[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Gaultier chaconne timing
"Martyn Hodgson" schrieb: >Bear in mind that at the time of Old Gautier, the dance was still very >much influenced by the original Italian ciaccona My textbooks have it that Spanish poet Torres Naharro was the first to call a peasant's song by the name Chacota in 1517. As a dance, the dance was mentioned in S. Aguado's play El Platillo in 1599, as well as by Cervantes and Lope de Vega. The chaconne was spread from Spain to Italy and other countries. As early as 1560, L. Panciatichi links the chaconne to the sarabanda, a connection that was to still last as late as 1694 when the Dictionnaire de l'Académie Française defined the chaconne as "Espèce de sarabande par couplets avec le mesme refrain". I take this to bear on metre and rhythm, not tempo (see below). >which was indeed fast >and sort of syncopated (best sources for seeing the transitional styles >are possibly Corbetta's [and others] guitar chaconnes). Only in the >later 17th C did the form become significantly slower and more uniform >until by the 18th we have the very slow form. It is generally agreed that dances were played slower during the 17th century when dancers would use use more and more elaborate steps and jumps (we had this for the galliard, recently). I'm curious, though, as for sources of explicitly fast tempo of the chaconne. Mind you, it was connected to simple songs of common people (see Cervantes, La Illustre Fregona). >There is still a fashion >to play these early forms as if they were like the Bach Dm violin >chaconne... And there's still a fashion to ignore evidence. Saizenay is dated as late as 1699. Mr Saizenay meticulously pinned down separee strokes the way he would play it. Playing the piece Old Gaultier's way isn't necessarily wrong. It's pure guesswork, though, as long as there's no evidence that is older than Saizenay. -- Best, Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Gaultier chaconne timing
Bear in mind that at the time of Old Gautier, the dance was still very much influenced by the original Italian ciaccona which was indeed fast and sort of syncopated (best sources for seeing the transitional styles are possibly Corbetta's [and others] guitar chaconnes). Only in the later 17th C did the form become significantly slower and more uniform until by the 18th we have the very slow form. There is still a fashion to play these early forms as if they were like the Bach Dm violin chaconne... MH ri, 4/9/09, theoj89...@aol.com wrote: From: theoj89...@aol.com Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Gaultier chaconne timing To: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, 4 September, 2009, 2:50 PM All: I was learning a Vieux Gaultier Chaconne (CRNS ed. no. 49, p.60). It is written in the timing of 3 beats per measure, and I was playing rather even. I then heard the recording by Claire Antonini (Les Luthistes Francais au XVIIeme siecle, Societe Francaise de Luth, 2007; www.sf-luth.org) and she performs the piece with a fair bit of 'bounce' or 'dotted eight-sixteenth' rhythm. Are Chaconnes from this time & place best interpreted in that manner? ..a naive question from an enthusiast (but not a musicologist). Thanks ted jordan USA -- To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Gaultier chaconne timing
That's something of her own choice, IMHO, to take this piece rather brisk. Quite opposed to what the rhythm suggests, viz. sarabande in terms of rhythm, tempo and gesture. Obviously, she decided to go sporting some of her virtuosity, as the last couple, which she improvised on her own, shows in particular. Be that as it may, what I find irritating is that she (admittedly, like some others, too) ignores the direction of separee strokes. The only evidence for this piece is Saizenay p. 20. There, the final clause has three times | |. |\ | | | | | || || || || |-d---r--| || |-\--| || |-a--| || |-/--| || | a | and another three times | |. |\ | | | | | || || || || |-d---r--| || |-/--| || |-a--| || |-/--| || | a | Yet she prefers to indiscriminately play each time | |\ | | | | || || || || |-d---r--| || || || |---a| || || || | a | Mathias schrieb: > All: > I was learning a Vieux Gaultier Chaconne (CRNS ed. no. 49, p.60). It is > written in the timing of 3 beats per measure, and I was playing rather even. > I then heard the recording by Claire Antonini (Les Luthistes Francais au > XVIIeme siecle, Societe Francaise de Luth, 2007; www.sf-luth.org) and she > performs the piece with a fair bit of 'bounce' or 'dotted eight-sixteenth' > rhythm. Are Chaconnes from this time & place best interpreted in that manner? > > > > > > > > > ..a naive question from an enthusiast (but not a musicologist). > > > > > Thanks > > > > > ted jordan > > USA > > -- > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > -- Viele Grüße Mathias Rösel http://mathiasroesel.livejournal.com http://www.myspace.com/mathiasroesel
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Gaultier chaconne timing
IMNHO all chaconnes 'gotta have swing'. RT - Original Message - From: To: Sent: Friday, September 04, 2009 9:50 AM Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Gaultier chaconne timing All: I was learning a Vieux Gaultier Chaconne (CRNS ed. no. 49, p.60). It is written in the timing of 3 beats per measure, and I was playing rather even. I then heard the recording by Claire Antonini (Les Luthistes Francais au XVIIeme siecle, Societe Francaise de Luth, 2007; www.sf-luth.org) and she performs the piece with a fair bit of 'bounce' or 'dotted eight-sixteenth' rhythm. Are Chaconnes from this time & place best interpreted in that manner? ..a naive question from an enthusiast (but not a musicologist). Thanks ted jordan USA -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
