[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: a very basic question
The comma is in baroque lute tablatures is a French ornament, and the French did not cal it an appogiatura, but a tremblement (Gautier ca. 1670, Gaultier ca. 1672, Gallot, 1684). Calling it an appogiatura confuses the issue. To the French it's a trill, not an appogiatura. Regarding how many times one executes the movement, the following is from Gaultier's ca. 1672 preface: "When one puts a comma after a letter, that signifies that one must pull off the string with a finger of the left hand; You should do once when there is only an eighth note on the letter, twice when there is a quarter note, and several times when there is a dotted quarter, while making the trill (tremblement) until the conclusion of the termination (cadence)* that one will find marked." *This is the two-note suffix to the trill. They may begin either from the upper note or the lower note and use one or two fingers of the right hand. The ones beginning on the upper note are usually notated with a diagonal line joining the two letters in the tablature indicating that those two letters are to be played with one finger of the right hand, usually the index. The resolution of the cadence is played with the middle finger of the right hand. The above quote is taken from my recent article "Performance Practice Technique for the French Baroque Lute: An Examination of Introductory Avertissements from Seventeenth Century Sources" (JLSA volume 36). Best, Jorge Torres On Aug 20, 2008, at 10:04 AM, Stephen Arndt wrote: Does the length of an ornamented note make a difference? I have noticed on recordings that eighth notes and quarter notes tend to have an appogiatura, whereas dotted quarter notes tend to have a trill. -Original Message- From: Markus Lutz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Aug 20, 2008 8:49 AM To: baroque lute list Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: a very basic question In fact in baroque times it seemed to be the rule to play an appogiatura as long or longer than half of the note. In a 3/4 measure an appogiatura on an dotted minim should even last for two quarters (2 thirds of the note). But very often in tablature appogiaturas are the only ornaments, meaning also trills ... Weiss for instance uses nearly solely this sign also for trills. If you look at Quantz you also see, that not only ornamented notes can be ornamented, but also nearly every other note - with a great liberty (sometimes in his examples the melody can hardly be reckognized ;-) ). So I think it is mainly a matter of (good) taste, when and how often to trill notes (for sure it can be annoying if that is used too often)). Best regards Markus Dale Young schrieb: C.P.E. Bach wrote that in the appogiatura, the dissonance should be held AT LEAST half the value of the written note. Most preformers cheat on this, making these "graces" sound more like annoying speach impediments. Even more annoying, I also hear single comas played as trills. We all need to listen to good keyboard interpretations of music from our time period and geographical region of choice. There are a lot of good keyboard players. Not so many lutenists. So many players interpret the comma ornament as an appogiatura in a measured way. If this is correct, why didn't the composer just write a note? Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Markus Lutz Schulstraße 11 88422 Bad Buchau Tel 0 75 82 / 92 62 89 Fax 0 75 82 / 92 62 90 Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Homepages http://www.die-soehne-edgars.de (Die Söhne Edgars) http://www.slweiss.com (Silvius Leopold Weiss) Jorge Torres Associate Professor of Music 237 Williams Center Lafayette College Easton, PA 18042 (610)330-5365 [EMAIL PROTECTED] :
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: a very basic question
That what Stephen Stubbs advocates, although my own preference is for appogiatura even on long notes. RT From: "Stephen Arndt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Does the length of an ornamented note make a difference? I have noticed on recordings that eighth notes and quarter notes tend to have an appogiatura, whereas dotted quarter notes tend to have a trill. From: Markus Lutz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> In fact in baroque times it seemed to be the rule to play an appogiatura as long or longer than half of the note. In a 3/4 measure an appogiatura on an dotted minim should even last for two quarters (2 thirds of the note). But very often in tablature appogiaturas are the only ornaments, meaning also trills ... Weiss for instance uses nearly solely this sign also for trills. If you look at Quantz you also see, that not only ornamented notes can be ornamented, but also nearly every other note - with a great liberty (sometimes in his examples the melody can hardly be reckognized ;-) ). So I think it is mainly a matter of (good) taste, when and how often to trill notes (for sure it can be annoying if that is used too often)). Best regards Markus Dale Young schrieb: C.P.E. Bach wrote that in the appogiatura, the dissonance should be held AT LEAST half the value of the written note. Most preformers cheat on this, making these "graces" sound more like annoying speach impediments. Even more annoying, I also hear single comas played as trills. We all need to listen to good keyboard interpretations of music from our time period and geographical region of choice. There are a lot of good keyboard players. Not so many lutenists. So many players interpret the comma ornament as an appogiatura in a measured way. If this is correct, why didn't the composer just write a note? Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Markus Lutz Schulstraße 11 88422 Bad Buchau Tel 0 75 82 / 92 62 89 Fax 0 75 82 / 92 62 90 Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Homepages http://www.die-soehne-edgars.de (Die Söhne Edgars) http://www.slweiss.com (Silvius Leopold Weiss) __ D O T E A S Y - "Join the web hosting revolution!" http://www.doteasy.com
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: a very basic question
Does the length of an ornamented note make a difference? I have noticed on recordings that eighth notes and quarter notes tend to have an appogiatura, whereas dotted quarter notes tend to have a trill. -Original Message- >From: Markus Lutz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Sent: Aug 20, 2008 8:49 AM >To: baroque lute list >Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: a very basic question > >In fact in baroque times it seemed to be the rule to play an appogiatura >as long or longer than half of the note. In a 3/4 measure an appogiatura >on an dotted minim should even last for two quarters (2 thirds of the note). > >But very often in tablature appogiaturas are the only ornaments, >meaning also trills ... >Weiss for instance uses nearly solely this sign also for trills. > >If you look at Quantz you also see, that not only ornamented notes can >be ornamented, but also nearly every other note - with a great liberty >(sometimes in his examples the melody can hardly be reckognized ;-) ). > >So I think it is mainly a matter of (good) taste, when and how often to >trill notes (for sure it can be annoying if that is used too often)). > >Best regards >Markus > >Dale Young schrieb: >> C.P.E. Bach wrote that in the appogiatura, the dissonance should be >> held AT LEAST half the value of the written note. Most preformers cheat >> on this, making these "graces" sound more like annoying speach >> impediments. Even more annoying, I also hear single comas played as >> trills. We all need to listen to good keyboard interpretations of music >> from our time period and geographical region of choice. There are a lot >> of good keyboard players. Not so many lutenists. >> >> >>> So many players interpret the comma ornament as an appogiatura in a >>> measured way. If this is correct, why didn't the composer just write >>> a note? >>> >>> Ed Durbrow >>> Saitama, Japan >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> To get on or off this list see list information at >>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>> >> >> > > >-- > >Markus Lutz >Schulstraße 11 > >88422 Bad Buchau > >Tel 0 75 82 / 92 62 89 >Fax 0 75 82 / 92 62 90 >Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Homepages >http://www.die-soehne-edgars.de (Die Söhne Edgars) >http://www.slweiss.com (Silvius Leopold Weiss) > >
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: a very basic question
In fact in baroque times it seemed to be the rule to play an appogiatura as long or longer than half of the note. In a 3/4 measure an appogiatura on an dotted minim should even last for two quarters (2 thirds of the note). But very often in tablature appogiaturas are the only ornaments, meaning also trills ... Weiss for instance uses nearly solely this sign also for trills. If you look at Quantz you also see, that not only ornamented notes can be ornamented, but also nearly every other note - with a great liberty (sometimes in his examples the melody can hardly be reckognized ;-) ). So I think it is mainly a matter of (good) taste, when and how often to trill notes (for sure it can be annoying if that is used too often)). Best regards Markus Dale Young schrieb: C.P.E. Bach wrote that in the appogiatura, the dissonance should be held AT LEAST half the value of the written note. Most preformers cheat on this, making these "graces" sound more like annoying speach impediments. Even more annoying, I also hear single comas played as trills. We all need to listen to good keyboard interpretations of music from our time period and geographical region of choice. There are a lot of good keyboard players. Not so many lutenists. So many players interpret the comma ornament as an appogiatura in a measured way. If this is correct, why didn't the composer just write a note? Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Markus Lutz Schulstraße 11 88422 Bad Buchau Tel 0 75 82 / 92 62 89 Fax 0 75 82 / 92 62 90 Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Homepages http://www.die-soehne-edgars.de (Die Söhne Edgars) http://www.slweiss.com (Silvius Leopold Weiss)
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: a very basic question
Them keyboardists are not blameless themselves. Those who come from the conservatory in Bologna trill everything.'' RT - Original Message - From: "Dale Young" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "baroque lute list" ; "Ed Durbrow" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2008 5:44 AM Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: a very basic question C.P.E. Bach wrote that in the appogiatura, the dissonance should be held AT LEAST half the value of the written note. Most preformers cheat on this, making these "graces" sound more like annoying speach impediments. Even more annoying, I also hear single comas played as trills. We all need to listen to good keyboard interpretations of music from our time period and geographical region of choice. There are a lot of good keyboard players. Not so many lutenists. So many players interpret the comma ornament as an appogiatura in a measured way. If this is correct, why didn't the composer just write a note? Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: a very basic question
C.P.E. Bach wrote that in the appogiatura, the dissonance should be held AT LEAST half the value of the written note. Most preformers cheat on this, making these "graces" sound more like annoying speach impediments. Even more annoying, I also hear single comas played as trills. We all need to listen to good keyboard interpretations of music from our time period and geographical region of choice. There are a lot of good keyboard players. Not so many lutenists. So many players interpret the comma ornament as an appogiatura in a measured way. If this is correct, why didn't the composer just write a note? Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: a very basic question
And often the melody note belongs to the underlying harmony, whereas the ornament is a dissonance? Rob 2008/8/20 Ed Durbrow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> So many players interpret the comma ornament as an appogiatura in a measured way. If this is correct, why didn't the composer just write a note? Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan [EMAIL PROTECTED] [3]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 2. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 3. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: a very basic question
So there is no confusion over which note is the 'melody' note and which is the ornament? Rob 2008/8/20 Ed Durbrow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> So many players interpret the comma ornament as an appogiatura in a measured way. If this is correct, why didn't the composer just write a note? Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan [EMAIL PROTECTED] [3]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 2. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 3. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
