[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: 13 course rider/swan
Personally I don't think that the size of the instrument or even close wound bas stringing can be any obstacle to prevent us from playing the solo baroque repertoire. Nigel North's Bach box set can be the best example. All 4 CDs were recorded on the swan neck Neitzert lute (after Leopold Widhalm) in 415 and 392 tuning, strung with copper close wound basses and I have the feeling that the instrument is perfectly balanced. In my opinion everything depends on the way the instrument is built and the way you play it. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 6:18 PM To: T. Diehl-Peshkur Cc: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: 13 course rider/swan For what it is worth, the recital at the Lute Society last saturday was on a swan neck instrument strung entirely with gut and played by Richard Sweeney (if my memory is correct) and it sounded wonderful, and there was no problem with over ringing bases nick gravestock Dear all, > I know this subject has been discussed before, and I have recently > followed > the interesting discussions on the d minor continuo lute > the last week. However, regarding the choice of rider vs. swan necked > instruments for solo work, I have checked the archives, but I still > have some doubts about the =8Cgeneral consensus' re: one or the other for > late > works such as Weiss, Bach and others. > A number of modern players have dropped using the 13 course swan necked > instruments (like R. Barto) to the rider type for several musical and > technical reasons. O'Dette has also chosen a rider type for his Bach works > Vol. 1 (so far at least!) and there is a general feeling that the swan > neck > variety > is more a continuo type instrument. > But my gut feeling (no pun intended!) is that the swan neck type was > primarily popular because it could use plain gut strings instead of any > overwinding > (of whatever type). I really see the smaller, circa 70cm (stopped) swan > necked instruments as really fitting that role. > To put it differently: could it be that the use of more modern stringing > has > given an impression of =8Ctoo much sustain' and other such difficulties > with the 13 course swan necked instruments? > As yet I have never had a chance to hear one entirely strung in good gut. > Any comments insights on this point by the experts among you here would be > greatly appreciated. > Cheers, > Theo > > -- > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: 13 course rider/swan
Hi-don't forget the G major suite in the London which requires the 11th course to be stopped. Thats a fun one! Sterling - Original Message From: Jerzy Zak <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Barocklautenliste Lutelist' Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 5:30:22 AM Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: 13 course rider/swan For a long time I had only the 11-c lute and played everything on it, including anything by Weiss, even Kropfgans, Hagen (Concerto!) and Kohaut. However not without a pain in some places ;-)) As for dilema between 'rider' or 'swan', the one or two notes stopped on the 9th or 10th course, what happens once or twice in a whole Weiss (I don't remember), you cen always play an 8ve higher. I try to remember that the amount of Music in music is the thing which matters. The rest is technology. Jurek _ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: 13 course rider/swan
For a long time I had only the 11-c lute and played everything on it, including anything by Weiss, even Kropfgans, Hagen (Concerto!) and Kohaut. However not without a pain in some places ;-)) As for dilema between 'rider' or 'swan', the one or two notes stopped on the 9th or 10th course, what happens once or twice in a whole Weiss (I don't remember), you cen always play an 8ve higher. I try to remember that the amount of Music in music is the thing which matters. The rest is technology. Jurek _ On 2007-11-30, at 09:52, T. Diehl-Peshkur wrote: Hello Sterling, Sorry it is, as written by the editors and born out of the texts of the Peters Edition. Please check D. A. Smith's as well as Crawford's forwards to the complete edition. D. A. Smith claimed ALL of London was for 11 course; however Crawford has (for good reason) not translated that part of Alton's German forward, because that is incorrect. A second scribe added a number of lower bass notes in a different handwriting to much of the existing 11 course music; this is even visible for us mere mortals in the distinct slant of the added 5's and 6's in the music. Only a number of these pieces have these lower courses written down in the original scribe's handwriting. Compare for instance in Weiss Quelle: London/Tabulatur I 43 verso measure 26, look at the way the =8C4' is written; idem 42 recto measure 41. Then look at the Courante, 43 recto, measures 69, 70, 71, 72 and note the extreme right sided slant- unlike all the other notes on both pages, which are almost straight or slanting leftwards. These are typical examples.. Long live the 11 course lute- which has a massive library of literature for it- even Weiss :-) ! Theo From: sterling price <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 00:03:29 -0800 (PST) To: "T. Diehl-Peshkur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: 13 course rider/swan - Original Message -Half of Weiss' output is for 11 course lute (the entire London MS, with only a few exceptions). Now I -know- that is not true. And a good deal of the London MS is for 13 course. Not sure of the exact numbers though. Sterling ___ _ Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/ -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: 13 course rider/swan
Hello Sterling, Sorry it is, as written by the editors and born out of the texts of the Peters Edition. Please check D. A. Smith's as well as Crawford's forwards to the complete edition. D. A. Smith claimed ALL of London was for 11 course; however Crawford has (for good reason) not translated that part of Alton's German forward, because that is incorrect. A second scribe added a number of lower bass notes in a different handwriting to much of the existing 11 course music; this is even visible for us mere mortals in the distinct slant of the added 5's and 6's in the music. Only a number of these pieces have these lower courses written down in the original scribe's handwriting. Compare for instance in Weiss Quelle: London/Tabulatur I 43 verso measure 26, look at the way the =8C4' is written; idem 42 recto measure 41. Then look at the Courante, 43 recto, measures 69, 70, 71, 72 and note the extreme right sided slant- unlike all the other notes on both pages, which are almost straight or slanting leftwards. These are typical examples.. Long live the 11 course lute- which has a massive library of literature for it- even Weiss :-) ! Theo From: sterling price <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 00:03:29 -0800 (PST) To: "T. Diehl-Peshkur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: 13 course rider/swan - Original Message -Half of Weiss' output is for 11 course lute (the entire London MS, with only a few exceptions). Now I -know- that is not true. And a good deal of the London MS is for 13 course. Not sure of the exact numbers though. Sterling Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/ -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: 13 course rider/swan
- Original Message -Half of Weiss' output is for 11 course lute (the entire London MS, with only a few exceptions). Now I -know- that is not true. And a good deal of the London MS is for 13 course. Not sure of the exact numbers though. Sterling Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: 13 course rider/swan
Sure, understood- however I don't think this is a big issue. -Half of Weiss' output is for 11 course lute (the entire London MS, with only a few exceptions). -There are only less than a handful of Scarlatti sonatas with a high g''' written in them, yet this is not a reason to buy only a harpsichord like that (most don't have a high g''') -Or Bach: the highest note he uses is an e'', and the lowest a GG. But to ignore the C. Zell double manual in Hamburg without the e''' would be a great pity indeed. But if you want only one instrument for ALL of Weiss, then I would agree with you... Theo From: Rob <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 19:16:55 - To: Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: 13 course rider/swan One obvious reason for choosing a rider instead of a swan is that the London ms requires notes to be fingered below the eighth or ninth course - possible on a rider, not generally so on a swan. www.rmguitar.info To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: 13 course rider/swan
Thanks Mathias, Thanks for the info. So far this confirms my feelings soundwise/gutwise. I just imagine that the long, overspun strings on such an instrument would just give too much energy, and require a tremendous amount of attention to damping all the time when used in solo works. Perhaps that is why the swan neck has been abandoned by a number of profi players?? Someone here mentioned that swan necks were already in use before Weiss' time, which made me think that plain gut was the primary factor behind the longer bass strings. If I understood correctly, there are even other sources quoted here and there that rarely even mention overspun strings long after their inventionSets you thinking. I really feel that one of the great luxuries of being an amateur is that you can play on gut all of the time, and enjoy such a beautiful sound. I could never go back to nylon again, but then I don't have to play in draughty halls or tropical climates like the professionals do. Theo From: Mathias R=F6sel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: 29 Nov 2007 19:02 GMT To: "T. Diehl-Peshkur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] 13 course rider/swan I'm not an expert, but I've recently strung my swan neck basses with gut (6th through 13th). The results in terms of sound and sustain are better than I had expected. Not much sustain in the basses. Rather, there is an impulse, and then the tone quickly fades, which is what I wanted. As for its superior sound quality, I will always prefer gut, provided I can afford it. Since gut in the basses will probably last forever (or at least for two or three years), it's the material of choice. My two cents. -- Mathias "T. Diehl-Peshkur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: > Dear all, > I know this subject has been discussed before, and I have recently followed > the interesting discussions on the d minor continuo lute > the last week. However, regarding the choice of rider vs. swan necked > instruments for solo work, I have checked the archives, but I still > have some doubts about the =8Cgeneral consensus' re: one or the other for late > works such as Weiss, Bach and others. > A number of modern players have dropped using the 13 course swan necked > instruments (like R. Barto) to the rider type for several musical and > technical reasons. O'Dette has also chosen a rider type for his Bach works > Vol. 1 (so far at least!) and there is a general feeling that the swan neck > variety > is more a continuo type instrument. > But my gut feeling (no pun intended!) is that the swan neck type was > primarily popular because it could use plain gut strings instead of any > overwinding > (of whatever type). I really see the smaller, circa 70cm (stopped) swan > necked instruments as really fitting that role. > To put it differently: could it be that the use of more modern stringing has > given an impression of =8Ctoo much sustain' and other such difficulties > with the 13 course swan necked instruments? > As yet I have never had a chance to hear one entirely strung in good gut. > Any comments insights on this point by the experts among you here would be > greatly appreciated. > Cheers, > Theo -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: 13 course rider/swan
VERY interesting. Are your basses single strung and if not, what did you use for the octaves? I have avoided Swan Necks for the sustain issue but this could be a good solution that also boosts volume. I really do enjoy the sound of the gut basses on my archlute and they seem to balance OK with the nylgut on the upper courses. DS On Thursday, November 29, 2007, at 02:04PM, "Mathias Rösel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >I'm not an expert, but I've recently strung my swan neck basses with gut >(6th through 13th). The results in terms of sound and sustain are better >than I had expected. Not much sustain in the basses. Rather, there is an >impulse, and then the tone quickly fades, which is what I wanted. As for >its superior sound quality, I will always prefer gut, provided I can >afford it. Since gut in the basses will probably last forever (or at >least for two or three years), it's the material of choice. My two >cents. >-- >Mathias > > >"T. Diehl-Peshkur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: >> Dear all, >> I know this subject has been discussed before, and I have recently followed >> the interesting discussions on the d minor continuo lute >> the last week. However, regarding the choice of rider vs. swan necked >> instruments for solo work, I have checked the archives, but I still >> have some doubts about the =8Cgeneral consensus' re: one or the other for >> late >> works such as Weiss, Bach and others. >> A number of modern players have dropped using the 13 course swan necked >> instruments (like R. Barto) to the rider type for several musical and >> technical reasons. O'Dette has also chosen a rider type for his Bach works >> Vol. 1 (so far at least!) and there is a general feeling that the swan neck >> variety >> is more a continuo type instrument. >> But my gut feeling (no pun intended!) is that the swan neck type was >> primarily popular because it could use plain gut strings instead of any >> overwinding >> (of whatever type). I really see the smaller, circa 70cm (stopped) swan >> necked instruments as really fitting that role. >> To put it differently: could it be that the use of more modern stringing has >> given an impression of =8Ctoo much sustain' and other such difficulties >> with the 13 course swan necked instruments? >> As yet I have never had a chance to hear one entirely strung in good gut
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: 13 course rider/swan
I'm not an expert, but I've recently strung my swan neck basses with gut (6th through 13th). The results in terms of sound and sustain are better than I had expected. Not much sustain in the basses. Rather, there is an impulse, and then the tone quickly fades, which is what I wanted. As for its superior sound quality, I will always prefer gut, provided I can afford it. Since gut in the basses will probably last forever (or at least for two or three years), it's the material of choice. My two cents. -- Mathias "T. Diehl-Peshkur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: > Dear all, > I know this subject has been discussed before, and I have recently followed > the interesting discussions on the d minor continuo lute > the last week. However, regarding the choice of rider vs. swan necked > instruments for solo work, I have checked the archives, but I still > have some doubts about the =8Cgeneral consensus' re: one or the other for late > works such as Weiss, Bach and others. > A number of modern players have dropped using the 13 course swan necked > instruments (like R. Barto) to the rider type for several musical and > technical reasons. O'Dette has also chosen a rider type for his Bach works > Vol. 1 (so far at least!) and there is a general feeling that the swan neck > variety > is more a continuo type instrument. > But my gut feeling (no pun intended!) is that the swan neck type was > primarily popular because it could use plain gut strings instead of any > overwinding > (of whatever type). I really see the smaller, circa 70cm (stopped) swan > necked instruments as really fitting that role. > To put it differently: could it be that the use of more modern stringing has > given an impression of =8Ctoo much sustain' and other such difficulties > with the 13 course swan necked instruments? > As yet I have never had a chance to hear one entirely strung in good gut. > Any comments insights on this point by the experts among you here would be > greatly appreciated. > Cheers, > Theo To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
