Re: What Convinced Me (was: Questions about Omniscience and related matters)
Yes, hello , Elaine, I am very familiar with your account of your conversion, from your web site. It is the most moving Baha'i conversion account I have ever read. By all means, I recommend that anyone who has not read your account, do so at your web site http://elainna.org/Spirit/Journey.html It rings of authenticity and is probably the most miraculous account of an experience that I have ever been able to believe in, in Baha'i literature. In addition, I have greatly enjoyed other written works on your web site. Peace and love, Ron Stephens On Dec 30, 2004, at 9:04 PM, Elaine Crowell wrote: Dear Ron, I was 35 when I embraced the Faith. I was a seeker after transcendence since I was 12 or maybe 15. I tell the story of my conversion on my web-site.http://elainna.org/Spirit/Journey.html Unlike most of the Baha'is I know, I came to the faith through a series of visionary experiences. My first Baha'i book was The Seven Valleys and The Four Valleys, my second, Proclamation to the Nations by Shoghi Effendi, and my third was Gleanings. Each of these books made a deep impression on me However it was the second which set up an internal conflict that finally brought me to the point of declaring. I was nearly torn apart by a combination of these books and my visions. Perhaps one of the things which helped me was my awareness of how ignorant I really was and a set of guide lines I created to guide my search for a true religion. The following is taken from my narrative. WHAT ARE THE CHARACTERISTICS OF A TRUE RELIGION? By true, I meant something, which was understandable and would facilitate spiritual development on a personal and social level. I came up with the following: A true religion would be universal. It would offer something for everyone irrespective of his or her age, education, and cultural or social background. It would not be for the elite, neither would it succumb to populist views or special interest groups. A True religion would focus on spiritual education rather than on sin and the need for redemption. It would not set itself up as the arbiter between the value and worth of certain souls and the wickedness of others. A true religion would be as concerned with the welfare of the whole human race as it was with individuals. It would be part of the world, not some isolated, insulated, naval gazing cult. Finally, and possibly most important, A True religion would not necessarily agree with my preferences and expectations. It would not conform to my limited and biased point of view. I added this last stipulation because I knew I had outgrown nearly every belief I had previously held. Therefore, if I found something that was in complete accord with my beliefs and feelings, I would eventually cease to grow. You asked about doubts. Yes I have them but my chief doubts are about myself, my understanding and the Baha'i Community. Not being an intellectual or an academic, I prefer to focus on action rather than theory. For example the Tragedy in South-East Asia has claimed at least 100,000 souls and the people there desperately need help. I am praying along with another group of women on line. I wonder why no one has mentioned this tragedy on this list and if there are Baha'i Communities there? I would like it if the Faith was perfectly logical rational and if my fellow Baha'is were more supportive and could instantly translate the Writings into action. However, it is very difficult for me to be critical of others when I know how far short of the standard I fall. Warm Wishes, Elainna The Doors are open at Elainna's New Place http://elainna.org The Wild Side http://elainnas-wild-side.net __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: What Convinced Me (was: Questions about Omniscience and related matters)
In a message dated 12/31/2004 2:12:25 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I wonder why no one has mentioned this tragedy on this list and if there are Baha'i Communities there? I'm sure there are. What I'm wondering is if there are any SEDs in those areas which might be helping to provide relief and if so, where could we send $$? __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: What Convinced Me (was: Questions about Omniscience and related matters)
In a message dated 12/31/2004 2:12:25 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I wonder why no one has mentioned this tragedy on this list and if there are Baha'i Communities there? I went to Feast last night, and we read letters from the NSAs of Thailand and Malaysia; in both those countries, the Friends were spared any loss of life, and suffered only minimal property damage. I dont know about other areas. There are Bah organizations that are assisting with the relief efforts. I will try to have some addresses this afternoon. Dave Lambert www.vintagerr.com __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: What Convinced Me (was: Questions about Omniscience and related matters)
Could anyone else tell me, what stands out in your mind about why you converted. What was the thing that grabbed you adn convinced you. I was raised in a mainstream Protestant church, and never found it satisfying. I spent many years exploring various religions. I was a Quaker for many years, and I spent about ten years in the Foundation Faith of God, a church which is a fringe group and in many of the cult books, but which I found to contain some of the truest Christians I have ever met. I first heard of the Baháí Faith in 1971, and had Baháí friends at various times throughout my life, but although I knew and admired the Faith I did not take it seriously until 2001. When I began studying it seriously and reading the writings, I just knew. Having studied the Bible for years, I felt it was obvious that Baháulláh and Jesus spoke with the same voice. I felt I had always been a Baháí, but simply hadnt realized it. Dave Lambert www.vintagerr.com __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: What Convinced Me (was: Questions about Omniscience and related matters)
Hi, Dave, At 08:42 AM 12/30/2004, you wrote: I was a Quaker for many years, and I spent about ten years in the Foundation Faith of God, a church which is a fringe group and in many of the cult books, but which I found to contain some of the truest Christians I have ever met. When you were in it, did they still have similar quasi-Gnostic teachings (re: Satan, etc.) to when they were the Process Church of the Final Judgement? With regards, Mark A. Foster * 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
re: What Convinced Me (was: Questions about Omniscience and related matters)
Could anyone else tell me, what stands out in your mind about why you converted. What was the thing that grabbed you adn convinced you. The other thing I keep wondering about is certainty. I freely admit, I have little certainly about anything. I really am amazed at the degree of certainty others have about religious matters. (This amazement of mine applies equally to folks of all religious backgrounds, not just Baha'is). How can you be certain. Do you ever have doubts. The first requirement for the attainment of certitude, is possessing a thirst for certitude. If one does not believe certitude is attainable, there won't be a thirst for it. There is a Sufi poem that says if you want to find water, Seek thirst, and water from the very ground will burst. So being thirsty is a spiritual attainment. The thirst is a vehicle that carries you over the difficulties and challenges, and many inner changes to go through. Mirza Abu'l-Fazl said that he read the Iqan 18 times with the eye of intellect and it was a string of meaningless words; then he read it a 19th time with spiritual eyes and it opened the divine mysteries for him. The Iqan has whatever we are thirsting for, and as we progress spiritually, it yields more to our search. So I urge your careful prayerful study of that Book. Its guidance will lead you to what you are seeking. Even the first two pages give the essentials: To be detached from all that is earthly including idle talk, and to cease to regard the words and deeds of mortal men as a standard for the true understanding and recognition of God. So it is detachment not only from worldly goods, but from opinions. It is my understanding that there is another essential element, identified by the Guardian as the foundation of human spirituality: The thing the German believers must do is to deepen themselves in the Covenants of Baha'u'llah and `Abdu'l-Baha. Mere intellectual understanding of the teachings is not enough. Deep spirituality is essential, and the foundation of true spirituality is steadfastness in the Covenant. (Shoghi Effendi's secretary on his behalf, letter dated 31 March 1949, The Light of Divine Guidance, Volume 2, p. 83) I would also like to draw attention to one element in particular in the guidance for the true seeker of certitude, given in the Iqan, and that is seeking right company: With all his heart he [the true seeker] should avoid fellowship with evil-doers. He should treasure the companionship of them that have renounced the world, and regard avoidance of boastful and worldly people a precious benefit. (The Book of Certitude, p. 194). Associating with people whose spiritual condition is harmful, will take you back two steps for every step you take forward. The House of Justice mentions this in one of its letters: There is one other condition which should be mentioned. There are certain former Bah's whose actions do not necessarily constitute Covenant-breaking, but are seriously destructive. Where such people have shown that they are impervious to explanations or exhortations from the Bah' institutions, continued association with them can be burdensome and can exert a spiritually corrosive effect on the faith of believers. In such cases the Head of the Faith may simply advise the Bah's to leave them to their own devices. (4 April 2001 message from the House of Justice to all National Spiritual Assemblies, posted to the Net at http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist/m25764.html ) So in answer to your question I would suggest: 1. In the attainment of certitude, there is no better source than reflective study of the Iqan and putting its counsels into practice 2. Firmness in the Covenants of Baha'u'llah and the Master is the foundation of true spirituality 3. Avoidance of people who have a harmful effect on one's faith and certitude. Brent __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: What Convinced Me (was: Questions about Omniscience and related matters)
In a message dated 12/30/2004 1:46:10 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: "There is one other condition which should be mentioned. There arecertain former Bah whose actions do not necessarily constituteCovenant-breaking, but are seriously destructive. Where such people have shown that they are impervious to explanations or exhortations from the Bahinstitutions, continued association with them can be burdensome and can exert a spiritually corrosive effect on the faith of believers. In such cases the Head of the Faith may simply advise the Bah to leave them to their own devices." (4 April 2001 message from the House of Justice to all National Spiritual Assemblies, posted to the Net at http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist/m25764.html ) Dear Brent, An experience I have had, and I think this may be true for Ron as well is that sometimes the associating with Baha'is in perfectly good standing can be more corrosive to ones faith than associating with the folks mentioned above. For instance, while I find the Baha'i Discuss list more personally corrosive than I find TRB, though I wouldn't recommend anyone hang around the latter. What do we do in those cases, stop hanging around Baha'is? warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: What Convinced Me (was: Questions about Omniscience and related matters)
Mark wrote: When you were in it, did they still have similar quasi-Gnostic teachings (re: Satan, etc.) to when they were the Process Church of the Final Judgement? As I recall, their teachings were pretty traditional. We didn't talk about Satan much. The focus was on service. Dave Lambert www.vintagerr.com __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
