[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Adirondack spruce
Anthony, Knowledge of various top woods is an area of which I have little knowledge, so I dare not make public statements in these areas. Concensus does state that Adirondack is a fantastic top wood, and the proof will be in the playing! ed At 02:29 AM 9/16/2009, Anthony Hind wrote: Ed I didn't know anything either, but thought I should try to find some basic knowledge to be able to discuss with lutemakers. I feel sure that lute players of the past had far more knowledge than we have today about woods and lute structure and how these affect the sound that they were wanting to achieve. Indeed, some luteplayers, such as Jacques Gautier appear to have been lutemakers, or at least lute designers themselves (he is described as maker of lutes for masques in the "programme" for one masque of the time). As I understand it Sitka spruce is not equivalent to Bear Claw, but Bear Claw is quite prevalent in that particular species. It seems rather that Bear claw Sika is close in hardness to Adirondak. I have no idea if Adirondak can also have Bear claw, but from what others say, it seems most of it is quite young, in which case this is rather unlikely. Here is an example of Bear Claw, for those who have probably seen it, but know it by another name: Horizontal Bear claw http://s105.photobucket.com/albums/m215/ag-no3phile/lute%20playing/ soundboard/?action=view¤t=BearClaw1.jpg Vertical Bear Claw http://s105.photobucket.com/albums/m215/ag-no3phile/lute%20playing/ soundboard/?action=view¤t=BearClaw2.jpg Bear Claw on guitar table http://s105.photobucket.com/albums/m215/ag-no3phile/lute%20playing/ soundboard/?action=view¤t=BearClaw6.png I know a Baroque Gamba that was made out of the wood of an ancient destroyed Chinese building (while making new roads). The table shows superb Bear claw marks, and one would presume that this would have been from a far eastern variety, so probably not Sitka. I am looking forward to hearing about how it sounds, and actually just hearing it, on your next CD! Anthony Le 15 sept. 09 à 15:19, Edward Martin a écrit : Anthony, Thank you for your reply. The subject of top woods is very interesting, and it is something of which I have little knowledge.I have also read the forums on this subject. I had not known that Sitka spruce is also known as bear claw. Whether the lute will sound rich immediately is not known, but I ought to discover it soon! ed At 04:44 AM 9/15/2009, Anthony Hind wrote: Dear Ed I had a look at what guitar sites said about Adirondack, and it seems "that the chief benefit of using Adirondak Spruce as a top is its stiffness to weight ratio." http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/archive/index.php/ t-51636.html Presumably this makes it possible to cut the table thinner, and so its reactions should become faster (similar to what happens with carbon). This is also what Mimmo tells me about spruce treated with salts. The wood becomes much harder, and can be cut thinner. That is also why, Martin Haycock told me he liked to use Bird's eye maple for backs; because it is relatively hard, he can cut it thinner than Sycamore. Incidentally, on the guitar page, there is a tendancy to associate Bearclaw Sitka, with Adirondak, for the same reason. "the qualities of Bearclaw Sitka allow it to be worked to achieve better tone. Due to it's superior stiffness the top can be dimensioned a little thinner (perhaps this isn't done by the "factory" guitar makers?). This should translate into a faster attack transient (an essential characteristic for clean, fast flat picking). If that is what you are looking for, then that would be better." (However, I was also told, "The rather unusual 'bear claw' figure seems to be an irregularity of the annual rings themselves, and as you have seen for yourself, can be very variable. Wood showing this figure seems generally to be stiff and acoustically good, although I do not think especially better than normal wood, and I would rather use it for its decorative qualities, and not assume it wil be superior acoustically." Now, presumably, if Adirondak (or Bear claw Sika) were used as though it were regular European Spruce, it would need far longer running-in. It would presumably show higher resistance to vibration. On the other hand, I read somewhere on a violin page that you do need to accept a fairly long playing-in time; that it is quite easy to make a top that can be run-in quickly, by making it too thin, but then it tends to die early too. However I am sure Daniel will make you a superb Adirondak top, although I rather agree with David, that this does not mean that many lutemakers will swap over to it. I don't think that the very successful experiments with salts loaded spruce tops has lead many lutemakers to try it. The main thing is that you will soon be back playing 11c music, and perhaps we will have another excellent recording like your recent Conradi - Kelner record. Best wishes Anthony Le 1
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Adirondack spruce
Dear Martyn Le 15 sept. 09 à 16:51, Martyn Hodgson a écrit : Dear Anthony, I don't know if you are aware of the pioneering work on treatment of violin wood which Joseph Michelman undertook in the US during the 1940s: his work was published (VIOLIN VARNISH) in 1946. No, I heard of the more recent work relating to salt loading of Strads by the Hungarian, Nagyvary http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn10686 http://tinyurl.com/62juy9 Presumably, he was basing his research on the ideas of Michelman. Mimmo also carried out similar research, noting that metallic salts replace the sap compounds in the wood and make it as hard as stone. The earliest reference, I believe to treating instruments with salts, is in a work by Bernard Palissy. Thank you for telling me about this work by Michelman, I would indeed be interested in reading it. I seem to remember when I was a child that cricket bats were soaked in linseed oil, and that if this was not done they would crack almost immediately. I just assumed that the oils somehow made the wood more supple (less brittle), but I didn't think harder, but presumably, if the process is similar to that discussed by Michelman, it should result both in a more flexibilty and a harder wood. Could this process be attempted on a completed lute (similarly to the cricket bat)? I am not suggesting one should try, just wondering. In the case of the salts, I think the wood becomes more dense, and so this allows it to be cut thinner, while it sounds as though linseed might simply make the wood lighter (whatever its thickness), but perhaps I have not completely grasped the concept. I will certainly have to read Michelman before liberally applying the linseed! Anthony I believe Michelman was a chemist and certainly his book demonstrates a rigourous appoach to violin varnish and belly treatments than many earlier works. What may be on interest in the context of salt loading of sounboards is that he reported on what he believed the early makers used to permanently reduce the unecessary weight of the sounboard and improve stifness. In his case he conducted trials and concluded that linseed oil was used which replaced the heavier water content much, perhaps, in the same way as salt loading may do. Michelman also described work with 'metal soaps' which are produced when water soluble salts react with fatty acids in the wood - I presume this is also linked to salt loading outcomes. In short, well worth a read if you're interested in the subject Martyn --- On Tue, 15/9/09, Anthony Hind wrote: From: Anthony Hind Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Adirondack spruce To: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Tuesday, 15 September, 2009, 10:45 AM Dear Ed I had a look at what guitar sites said about Adirondack, and it seems "that the chief benefit of using Adirondak Spruce as a top is its stiffness to weight ratio." http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/archive/index.php/ t-51636.html Presumably this makes it possible to cut the table thinner, and so its reactions should become faster (similar to what happens with carbon). This is also what Mimmo tells me about spruce treated with salts. The wood becomes much harder, and can be cut thinner. That is also why, Martin Haycock told me he liked to use Bird's eye maple for backs; because it is relatively hard, he can cut it thinner than Sycamore. Incidentally, on the guitar page, there is a tendancy to associate Bearclaw Sitka, with Adirondak, for the same reason. "the qualities of Bearclaw Sitka allow it to be worked to achieve better tone. Due to it's superior stiffness the top can be dimensioned a little thinner (perhaps this isn't done by the "factory" guitar makers?). This should translate into a faster attack transient (an essential characteristic for clean, fast flat picking). If that is what you are looking for, then that would be better." (However, I was also told, "The rather unusual 'bear claw' figure seems to be an irregularity of the annual rings themselves, and as you have seen for yourself, can be very variable. Wood showing this figure seems generally to be stiff and acoustically good, although I do not think especially better than normal wood, and I would rather use it for its decorative qualities, and not assume it wil be superior acoustically." Now, presumably, if Adirondak (or Bear claw Sika) were used as though it were regular European Spruce, it would need far longer running-in. It would presumably show higher resistance to vibration. On the other hand, I read somewhere on a violin page that you do need to accept a fairly long playing-in time; that it is quite easy to make a top that can be run-in quickly, by making it too thin, but then it tends to die early too. However I am sure Daniel will make you a superb Adirondak top, although I rather agree with David, that this does not mean that many lutemakers will swap over to it. I don't think
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Adirondack spruce
Ed I didn't know anything either, but thought I should try to find some basic knowledge to be able to discuss with lutemakers. I feel sure that lute players of the past had far more knowledge than we have today about woods and lute structure and how these affect the sound that they were wanting to achieve. Indeed, some luteplayers, such as Jacques Gautier appear to have been lutemakers, or at least lute designers themselves (he is described as maker of lutes for masques in the "programme" for one masque of the time). As I understand it Sitka spruce is not equivalent to Bear Claw, but Bear Claw is quite prevalent in that particular species. It seems rather that Bear claw Sika is close in hardness to Adirondak. I have no idea if Adirondak can also have Bear claw, but from what others say, it seems most of it is quite young, in which case this is rather unlikely. Here is an example of Bear Claw, for those who have probably seen it, but know it by another name: Horizontal Bear claw http://s105.photobucket.com/albums/m215/ag-no3phile/lute%20playing/ soundboard/?action=view¤t=BearClaw1.jpg Vertical Bear Claw http://s105.photobucket.com/albums/m215/ag-no3phile/lute%20playing/ soundboard/?action=view¤t=BearClaw2.jpg Bear Claw on guitar table http://s105.photobucket.com/albums/m215/ag-no3phile/lute%20playing/ soundboard/?action=view¤t=BearClaw6.png I know a Baroque Gamba that was made out of the wood of an ancient destroyed Chinese building (while making new roads). The table shows superb Bear claw marks, and one would presume that this would have been from a far eastern variety, so probably not Sitka. I am looking forward to hearing about how it sounds, and actually just hearing it, on your next CD! Anthony Le 15 sept. 09 à 15:19, Edward Martin a écrit : Anthony, Thank you for your reply. The subject of top woods is very interesting, and it is something of which I have little knowledge.I have also read the forums on this subject. I had not known that Sitka spruce is also known as bear claw. Whether the lute will sound rich immediately is not known, but I ought to discover it soon! ed At 04:44 AM 9/15/2009, Anthony Hind wrote: Dear Ed I had a look at what guitar sites said about Adirondack, and it seems "that the chief benefit of using Adirondak Spruce as a top is its stiffness to weight ratio." http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/archive/index.php/ t-51636.html Presumably this makes it possible to cut the table thinner, and so its reactions should become faster (similar to what happens with carbon). This is also what Mimmo tells me about spruce treated with salts. The wood becomes much harder, and can be cut thinner. That is also why, Martin Haycock told me he liked to use Bird's eye maple for backs; because it is relatively hard, he can cut it thinner than Sycamore. Incidentally, on the guitar page, there is a tendancy to associate Bearclaw Sitka, with Adirondak, for the same reason. "the qualities of Bearclaw Sitka allow it to be worked to achieve better tone. Due to it's superior stiffness the top can be dimensioned a little thinner (perhaps this isn't done by the "factory" guitar makers?). This should translate into a faster attack transient (an essential characteristic for clean, fast flat picking). If that is what you are looking for, then that would be better." (However, I was also told, "The rather unusual 'bear claw' figure seems to be an irregularity of the annual rings themselves, and as you have seen for yourself, can be very variable. Wood showing this figure seems generally to be stiff and acoustically good, although I do not think especially better than normal wood, and I would rather use it for its decorative qualities, and not assume it wil be superior acoustically." Now, presumably, if Adirondak (or Bear claw Sika) were used as though it were regular European Spruce, it would need far longer running-in. It would presumably show higher resistance to vibration. On the other hand, I read somewhere on a violin page that you do need to accept a fairly long playing-in time; that it is quite easy to make a top that can be run-in quickly, by making it too thin, but then it tends to die early too. However I am sure Daniel will make you a superb Adirondak top, although I rather agree with David, that this does not mean that many lutemakers will swap over to it. I don't think that the very successful experiments with salts loaded spruce tops has lead many lutemakers to try it. The main thing is that you will soon be back playing 11c music, and perhaps we will have another excellent recording like your recent Conradi - Kelner record. Best wishes Anthony Le 15 sept. 09 à 05:45, Edward Martin a écrit : Thanks, David. I fully understand that a new lute (i.e. top, in my case) will not sound as seasoned as an older one, but in this case, I had no option, due to the damage. I have heard that "righ
