[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Kupetzky image
Thanks Andreas. I have to know that Ah, one more thing in matter of the 13 course swan neck lute: There are some paintings were it is possible to 'see' white basses on the extended neck. Said that,. there is a well detaileed painting (David van Edward source) were the long diapasons are thick and in a grey colour. what to think? One thing intrigue me: if the long basses were actually made of pure gut (and the risk is to have no advantage in the performances on a 13 course lute with the rider strung with wound strings), WHY the scale was limited to 95 cms more or less only? I would reach 120 cm almost just to still have the octaves to the basses and better performances over the wound strings of the 13 course lutewith rider. heck. Mimmo -Messaggio originale- From: Andreas Schlegel Sent: Saturday, April 8, 2017 12:04 PM To: Mimmo Peruffo Cc: lute list ; Baroque Lute List Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Kupetzky image Dear Mimmo, You Andreas discovered the Lexicon of 1715 that actually was the fist german source discovered. I think it was Michael Treder who published first this source in his "Ein irdisches Vergnügen für Barocklaute" (I received an early version in 2010). Perhaps Tim Crawford knew the Lexikon earlier, but who knows? It was at least a topic in 2012 in Bemen at the Bach symposium and I already knew the citation by Michael and was surprised that Tim mentioned it, too, in his lecture. Per Kjetil Farstad doen't mentioned in his "Lautenistinnen in Deutschland im 18. Jahrhundert" from 2011. All the best, Andreas To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Kupetzky image
Thanks Andreas I would give here my small contribute Today the use of wound strings for the german d minor lutes is well demostrated You Andreas discovered the Lexicon of 1715 that actually was the fist german source discovered. Then I was lucky to discovered some more sources that mentioned wound strings for the 11 and 13 d minor lutes: a german source of 1763; a french source of 1765 and a german source of 1795. There are some other sources but unfortunately In have some problem with the language and so I am not sure if these are mentioning lute wound strings The problem today is not to know if the german lutes has wound strings: this is now very clear. The problem is: which is the identity of these wound strings? In those times they can be done using gut or silk cores only; they can be done close or open wound well, for some technical details (for example the thinnest metal wire available in those times and the relate metal drawing technology available etc etc) to me it is clear that they were open wound only (the 11 bass of the kupezky painting is probably an open wound: see that there are small little white spot in the string, exactly like in some 18 th C french violin paintings in matter of the 3rd string that in France was open wound) Incidentally these open wound were of common use in several instruments around the lute like the 5 course guitar, the 6 course mandolin, bass gamba 4th, violin 3rd. Why not on the lute?? The open howver question is: what about the swan neck lute basses? I have the hole gauges of many bridges of these swan neck lutes that ranging from 1.4 mm till 1.9 mm on the 13 th bass course Pure gut basses? they are too dull, there is no any advantage on a 13 course lute with the reader AND with wound strings. Wound strings? it is much more better and they give improvement (basically more sustain and clear sound) So open wwound basses is the option, to me. The surviving small piece of open wound strings of a raphael Mest lute can be a clear indication Silk or gut cores?? this is a question that is not possible to solve easily. What it is clear is that they were OBLIGED to employ an open wound structure due to the fact that very thin metal wires were not available in the market, in those times. The thinner gauge available is the N 12 of the Nurnberg scale of wires and it is of .15 mm. On a close wound one can do just the 9 bass down, no the 8,7,6, bass strings. on a 13 course lute with swan necks thuing are even worse. I have tried an silk core open wound: guess thast?? The sound is terrible even changing the ratio between metal wires and the core ect etc At the end of the day, using the octave string and then made it half wound or a bit more ( Le Coq 1723; Corrette 1740's) ) make exactly an octave down at the same tension whose string density became twice of gut. so the octave is still necessary in the course Mimmo. -Messaggio originale- From: Andreas Schlegel Sent: Saturday, April 8, 2017 8:54 AM To: lute list ; Baroque Lute List Subject: Kupetzky image Dear all, Thanks a lot for all support! The important detail on this picture is for us the bass string of the 11th course which seems to be a string which is overspun with silver wire. Important other details for the datation are given by Jiri Arnet: http://baroque-lute.webnode.cz/products/portrait-of-david-hoyer-playing-lute/ But the most important question is the date of the portrait. The date is not 1711 as written in some articles and as file name, but 1716. I found this on p. 25-28 of: http://www.mdz-nbn-resolving.de/urn/resolver.pl?urn=urn:nbn:de:bvb:12-bsb10915517-1 Johann C. Füssli: Leben Georg Philipp Rugendas und Johann Kupezki, Zürich 1758 So it's one year after the Frauenzimmer-Lexikon, in which the first time the use of overspun strings on a lute instrument is mentioned - as far as I know. (The Piccinini citation is very unclear and it's not very probable that he meant overspun strings.) All the best Andreas To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing (corrected)
Hello to anyone I have made this video showing the last version of ther CD basses. [1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKrNCEOfPVM there is a brief text in the video explaining the difference than the first CD's types. In the video I am a bit tired after this very stresses job. Do not worry for that Mimmo -- References 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKrNCEOfPVM To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing
Here is: the not red bass string that is the 11 course is those made with more stiffer elastomer. the turns on the peg where just half. th sound has less sustain and it is powerfull and darker. I am very happy with it. The 5 course: the string of that course I am playing is made with a stiffer elastomer and have the same quantity of copper. I like it a lot: less metallic and indeed less stretchly, far more blanced. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4s4CkDP580&feature=em-upload_owner well i stop here. I have flu now (thanks London!) it is a pity, I would like to start to do the batch soon. Mimmo To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing
well guys, I think to have good news. I am doing, right now, the first few strings using a stiffer elasthomer and the same quantity of copper powder. I must admit that the process is even easy than before. The strings are absolutely no false and pretty even. The sound: darker and with less sustain, similar to those of the 2nd generation of the loaded gut strings (venices charged with copper powder). They stretch less and they are even more slippering on the nut- grooves. I am doing the Meanes now. I have a bit of difficoults but I am not worry at all. I will find the way soon. This is just a short report. I will do a short video for my own Youtube channel. ciao Mimmo To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing
Thanks Jaroslaw, good report indeed. Actually I have not in mind the business side, it is just my love for such instrument, passion, i mean. In short, I would like to do something that is 'emotional'. Hared toi explain, it is something related to me and my feel when I hear a Lute. The Bacon writting is almost clear to me and i feel in this way. Said that, it is very interesting your comparation of the CD's with the KF ones and with the Venices I am thinking that these CD's are to much performant than the necessity. So I am going to prefere the second option: at the end of the day it solve also a lot of meccanical problems Mille grazie Mimmo (thanks Anthony) -Messaggio originale- From: Jarosław Lipski Sent: Friday, February 03, 2017 11:39 AM To: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing Mimmo, You experience is that a roped string is duller than a plain gut? I have the contrary. Maybe it is necessary to know how the roped string was done. Mine is a roped string made with two fresh 'brins' twisted like as rope and then polished. In practice our Venices. Yes, I use your Venice roped strings and can confirm this. They are brighter than plain gut I would like to buy some KF strings just to do a comparation: I have both KFs and your CDs and compared them side to side. KFs have shorter sustain, are more percussive and …slightly duller sound IMO. KFs work well till 11th course on BQL. I don’t like them on diapasons. CDs have stronger fundamental, longer sustain (much longer than guts) and work very well on diapasons, however their elasticity make them work only on instruments with higher than normal action and wide string spacing. Also tuning is not ideal. Heck, guys, what to do? first or second option? At present the second option is the winner! Now, the question is what is your goal in making CD strings. If you aim at finding a substitute for gut strings than stiffer strings would be better. I am used to gut basses so I like short sustain and a little bit stiffer string. If someone played only overwounds he/she would probably prefer longer sustain. So the answer to your question will depend on whom you’ll ask. All in all there is no one answer to this question, and probably you would have to take into consideration your business strategy. Best Ciao Jaroslaw ciao to all Mimmo -Messaggio originale- From: Martin Shepherd Sent: Friday, February 03, 2017 10:22 AM To: Mimmo Peruffo ; Matthew Daillie Cc: Arto Wikla ; baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing Thanks, Mimmo. I agree absolutely that there is no need to make versions of these strings thinner than .80mm. The issue of damping is perhaps the one which worries me most. In the case of roped strings, they sound duller than a plain gut string of the same size, presumably because of internal friction between the strands of the rope. In the case of rubber strings (sorry!) what worries me is that some damping/absorption of energy is happening as the string stretches and contracts with each vibration. The KF fluorocarbon strings, being solid and stiff, have neither of these damping effects. I can imagine that a string which was "floppy" but not especially elastic would work well. I hope that a lower rubber content would allow the strings to slide better over the nut, which would also be a welcome characteristic. Best to all, Martin On 03/02/2017 10:09, Mimmo Peruffo wrote: Thank you very much about all these helpfull suggestions, guys. actually the gauges from 80 CD till 105CD are made half loaded using also a stiffer elastomer. This combination is perfect fo the tonl trasiction betweenj pure gut/nylon/Nylgut to a wound strings, KF or CDs etc etc. I call this range of gauges simply as Meanes. they are still CD types however. In practice they are around the 5th course of renaissance & d minor Lutes. I have intentionally exluded the 4th courses because make not sense at all to use a denser strings on it. The 80 CD is just done for those that are curious. well, I done the very first prototypes (than cannot be perfect) and sent out to some friends to hear their opinions: of course, some of them were uneven. Despite that I had very good reports. Some installed them also like octaves (!): I never realized that additional option. However, I do not raccomend. Octaves normally can works at higher working index than a 5 th course; so they can breack. said that, I agree with you Matthew. thanks Martin, a stiffer string has an higher elasticity modulus so the performances are less good than those of an equivalent string with more elasticity. You probably reffers to the KF strings. However there are others parameters at work here, for example the inner damping effect is one of them, and it is not related to the elasticity modulus. This exp
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing
Ok martin to say all: I have already tried such stiffer 'rubbers' (ah ah): increasing the stiffness at the same metal powder quantity the sound became step by step darker with less sustain. Using the most elastic 'rubber' the sound open a lot but the string became too stretchly. You experience is that a roped string is duller than a plain gut? I have the contrary. Maybe it is necessary to know how the roped string was done. Mine is a roped string made with two fresh 'brins' twisted like as rope and then polished. In practice our Venices. I would like to buy some KF strings just to do a comparation: some of you guys are by chance at the mandolino meeting in London so you can show one to me? This make things faster Heck, guys, what to do? first or second option? At present the second option is the winner! ciao to all Mimmo -Messaggio originale- From: Martin Shepherd Sent: Friday, February 03, 2017 10:22 AM To: Mimmo Peruffo ; Matthew Daillie Cc: Arto Wikla ; baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing Thanks, Mimmo. I agree absolutely that there is no need to make versions of these strings thinner than .80mm. The issue of damping is perhaps the one which worries me most. In the case of roped strings, they sound duller than a plain gut string of the same size, presumably because of internal friction between the strands of the rope. In the case of rubber strings (sorry!) what worries me is that some damping/absorption of energy is happening as the string stretches and contracts with each vibration. The KF fluorocarbon strings, being solid and stiff, have neither of these damping effects. I can imagine that a string which was "floppy" but not especially elastic would work well. I hope that a lower rubber content would allow the strings to slide better over the nut, which would also be a welcome characteristic. Best to all, Martin On 03/02/2017 10:09, Mimmo Peruffo wrote: Thank you very much about all these helpfull suggestions, guys. actually the gauges from 80 CD till 105CD are made half loaded using also a stiffer elastomer. This combination is perfect fo the tonl trasiction betweenj pure gut/nylon/Nylgut to a wound strings, KF or CDs etc etc. I call this range of gauges simply as Meanes. they are still CD types however. In practice they are around the 5th course of renaissance & d minor Lutes. I have intentionally exluded the 4th courses because make not sense at all to use a denser strings on it. The 80 CD is just done for those that are curious. well, I done the very first prototypes (than cannot be perfect) and sent out to some friends to hear their opinions: of course, some of them were uneven. Despite that I had very good reports. Some installed them also like octaves (!): I never realized that additional option. However, I do not raccomend. Octaves normally can works at higher working index than a 5 th course; so they can breack. said that, I agree with you Matthew. thanks Martin, a stiffer string has an higher elasticity modulus so the performances are less good than those of an equivalent string with more elasticity. You probably reffers to the KF strings. However there are others parameters at work here, for example the inner damping effect is one of them, and it is not related to the elasticity modulus. This explain for example why a special kind of nylon, whose density is far less than fluorocarbon sound like this one. It was a huge surprise to me! I am thinking that you guys prefer the second option. To me is even better, it help to solve some problem becausew they sometime stick on the nut slots/ grooves. False strings? yes, with prototypes can happen. when one start with the ufficial production an extruder plant work exatly in the same even way. The first strings are the waste and then the rest are done exactly in the same way. well, I am leaving italy to London so I have not time to re start; I will do some samples both for meanes and basses just to see if they actually works in the proper way Be patient again; i cannot be too fast here. Mimmo -Messaggio originale- From: Martin Shepherd Sent: Friday, February 03, 2017 9:35 AM To: Matthew Daillie ; Mimmo Peruffo Cc: Arto Wikla ; baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing Tout à fait d'accord, Matthew. I would add that "trueness" is not just a question of intonation when notes are fretted. A false string never sounds in tune even as an open string, and the pattern of vibration makes it buzz against the frets. If your string heights are high enough that this isn't a problem, they're too high. I don't know whether the samples I had from Mimmo some time ago are the same as the current production, but I thought they were too elastic. He did say he was going to make a less elastic version for the thinne
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing
Thank you very much about all these helpfull suggestions, guys. actually the gauges from 80 CD till 105CD are made half loaded using also a stiffer elastomer. This combination is perfect fo the tonl trasiction betweenj pure gut/nylon/Nylgut to a wound strings, KF or CDs etc etc. I call this range of gauges simply as Meanes. they are still CD types however. In practice they are around the 5th course of renaissance & d minor Lutes. I have intentionally exluded the 4th courses because make not sense at all to use a denser strings on it. The 80 CD is just done for those that are curious. well, I done the very first prototypes (than cannot be perfect) and sent out to some friends to hear their opinions: of course, some of them were uneven. Despite that I had very good reports. Some installed them also like octaves (!): I never realized that additional option. However, I do not raccomend. Octaves normally can works at higher working index than a 5 th course; so they can breack. said that, I agree with you Matthew. thanks Martin, a stiffer string has an higher elasticity modulus so the performances are less good than those of an equivalent string with more elasticity. You probably reffers to the KF strings. However there are others parameters at work here, for example the inner damping effect is one of them, and it is not related to the elasticity modulus. This explain for example why a special kind of nylon, whose density is far less than fluorocarbon sound like this one. It was a huge surprise to me! I am thinking that you guys prefer the second option. To me is even better, it help to solve some problem becausew they sometime stick on the nut slots/ grooves. False strings? yes, with prototypes can happen. when one start with the ufficial production an extruder plant work exatly in the same even way. The first strings are the waste and then the rest are done exactly in the same way. well, I am leaving italy to London so I have not time to re start; I will do some samples both for meanes and basses just to see if they actually works in the proper way Be patient again; i cannot be too fast here. Mimmo -Messaggio originale- From: Martin Shepherd Sent: Friday, February 03, 2017 9:35 AM To: Matthew Daillie ; Mimmo Peruffo Cc: Arto Wikla ; baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing Tout à fait d'accord, Matthew. I would add that "trueness" is not just a question of intonation when notes are fretted. A false string never sounds in tune even as an open string, and the pattern of vibration makes it buzz against the frets. If your string heights are high enough that this isn't a problem, they're too high. I don't know whether the samples I had from Mimmo some time ago are the same as the current production, but I thought they were too elastic. He did say he was going to make a less elastic version for the thinner strings, but I don't know whether he's implemented this idea or not (can you tell us, Mimmo?). I'm slightly puzzled by the suggestion that the less elastic version would have a duller or darker sound, I would almost expect the opposite - as a comparison, the KF strings are very stiff but sound bright. It would be such a shame if after all his efforts we end up with a string which is not as good as the old loaded gut. Actually the new string needs to be better than that in terms of trueness. Best wishes to all, Martin On 03/02/2017 09:06, Matthew Daillie wrote: Dear Mimmo, In my opinion there are two factors which need to be given priority even before judging the sound of a string. Firstly it has to be true (with no problems of intonation going up the fingerboard for stopped strings) and secondly it has to be playable: on a well-made and well set up lute, it must not catch on the nut, buzz, hit a neighbouring string, hit against the fingerboard, or cause any other extraneous noises. If a string has the potential to sound wonderful but does not meet these two criteria, then it is of no use whatsoever. Once that is established, obviously players want a string with a full-bodied and stable tone, enough sustain to make voice-leading a pleasure and the instrument to sing to the best of its ability and sufficient power to provide convincing projection and resonance. Personally I am looking for a warm and sweet tone with precise fundamentals and enough overtones to make the timbre rich and variable. Oh dear, that does sound like a holy grail doesn't it? Fingers crossed! Best Matthew On Feb 3, 2017, at 8:29, Mimmo Peruffo wrote: Thank you for the suggestion Arto. Unfortunately i cannot do it I already image how confuse the thing will be with the customers. This mean the eford to mannage twice products and honestly I do not like to add cofusion in the factory and with customers already stressed by me! I sh
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing
Thank you for the suggestion Arto. Unfortunately i cannot do it I already image how confuse the thing will be with the customers. This mean the eford to mannage twice products and honestly I do not like to add cofusion in the factory and with customers already stressed by me! I should do a choice and in fast time: is it better a more elastic string like these are (whith problems related to the fact that maybe stretch tooo much and that the sound is too bright) or it is better to switch to a less elastic plastic support with the advantage that it stretch less, the sound is darker and with less sustain? Hard to do the choice: both solutions are ok; i already tried the second option that is similar to the loaded gut strings Even Anthony Bailes suggested me the second option. Strings or not to strings? this is the question ah ah (my poor english at work) Ciao Mimmo ps which are your suggestion guys? -Messaggio originale- From: Arto Wikla Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 9:46 PM To: Mimmo Peruffo ; baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing Dear Mimmo, if you decide to make the loaded nylgut strings (CD) less elastic, I hope (and wish and urge ;-) ) that you keep also the original elastic version in your repertoire! They work exceptionally well on my Harz arclute, great stuff. And big thanks for your invaluable work! Arto On 02/02/17 14:03, Mimmo Peruffo wrote: > Well, seeing this post I have the idea to switch to these stiffer ones. > at the end of the day they are closer to those loaded strings made of gut. > I will do some samples in advance. > Mimmo To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing
Well, seeing this post I have the idea to switch to these stiffer ones. at the end of the day they are closer to those loaded strings made of gut. I will do some samples in advance. Mimmo ps: long diapason: I have not in aim to do them for very long diapasons such as chitarrrone. The diapasons are so long for plain gut, not for denser strings. I have in aim to cover the Archlutes Sellas models, whose string-dipasons has the octaves paired. Octaves are always a good indicator that it is time to have a denser material than gut or similars -Messaggio originale- From: Jarosław Lipski Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 11:08 AM To: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing No problem at all, they could be darker (even better!). Anyway it’s quite a good idea IMHO. If some like overwounds they can always use just…ocerwounds;) I really can’t see any point in imitating overwounds. Please let us know if you make a new stiffer batch. JL On 02 Feb 2017, at 10:53, Mimmo Peruffo wrote: Well, Tony Bailes mailed me that: Writing in 1629 Francis Bacon stresses that low strings should produce a bass sound: “for we see, that in one of the lower strings of a lute, there soundeth not the sound of the treble, nor any mixt sound , but onely the sound of the base.” Mimmo ps: I can made them less stretchly using a different elastomer. the problem is that they became a bit darker in the sound. Any suggestion? I am ready to start with the big batch. I am a bit worry about those that like that they are in some way still close to the wound strings -Messaggio originale- From: Martin Shepherd Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 10:26 AM To: Mimmo ; Matthew Daillie Cc: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing Dear All, If we're really interested in how lutes might have been strung historically, I think it's important to take the historical evidence (very little of it, I know) as a starting point, rather than the habits of modern players using modern strings. We have a lot of iconographic evidence (plus the evidence from measuring bridge holes) that bass strings were rather thin - so the conclusion that they were more dense than a plain gut string seems pretty well inescapable. Having said that, the tensions which modern players expect may be too high, for several reasons. One is that we are accustomed to wound strings, which are very flexible and don't work at all well if they are at too low a tension. A related problem is that modern players tend to play much further from the bridge than their historical counterparts. Another issue is that we have tended to assume roughly equal tension across all the strings, so we have not experimented much with a tapering of tension as we go down into the bass. One interesting aspect of the iconography is that strings get progressively thicker as they go down into the bass, but not as much as one would expect if the tensions were equal. To make this concrete, for a descent of an octave (maintaining equal tension) the string should double in diameter, so the 6th course on a 6c lute should be nearly twice the diameter of the 4th. On the subject of string diameters, Mimmo estimates the thinnest string which could have been made in the past as .42-.44mm. Single top strings will need to be a higher tension than the individual strings of a course, but even so it is more or less inevitable that the tension must be tapered to some degree, otherwise bass strings (and tension) would be enormous. Mimmo has recently written that equal tension is different from equal "feel", and I agree with his suggestion that (in order to maintain equal feel) thinner strings should therefore be at a higher tension than thicker ones. I have done this as a matter of instinct for many years - using a higher tension on the second course than on the third, for example. As an aside, I note that most of us have tended to use octaves at a lower tension than the fundamentals, but the string table in the Gaultier book (discovered by Andreas Schlegel), and my more recent experiments, suggest perhaps a more equal tension. As far as the characteristics of the strings is concerned, there are some apparent contradictions in the historical evidence. Many paintings give the impression that the strings were very floppy (compared to modern gut strings), with lengths of spare string dangling from the pegbox. On the other hand, one of the tests for a good string recommended by Dowland is "stiffness to the finger" (assessed before putting the string on the lute by pressing the end of the string to see how bendy it is). In terms of elasticity, Mace talks about a string stretching "an inch or two" in the winding up - suggesting a string much more elastic than almost any modern string. Then we come to another apparent contradiction on the area of modern experiment
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing
ing with lower elasticity. Trueness is paramount - if a string is even slightly false the irregular pattern of vibration will make it rattle against the frets and it will never sound well even as an open string. Just a few thoughts for you to chew on Martin On 02/02/2017 07:20, Mimmo wrote: Well, I can add a few informations There are no production problems it shelf. I had an extruder broken so I was obliged to wait the time to fix it. After that I finished the raw material. I received it a week ago. They has more amplitude in the vibration whose problem is mostly because one should compensate the lack of tension when the strings are under tension. In practice they became thinner that any wound strings. In short, if the equivalent gut by calculation is 145 I raccomand to install a 150 instead. So under tension the final gauge will be the suitable one. Yes, there is no problem to switch to a more stiffer plastic blend. The problem is that we lost a bit of brightness. Is it a good idea ? I do not know, people has the wound strings sound in comparation. Take care Mimmo Peruffo Il giorno 01 feb 2017, alle ore 23:34, Matthew Daillie ha scritto: Of the main copper-wound strings available, the fullest sounding and brightest are the Kürschner followed by the Savarez, then the Aquila Ds and lastly the Aquila DEs, which are pretty dull (and are no longer being made although several retailers still have quite large stocks available). As far as I am concerned the jury is still out on the Aquila loaded nylgut. Many of us have high hopes but there are production problems (there has only been one batch so far and many diameters are unavailable) and some strings can have considerably sideways amplitude when plucked (even causing them to catch neighbouring strings!) as well as intonation issues (but that is also true of a lot of wound strings). Best, Matthew On 01/02/2017 22:25, David Rastall wrote: It seems I am back playing Baroque lute once again, after rather a long hiatus. It’s been long enough that I have forgotten some of the points of conventional wisdom concerning stringing. I’m playing an 11c lute currently strung with silver-wound basses and Pyramid nylon mids and trebles. I’m not so much bothered by the sustain of the nylon strings, but if you folks can refresh my memory: what is the best choice of basses to get a sustain which is not downright thunky or chunky, but has shorter sustain than the silver-wounds? David R To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing
string is even slightly false the irregular pattern of vibration will make it rattle against the frets and it will never sound well even as an open string. Just a few thoughts for you to chew on Martin On 02/02/2017 07:20, Mimmo wrote: Well, I can add a few informations There are no production problems it shelf. I had an extruder broken so I was obliged to wait the time to fix it. After that I finished the raw material. I received it a week ago. They has more amplitude in the vibration whose problem is mostly because one should compensate the lack of tension when the strings are under tension. In practice they became thinner that any wound strings. In short, if the equivalent gut by calculation is 145 I raccomand to install a 150 instead. So under tension the final gauge will be the suitable one. Yes, there is no problem to switch to a more stiffer plastic blend. The problem is that we lost a bit of brightness. Is it a good idea ? I do not know, people has the wound strings sound in comparation. Take care Mimmo Peruffo Il giorno 01 feb 2017, alle ore 23:34, Matthew Daillie ha scritto: Of the main copper-wound strings available, the fullest sounding and brightest are the Kürschner followed by the Savarez, then the Aquila Ds and lastly the Aquila DEs, which are pretty dull (and are no longer being made although several retailers still have quite large stocks available). As far as I am concerned the jury is still out on the Aquila loaded nylgut. Many of us have high hopes but there are production problems (there has only been one batch so far and many diameters are unavailable) and some strings can have considerably sideways amplitude when plucked (even causing them to catch neighbouring strings!) as well as intonation issues (but that is also true of a lot of wound strings). Best, Matthew On 01/02/2017 22:25, David Rastall wrote: It seems I am back playing Baroque lute once again, after rather a long hiatus. It’s been long enough that I have forgotten some of the points of conventional wisdom concerning stringing. I’m playing an 11c lute currently strung with silver-wound basses and Pyramid nylon mids and trebles. I’m not so much bothered by the sustain of the nylon strings, but if you folks can refresh my memory: what is the best choice of basses to get a sustain which is not downright thunky or chunky, but has shorter sustain than the silver-wounds? David R To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus
[BAROQUE-LUTE] about the new sintetic loaded lute basses
Hi All, I would like to share with you the sound of these very new lute basses: https://www.facebook.com/mperuffo/videos/10211568687754149/ I am aware of course that I am not a professional luteplayer; oncemore I have not any daily practice. However, anyone can have an idea ow they perform on my baroque lute. The paired octaves fit quite well with the bass string giving the impression of a single string. All the best Mimmo Peruffo To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: [LUTE] Re: barto lute stringing - gut basses
Well Martyn, there are some other evidences, on german lutes, about the use of open wound strings. One is the Mest's lute bass strings: these bass strings are open wound on gut. anf the open wound type strings, togheter lutes, dead at the end of the 18th C., replaced by the silk core close wound ones. Another point concerne hole diameters on original lute bridges. Likes the 17th c. instruments, I have found them too much narrow for plain gut. I mean here 1,5-1.9 mm with the 13th hole. So working tensions were surely less of 2.0 Kg. By the way, an open wound 13th strings have an external gauge of 1.60 mm with an average density twice of gut. In other worlds they sound close to the modern loaded gut strings. Just a bit better. With octaves paied the sound is fantastic and omogeneous with the upper strings. This on 13 course lutes with bass rider. I am sure that it was so on d minor instrument with extended necks. There is not any reason to believe that with overspune strings at disposal they employed just guts on their basses. It work against what we know, nowday, in matter of 18th c. guitar, mandoline, harp bass string types. And in matter of bass strings for bowed instruments. If basses were of gut we must ask us what gut strings we mean here. Documents show us that 18th c gut strings were simply high twist types. No a document against. No catlines ot weighted guts. In such condition a 1.70 gut gauge of a 13 th courses on an extended neck of 1 mt of vibrating str. lenght simply do not work. Is it possible that all the other plucked instruments of that time employed wound strings while lutes not? -There is a my problem here: it is not possible for me to riassume all the considerations and documents found out in these months. So I ask you a bit of patience and wait the publication of the work: I hope that it will open an excange of opinions. Loaded strings: I must say that it is important here do not confond the loading of gut theory (that is my solution for 17th c bassess) with the loaded gut strings of nowdays. We know nothing about the old thecnology. Yes, the problem was that they were frequently false and prone to be broken. I am working arround new solutions that seem work better, like as example, to load my Venice strings; a sort of polished modern catlines. I have already made some experiments with nylgut (loaded nylgut) but I do not like the sound. Ciao Mimmo To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: [LUTE] Re: barto lute stringing
Taco, there are a lot of informations that it is not possible to expain in short here. I am going to prepare an exaustive work for the Lute Society of America Quarterly in matter of bass lute strings in the 18 th c. I hope to finish it soon. Mozart: there is a misunderstanding here: Mozart simply wrote that strings, on a violine, are all of different gauges. No more than this. Viceversa there are a lot of informations in matter of G wound strings in mid-/end 18th c. Germany (Mejer, Lholein, Quantz etc). D minor with extended neks: they are arround 100 cms or so; with this vibrating string length it is easy to show that thay employ the same 6th. 7th. 8th bass strings that will became 9th. 10th, and 11th basses. There is no matter to consider that, in the contrary of all the plucked instruments of that time (mandolino, guitarre etc) lute do not employed wonud strings. The theory of loading of gut work, in my opinion, just since end 17th c. or just a bit more. Mimmo To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
