[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Stringing
Von Radolt (1701) clearly indicates octaves on the 6th and, of course, lower. Mouton's tablatures also. MH T. Diehl-Peshkur [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello collective :-) Just a short question: is it clear form the 11 course instruments that the 6th course was always 8' + 4' strung? Would like to make mine unison, but am not sure of the original examples... Theo -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html - Yahoo! Answers - Get better answers from someone who knows. Tryit now. --
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Stringing
It is easy enough to just pluck the fundamental with the index finger in those passages. Sterling --- Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Which would some passages in Hagen in the wrong octave. So I wouldn't say all. RT All baroque lutes, to my knowledge, were strung with octaves at the 6th course. I do not understand what you mean, by 8'+4. ed At 11:31 AM 12/16/2007 +0100, T. Diehl-Peshkur wrote: Hello collective :-) Just a short question: is it clear form the 11 course instruments that the 6th course was always 8' + 4' strung? Would like to make mine unison, but am not sure of the original examples... Theo -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.17.2/1185 - Release Date: 12/15/2007 12:00 PM Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202 Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Stringing
For me it wasn't. I've done away with the octave on my 6th in 1988, and mever missed it. RT From: sterling price [EMAIL PROTECTED] It is easy enough to just pluck the fundamental with the index finger in those passages. Sterling --- Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Which would some passages in Hagen in the wrong octave. So I wouldn't say all. RT All baroque lutes, to my knowledge, were strung with octaves at the 6th course. I do not understand what you mean, by 8'+4. ed At 11:31 AM 12/16/2007 +0100, T. Diehl-Peshkur wrote: Hello collective :-) Just a short question: is it clear form the 11 course instruments that the 6th course was always 8' + 4' strung? Would like to make mine unison, but am not sure of the original examples... Theo -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.17.2/1185 - Release Date: 12/15/2007 12:00 PM Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202 Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Stringing
8' + 4' is taken from harpsichord/organ terminology; I thought it was commonplace usage..8' simply means fundamental, 4' the octave (string or pipe, whatever.) It is used often in organological texts and books as well in the description of instrument pitches. Theo From: Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 08:06:05 -0600 To: T. Diehl-Peshkur [EMAIL PROTECTED], baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Stringing All baroque lutes, to my knowledge, were strung with octaves at the 6th course. I do not understand what you mean, by 8'+4. ed At 11:31 AM 12/16/2007 +0100, T. Diehl-Peshkur wrote: Hello collective :-) Just a short question: is it clear form the 11 course instruments that the 6th course was always 8' + 4' strung? Would like to make mine unison, but am not sure of the original examples... Theo -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.17.2/1185 - Release Date: 12/15/2007 12:00 PM Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202 --
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Stringing
Sterling and Roman, Those passages in Hagen in which a melodic line is passed from the 5th to the 6th course sometimes consist of just a note or two on the 6th course. At a slow tempo, one may be able to alter his or her technique so that just the lower string of the course sounds. When the notes happen rapidly, however, it is extremely difficult to aim so as to not hit the upper string. At a quick tempo, the very fact that pitches in the wrong octave appear in the middle of an otherwise flowing melodic line can be disconcerting. In the sonatas, Straube, too, makes use of the 6th course as a component of a top-line melody. Even more bothersome are the places in which he uses the 6th course as a middle voice in harmonies to support a very low melody on the (unison) 4th or 5th courses. Since one is also occupied playing a bass note, it is phenomenally difficult to play just the single string on the 6th course. When the middle voice suddenly crosses the low melody, it is extremely obvious and unpleasant! This seems to support the theory that some folks used unisons on the 6th. On the other hand, Straube, Weiss and Hagen sometime use a bass course as a middle voice. This too would result in the middle voice jumping to the top. No arguement here that those are octave strung. Chris --- sterling price [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It is easy enough to just pluck the fundamental with the index finger in those passages. Sterling --- Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Which would some passages in Hagen in the wrong octave. So I wouldn't say all. RT All baroque lutes, to my knowledge, were strung with octaves at the 6th course. I do not understand what you mean, by 8'+4. ed At 11:31 AM 12/16/2007 +0100, T. Diehl-Peshkur wrote: Hello collective :-) Just a short question: is it clear form the 11 course instruments that the 6th course was always 8' + 4' strung? Would like to make mine unison, but am not sure of the original examples... Theo -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.17.2/1185 - Release Date: 12/15/2007 12:00 PM Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202 Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Stringing
You've beat me to the Straube argument. RT - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sterling price [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED]; T. Diehl-Peshkur [EMAIL PROTECTED]; baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 10:33 AM Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Stringing Sterling and Roman, Those passages in Hagen in which a melodic line is passed from the 5th to the 6th course sometimes consist of just a note or two on the 6th course. At a slow tempo, one may be able to alter his or her technique so that just the lower string of the course sounds. When the notes happen rapidly, however, it is extremely difficult to aim so as to not hit the upper string. At a quick tempo, the very fact that pitches in the wrong octave appear in the middle of an otherwise flowing melodic line can be disconcerting. In the sonatas, Straube, too, makes use of the 6th course as a component of a top-line melody. Even more bothersome are the places in which he uses the 6th course as a middle voice in harmonies to support a very low melody on the (unison) 4th or 5th courses. Since one is also occupied playing a bass note, it is phenomenally difficult to play just the single string on the 6th course. When the middle voice suddenly crosses the low melody, it is extremely obvious and unpleasant! This seems to support the theory that some folks used unisons on the 6th. On the other hand, Straube, Weiss and Hagen sometime use a bass course as a middle voice. This too would result in the middle voice jumping to the top. No arguement here that those are octave strung. Chris --- sterling price [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It is easy enough to just pluck the fundamental with the index finger in those passages. Sterling --- Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Which would some passages in Hagen in the wrong octave. So I wouldn't say all. RT All baroque lutes, to my knowledge, were strung with octaves at the 6th course. I do not understand what you mean, by 8'+4. ed At 11:31 AM 12/16/2007 +0100, T. Diehl-Peshkur wrote: Hello collective :-) Just a short question: is it clear form the 11 course instruments that the 6th course was always 8' + 4' strung? Would like to make mine unison, but am not sure of the original examples... Theo -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.17.2/1185 - Release Date: 12/15/2007 12:00 PM Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202 Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Stringing
Perhaps a slight danger of applying our modern preconceptions. As far as I am aware, the only historical written and iconographical evidence points to octaves on the 6th - perhaps you know otherwise? MH [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sterling and Roman, Those passages in Hagen in which a melodic line is passed from the 5th to the 6th course sometimes consist of just a note or two on the 6th course. At a slow tempo, one may be able to alter his or her technique so that just the lower string of the course sounds. When the notes happen rapidly, however, it is extremely difficult to aim so as to not hit the upper string. At a quick tempo, the very fact that pitches in the wrong octave appear in the middle of an otherwise flowing melodic line can be disconcerting. In the sonatas, Straube, too, makes use of the 6th course as a component of a top-line melody. Even more bothersome are the places in which he uses the 6th course as a middle voice in harmonies to support a very low melody on the (unison) 4th or 5th courses. Since one is also occupied playing a bass note, it is phenomenally difficult to play just the single string on the 6th course. When the middle voice suddenly crosses the low melody, it is extremely obvious and unpleasant! This seems to support the theory that some folks used unisons on the 6th. On the other hand, Straube, Weiss and Hagen sometime use a bass course as a middle voice. This too would result in the middle voice jumping to the top. No arguement here that those are octave strung. Chris --- sterling price wrote: It is easy enough to just pluck the fundamental with the index finger in those passages. Sterling --- Roman Turovsky wrote: Which would some passages in Hagen in the wrong octave. So I wouldn't say all. RT All baroque lutes, to my knowledge, were strung with octaves at the 6th course. I do not understand what you mean, by 8'+4. ed At 11:31 AM 12/16/2007 +0100, T. Diehl-Peshkur wrote: Hello collective :-) Just a short question: is it clear form the 11 course instruments that the 6th course was always 8' + 4' strung? Would like to make mine unison, but am not sure of the original examples... Theo -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.17.2/1185 - Release Date: 12/15/2007 12:00 PM Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202 Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html - Sent from Yahoo! #45; a smarter inbox. --
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Stringing
..as Duke Ellington put it; if it sounds good, it is good. I, for one who only play post-baroque era lute music, think unison 6th course sounds just fine. It's used often enough as a melody string to bother with fumbling around picking half a course. Easier to add in a 3rd course when I feel an urgency for that octave...(uh, never). Dale - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; sterling price [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED]; T. Diehl-Peshkur [EMAIL PROTECTED]; baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 11:03 AM Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Stringing Perhaps a slight danger of applying our modern preconceptions. As far as I am aware, the only historical written and iconographical evidence points to octaves on the 6th - perhaps you know otherwise? MH [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sterling and Roman, Those passages in Hagen in which a melodic line is passed from the 5th to the 6th course sometimes consist of just a note or two on the 6th course. At a slow tempo, one may be able to alter his or her technique so that just the lower string of the course sounds. When the notes happen rapidly, however, it is extremely difficult to aim so as to not hit the upper string. At a quick tempo, the very fact that pitches in the wrong octave appear in the middle of an otherwise flowing melodic line can be disconcerting. In the sonatas, Straube, too, makes use of the 6th course as a component of a top-line melody. Even more bothersome are the places in which he uses the 6th course as a middle voice in harmonies to support a very low melody on the (unison) 4th or 5th courses. Since one is also occupied playing a bass note, it is phenomenally difficult to play just the single string on the 6th course. When the middle voice suddenly crosses the low melody, it is extremely obvious and unpleasant! This seems to support the theory that some folks used unisons on the 6th. On the other hand, Straube, Weiss and Hagen sometime use a bass course as a middle voice. This too would result in the middle voice jumping to the top. No arguement here that those are octave strung. Chris --- sterling price wrote: It is easy enough to just pluck the fundamental with the index finger in those passages. Sterling --- Roman Turovsky wrote: Which would some passages in Hagen in the wrong octave. So I wouldn't say all. RT All baroque lutes, to my knowledge, were strung with octaves at the 6th course. I do not understand what you mean, by 8'+4. ed At 11:31 AM 12/16/2007 +0100, T. Diehl-Peshkur wrote: Hello collective :-) Just a short question: is it clear form the 11 course instruments that the 6th course was always 8' + 4' strung? Would like to make mine unison, but am not sure of the original examples... Theo -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.17.2/1185 - Release Date: 12/15/2007 12:00 PM Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202 Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html - Sent from Yahoo! #45; a smarter inbox. --
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: stringing
On Oct 5, 2007, at 5:55 PM, Edward Martin wrote: It is not possible, if you would like to have a decent sound. If you use a 0.30 nylon string (if you could find one that small!), it might work, but it would sound terrible!! At 67 cm, the pitch for the treble string should be E, at 440. I have tuned my 66.5 cm 10-course in G @ A= 440 on occasion before. I used a Pyramid 0425 for the chanterelle. It worked fine that way, but the sound wasn't the deep baritone-lute sound that my 10-course gets when tuned in F @ A=440. Just that one-step difference between F and G makes a world of difference. Seems to me that 67 cm is a bit long for G tuning @440, but you never know until you try! Does Pyramid do a size smaller than 0425? Even with new materials, we seem to want to try to increase the limits of the pitches for the upper registers for lutes; when we string them appropriately, and at the pitch at which they are intended, the results are much better than pushing those upper limits. Actually I find that I'm going for lower and lower pitch these days, on larger lutes. I hardly play my smaller instruments any more. David R [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: stringing
It is not possible, if you would like to have a decent sound. If you use a 0.30 nylon string (if you could find one that small!), it might work, but it would sound terrible!! At 67 cm, the pitch for the treble string should be E, at 440. Even with new materials, we seem to want to try to increase the limits of the pitches for the upper registers for lutes; when we string them appropriately, and at the pitch at which they are intended, the results are much better than pushing those upper limits. ed At 03:31 PM 10/5/2007 -0400, Roland Hayes wrote: Is it possible to have the first course at g (440) with a string length of 67cm? ( what material?) Roland Hayes Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: stringing
Roland, On 10/5/2007, Roland Hayes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is it possible to have the first course at g (440) with a string length of = 67cm? ( what material?) Roland Hayes Let us calculate. (My 3 calculators should give the same results http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/mus/Calcs/wwwscalc.html http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/mus/NewScalc/ http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/mus/Calcs/mc.html ) first course at g (440) with a string length of 67cm gives in nylon 0.4 gives 3.534 Kg, very useful in nylon 0.45 gives 4.473 Kg, is possible gut or nylgut 0.4 gives 4.51 Kg, works etc... All the best, Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
