[BAROQUE-LUTE] Yet more Re: [VIHUELAR) Re: Moravsky Manuscript AND five course guitar stringing
Dear Monica.
My responses are interposed below in bold, new roman and italic for
clear differentiation (sadly, though, not in my preferred typeface for
the others on the list version which only goes to them in standard
typeface and no spacing but, from what Wayne tells me, it'll reach you
with correct typeface etc)
I think we must still agree to disagree about much of
this!..
Best wishes,
Martyn
__
From: "mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk"
To: hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk; Daniel Shoskes ;
VihuelaList
Sent: Saturday, 6 January 2018, 16:41
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Further to Re: Moravsky Manuscript AND five
course guitar stringing
Unfortunately the folio numbers are not very clear in the pdf. Some of
the pages seem to have been cropped on the right- hand side when the
film was made and the recto and verso of each folio is on a single page
of the pdf.
-
[MH: Yes - it's a shame about this]
-
I will try to refer to the correct ones.
To recap
Folio 48r is headed "Fundamenta Gytarra".
-
[MH: Indeed, and not as just 'Cytarra' (or Chytarra) as correctly
pointed
out in my last]
-
The tablature checks indicate that this instrument has five stopped
courses and one
additional unstopped bass course. Folio 48v is headed "Accordo Gytarra
et Mandora".
-
[MH: This is an incorrect assumption. The overwhelming bulk of pieces
of
pieces in this MS are clearly written for just a five course
instrument (see
my telling note earlier about the transcription for a five course
instrument
- I naturally suggest for gytarra for this version of the same (Losy?)
piece presented earlier for a six course instrument, the mandora).
-
You are right â I agree that these are two different instruments. The
Gytarra has five
stopped courses and one unstopped bass as shown in the first section of
the tablature.
-
{MH: No, you've got this mixed up, as explained earlier and again in
this
mail. The gytarra has five courses, the madora six. The theorboed
instrument is probably a theorboed guitar a la Strad or similar..
-
The Mandora has seven unstopped basses as shown in the
second section of tablature. It is to be assumed that the stopped
courses of both instruments are tuned in the same way. It is not for a
five course gytarra or a six course mandora as you seem to suggest.
-
[MH: This is a mistaken view of what the source tells us since, as
already pointed out, most of the pieces (some 85% of them) in the MS
are for just a five course instrument. You have assumed that the part
between the first set of double bar lines refers equally to the
gytarra
and to the mandora.
As already explained, this is mistaken because the overwhelming bulk
of pieces in the MS are, in fact, for a five course instrument (the
gytarra) rather than for the common mandora tuning with six courses.
I examine this matter again below]
-
I don't think either of these two examples refer to an instrument with
just five stopped courses.
-
[ MH: as said above, you appear to have overlooked contrary
information
about the tablature already brought to your attention earlier.]
-
On Folio 96r there is a table of alfabeto chords and a tablature tuning
chart headed "Accordo aliud" (?). If that is right I assume it means
"another tuning" but my Latin or Czech is pretty basic. In the table of
chords, the open courses to be included are only shown for Chord E;
Chord is very odd â Indeed, as pointed out, they are wrong - a B flat
minor chord with G on the first course. There are stroke marks on the
lowest line.
-
[MH: No - this is a simple bowlderisation and inaccurate
representation
of nominal five course guitar tuning (as employed in the following aria
set in tablature AND with Alafbeto - see my earlier note about this
feature in this particular piece which has been overlooked). Clearly
the tuning diagram showing an octave between the open first and fifth
fret on the third course makes no sense - neither does that between
the
third fret of the second course and the open third course! The scribe
has simply got the courses wrong..
It is the following aria (on f. 96v not on 96), identified in my last,
this
piece clearly confirms this piece as being in the ordinary nominal
guitar
tuning intervals - and not any known lute (or mandora!) tuning. The
mandora never employed Alfabeto as appears in this work
-
As far as the pieces are concerned, whether or not the unstopped sixth
course is used seems to depend on the key of the piece. Those on f.
48v- f.59v which use the sixth course are mostly in C major or keys
without sharps, whilst those from f. 60r âf.76v are in A major or D
ma
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Yet more Re: [VIHUELAR) Re: Moravsky Manuscript AND five course guitar stringing
I can't possibly respond to all of this. You seem to be so muddled
that it is difficult to grasp what you actually mean..
I think your interpretation of the tablature tuning checks is simply
wrong. The fact that much of the music does not use the sixth unstopped
course,(or for that matter the seven unstopped courses of the mandora)
is irrelevant. The tablature tuning check for the gytara indicates
that it has 5 stopped courses and one unstopped bass. You are muddling
up two different facets of the manuscript. None of this has any bearing
on how the 5-course guitar was strung.
My analysis of the keys of the pieces is as accurate as I could make in
the time available.The pieces which use the sixth course are in C major
or flat keys and the ones which do not are almost all in A major, with
a few in D major. The manuscript was obviously copied over a period
of time. The pieces from f.76v form a new section with pieces numbered
1-56, probably copied at a later date. The manuscript is a very
complex document.
You also seem to be confused about Stradivarius. It is not clear
whether these instruments are lute shaped or figure of 8 shaped. The
surviving patterns are of the neck and pegboxes only. The stringing
instructions for the one of them indicate that the high octave strings
are on the thumb side of the course.
I will have to leave it there.
As ever
Monica
Original Message
From: hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Date: 07/01/2018 14:48
To: "Monica Hall", "Daniel Shoskes", "VihuelaList", "Baroque Lute List"
Subj: Yet more Re: [VIHUELAR) Re: Moravsky Manuscript AND five course
guitar stringing
Dear Monica.
My responses are interposed below in bold, new roman and italic for
clear differentiation (sadly, though, not in my preferred typeface for
the others on the list version which only goes to them in standard
typeface and no spacing but, from what Wayne tells me, it'll reach you
with correct typeface etc)
I think we must still agree to disagree about much of
this!..
Best wishes,
Martyn
From: "mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk"
To: hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk; Daniel Shoskes ;
VihuelaList
Sent: Saturday, 6 January 2018, 16:41
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Further to Re: Moravsky Manuscript AND five
course guitar stringing
Unfortunately the folio numbers are not very clear in the pdf. Some of
the pages seem to have been cropped on the right- hand side when the
film was made and the recto and verso of each folio is on a single
page
of the pdf.-[MH: Yes - it's a shame about this]- I will try to refer
to the correct ones.
To recapFolio 48r is headed “Fundamenta Gytarra”. -[MH: Indeed, and not
as just 'Cytarra' (or Chytarra) as correctly pointed out in my last]
- The tablature checks indicate that this instrument has five stopped
courses and one additional unstopped bass course. Folio 48v is headed
“Accordo Gytarra et Mandora”. -[MH: This is an incorrect assumption.
The overwhelming bulk of pieces of pieces in this MS are clearly
written for just a five course instrument (see my telling note earlier
about the transcription for a five course instrument - I naturally
suggest for gytarra for this version of the same (Losy?)
piece presented earlier for a six course instrument, the mandora).-You
are right – I agree that these are two different instruments. The
Gytarra has five
stopped courses and one unstopped bass as shown in the first section
of
the tablature. -
{MH: No, you've got this mixed up, as explained earlier and again in
this mail. The gytarra has five courses, the madora six. The theorboed
instrument is probably a theorboed guitar a la Strad or similar..
- The Mandora has seven unstopped basses as shown in the
second section of tablature. It is to be assumed that the stopped
courses of both instruments are tuned in the same way. It is not for a
five course gytarra or a six course mandora as you seem to suggest.
-[MH: This is a mistaken view of what the source tells us since,
as already pointed out, most of the pieces (some 85% of them) in the
MS are for just a five course instrument. You have assumed that the
part between the first set of double bar lines refers equally to the
gytarra and to the mandora. As already explained, this is mistaken
because the overwhelming bulk of pieces in the MS are, in fact, for a
five course instrument (thegytarra) rather than for the common mandora
tuning with six courses. I examine this matter again below]-I don’t
think either of these two examples refer to an instrument with
just five stopped courses.
-[ MH: as said above, you appear to have overlooked contrary
information about the tablature already brought to your attention
earlier.] -On Folio 96r there is a table of alfabeto chords and a
tablature tuning
chart headed “Accordo aliud” (?). If that is right I assume it means
“another tuning” but my Latin or Czech is pretty basic. In the table
of
chords, the open cours
