[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge?
Le 16 déc. 07 à 21:55, Robert Barto a écrit : Anthony, Thank you very much for these pictures. What's actually interesting about them is how two are close to the bridge and two are not. Only the first is really close to the bridge. (1 and 3 are relatively close, 2 and 4 really not.) But no sign of on the bridge or behind as one sees on many portraits and instruments. So what does this tell us? Robert To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Robert You must really thank Mimmo Peruffo, for taking the photos. He fortunately sent me the one of the Frei with the lace around it because I had mentioned the lace around the Charles Mouton lute, in another thread. As I found this extremely interesting, both for the hand position, but also because I didn't know of that Frei lute, of course I communicated with him about it, and he told me that he was going to place three more of these photos on his site. As the questioned raised here was rh position, and I wasn't sure everyone would see Mimmo's page (he is constantly updating it with new research), I thought I should send them to the list, as they clearly are highly significant. I would not consider myself expert enough to answer your questions, which I realize you are no doubt asking to yourself, rather than expecting an immediate reply. However, these marks would seem to imply, as you are suggesting, some variation in playing position (although nevertheless towards the bridge area, if not on it). Now, if we were looking at marks made by modern players, we could suppose that this might be due to variation in string types, or tensions. However, was there sufficient variation in string type (or string tension or tuning) at the time to account for such a variation? Did all players use loaded bass strings, or perhaps some use ropes, of some type? I have heard players who use relatively low tension stringing say that they play much closer to the bridge. Study of the bridge holes, as no doubt MP is doing (or has done), might possibly answer that sort of question. Perhaps, if these lutes were always played by the same person (can we be sure of that?), we could suppose that individual hand size or stretch might explain this. Does such variation occur for modern players who adopt the near the bridge position? One might also suppose that players of the period were searching for the best position for their touch, strings, and lute. They would not be just trying to adopt an "ideal" authentic or historically correct earlier position, which possibly can lead to more standardization than ever existed previously. Presumably, unless there was a strict universal position imposed by a method (such as perhaps, at one time a "Segovia rh finger position" on the guitar) some variation, both regional, and individual could develop. Do you think the "on the bridge position" could be another variation that just does not happen to occur in these four lutes, or could it be that the lutist posing found it instinctively more comfortable to put his finger on the bridge (perhaps to avoid marking the soundboard, if the pose was very long)? These are just a few thoughts that spring to mind, but perhaps MP has read your message, if so he can certainly put forward more informed explanations than I can. Anthony
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge?
Le 16 déc. 07 à 21:24, Rob a écrit : Please be careful, Anthony. The photo of me grinning like an idiot does not show me playing a la Mouton. I have now adopted, more or less, Mouton's technique which is closer to the bridge than I am using in that photo. I say more or less, because, of course, the position is not fixed, is quite fluid and allied to the subtle dynamic and tonal nuances of the music. When that photo was taken I had only seen the lute for a few minutes and hadn't really played anything. I was grinning because Martin had just accepted a dud cheque, the value of which he will discover tomorrow! Rob, we can all see that (well not the dud cheque), We are aware that you are posing for the camera, holding the new arrival, vaguely in a somewhat more relaxed Mouton posture; but I suppose that Charles was also posing for the painter. Although, you might have played with your lute for 40 mins and Charles played his for 40 years, that was not really the point; both paintings and photos of posing musicians would not be the ideal proof of a playing position, unless they were actually playing, which is not the case for either of you. Your finger is a little forward, in relation to Charles', but I only really added your photo, because I am hoping every one will agree with me that Mouton's lute is indeed a Maler, or even a Desmoulins baroqued Maler. No I know that can't be proved either way. I am not really taking all that much more seriously than we can see you are. However, the finger marks on the unrestored lutes are highly significant evidence, showing that if you do indeed want to play with the little finger nearer the bridge, then you are following the pattern of at least four other "historic" lute players, particularly, as you are using gut strings, as obviouly they had no choice but to do (although theirs might have been loaded). Marks on the lute belly, are much more significant than paintings, or indeed photos, unless the player is performing during the photo. I would make some duff pun about Tcheque (as they call it in France) Malers and dudd cheques, but fortunately for all, none come to mind, at this time in the evening. We will all here,be looking forward to hearing you play de Visee in Paris, perhaps on this lute, and possibly with an even better little finger position (I will be the bearded one in the front row, with a big grin, perhaps invisble under my beard). Although, I would be quite happy if I could play my lute as you do after holding it for only few minutes. Regards Anthony PS Just the knowledge that yet another Frei exists (perhaps all of you already knew that, but I didn't), pleases me; and the French Maler was only disovered very recently too. Wolfgang Emmerich analysed a fairly recently discovered Railich in Prague, I think, and S. Lippi also discovered an analysed a Railich in Italy. Perhaps, more remain to be discovered. However, for me personally, the idea that one can still make discoveries about finger marks on lute bellies, which haven't been studied before, as MP has done, is, if anything, even more interesting, pushing at the barriers of our knowledge of historic techniques. I haven't yet obtained the new lute record by Anthony Bailes on two- headed lute, but i understand that is also the result of pioneering musical analysis, that has allowed him to open up a new-old musical repertoire. I have to admit in taking some joy at the idea of all that. As I think of this a gleeful smile appears on my face, too. Le 16 déc. 07 à 21:24, Rob a écrit : Please be careful, Anthony. The photo of me grinning like an idiot does not show me playing a la Mouton. I have now adopted, more or less, Mouton's technique which is closer to the bridge than I am using in that photo. I say more or less, because, of course, the position is not fixed, is quite fluid and allied to the subtle dynamic and tonal nuances of the music. When that photo was taken I had only seen the lute for a few minutes and hadn't really played anything. I was grinning because Martin had just accepted a dud cheque, the value of which he will discover tomorrow! Rob -Original Message- From: Anthony Hind [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] The example he chooses is Charles Mouton, so we can compare with the rh position that Rob has also adopted; Rob: http://tinyurl.com/2dlsa3 Charles: http://tinyurl.com/yvlvvq To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge?
Anthony, Thank you very much for these pictures. What's actually interesting about them is how two are close to the bridge and two are not. Only the first is really close to the bridge. (1 and 3 are relatively close, 2 and 4 really not.) But no sign of on the bridge or behind as one sees on many portraits and instruments. So what does this tell us? Robert To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge?
Please be careful, Anthony. The photo of me grinning like an idiot does not show me playing a la Mouton. I have now adopted, more or less, Mouton's technique which is closer to the bridge than I am using in that photo. I say more or less, because, of course, the position is not fixed, is quite fluid and allied to the subtle dynamic and tonal nuances of the music. When that photo was taken I had only seen the lute for a few minutes and hadn't really played anything. I was grinning because Martin had just accepted a dud cheque, the value of which he will discover tomorrow! Rob -Original Message- From: Anthony Hind [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] The example he chooses is Charles Mouton, so we can compare with the rh position that Rob has also adopted; Rob: http://tinyurl.com/2dlsa3 Charles: http://tinyurl.com/yvlvvq To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge?
Dear all, There are new photos of unrestored lutes on Mimmo Peruffo's site at http://www.aquilacorde.com/lutes.htm MP says "On a modern lute completely strung with gut at 3.0 Kg tension per string (1-3 courses + octaves plain gut; 4-5 courses Venices; 6-11 basses loaded gut strings) the best performance was achivied when playing closer to the bridge and with the thumb out; as suggested by old lute treatises, and some paintings " The example he chooses is Charles Mouton, so we can compare with the rh position that Rob has also adopted; Rob: http://tinyurl.com/2dlsa3 Charles: http://tinyurl.com/yvlvvq Detail of Charles on MP's site: http://www.aquilacorde.com/mouton5.jpg But more conclusive are actual finger marks on the lute's belly in these unrestored lutes. "the finger- marks that are on some original d- minor 11 course lutes (that had never been restored) of the Kremsm=C31/4nster (Austria):" There are now four photos of unrestored lutes on Mimmo Peruffo's site. They all show the little finger of the rh, near the bridge, which implies thumb out. The first is the Hans Frei in Bologna; Matthias Fux/R=C3=B6m 1683' http://www.aquilacorde.com/kremsmuenster1.JPG The second is a 'Magno dieffopruchar a venetia/1604 Matthias Fux/ R=C3=B6m. Kays. May- / Hoff-Lautenmacher in Wien 1685/ zuegericht' http://www.aquilacorde.com/kremsmuenster2.JPG The third has no label http://www.aquilacorde.com/kremsmuenster3.JPG The fourth is 'Jakob Wei=CE'/Lauthen-und Gei-/17 genmacher in Saltzburg'. 13 course lute with broken bass rider http://www.aquilacorde.com/kremsmuenster4.JPG I have to say that I have been concentrating on Renaissance technique these last few years, so I rather wish this thumb out technique was not so clearly necessary for 11c Baroque. I always beieved there were only two extant Frei lutes, so this comes as a surprise. We can note the lace surrounding the soundboard, as on Mouton's lute. Regards Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Burwell
Anyway, it is available in the USA via http://www.omifacsimiles.com/cats/lute.html In hardbound as well as paperback.. With the low dollar a good deal as well. They pack well and I have had great service from them. Ciao, Theo From: Eric Crouch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 19:36:22 + To: Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Burwell AFAIK Ruxbery publications (aka RecorderMail, and some other aliases too, I think) are a print to order outfit, so they should be able to do anything that's in their catalogue - if Severinus have transferred the Burwell to them they should be able to print it. Eric Crouch On 16 Dec 2007, at 14:42, Rob wrote: > Same address as these guys: > > http://www.recordermail.co.uk/ > > Rob > > www.rmguitar.info > > > -Original Message- > From: Edward Martin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > "Thank you for your email. These works have been transferred to > Ruxbury > Publications, of Scout Bottom Farm, Mytholmroyd, HX7 5JS, > 2817 East 2nd Street > Duluth, Minnesota 55812 > e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > voice: (218) 728-1202 > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Burwell
AFAIK Ruxbery publications (aka RecorderMail, and some other aliases too, I think) are a print to order outfit, so they should be able to do anything that's in their catalogue - if Severinus have transferred the Burwell to them they should be able to print it. Eric Crouch On 16 Dec 2007, at 14:42, Rob wrote: Same address as these guys: http://www.recordermail.co.uk/ Rob www.rmguitar.info -Original Message- From: Edward Martin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] "Thank you for your email. These works have been transferred to Ruxbury Publications, of Scout Bottom Farm, Mytholmroyd, HX7 5JS, 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Stringing
..as Duke Ellington put it; "if it sounds good, it is good." I, for one who only play post-baroque era lute music, think unison 6th course sounds just fine. It's used often enough as a melody string to bother with fumbling around picking half a course. Easier to add in a 3rd course when I feel an urgency for that octave...(uh, never). Dale - Original Message - From: "Martyn Hodgson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "sterling price" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "T. Diehl-Peshkur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; ; "Edward Martin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 11:03 AM Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Stringing Perhaps a slight danger of applying our modern preconceptions. As far as I am aware, the only historical written and iconographical evidence points to octaves on the 6th - perhaps you know otherwise? MH [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sterling and Roman, Those passages in Hagen in which a melodic line is passed from the 5th to the 6th course sometimes consist of just a note or two on the 6th course. At a slow tempo, one may be able to alter his or her technique so that just the lower string of the course sounds. When the notes happen rapidly, however, it is extremely difficult to aim so as to not hit the upper string. At a quick tempo, the very fact that pitches in the "wrong octave" appear in the middle of an otherwise flowing melodic line can be disconcerting. In the sonatas, Straube, too, makes use of the 6th course as a component of a top-line melody. Even more bothersome are the places in which he uses the 6th course as a middle voice in harmonies to support a very low melody on the (unison) 4th or 5th courses. Since one is also occupied playing a bass note, it is phenomenally difficult to play just the single string on the 6th course. When the middle voice suddenly crosses the low melody, it is extremely obvious and unpleasant! This seems to support the theory that some folks used unisons on the 6th. On the other hand, Straube, Weiss and Hagen sometime use a bass course as a middle voice. This too would result in the middle voice jumping to the top. No arguement here that those are octave strung. Chris --- sterling price wrote: It is easy enough to just pluck the fundamental with the index finger in those passages. Sterling --- Roman Turovsky wrote: > Which would some passages in Hagen in the wrong > octave. > So I wouldn't say all. > RT > > > All baroque lutes, to my knowledge, were strung > with octaves at the 6th > > course. I do not understand what you mean, by > 8'+4". > > > > ed > > > > At 11:31 AM 12/16/2007 +0100, T. Diehl-Peshkur > wrote: > >>Hello collective :-) > >>Just a short question: is it clear form the 11 > course instruments that the > >>6th course was > >>always 8' + 4' strung? Would like to make mine > unison, but am not sure of > >>the original examples... > >>Theo > >> > >>-- > >> > >>To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >> > >> > >>-- > >>No virus found in this incoming message. > >>Checked by AVG Free Edition. > >>Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.17.2/1185 - > Release Date: > >>12/15/2007 12:00 PM > > > > > > > > Edward Martin > > 2817 East 2nd Street > > Duluth, Minnesota 55812 > > e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > voice: (218) 728-1202 > > > > > > > > > > > > > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html - Sent from Yahoo! - a smarter inbox. --
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Stringing
Perhaps a slight danger of applying our modern preconceptions. As far as I am aware, the only historical written and iconographical evidence points to octaves on the 6th - perhaps you know otherwise? MH [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sterling and Roman, Those passages in Hagen in which a melodic line is passed from the 5th to the 6th course sometimes consist of just a note or two on the 6th course. At a slow tempo, one may be able to alter his or her technique so that just the lower string of the course sounds. When the notes happen rapidly, however, it is extremely difficult to aim so as to not hit the upper string. At a quick tempo, the very fact that pitches in the "wrong octave" appear in the middle of an otherwise flowing melodic line can be disconcerting. In the sonatas, Straube, too, makes use of the 6th course as a component of a top-line melody. Even more bothersome are the places in which he uses the 6th course as a middle voice in harmonies to support a very low melody on the (unison) 4th or 5th courses. Since one is also occupied playing a bass note, it is phenomenally difficult to play just the single string on the 6th course. When the middle voice suddenly crosses the low melody, it is extremely obvious and unpleasant! This seems to support the theory that some folks used unisons on the 6th. On the other hand, Straube, Weiss and Hagen sometime use a bass course as a middle voice. This too would result in the middle voice jumping to the top. No arguement here that those are octave strung. Chris --- sterling price wrote: > It is easy enough to just pluck the fundamental with > the index finger in those passages. > Sterling > > --- Roman Turovsky wrote: > > > Which would some passages in Hagen in the wrong > > octave. > > So I wouldn't say all. > > RT > > > > > All baroque lutes, to my knowledge, were strung > > with octaves at the 6th > > > course. I do not understand what you mean, by > > 8'+4". > > > > > > ed > > > > > > At 11:31 AM 12/16/2007 +0100, T. Diehl-Peshkur > > wrote: > > >>Hello collective :-) > > >>Just a short question: is it clear form the 11 > > course instruments that the > > >>6th course was > > >>always 8' + 4' strung? Would like to make mine > > unison, but am not sure of > > >>the original examples... > > >>Theo > > >> > > >>-- > > >> > > >>To get on or off this list see list information > at > > > >>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > >> > > >> > > >>-- > > >>No virus found in this incoming message. > > >>Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > >>Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.17.2/1185 > - > > Release Date: > > >>12/15/2007 12:00 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > Edward Martin > > > 2817 East 2nd Street > > > Duluth, Minnesota 55812 > > > e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > voice: (218) 728-1202 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Looking for last minute shopping deals? > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html - Sent from Yahoo! - a smarter inbox. --
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Stringing
You've beat me to the Straube argument. RT - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "sterling price" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "T. Diehl-Peshkur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; ; "Edward Martin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 10:33 AM Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Stringing Sterling and Roman, Those passages in Hagen in which a melodic line is passed from the 5th to the 6th course sometimes consist of just a note or two on the 6th course. At a slow tempo, one may be able to alter his or her technique so that just the lower string of the course sounds. When the notes happen rapidly, however, it is extremely difficult to aim so as to not hit the upper string. At a quick tempo, the very fact that pitches in the "wrong octave" appear in the middle of an otherwise flowing melodic line can be disconcerting. In the sonatas, Straube, too, makes use of the 6th course as a component of a top-line melody. Even more bothersome are the places in which he uses the 6th course as a middle voice in harmonies to support a very low melody on the (unison) 4th or 5th courses. Since one is also occupied playing a bass note, it is phenomenally difficult to play just the single string on the 6th course. When the middle voice suddenly crosses the low melody, it is extremely obvious and unpleasant! This seems to support the theory that some folks used unisons on the 6th. On the other hand, Straube, Weiss and Hagen sometime use a bass course as a middle voice. This too would result in the middle voice jumping to the top. No arguement here that those are octave strung. Chris --- sterling price <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: It is easy enough to just pluck the fundamental with the index finger in those passages. Sterling --- Roman Turovsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Which would some passages in Hagen in the wrong > octave. > So I wouldn't say all. > RT > > > All baroque lutes, to my knowledge, were strung > with octaves at the 6th > > course. I do not understand what you mean, by > 8'+4". > > > > ed > > > > At 11:31 AM 12/16/2007 +0100, T. Diehl-Peshkur > wrote: > >>Hello collective :-) > >>Just a short question: is it clear form the 11 > course instruments that the > >>6th course was > >>always 8' + 4' strung? Would like to make mine > unison, but am not sure of > >>the original examples... > >>Theo > >> > >>-- > >> > >>To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >> > >> > >>-- > >>No virus found in this incoming message. > >>Checked by AVG Free Edition. > >>Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.17.2/1185 - > Release Date: > >>12/15/2007 12:00 PM > > > > > > > > Edward Martin > > 2817 East 2nd Street > > Duluth, Minnesota 55812 > > e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > voice: (218) 728-1202 > > > > > > > > > > > > > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Stringing
Sterling and Roman, Those passages in Hagen in which a melodic line is passed from the 5th to the 6th course sometimes consist of just a note or two on the 6th course. At a slow tempo, one may be able to alter his or her technique so that just the lower string of the course sounds. When the notes happen rapidly, however, it is extremely difficult to aim so as to not hit the upper string. At a quick tempo, the very fact that pitches in the "wrong octave" appear in the middle of an otherwise flowing melodic line can be disconcerting. In the sonatas, Straube, too, makes use of the 6th course as a component of a top-line melody. Even more bothersome are the places in which he uses the 6th course as a middle voice in harmonies to support a very low melody on the (unison) 4th or 5th courses. Since one is also occupied playing a bass note, it is phenomenally difficult to play just the single string on the 6th course. When the middle voice suddenly crosses the low melody, it is extremely obvious and unpleasant! This seems to support the theory that some folks used unisons on the 6th. On the other hand, Straube, Weiss and Hagen sometime use a bass course as a middle voice. This too would result in the middle voice jumping to the top. No arguement here that those are octave strung. Chris --- sterling price <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > It is easy enough to just pluck the fundamental with > the index finger in those passages. > Sterling > > --- Roman Turovsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Which would some passages in Hagen in the wrong > > octave. > > So I wouldn't say all. > > RT > > > > > All baroque lutes, to my knowledge, were strung > > with octaves at the 6th > > > course. I do not understand what you mean, by > > 8'+4". > > > > > > ed > > > > > > At 11:31 AM 12/16/2007 +0100, T. Diehl-Peshkur > > wrote: > > >>Hello collective :-) > > >>Just a short question: is it clear form the 11 > > course instruments that the > > >>6th course was > > >>always 8' + 4' strung? Would like to make mine > > unison, but am not sure of > > >>the original examples... > > >>Theo > > >> > > >>-- > > >> > > >>To get on or off this list see list information > at > > > >>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > >> > > >> > > >>-- > > >>No virus found in this incoming message. > > >>Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > >>Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.17.2/1185 > - > > Release Date: > > >>12/15/2007 12:00 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > Edward Martin > > > 2817 East 2nd Street > > > Duluth, Minnesota 55812 > > > e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > voice: (218) 728-1202 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Looking for last minute shopping deals? > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Stringing
8' + 4' is taken from harpsichord/organ terminology; I thought it was commonplace usage..8' simply means fundamental, 4' the octave (string or pipe, whatever.) It is used often in organological texts and books as well in the description of instrument pitches. Theo From: Edward Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 08:06:05 -0600 To: "T. Diehl-Peshkur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Stringing All baroque lutes, to my knowledge, were strung with octaves at the 6th course. I do not understand what you mean, by 8'+4". ed At 11:31 AM 12/16/2007 +0100, T. Diehl-Peshkur wrote: >Hello collective :-) >Just a short question: is it clear form the 11 course instruments that the >6th course was >always 8' + 4' strung? Would like to make mine unison, but am not sure of >the original examples... >Theo > >-- > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > >-- >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Free Edition. >Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.17.2/1185 - Release Date: >12/15/2007 12:00 PM Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202 --
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Stringing
For me it wasn't. I've done away with the octave on my 6th in 1988, and mever missed it. RT From: "sterling price" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> It is easy enough to just pluck the fundamental with the index finger in those passages. Sterling --- Roman Turovsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Which would some passages in Hagen in the wrong octave. So I wouldn't say all. RT > All baroque lutes, to my knowledge, were strung with octaves at the 6th > course. I do not understand what you mean, by 8'+4". > > ed > > At 11:31 AM 12/16/2007 +0100, T. Diehl-Peshkur wrote: >>Hello collective :-) >>Just a short question: is it clear form the 11 course instruments that the >>6th course was >>always 8' + 4' strung? Would like to make mine unison, but am not sure of >>the original examples... >>Theo >> >>-- >> >>To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> >> >>-- >>No virus found in this incoming message. >>Checked by AVG Free Edition. >>Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.17.2/1185 - Release Date: >>12/15/2007 12:00 PM > > > > Edward Martin > 2817 East 2nd Street > Duluth, Minnesota 55812 > e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > voice: (218) 728-1202 > > > > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Burwell
Same address as these guys: http://www.recordermail.co.uk/ Rob www.rmguitar.info -Original Message- From: Edward Martin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] "Thank you for your email. These works have been transferred to Ruxbury Publications, of Scout Bottom Farm, Mytholmroyd, HX7 5JS, 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Stringing
It is easy enough to just pluck the fundamental with the index finger in those passages. Sterling --- Roman Turovsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Which would some passages in Hagen in the wrong > octave. > So I wouldn't say all. > RT > > > All baroque lutes, to my knowledge, were strung > with octaves at the 6th > > course. I do not understand what you mean, by > 8'+4". > > > > ed > > > > At 11:31 AM 12/16/2007 +0100, T. Diehl-Peshkur > wrote: > >>Hello collective :-) > >>Just a short question: is it clear form the 11 > course instruments that the > >>6th course was > >>always 8' + 4' strung? Would like to make mine > unison, but am not sure of > >>the original examples... > >>Theo > >> > >>-- > >> > >>To get on or off this list see list information at > >>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >> > >> > >>-- > >>No virus found in this incoming message. > >>Checked by AVG Free Edition. > >>Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.17.2/1185 - > Release Date: > >>12/15/2007 12:00 PM > > > > > > > > Edward Martin > > 2817 East 2nd Street > > Duluth, Minnesota 55812 > > e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > voice: (218) 728-1202 > > > > > > > > > > > > > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Stringing
Which would some passages in Hagen in the wrong octave. So I wouldn't say all. RT All baroque lutes, to my knowledge, were strung with octaves at the 6th course. I do not understand what you mean, by 8'+4". ed At 11:31 AM 12/16/2007 +0100, T. Diehl-Peshkur wrote: Hello collective :-) Just a short question: is it clear form the 11 course instruments that the 6th course was always 8' + 4' strung? Would like to make mine unison, but am not sure of the original examples... Theo -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.17.2/1185 - Release Date: 12/15/2007 12:00 PM Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Stringing
All baroque lutes, to my knowledge, were strung with octaves at the 6th course. I do not understand what you mean, by 8'+4". ed At 11:31 AM 12/16/2007 +0100, T. Diehl-Peshkur wrote: >Hello collective :-) >Just a short question: is it clear form the 11 course instruments that the >6th course was >always 8' + 4' strung? Would like to make mine unison, but am not sure of >the original examples... >Theo > >-- > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > >-- >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Free Edition. >Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.17.2/1185 - Release Date: >12/15/2007 12:00 PM Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Stringing
Von Radolt (1701) clearly indicates octaves on the 6th and, of course, lower. Mouton's tablatures also. MH "T. Diehl-Peshkur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hello collective :-) Just a short question: is it clear form the 11 course instruments that the 6th course was always 8' + 4' strung? Would like to make mine unison, but am not sure of the original examples... Theo -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html - Yahoo! Answers - Get better answers from someone who knows. Tryit now. --
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Stringing
Hello collective :-) Just a short question: is it clear form the 11 course instruments that the 6th course was always 8' + 4' strung? Would like to make mine unison, but am not sure of the original examples... Theo -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: 20[BAROQUE-LUTE] Rép : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Rob+Ch arles=Maler(NewOldFrei)
Thank you for this Anthony (and indeed Mimmo). It is very good to see a lace (silver, I far as I can tell, as allowed historically). Do we know the provenance of this lute and how certain can we be that the lace is the !7th one? Does it show signs of wear or 'polishing' where the forearm rested - even silver would show signs if significantly used. MH Anthony Hind <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Dear All Mimmo Peruffo has just sent me these superb photos of a completely unrestored 11c 'Hans Frei Bologna; Baroqued Matthias Fur/Rom 1683, 71.20 cms vibrating length photographed in January 2005, at the Kremsmunster: Instrumentenmuseum. Mimmo says, "It is clear that this was an original Hans Frei of the renaissance age made d minor in the 1683 year. It is so fantastic to have another confirmation of what Burwell others say about the use of the old Bolognese lutes to rebuilt as 11c lutes", MP. http://tinyurl.com/2gutgg http://tinyurl.com/2cdbof MP says the Bridge holes are 1.80 mm for the 11th hole, 1.55 mm only for the 10th. He says it sounded fantastic to him. He sends it because of my reference to the Mouton lute with the lace around the sound board (this process can clearly be seen on the Kremsmunster Frei lute too); but also because the question has been raised about the rh. little finger position. The marks are very clear to see, near and even perhaps on the bridge. Mimmo also thinks this has to prove the thumb was surely quite out for the player of this instrument. These are his personal photos, but he authorizes me to show them to you, but of course any reference to them, implies quoting him. Personally, I feel privileged to see such photos, and I heartily thank Mimmo for allowing us to view them, and have a little more insight into his research procedures. As I am ordering an 11c Frei lute, and the string length is a little less, but nevertheless quite long, I am relieved to see such string lengths were entirely authentic. Regards Anthony PS This now means that the proportion of extant Freis to Maler Bologna lutes that I know about has slightly changed (3 Freis to 5 Malers), but there are now more 11 ribbed models than 9 ribbed among these (three Frei plus two Maler with 11 ribs, and three Malers with 9 ribs, but to these last you can add the related 9 ribbed Laux Bosh, so it is about equal; but I know of no 7 ribbed Burwell lute, we may still be surprised.) PPS, I feel a little mean not showing these photos to the whole list (Lute), but they are Baroque. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html - Sent from Yahoo! - a smarter inbox. --
