Mark A. Foster . http://markfoster.net
... [a] word is ... a universal. - William of Ockham
Structurization Tech: http://tech.structurization.com 

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RE: Baha'i Liberation "Theology" ((long quote))

2005-10-03 Thread Ian Kluge

Dear Friends, 

In the exchanges already seen, we observe the main problem in establishing a
Baha'i liberation theology: disunity. There is simply no agreement on what
constitutes a problem - and more importantly, by what means to seek a
solution. Moreover, we also have the problems caused by those who are -
supposedly - on 'our side' but whose presence or 'support' weakens whatever
cause we work for. 

There's also the problem of a much deeper divide, namely the divide between
those who to varying degrees and from varying perspectives still hold to
Marxist analyses of socio-economic situations and those who believe that
Marxism in whatever form is a historically discredited philosophy that in
its programmatic materialism, atheism and belief in force/violence is
essentially incompatible with the Baha'i Writings.  

Indeed, I would venture to say that the main Baha'i requirements for
economic justice -  such as profit-sharing, abolition (not by force)of the
extremes of wealth and poverty - are compatible with a reformed capitalism,
i.e. compatible with an economic system that actually works. IOW, a Baha'i
liberation theology would repeat the split between revolutionaries and
reformers.   

Best wishes,

Ian Kluge 




-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rich Ater
Sent: October 2, 2005 9:24 PM
To: Baha'i Studies
Subject: Re: Baha'i Liberation "Theology" ((long quote))

>
>I certainly don't think we must eschew all activism. For instance, if
>Baha'is think it appropriate to boycott certain multi-nationals that
>routinely contract work out to those who utilize child labor, that's fine,
>IMO. 
>
Granted.

>We shouldn't oppose governments but there is no reason we can't oppose
>corporations.I'm personally not opposed to child labor for sentimental
>reasons, however. Children have always worked throughout most of history.
>  
>
This is different than the child labor I'm referring to. Kids working 
along side there parents is one thing. Kids sold to rug makers and dyers 
and chained to looms in pakistan are another. The sentimental reasons 
you may harbor are not reflected in the reality I'm discussing here.

> The problem with
>child labor in an industrial society is that it drags down the wages for
>adults below subsistence.
>  
>
The problem with child labor in an industrial society is that it usually 
coupled with brutality and coersion, such as the 14 year old girls used 
in Nike factories.

>Rich
>
>
> 
> 
>
>  
>



 
 
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RE: Baha'i Liberation "Theology" ((long quote))

"I think that there are other problems associated with child labor. For
instance, postindustrial societies, including those in the West, now require
that individuals receive at least a baccalaureate to be competitive in the
global economy. Child labor frequently makes it difficult, if not
impossible, for them to obtain the preparations necessary to be accepted
into a college or university or to have a successful academic experience."

True. However, child labor is rarely even an issue in post-industrial
societies. It is in those countries still in the process of
industrialization where it has become a problem.

warmest, Susan



 
 
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RE: Baha'i Liberation "Theology" ((long quote))

Susan,

At 10:02 PM 10/2/2005, you wrote:
>>I'm personally not opposed to child labor for sentimental reasons, however. 
>>Children have always worked throughout most of history. But formally they 
>>worked under the supervision of their parents or other family members instead 
>>of being sent out to sweat shop. The problem with child labor in an 
>>industrial society is that it drags down the wages for adults below 
>>subsistence.<< 

I think that there are other problems associated with child labor. For 
instance, postindustrial societies, including those in the West, now require 
that individuals receive at least a baccalaureate to be competitive in the 
global economy. Child labor frequently makes it difficult, if not impossible, 
for them to obtain the preparations necessary to be accepted into a college or 
university or to have a successful academic experience.

Via moderna, Mark A. Foster . http://markfoster.net
... [a] word is ... a universal. - William of Ockham
Structurization Tech: http://tech.structurization.com 

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Re: Baha'i Liberation "Theology" ((long quote))

Rich,

At 09:13 PM 10/2/2005, you wrote:
>>Baha'u'llah says we should admonish the rich. How do we do that if we eschew 
>>all activism?<<

I agree. It is certainly true that Baha'is, irrespective of their economic 
status, are encouraged to exhibit radiant acquiescence in the face of suffering 
and distress. However, I see that as a totally separate issue from the actions 
that Baha'is take for others - or that a poor person would take on behalf of 
members of her family, community, or society.

In a few of the pilgrims' notes about `Abdu'l-Baha, it appears fairly clear 
that, while He was willing to suffer, He did not tolerate injustice - even when 
He Himself was the victim. In particular, I have in mind one of several 
versions of the story in which He was overcharged for a taxicab ride. In at 
least one of them, He paid the correct (not the inflated) fair and refused to 
tip the driver.

Via moderna, Mark A. Foster . http://markfoster.net
... [a] word is ... a universal. - William of Ockham
Structurization Tech: http://tech.structurization.com 

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Re: Baha'i Liberation "Theology" ((long quote))

2005-10-02 Thread Rich Ater

I certainly don't think we must eschew all activism. For instance, if
Baha'is think it appropriate to boycott certain multi-nationals that
routinely contract work out to those who utilize child labor, that's fine,
IMO.

Granted.

We shouldn't oppose governments but there is no reason we can't oppose
corporations.I'm personally not opposed to child labor for sentimental
reasons, however. Children have always worked throughout most of history.

This is different than the child labor I'm referring to. Kids working
along side there parents is one thing. Kids sold to rug makers and dyers
and chained to looms in pakistan are another. The sentimental reasons
you may harbor are not reflected in the reality I'm discussing here.

The problem with
child labor in an industrial society is that it drags down the wages for
adults below subsistence.

The problem with child labor in an industrial society is that it usually
coupled with brutality and coersion, such as the 14 year old girls used
in Nike factories.

Rich

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RE: Baha'i Liberation "Theology" ((long quote))

2005-10-02 Thread Susan Maneck

"So, as a
Baha'i should I not be active in issues such as forced child labor,
first world incursions into the third world, or a variety of other
issues that the Faith speaks out about. Baha'u'llah says we should
admonish the rich. How do we do that if we eschew all activism?"

Dear Rich,

I certainly don't think we must eschew all activism. For instance, if
Baha'is think it appropriate to boycott certain multi-nationals that
routinely contract work out to those who utilize child labor, that's fine,
IMO. We shouldn't oppose governments but there is no reason we can't oppose
corporations.I'm personally not opposed to child labor for sentimental
reasons, however. Children have always worked throughout most of history.
But formally they worked under the supervision of their parents or other
family members instead of being sent out to sweat shop. The problem with
child labor in an industrial society is that it drags down the wages for
adults below subsistence.

warmest, Susan



 
 
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Re: Baha'i Liberation "Theology" ((long quote))

2005-10-02 Thread Rich Ater

Susan Maneck wrote:

One problem in interpreting Baha'i doctrine as "Liberation Theology" lies in
the fact that Baha'is are usually discouraged from involving themselves in
political affairs. Cole regards this a temporary measure adopted by
`Abdu'l-Baha, made in response to the turmoil of the Iranian Constitutional
Revolution which has been maintained by the Baha'i community in its early
stage of development to avoid internal divisions. Cole argues that avoidance
of party politics should not exclude social activism among Baha'is. "The
poor, like other Baha'is," according to Cole, "are called upon to denounce
tyranny and infractions against basic human rights, to work for
parliamentary democracy, to allow for the expression of the views of the
humblest Baha'i within the community, and to reform the world's economy so
as to reflect the divine attribute of justice" (93).

Susan,
I followed what you were saying, and I agree that we should eschew
partisan politics. The problem is that I think we take that too far and
eschew all political stances. I agree with Mark's statement as someone
with a Marxist bent that theory must be followed with praxis. So, as a
Baha'i should I not be active in issues such as forced child labor,
first world incursions into the third world, or a variety of other
issues that the Faith speaks out about. Baha'u'llah says we should
admonish the rich. How do we do that if we eschew all activism? The
House condemned free market capitalism in the Century of Light, should I
remain silent about it's practices? I bring this up for discussion
because they're important issues.

Rich

RE: Baha'i Liberation "Theology" ((long quote))

2005-10-02 Thread Susan Maneck

"A Baha'i liberation theology might use the language of other liberation
theologies, but it would, IMO, need to be grounded in the Baha'i primary
sources."

Yes, the problem with Juan's work is it was too selective in its use of
sources. Sound theology needs to consider and take into account all of the
relevant material.

warmest, Susan



 
 
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RE: Baha'i Liberation "Theology" ((long quote))

Susan,

At 05:21 PM 10/2/2005, you wrote:
>>Several years ago Juan Cole wrote an article on the Baha'i Faith and 
>>liberation theology. Here is the review I wrote to that artice:<<

There are, of course, many liberation "theologies." Although liberation 
theology began among Latin American Jesuits, I also have books on Protestant 
liberation theologies, Muslim liberation theologies, Jewish liberation 
theologies, African American liberation theologies, and feminist liberation 
thealogies (with an "a").

A Baha'i liberation theology might use the language of other liberation 
theologies, but it would, IMO, need to be grounded in the Baha'i primary 
sources.

Via moderna, Mark A. Foster . http://markfoster.net
... [a] word is ... a universal. - William of Ockham
Structurization Tech: http://tech.structurization.com 

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RE: Baha'i Liberation "Theology" ((long quote))

2005-10-02 Thread Susan Maneck

Several years ago Juan Cole wrote an article on the Baha'i Faith and
liberation theology. Here is the review I wrote to that artice:

In "Baha'u'llah and Liberation Theology" Professor Juan Cole discusses the
implications of Baha'u'llah's revelation in terms of the Liberation Theology
developed within Latin American. Liberation Theology draws upon the Exodus
story and the prophetic tradition as a whole to express God's special
commitment to and identification with the plight of the the poor as a means
for legitimizing their struggle for justice involving, in most cases, some
form of political agitation, whether violent or non-violent. It is therefore
a theology of revolution. He argues that while the Baha'i Faith eschews both
violence and party politics as a means to obtain its goals of social
transformation, a theology of liberation, is integral to Baha'u'llah's
revelation. Cole seeks to establish this by drawing upon such statements
from the Writings such as "the Ancient Beauty hath consented to be bound
with chains that mankind may be released from its bondage" (80). Cole points
to the contrasts Baha'u'llah makes between the spiritual dangers and
temptations associated with wealth versus the virtues of poverty. From this
the conclusion is drawn that the poor are spiritually superior to the rich
and are their equals in civil society, for Baha'u'llah urges all to "eat
with the same mouth and dwell in the same land" (84).

Besides criticizing excessive attachment to worldly riches, Baha'u'llah
condemns political tyranny as well. While Baha'u'llah urges the poor to
endure their sufferings patiently, He stresses their dignity and independent
agency by encouraging them to strive to obtain an adequate means of
livelihood. According to Cole, Baha'u'llah also calls upon them to work
"ceaselessly toward the creation of a new civilization wherein the extreme
of wealth and poverty would be eliminated at last" (92).

One problem in interpreting Baha'i doctrine as "Liberation Theology" lies in
the fact that Baha'is are usually discouraged from involving themselves in
political affairs. Cole regards this a temporary measure adopted by
`Abdu'l-Baha, made in response to the turmoil of the Iranian Constitutional
Revolution which has been maintained by the Baha'i community in its early
stage of development to avoid internal divisions. Cole argues that avoidance
of party politics should not exclude social activism among Baha'is. "The
poor, like other Baha'is," according to Cole, "are called upon to denounce
tyranny and infractions against basic human rights, to work for
parliamentary democracy, to allow for the expression of the views of the
humblest Baha'i within the community, and to reform the world's economy so
as to reflect the divine attribute of justice" (93).

In connection with this Cole points out that Baha'u'llah calls for state
intervention the poor by implementing a graduated income tax, prohibiting
slavery, and cutting back on military budgets. Indeed, what Baha'u'llah
expects is basic structural changes grounded in faith and universal love
which will bring about the total transformation of society, enriching and
empowering the poor.

Dr. Cole's essay provides a very provocative look at the implications of
Baha'i theology in terms of current political trends. There were several
instances, however, where his logic seemed flawed, where historical evidence
does not support his basic thesis, and where his selection of scripture was
misleadingly unbalanced. He notes, for instance, that the Baha'i Faith
membership has largely been drawn from the poor and dispossessed in Third
World countries, attracted by the Baha'i system of governance with its
emphasis on elected bodies (rather than a professional clergy) which insures
that the poor have a real and effective voice within Baha'i communities.
This ignores the reluctance on the part of most of impoverished people who
have embraced the Baha'i Faith to participate fully in such administrative
institutions. It appears highly unlikely that the existence of such bodies
were the means of attracting the poor and dispossessed.

Equally confusing is Cole's suggestion that a "truly Baha'i society" "would
guarantee basic human rights as outlined in United Nations declarations and
covenants." It is difficult to reconcile this statement with Dr. Cole's
earlier insistence that any Baha'i theology must be grounded in "scripture
and theophanology" (81). As laudatory as such United Nations documents might
be, they hardly constitute Divine Revelation!

Dr. Cole insists that Baha'u'llah's praise for the British style of
"parliamentary democracy" [sic] after 1868 indicated His belief that the
poor should have a voice in their own governance. While Baha'u'llah would
not likely have objected to such sentiments, this can hardly be concluded
from His praise of the constitutional monarchy in England, which by 1868 had
only enfranchised the moneyed classes. The British Parliament, far which

RE: Baha'i Liberation "Theology"

2005-10-02 Thread Khazeh Fananapazir

Thank you thank you dearest Mark for your thread

Your poor lowly brother khazeh


 Although Baha'u'llah was solitary, secluded and unknown in His retirement,
the report spread throughout Kurdistan that this was a most remarkable and
learned Personage, gifted with a wonderful power of attraction.  In a short
time Kurdistan was magnetized with His love.  During this period Baha'u'llah
lived in poverty. His garments were those of the poor and needy.  His food
was that of the indigent and lowly.  An atmosphere of majesty haloed Him as
the sun at midday.
(`Abdu'l-Baha:  Promulgation of Universal Peace*, Page: 26)


 Tonight I am very happy, for I have come here to meet my friends.  I
consider you my relatives, my companions; and I am your comrade. 
 You must be thankful to God that you are poor, for Jesus Christ has
said, "Blessed are the poor."  He never said, "Blessed are the rich."  He
said, too, that the Kingdom is for the poor and that it is easier for a
camel to enter a needle's eye than for a rich man to enter God's Kingdom.
Therefore, you must be thankful to God that although in this world you are
indigent, yet the treasures of God are within your reach; and although in
the material realm you are poor, yet in the Kingdom of God you are precious.
Jesus Himself was poor.  He did not belong to the rich.  He passed His time
in the desert, travelling among the poor, and lived upon the herbs of the
field.  He had no place to lay His head, no home.  He was exposed in the
open to heat, cold and frost - to inclement weather of all kinds - yet He
chose this rather than riches.  If riches were considered a glory, the
Prophet Moses would have chosen them; Jesus would have been a rich man.
When Jesus Christ appeared, it was the poor who first accepted Him, not the
rich.  Therefore, you are the disciples of Jesus Christ; you are His
comrades, for He outwardly was poor, not rich.  Even this earth's happiness
does not depend upon wealth.  You will find many of the wealthy exposed to
dangers and troubled by difficulties, and in their last moments upon the bed
of death there remains the regret that they must be separated from that to
which their hearts are so attached.  They come into this world naked, and
they must go from it naked.  All they possess they must leave behind and
pass away solitary, alone. Often at the time of death their souls are filled
with remorse; and worst of all, their hope in the mercy of God is less than
ours.  Praise be to God!  Our hope is in the mercy of God, and there is no
doubt that the divine compassion is bestowed upon the poor.  Jesus Christ
said so; Baha'u'llah said so.  While Baha'u'llah was in Baghdad, still in
possession of great wealth, He left all He had and went alone from the city,
living two years among the poor.  They were His comrades.  He ate with them,
slept with them and gloried in being one of them.  He chose for one of His
names the title of The Poor One and often in His Writings refers to Himself
as Darvish, which in Persian means poor; and of this title He was very
proud.  He admonished all that we must be the servants of the poor, helpers
of the poor, remember the sorrows of the poor, associate with them; for
thereby we may inherit the Kingdom of heaven.  God has not said that there
are mansions prepared for us if we pass our time associating with the rich,
but He has said there are many mansions prepared for the servants of the
poor, for the poor are very dear to God.  The mercies and bounties of God
are with them.  The rich are mostly negligent, inattentive, steeped in
worldliness, depending upon their means, whereas the poor are dependent upon
God, and their reliance is upon Him, not upon themselves.  Therefore, the
poor are nearer the threshold of God and His throne. 
 Jesus was a poor man.  One night when He was out in the fields, the
rain began to fall.  He had no place to go for shelter so He lifted His eyes
toward heaven, saying, "O Father!  For the birds of the air Thou hast
created nests, for the sheep a fold, for the animals dens, for the fish
places of refuge, but for Me Thou hast provided no shelter.  There is no
place where I may lay My head.  My bed consists of the cold ground; My lamps
at night are the stars, and My food is the grass of the field.  Yet who upon
earth is richer than I? For the greatest blessing Thou hast not given to the
rich and mighty but unto Me, for Thou hast given Me the poor.  To me Thou
hast granted this blessing.  They are Mine.  Therefore am I the richest man
on earth." 
 So, my comrades, you are following in the footsteps of Jesus Christ.
Your lives are similar to His life; your attitude is like unto His; you
resemble Him more than the rich do.  Therefore, we will thank God that we
have been so blessed with real riches.  And in conclusion, I ask you to
accept Abdu'l-Baha as your servant. 
(`Abdu'l-Baha:  Promulgation of Universal Peace*, Pages: 32-34)




 
 
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Re: Baha'i Liberation "Theology" ((long quote))