[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: 11 or 13 (barring)
I suppose to the three hypotheses, mentioned in my previous message, I should add something about the apparent success of demi-filé, probably around the same time that swannecks became popular. There are arguments about whether the extension on swan-necked lutes had pure gut or demifilé, or wehether these lutes might have been partially strung in demi-filé (see Mimmo Peruffo), but presumably the reason that demi-filé finally caught on, around that time, while it seems to have been around for at least fifty years, might also be related to an enthusiasm for increased treble bass polarity (hypothses 2); unless the technique for loading strings had been lost, and demifilé finally won by default. Relating to a strong interpretation of hypothesis 1, (that there could be a necessary relation between a large number of courses and fan-barring), we can easilly find evidence of lutes having had a large number of courses and yet having survived with J-barring. See the amazing archiluth Archiluth / E.544 / Anonyme / VENISE / ITALIE / EUROPE / début 17e http://mediatheque.cite-musique.fr/ClientBookLineCIMU/recherche/ NoticeDetailleByID.asp?ID=0255171EIDSIM=CMIM15072 There is an X-ray of the J-barring at P.66 Cahiers 7. This lute has survived apparently in almost original form in spite of having many courses and being j-barred. However, it might well be the case that the body of this lute would have undergone less distorsion had it had fan-barring and the forces were more equally distributed on the table (weak interpretation of hypothesis 1?). Notice that the three hypotheses can coexist; it is possible that several causes contributed to this new fashion. David van Edwards suggests that J-barring was progressivley replaced by fan barring. P.59. The only lute that I have seen which has a mixed structure, is Luth / E.980.2.321 / Tieffenbrucker, Magno II / Tieffenbrucker, Magno III / VENISE / ITALIE / EUROPE / 1580-1589 http://mediatheque.cite-musique.fr/ClientBookLineCIMU/recherche/ NoticeDetailleByID.asp?ID=0244085EIDSIM=CMIM16581 The barring, however could be much later. You can see from the X-ray page 59 Cahiers 7, that the fan barring is here both on the treble and the bass side of a now straight J-bar, which has lost its curved end, which has been replaced by fanning. Are there many such examples showing a progressive change. If the Rauwolf is historically fan-barred, then the theory of a gradual change seems challenged. It is unfortunate that the LSA database does not seem to give indications about barring, and I suppose that might be because it is very difficult to be sure whether the barring is original or not. The same is true of the catalogue of the Musée de la Musique here in Paris, although the X-ray photos and some photos of the inside of tables, do allow you to see the present state of the barring. Sterling I understand that the fan barring on the 1755 Widhalm in Nuremberg (with the triple-extension after Jauck) WAS historic- original, and that is why Grant Tomlinson altered Benjamin's Widhalm from J-barring to fan-barring. It was to correct it from a historic point of view. If your 1764 Martin Brunner which is very similar to the Jauch extension, also has fan-barring, then one would suppose Widhalm might always have used such barring on his own lutes (at least with such extensions). I wonder whether his two Maler transformations (which look to be swan necked, but I might be wrong there) also have fan-barring or whether he kept the original barring, or something similar: after 1615 [?] http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/associated/database/dbdetail.php? PID=143 before 1550 [1740?] http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/associated/database/dbdetail.php? PID=144 Now, considering that barring goes together with a specific thickness distribution (j-barring thick at the edge, fan-barring thick towards the bridge) how do you go about changing one to the other without changing the table? I don't know whether GT changed both the barring and the table, or just the barring. Well this is a question for any lute-maker I suppose, rather than any lute player. Anthony Le 15 janv. 09 à 02:25, sterling price a écrit : I have a Widhalm that does have fan-barring and a soundboard carefully thicknessed as the original (assuming that the original has not been altered over the years). It also has a bass extension based on the 1764 Martin Brunner which is very similar to the Jauch extension. This pegbox, as you all know, helps with the transition of sound for the basses. This lute is much louder than my Burkholzer, but its also a bit bigger. I am still experimenting with strings, and was thinking of trying gut soon. --Sterling -- --- Had this been the case, I presume that Grant Tomlinson
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: 11 or 13
Benjamin Narvey schrieb: Dear Mathias, It's interesting you say that. I'd be curious to know what you and other people on this list think about the differences (advantages/disadvantages) between rider lutes and swan neck lutes. I think the main difference between these lute types is one of balance vs. extra resonance. Very tough call. And transportation issues...I already have some problems with my 11c on certain flights. Does anyone have anything to add on this count? I think swan necks win hands down here... Dear Benjamin, I'm not sure about that. I sometimes travelled with my swan-necked-lute with a train. And it is always not to easy to get it somewhere, as most racks in German trains are too small for nearly every luggage. Walking through many people is possibly a little bit easier with other forms of lutes as they are shorter, but who knows. With swan necked lutes basses and melody is better seperated, which might be good for later music, but for sure isn't ideal for earlier music for instance for French lute music. Also the basses are stronger and that makes live easier for any ensemble playing - as Mathias pointed out also. So it is the ideal instrument for lute concertos etc. Although the lute might be too gentle anyway ... About the disadvantage with stopped basses (courses 9-11) Mathias has written already. I actually began playing baroque lute on a borrowed 13c rider lute, but it has been so long since I've had one that I'm not sure I can still trust those initial impressions. Sadly, I've never had both types together to make a comparison. I must say that I like 11c lutes better than 13c lutes so far, but then this might be simply because these are the lutes that modern makers are getting right. Miguel has told me something about different barring of French eleven course lutes and later baroque lutes. So that might also be a difference of sound. Maybe others can say something on that. Unfortunately I also haven't been able to test that ... Best regards, Markus All best, Benjamin I'm one of the culprits. Or I was, that is. My first BL just had to be a swan-neck, it couldn't be else. It was so impressive to impress other people ^_^ Today, I'd love to sell it and get me a normal 13c bass rider lute. Swan necks don't offer proper advantages IMHO. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Markus Lutz Schulstraße 11 88422 Bad Buchau Tel 0 75 82 / 92 62 89 Fax 0 75 82 / 92 62 90 Mail mar...@gmlutz.de
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: 11 or 13
Dear Benjamin and Markus Le 14 janv. 09 à 10:49, Markus Lutz a écrit : Miguel has told me something about different barring of French eleven course lutes and later baroque lutes. So that might also be a difference of sound. Maybe others can say something on that. Unfortunately I also haven't been able to test that ... Best regards, Markus There have been discussions on the issue of barring (fan versus J- barring) on this list, but I don't think there is any automatic relation between swan-necks and fan-barring, and rider lutes with J- barring. It might be difficult to be sure, as many such lutes may have been retabled and rebarred at some time. I think there may be several theories about the reasons fro the development of fan-barring. Hypothesis 1, mechanic: Stephen Gottlieb told me that fan-barring developed simply to counteract the pulling force that additional number of strings apply to the sound-board through the bridge. Hypothesis 2, musical, increased bass: both increasing the bass courses and adopting fan barring were part of the same research into the bass register (plumbing the depths) in late German Baroque music. Removing the J-bar releases more bass resonance, possibly at the expense of some clarity. The fan barring allows the table to move almost as a piston, which could reinforce the fundamental, while the J-bar would tend to break-up the fundamental into its components waves giving richer harmonics. Wolfgang Emmerich said the following : Generally the j-bars on Renaissance lutes were used to break the bass into its treble-parts to keep the leading role especially of the chantarelle - to have an optimal balance between treble and bass. With fan-barring the bass gets stronger and accordingly treble loses in relation towards a stronger bass. But in baroque music it must have been more important to revel in chords. van Edwards : Internally, the barring structure behind the bridge was altered by these makers. Starting with an increase in the number of little treble-side fan bars, finally the characteristic J bar on the bass side of the renaissance lutes was removed and various kinds of fan-barring were introduced right across this area of the soundboard. These seem to have the effect of increasing the bass response. The main transverse bars were also made slightly smaller and more even in height, maybe with the same intention. Don't lest us forget that the thickness of the soundboard is distributed differently with both barring types: generally, I believe, with fan-barring, the soundboard is thicker towards the bridge and to the middle; while with J- barring, the soundboard is thicker on the edges and thinner to the middle. I imagine, if this is so, it could also play a role in determining the way the resonances are amplified by the movement of the soundboard. It is possible that if it is thicker to the middle, some of the more complex wave patterns might be damped, while if it is thinner in the middle, perhaps a more complex pattern can develop. Hypothesis 2 would suggest that it would be likely to find swan- necked lutes with fan barring, as both tend to reinforce the bass register. Hypothesis 1 might suggest that fan-barring would be likely on any lute with a large number of courses, be they swannecked or rider, depending on the tension at which the strings were kept. Hypothesis 3 musical, increased sustain : Bailes tells us in lute news No 81 that old lutes with mature wood (so beloved by French Baroque and even later German Baroque lutenists) give much more sustain than new lutes can hope to do (unless possibly they have their tables loaded with salts, Mimmo Peruffo). Around 1730, there could have been a penury of such lutes, if so, perhaps lute-makers attempted to discover a new way of obtaining this sustain by altering the barring. It seems that fan-barring does give greater sustain, but in some cases at the expense of clarity. Michael Bocchicchio said in relation to the question concerning the Rauwolf fan-barring Thinning the edges of a sound board and leaving the center thicker ( approx. 1.8 mm at center tapering to 1.3 at edges) does cause the sound board to act as or similar to a speaker cone. It stands to reason that fan bracing would lend itself to this type of thicknessing. With this type of thicknessing and fan bracing, the sound board resonates more like a singe plate causing a more homogeneous sustained sound with fewer partials. ---Very pleasing to the modern ear. (Mimmo Peruffo told me that he had made two 13c Baroque lutes that were identical except that one had fan barring, and the other J- barring. In the case of the fan-barring he found the basses were too free and unbalanced and out of control.) However, this does not always the case, Jakob Lindberg says that his Rauwolf has excellent sustain and clarity (but it is also an
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: 11 or 13
Dear Mathias, It's interesting you say that. I'd be curious to know what you and other people on this list think about the differences (advantages/disadvantages) between rider lutes and swan neck lutes. I think the main difference between these lute types is one of balance vs. extra resonance. Very tough call. And transportation issues...I already have some problems with my 11c on certain flights. Does anyone have anything to add on this count? I think swan necks win hands down here... I actually began playing baroque lute on a borrowed 13c rider lute, but it has been so long since I've had one that I'm not sure I can still trust those initial impressions. Sadly, I've never had both types together to make a comparison. I must say that I like 11c lutes better than 13c lutes so far, but then this might be simply because these are the lutes that modern makers are getting right. All best, Benjamin I'm one of the culprits. Or I was, that is. My first BL just had to be a swan-neck, it couldn't be else. It was so impressive to impress other people ^_^ Today, I'd love to sell it and get me a normal 13c bass rider lute. Swan necks don't offer proper advantages IMHO. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: 11 or 13
David Rastall dlu...@verizon.net schrieb: In some music I've been playing recently (Losy, Lauffensteiner) which was written for 11-c, I'm very glad to have that open B-flat available on my 13-c. It does make life a lot easier. Lauffensteiner's lute assumedly had 12 courses as evidenced by Haselmere II B 2 (p. 14. 23-24. 28. 153-6), Munich 5362 (f. 21v. 36-40v). Nevertheless, he makes use of 5 only when required by voice-leading. Which can be taken to suggest that his conception of the lute was not that of a droning bass instrument. Both the sonata and the duet in A major (both Augsburg) as well as the concerto in G minor (Brussels) even require lutes with 13 courses, but I'm suspicious they're later adaptations. The voice of dissent on that point, however, seems to be that some players prefer to play the French-styled repertoire on the lighter-sounding 11-c instrument. My voice of dissent for one would be that two additional courses change the conception of the instrument. The is lute changed into a bass instrument, kind of a theorbo. From the players I've met who have played only Baroque lute (not many, admittedly), I've never heard a complaint, no matter how hard the music was. Unfortunately, they are not exactly numerous. What IMHO makes baroque lute music difficult, indeed, is that there's so much more to the intended music than what is written. Take e. g. the Rhétorique des Dieux. Its tablatures present the skeleton of the music. To play from the Rhétorique as is would be like humming instead of singing a song. There are so many matters of taste and esprit, gestures to be recognized, ornaments to be added, voices to be led. -- Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: 11 or 13
Benjamin Narvey luthi...@gmail.com schrieb: It's interesting you say that. I'd be curious to know what you and other people on this list think about the differences (advantages/disadvantages) between rider lutes and swan neck lutes. As far as I can see, the only proper advantage of swan-necked solo lutes is that you can take the same strings for courses 6 to 8 as for courses 9 to 11, as Mimmo has pointed out. That is negligible, however, as these courses last eternally (as for my confined experience). One disadvantage clearly is that you cannot stop the courses 9 to 11 as now and then required in solo music. I think the main difference between these lute types is one of balance vs. extra resonance. Very tough call. Yes definitely. Might be good for continuo. Yet it cannot keep up with archlutes or theorbos which I prefer for that purpose at any rate. That's why they built those large German 14c theorbos, probably. And transportation issues...I already have some problems with my 11c on certain flights. Does anyone have anything to add on this count? I think swan necks win hands down here... Because of the reflexed pegbox, you meant to suggest? Well, either way you need an extra seat, it's impossible to jolt a swan-neck case (or an 11c case) into one of those modern oberhead compartments. As for my 11c, there was a friendly stewardess on my way to Prague who took it with her into the cabin compartment. And in Turkey, everyone used to know what it is without opening the case (as opposed to the German airports where it was suspiciously observed). Mathias I actually began playing baroque lute on a borrowed 13c rider lute, but it has been so long since I've had one that I'm not sure I can still trust those initial impressions. Sadly, I've never had both types together to make a comparison. I must say that I like 11c lutes better than 13c lutes so far Ben, I'll treat you to a beer next time we meet, I promise. but then this might be simply because these are the lutes that modern makers are getting right. All best, Benjamin I'm one of the culprits. Or I was, that is. My first BL just had to be a swan-neck, it couldn't be else. It was so impressive to impress other people ^_^ Today, I'd love to sell it and get me a normal 13c bass rider lute. Swan necks don't offer proper advantages IMHO. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: 11 or 13
It has to do with -percieved- difficulty rather than -actual- difficulty. People just assume that the baroque lute must be a horribly difficult and unfriendly instrument just because it has many strings. And baroque lute players -love- people to think that. Come on-admit it... I think that was a big factor in the lutes temporary demise. This kind of thinking is only holding back the lute today. Nobody cares how many strings a piano has even though it has hundreds. What did Baron say in his book?(I dont have it handy). Something about the lute in 1727 having reached a level of perfection and ease so that a child could play itI tend to agree with him. For me, after playing a 13 course for many years, I wouldn't dream of playing an instrument that didn't have an octave of open bass strings. And I felt the same way after I first started playing it. Now I am not saying that it is a super easy thing to play, but it is no harder than almost any other instrument, and it certainly doesn't deserve the reputation it has. I think the 13 course lute is a remarkable achievment the result of many centuries of progression. To continue to label it as it had been in the 18th century til now as something -so- difficult is really 'bad for business'. Sterling Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: 11 or 13 Sterling, you are right in saying that more basses make things easier. At least in some respects: You can play some of the notes with a bass and doesn't have to stop it. But as history went on, it seemed that less courses was easier for most people, else we then would have had more guitars with more than 6 courses. And even in the lute branch people tended more to instruments with less courses - like the mandora. So more basses seems to be at least ambivalent. And I say this as a person that enjoys playing on a 13-course lute (and sometimes suffers under it ...) Best regards Markus sterling price schrieb: - Original Message In fact they are easier to be played. More basses - more problems with the thumb ;-). And there is plenty of good music for it (beside French music Austrian, Bohemian, German etc.). Best regards Markus I disagree with this-I have always contended that more basses make things easier. I would much rather have open basses than fingered ones. -Sterling To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Markus Lutz Schulstraße 11 88422 Bad Buchau Tel 0 75 82 / 92 62 89 Fax 0 75 82 / 92 62 90 Mail mar...@gmlutz.de To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: 11 or 13
Hi Theo, you can play many Weiss pieces on an 11 course lute - and many of them had been intended for it. The later ones might be sometimes a little bit tricky, as the added basses give more freedom for the leading voices. But on the other side: If some guitarist can play these pieces on 6 course, why shouldn't it be impossible on an 11 course. I would never say that 11 course lutes are inferior to 13 course lutes. In fact they are easier to be played. More basses - more problems with the thumb ;-). And there is plenty of good music for it (beside French music Austrian, Bohemian, German etc.). Best regards Markus P.S.: I couldn't hardly resist to write Theo, apostle of the 11-course ;-). Tadeyev schrieb: Hi Markus, Sorry if I came on strong; wasn't my plan! I am just always feeling 'protective' of the 11 course, since most people see it as a 'less valuable' younger brother of a 13 course lute, or only interesting for French music. So every chance I have to remind people about how broad and useful the 11 course really can be I end up putting my 2 cents in :-)). Like everyone goes crazy with getting harpsichords of 5 octaves, while the majority of the literature doesn't need/require it. Kind regards, Theo To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Markus Lutz Schulstraße 11 88422 Bad Buchau Tel 0 75 82 / 92 62 89 Fax 0 75 82 / 92 62 90 Mail mar...@gmlutz.de Homepages http://www.die-soehne-edgars.de (Die Söhne Edgars) http://www.slweiss.com (Silvius Leopold Weiss)
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: 11 or 13
Swan necks for continuo seems reasonable IMHO. More omph for the bass register is the only advantage of that type as far as I can see. Mathias Markus Lutz mar...@gmlutz.de schrieb: Hi Theo, you can play many Weiss pieces on an 11 course lute - and many of them had been intended for it. The later ones might be sometimes a little bit tricky, as the added basses give more freedom for the leading voices. But on the other side: If some guitarist can play these pieces on 6 course, why shouldn't it be impossible on an 11 course. I would never say that 11 course lutes are inferior to 13 course lutes. In fact they are easier to be played. More basses - more problems with the thumb ;-). And there is plenty of good music for it (beside French music Austrian, Bohemian, German etc.). Best regards Markus P.S.: I couldn't hardly resist to write Theo, apostle of the 11-course ;-). Tadeyev schrieb: Hi Markus, Sorry if I came on strong; wasn't my plan! I am just always feeling 'protective' of the 11 course, since most people see it as a 'less valuable' younger brother of a 13 course lute, or only interesting for French music. So every chance I have to remind people about how broad and useful the 11 course really can be I end up putting my 2 cents in :-)). Like everyone goes crazy with getting harpsichords of 5 octaves, while the majority of the literature doesn't need/require it. Kind regards, Theo To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Markus Lutz Schulstraße 11 88422 Bad Buchau Tel 0 75 82 / 92 62 89 Fax 0 75 82 / 92 62 90 Mail mar...@gmlutz.de Homepages http://www.die-soehne-edgars.de (Die Söhne Edgars) http://www.slweiss.com (Silvius Leopold Weiss) -- Viele Grüße Mathias Rösel http://mathiasroesel.livejournal.com http://www.myspace.com/mathiasroesel http://de.geocities.com/mathiasroesel
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: 11 or 13
- Original Message In fact they are easier to be played. More basses - more problems with the thumb ;-). And there is plenty of good music for it (beside French music Austrian, Bohemian, German etc.). Best regards Markus I disagree with this-I have always contended that more basses make things easier. I would much rather have open basses than fingered ones. -Sterling To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
