[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: new sound file for 11c
Thanks Theo and Anthony, Yes, these gimped strings are new to me, the Pistoys too. So it's not just a case of getting used to 11 courses and new repertoire, but new strings also. I will doubtless experiment a bit over time, but gut basses are expensive! I'd love to hear your Andy Rutherford 11c, Theo, and Anthony's Gottlieb when it arrives. Mary Burwell said the French fashion was for a single 11th course - I might try that with a thicker fundamental. I'm probably finished recording for the moment, but might take you up on the idea of recording the same piece in a couple of months, just to see what differences there are. Rob www.rmguitar.info -Original Message- From: T. Diehl-Peshkur [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 14 December 2007 10:41 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: new sound file for 11c Hi Rob, Thanks for the link, very nice! From my own experience, I picked up my Andy Rutherford 11 course about a 2 months ago, all gut, with gimped basses from Larson. The basses developed quite dramatically in the first few month- especially after working on them vigorously for some time. I think it is a combination of the string developing as well as the soundboard. My suspicion is that in about a month or two, those basses of yours are going to be quite different. It would be fun to record the same piece again at that time to see what happens! Cheers, Theo From: Rob [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 10:19:14 - To: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] new sound file for 11c I've made an mp3 of the Chaconne in Am by de Visee with my right hand little finger resting on the bridge. This technique is depicted in a number of paintings and seems to work well with all-gut strings. I once tried it on a lute strung in nylon and it sounded quite poor. I think it works well with gut, so might try to adopt it as my 11c technique. On the other hand (not literally) the famous painting/engraving of Mouton has his hand a little further from the bridge with little finger on the sound board, but still nowhere near the rose. The gimped strings seem to have settled. Here it is: http://www.rmguitar.info/Maler.htm - scroll to the bottom of the page. Man, I love this lute! Please excuse all this sudden enthusiasm! Rob www.rmguitar.info -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: new sound file for 11c
Rob, and any one on the Baroque list, All gut basses take a very log time to settle-in completely, and go on improving for a surprisingly long time. However, when I said that to David v. O., he told me it could be my playing adapting to the strings, rather than the string developping. I am sure that is partly so, and Ed described the change of technique needed for gut basses rather well, in a recent message, see here at http://tinyurl.com/2dft7b However, I haven't had metal wounds for over 30 years; although, admittedly, I did have a 20 years or so break in my playing (so I am new-old stock, as they describe some vintage valves that have hardly been played in). Again, when I changed recently from Pistoy to Venice on the 5th course, the Venice took about 6 months to develop. I can't believe that my technique has had to adapt that much when going from a gut-tress to a gut-twine. I think it really IS the string settling in. Having said that it does take a long time for someone used to wirewounds, simply to get use to the different sound and feel of gut basses, that you have to make sing rather than damp. When you have played for a long time with a particular string type, the tea or coffee syndrome inevtiably develops. By that I mean, people do become used to one type of tea or coffee, and everything else tastes wrong to them, even when the tea or coffee, in question might be tea-bags and robusta. Regards Anthony Le 14 dec. 07 =E0 11:49, Rob a ecrit : Thanks Theo and Anthony, Yes, these gimped strings are new to me, the Pistoys too. So it's not just a case of getting used to 11 courses and new repertoire, but new strings also. I will doubtless experiment a bit over time, but gut basses are expensive! I'd love to hear your Andy Rutherford 11c, Theo, and Anthony's Gottlieb when it arrives. Mary Burwell said the French fashion was for a single 11th course - I might try that with a thicker fundamental. I'm probably finished recording for the moment, but might take you up on the idea of recording the same piece in a couple of months, just to see what differences there are. Rob www.rmguitar.info -Original Message- From: T. Diehl-Peshkur [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 14 December 2007 10:41 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: new sound file for 11c Hi Rob, Thanks for the link, very nice! From my own experience, I picked up my Andy Rutherford 11 course about a 2 months ago, all gut, with gimped basses from Larson. The basses developed quite dramatically in the first few month- especially after working on them vigorously for some time. I think it is a combination of the string developing as well as the soundboard. My suspicion is that in about a month or two, those basses of yours are going to be quite different. It would be fun to record the same piece again at that time to see what happens! Cheers, Theo From: Rob [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 10:19:14 - To: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] new sound file for 11c I've made an mp3 of the Chaconne in Am by de Visee with my right hand little finger resting on the bridge. This technique is depicted in a number of paintings and seems to work well with all-gut strings. I once tried it on a lute strung in nylon and it sounded quite poor. I think it works well with gut, so might try to adopt it as my 11c technique. On the other hand (not literally) the famous painting/engraving of Mouton has his hand a little further from the bridge with little finger on the sound board, but still nowhere near the rose. The gimped strings seem to have settled. Here it is: http://www.rmguitar.info/Maler.htm - scroll to the bottom of the page. Man, I love this lute! Please excuse all this sudden enthusiasm! Rob www.rmguitar.info -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- --
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: new sound file for 11c
Plastic Ukele string free, oups sorry, no really, I don't mean it. Anthony Le 14 déc. 07 à 15:53, Rob a écrit : it is very good to see that you are finally making your 11c Malers...also that they are plastic free. Plastic?! Rob To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Rép : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: new sound file for 11c
Rob Yes, I was being a little facetious about synthetics, but I do think there can be a plasticky sound to some strings. As i said once before, the effect is accumulative both for gut and for synthetics, because of sympathetic resonances. Here in France, I can assure you that lutes strung in gut by the lute maker are a rarity, in England it is clearly quite different. As I remarked in a previous messaeg, the material used as insulation in capacitors, it is also claimed, can be heard in play back systems: different sorts of plastics, or paper. The more of the same, the more the particular characteristic is audible. The figured ash back to your lute is particularly beautiful, as I said previously We all congratulated, you, the happy owner, but we should also have congratulated Martin. That was what I was trying to do, as I happen to know this is part of a long project Anthony Le 14 déc. 07 à 16:46, Rob a écrit : By plastic you meant nylon strings, I suppose. I thought for a moment you were referring to the body! Rob www.rmguitar.info -Original Message- From: Anthony Hind [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 14 December 2007 15:18 To: Baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: new sound file for 11c Rob How could it have meant anything else? Small point of grammar? I suppose I should have said plastics as opposed to plastic. A friend who has recently begun to move from synthetics to gut, told me he realized that the presence of even a small ammount of gut frees up the sound. Just as you suggested for the small number of ribs . This gives me an idea that lute makers will probably not like. How about making a lute in an acoustically predictable material (ie not wood), and then experimenting with different numbers of ribs to see what the effect really is? The problem, is that when you compare, even two almost identical lutes, the wood, the glue, the varnish are all variables that confuse the results. I think I remember a lute maker on the list, once said he had experimented with papier maché and got quite good results, but there again, papier maché is not quite predictable enough. Oups, am I being Owlish, again … Best Regards Anthony Le 14 déc. 07 à 15:58, Anthony Hind a écrit : Plastic Ukele string free, oups sorry, no really, I don't mean it. Anthony Le 14 déc. 07 à 15:53, Rob a écrit : it is very good to see that you are finally making your 11c Malers...also that they are plastic free. Plastic?! Rob To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: new sound file for 11c
Dear Luca, The relevant quotes from Burwell are in my essay on Rob's site: www.rmguitar.info/Maler.htm A facsimile of the book was printed by Boethius Press but is probably now out of print - can anyone advise? The author of the Burwell lute tutor is thought to have been John Rogers, who is thought to have been a pupil of Ennemond Gaultier. Best wishes, Martin Luca Manassero wrote: Dear Martin, all this sounds very, very interesting. Are you aware of a site where I could get the Mary Burwell on-line? Many thanks, Luca Martin Shepherd on 14-12-2007 13:12 wrote: Dear Chris, The author of the Burwell tutor is quite clear. He says the French masters first adopted a twelve course lute, then returned to an 11c, keeping only the small eleventh because the sound of the low octave on the 11th is too big and smothers the sound of the other strings. He also explains how you can then play a C on the open 11th instead of having to finger it at the third fret of the sixth course. You're right about the single 11th being the high octave, not the lower - Burwell says it should be between the 5th and 6th in size. Later authors clearly used both strings, Mouton for instance indicates where they are to be played separately. Best wishes, Martin P.S. I do think the single 2nd course arises from conversion of a 10c lute - it means you only need one more peg for the 11c version, which you can get by adding a treble rider. So no need to make a new pegbox! [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think the idea of the single 11th course was possibly transitional - to make a 10c into an 11c set up with single second course, leaving another single for the 11th. My understanding was that this 11th course was an 8ve and not a bordon. Cheers Chris Rob [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Thanks Theo and Anthony, Yes, these gimped strings are new to me, the Pistoys too. So it's not just a case of getting used to 11 courses and new repertoire, but new strings also. I will doubtless experiment a bit over time, but gut basses are expensive! I'd love to hear your Andy Rutherford 11c, Theo, and Anthony's Gottlieb when it arrives. Mary Burwell said the French fashion was for a single 11th course - I might try that with a thicker fundamental. I'm probably finished recording for the moment, but might take you up on the idea of recording the same piece in a couple of months, just to see what differences there are. Rob www.rmguitar.info -Original Message- From: T. Diehl-Peshkur [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 14 December 2007 10:41 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: new sound file for 11c Hi Rob, Thanks for the link, very nice! From my own experience, I picked up my Andy Rutherford 11 course about a 2 months ago, all gut, with gimped basses from Larson. The basses developed quite dramatically in the first few month- especially after working on them vigorously for some time. I think it is a combination of the string developing as well as the soundboard. My suspicion is that in about a month or two, those basses of yours are going to be quite different. It would be fun to record the same piece again at that time to see what happens! Cheers, Theo From: Rob [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 10:19:14 - To: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] new sound file for 11c I've made an mp3 of the Chaconne in Am by de Visee with my right hand little finger resting on the bridge. This technique is depicted in a number of paintings and seems to work well with all-gut strings. I once tried it on a lute strung in nylon and it sounded quite poor. I think it works well with gut, so might try to adopt it as my 11c technique. On the other hand (not literally) the famous painting/engraving of Mouton has his hand a little further from the bridge with little finger on the sound board, but still nowhere near the rose. The gimped strings seem to have settled. Here it is: http://www.rmguitar.info/Maler.htm - scroll to the bottom of the page. Man, I love this lute! Please excuse all this sudden enthusiasm! Rob www.rmguitar.info -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: new sound file for 11c
Well, this may be heresy and I'll get burned at the stake again, but ... These guys are making violins, violas, cellos and now basses with carbon fiber, I wonder how that would work as a lute back or back and sides for a classical guitar? http://www.luisandclark.com/ It might eliminate the issue of how many ribs effect the sound, effectively having only a 1 piece shell. -David - Original Message - From: Anthony Hind [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Friday, December 14, 2007 10:19 am Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: new sound file for 11c To: Baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Rob How could it have meant anything else? Small point of grammar? I suppose I should have said plastics as opposed to plastic. A friend who has recently begun to move from synthetics to gut, told me he realized that the presence of even a small ammount of gut frees up the sound. Just as you suggested for the small number of ribs . This gives me an idea that lute makers will probably not like. How about making a lute in an acoustically predictable material (ie not wood), and then experimenting with different numbers of ribs to see what the effect really is? The problem, is that when you compare, even two almost identical lutes, the wood, the glue, the varnish are all variables that confuse the results. I think I remember a lute maker on the list, once said he had experimented with papier maché and got quite good results, but there again, papier maché is not quite predictable enough. Oups, am I being Owlish, again … Best Regards Anthony Le 14 déc. 07 à 15:58, Anthony Hind a écrit : Plastic Ukele string free, oups sorry, no really, I don't mean it. Anthony Le 14 déc. 07 à 15:53, Rob a écrit : it is very good to see that you are finally making your 11c Malers...also that they are plastic free. Plastic?! Rob To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: new sound file for 11c
I once was given a Rainsong guitar to try, they make carbon-fibre steel-string guitars. It was an astonishingly good guitar, and I used it the day I got it for a live solo radio broadcast. I didn't buy it because I already had a good acoustic, but I was impressed. The thing is, it had a great sound, but a different sound, something unique. And, of course, carbon is also a natural resource, so it is no more Green than using wood. It might be interesting to hear a lute made of CF, but I'm sure, like the guitar, it would sound subtly different, and therefore not a lute. But, then again, we don't really know what lutes sounded like in the 16th/17th centuries...maybe our modern lutes are subtly different? One great advantage of CF instruments is that they are not affected by humidity and temperature change. I'm sure many a touring lute player would be pleased about that. Rob www.rmguitar.info -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 14 December 2007 16:05 To: Baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: new sound file for 11c Well, this may be heresy and I'll get burned at the stake again, but ... These guys are making violins, violas, cellos and now basses with carbon fiber, I wonder how that would work as a lute back or back and sides for a classical guitar? http://www.luisandclark.com/ It might eliminate the issue of how many ribs effect the sound, effectively having only a 1 piece shell. -David - Original Message - From: Anthony Hind [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Friday, December 14, 2007 10:19 am Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: new sound file for 11c To: Baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Rob How could it have meant anything else? Small point of grammar? I suppose I should have said plastics as opposed to plastic. A friend who has recently begun to move from synthetics to gut, told me he realized that the presence of even a small ammount of gut frees up the sound. Just as you suggested for the small number of ribs . This gives me an idea that lute makers will probably not like. How about making a lute in an acoustically predictable material (ie not wood), and then experimenting with different numbers of ribs to see what the effect really is? The problem, is that when you compare, even two almost identical lutes, the wood, the glue, the varnish are all variables that confuse the results. I think I remember a lute maker on the list, once said he had experimented with papier maché and got quite good results, but there again, papier maché is not quite predictable enough. Oups, am I being Owlish, again Best Regards Anthony Le 14 déc. 07 à 15:58, Anthony Hind a écrit : Plastic Ukele string free, oups sorry, no really, I don't mean it. Anthony Le 14 déc. 07 à 15:53, Rob a écrit : it is very good to see that you are finally making your 11c Malers...also that they are plastic free. Plastic?! Rob To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
