Re: What is Magic?
Title: Re: What is Magic? - Original Message - From: Moen Creek To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2002 7:31 PM Subject: Re: What is Magic? Although this is the major argument why grassfed is not truly sustainable, aren't a lot of nutrients also coming from the atmosphere so that it is possible recycle manure while harvesting meat and still be break-even on the nutrient scale(s)?-Allan As so Often Allan you nail it.Michelle,I think your concept has merit. Do it let us know.I say this with the understanding that you are spraying BD preps or using a Field Broadcaster, which we do. We have after 3+ years of FB balancing easily break down of both sheep bovine excrement on the field, all times of the year to some extent. Now back to Allan's point -I have some consideration that a portion of pasture re-planted via grazing cattle and sheep and then Over Seeding (with an Over Seeder) the earlier conventaly (sp?) planted oats or rye to sorghum mangles ( to be grazed through most of the winter) as nurse crops for a combination of chicory, clovers and assorted grasses? Wouldn't move us towards some measure of sustainability. As they say stay tuned.ThanksWith Love LightMarkess Dear Markess- Thanks for your encouragement. As things stand now, we are moving towards more cows on the place. We want diversity and health. We have paid an incredible tuition this year to learn about transitioning from row crops to management intensive grazing. We also have the opportunity right now to "buy the factory right" so to speak with the price of good mama cows being way down due to folks caught in the extreme drought here. Our hearts go out to them and we actually worked with some to graze corn this year, but the fact is that the opportunity is there for us. Our concept is that we will graze all the "scraps" such as early planted oats that we like to hold the soil and keep weed pressure down, which on some pivots will be turned down and planted to corn or edible beans later in the spring. We will plant rye or triticale after wheat in the stubble and graze it along with whatever volunteer wheat comes back. We may put turnips in the corn at cultivation for either grazing the corn beginning at tassel or to have there along with the corn residue we graze if the corn is picked for grain. And if we do establish more long term plantings we will definitely use a mix of grasses and legumes as that has worked well on the 4 pivots we have done this year. We have 4 of Hugh's towers on the farm, plus we put on many many gallons of compost tea this year and our experience was that the manure just disappeared. We also had lots of dung beetles. So, I think that the system is working. I agree with Allan that alot of the nutrients are walked off when the cattle are sold, but do agree that much is brought in from the atmosphere. We feel that this system may not be totally correct and sustainable as we bring in soil amendments and use some fertilizer. But in comparison to what we used to do it's like we have quit waging war on our soils microlife. And we continue to learn and to question all the things we were taught before and truly feel we are being led towards a much better way. It will just take time for us to sort out how to do it and survive economically. I would love to be able to prove that you can improve the soil each year and also raise good quality crops and livestock along with that and to be able to share those concepts with others who really want to do better things for their soil and the earth. Thanks again for your thoughts. We wish you well with your experiments aswell. Best Regards, Michelle Wendell
Re: What is Magic?
- Original Message - From: Hugh Lovel [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 1:01 PM Subject: Re: What is Magic? Dear Hugh- Thanks for your thoughts. I do believe that we are learning and are doing more things right than wrong. I believe we are being led to better concepts, although sometimes it is kicking and fighting. I also think that grazing the covers from the results we have seen is more right than wrong. It may not be the best, but it is much better than our previous practices 6 years ago. To graze or not? While it is true enough that reincorporating cover crops adds back more organic matter than grazing, it does not do so much for increasing digestive factors. I can't think of anything that improves these like cows. I'm glad!! With your broadcasters, as Mark says, you should have no trouble with cow dung getting back into the soil. A cover on the soil is your highest priority. If it's green, all the better, as green vegetation takes carbon dioxide out of the air and pumps it into the soil as sugars. THAT builds soil organic matter as micro-organisms, which are about the most important form of organic matter in the soil. What you might consider is mixing in some companions in your cover crops so you have higher density and diversity of vegetation when you graze. And compost tea, so far, is one of the best fertility input I've seen. We feel that the teas we put on this summer really functioned as a missing link. We made over 200 batches of about 500 gallons each and just moved about the whole farm putting in on from March thru October. I really enjoy making the tea and the brewers we bought and used made very good teas according to Soil Foodweb counts. Elaine really made me understand how important the fungal portion of the teas was when I heard her speak at the bd conference. So that is my next thing to learn is how to make the teas more fungal. And on top of that if there truly is a way to use the bd preps with good intent and methods to enhance the teas even further, then it could be such a powerful tool for our soils. I know I have alot to learn here, but it feels so right. But if you put on a light starter dose of N and P as compost tea with all the azotobacters and mycorrhyzae alive and kicking you will unlock sequestered P as the mycorrhyzae access the Ca and Mg, and you will fix all the nitrogen you need. But compost tea primes the pump. And considering that it would be a good idea to add a little homeopathic horn clay to the compost tea, as that will REALLY get the pumping going. With that in mind I wonder the merits of interplanting something like sorghum/sudan with cowpeas for summer graze cover crop, or rye, vetch and turnip for winter. I forget now what you were planting for cover that you graze, but my idea here is diversity will help plug the gaps in your system. Best, Hugh Some of the long term graze that we have established is definitely a mix of different grasses, some alfalfa and some Alice white clover. Some is just alfalfa and orchard grass. For short term early spring graze, we are just going to plant oats in early March and graze for about a month or 6 weeks before planting the field to corn or edible beans, and behind wheat we did triticale this last summer. We are considering planting some turnips in the corn at cultivation for use if we graze the corn and then later in the fall after corn is picked and cattle are in the corn stalks. One of the benefits we have been taught is that as you say, as above so below. The concept deals with the idea that as the grass/legume grows above ground, so do the roots below ground. Then as the cow grazes off the above ground material, the roots die back to match that above ground. This produces good carbon material in the soil. The other thing we saw this summer was a great proliferization of dung beetles. They did some really good work for us. So as I said above the learning continues, and we truly hope and pray we are doing more rights than wrongs here. Thanks for your thoughts. Michelle Wendell
Re: Asking for Your Considerations
- Original Message - From: Allan Balliett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 2:40 PM Subject: Asking for Your Considerations Folks - What I want to ask is for everyone to visualize my foot healed (size 13!!) and useful again. Please do this whenever you think of it, or when you pray alone or in groups or during your contemplations. Just imagine my left foot painless, complete, and the ankle free to rotate in all directions. I really do believe in the power of prayer and I'd really like to take advantage of the good thoughts of all the good souls who read this list. This will only work, of course, if you can make some time to think me well. Dear Allan, Just letting you know I will be thinking of you. Sometimes it is so easy for us to take our health and wholeness for granted. I wish I could make you an orgone accumulator and beam it to you. That might speed the healing process. Thanks for all you do for others. Michelle Wendell
Re: What is Magic?
- Original Message - From: D S Chamberlain [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 5:17 PM Subject: Re: What is Magic? Michelle: Green manure crops work best if turned back in with as much bulk as possible. Feeding off to livestock is just not the same unless you collect the manure and compost it and respread it. In fact by feeding it off you are depleting your soil and unless you have high biological activity the manure will just lay there for some time. A thought from Oz David C Dear David Thanks for you thought on green manuring. Upon reflection, maybe I should have just called it grazing cover crops. We are very sandy and are trying to hold the ground, keep roots growing which keeps the microbes going, and feel the cover crops also help us with weed control. I would mention that we are transitioning from conventional to more regenerational methods and these green crops really do help. Plus now that we are trying to do some value added through running our feed through cattle these crops also feed the animals. The cover crops are then worked into the ground after grazing and row crops are then planted. We did some of this this spring and felt the response was very positive in the corn planted after cover crop/grazing. I agree though that this isn't a true green manure and I shouldn't have called it that. I hadn't even considered that I was depleting the soil doing this. I guess that I struggle with that concept. Isn't this really how nature's system works and nutrients get recycled? Thanks for your thoughts, and I will consider what you've said. Michelle Wendell
Re: What is Magic?
- Original Message - From: Hugh Lovel [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2002 7:16 PM Subject: Re: What is Magic? So sandy land can be good, even though I'd prefer clay. I bet you could grow good potatoes on your sand anyway. if anyone can put together a class, I'd like to see at least 30 attendees and go two days. I want to make $2,000 out of it, so with the hall and some catering, that comes to close to $100 per attendee. One of the frustrations I feel is that most people are so plugged into advertising and the pictures and totally engineered sales pitches in the major farm magazines. The picture looks so cool to have lemons wall-to-wall all bushy and green. But what is the point? Growing foliage or fruit? It's all so deceptive. The corn you showed me from in the past compared to the recent higher quality shows the true story, while, as you say the elevator doesn't pay any extra for the quality. That's pretty discouraging, knowing that if you grow responsibly you don't get(m)any breaks. I 'm going to have to plant the usual hybrids to see what kind of yields I can really get with them in terms of bushels, but that rankles because my main interest is quality, rather than quantity. They aren't the best corn strains. This leaves us at no winning development, does it not? But it is a win to KNOW we can do a different agriculture with homeopathics and radionics, despite the fact that the market doesn't give us much advantage. Our slight advantage is that we know we can get our nitrogen out of the air and can make rain in timely fashion. I hope it's enough. Best, Hugh Hi Hugh- Just a couple comments from your earlier reply. We know that sand is a difficult soil to work with and very easy to destroy. We've done that. But it also seems to be soil that really responds fast with some better treatment. As far as production on this soil it has really responded and we do feel that the production is better quality-excellent test weights, good storability, etc, and yes it is frustrating that the market does not care. That has led us back to bringing cattle on the farm. We intend to learn to put as much standing feed through our animals as we can. That includes planting oats as a green manure crop early in March and grazing before corn planting in May, grazing on cover crops planted behind wheat harvest, grazing some standing corn etc, etc. This system looks like it combines many good things. It can utilize green manure crops for both weed control and soil improvement as well as providing feed for cattle while they in turn are providing manure for the soils. And we are tending to view this place as a feed farm instead of a cash grain operation. Our conventional system in place of growing the grain, harvesting it, hauling to bins, storing, putting back into a truck, hauling to cattle feedlots, putting in their bin, putting into feed truck and feeding it, going in and scraping up the poor quality feedlot manure and adding more energy to compost it (in the rare few feedlots that try and do something with their manure) then putting it back into a truck and taking back to the farm to put into a spreader to put back on the field is totally insane. We are slow learners in this process of changing our thinking but it has become glaringly obvious that the cattle are a necessarey tool and hopefully if done right a profit center here. I know big money has a hold on the cattle market as well, but the numbers we run show us it can have potential if pursued carefully and is a huge asset in the soil builing process. We plant no GMO varieties, and have focused on running age pregnant cows that were very thin and destined for the hamburger market. Easy to do this year due to the drought-many folks were culling cows that would never been culled because they had no feed. These girls have lots of experience in calving and have come here onto our scrap feed (cornstalks, triticale in wheat stubble, alfalfa fields after freeze, etc) and look terrific. And they have left us the blessing of much manure. So we can't just focus on what the market does or doesn't offer. There is always always opportunity. As far as the rainmaking part, we are very intrigued. We have talked very seriously about getting it worked out to have you come out. Our area is very very dry. It is drier now than in the 30's dustbowl. Just wanted you to know we are thinking of it. We are off to visit Lloyd Charles in Australia (how exciting!) and will be gone for alot of December. Just wanted you to know we are considering ways to have you out. Thanks for your thoughts. Michelle Wendell
Re: What is Magic?/our farm is ....
- Original Message - From: The Korrows [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 9:51 AM Subject: Re: What is Magic? What kind of farm do you have? Dear Christy, We will farm 21 pivots for 03 season (each 130 irrigated acres). We will have corn, kidney beans, wheat, alfalfa and irrigated grass pasture mix, with cattle rotating throughout the farm to utilize scrap feed, such as corn stalks, green manures planted behind wheat, pasture, etc. We have come from very conventional ag (just knew we had to have the chemicals, salt based fertilizers, etc) 6 years ago and are struggling to survive economically through the transition to more regenerational farming practices. Soils are what they call Valentine sand, which means OM of 1-2% (if you haven't burned it up already--we were down under 1% of lots of it). So it was pretty easy to wreck it in short order. We've made and applied compost, quit using alot (not all) of the chemicals, used prodigous amounts of natural soil amendments, cut way back on the salt based fertilizers and add molasses as a carbon source with all of them, use green manure crops, reintroduced cattle, increased diversity of crops, and worked real hard on our intent here. We also put in a greenhouse to grow our own vegetables after realizing through all the reading and learning we've done in this process that most of what you buy in the store is garbage. The two 500 gallon tea brewers were kept very busy all season and we love that process to try and replenish the soil biology. Just beginning to understand the importance of the fungal component needed in the soil, so looking to make teas more fungal. (thanks steve storch) It was at my first BD conference in Oct (thanks allan balliet) that it became clear to me that we could cover our farm with the preps if it worked in the teas. We currently have 4 of Hugh Lovels pipes broadcasting the preps but the teas should be able to work together with that. But my biggest concern is putting the wrong preps in at the wrong times for what is needed out there!?!?!? So I will begin slow and try and let the process teach me as I have been told to do. As I said before, I don't really even know if I believe that bigger farms are correct anymore, but it is the way it is. My dream is to make this place an example of health and vitality and to be able to share the processes with anyone who honestly wants to make a difference and to help those folks maybe sidestep some of the mistakes we have made. I know it is possible to grow exceptionally good crops on these soils and to improve the soil at the same time. It should be a continuing upward spiral, and we are seeing it on some of the fields (not all yet to our frustration) but some of them are reaching out to us and letting us know IT IS WORKING Thanks for your comments and if there is a BD farmer somewhere in Nebraska (you thought maybe Bob Steffan-Massena Farms) could you maybe help me to contact him with a town name or something? Thanks again- Michelle Wendell - Original Message - From: Jack Wendell [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 9:39 AM Subject: Re: What is Magic?
Re: What is Magic?
- Original Message - From: Lloyd Charles [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 3:49 PM Subject: Re: What is Magic? We farm 2300 acres in southern Australia and are, like you, in the middle of trying to convert away from chemicals. Dear Lloyd- I have been gone for a few days but wanted to thank you for your comments. I also wanted to ask you where in southern Australia you were. My husband is going on what I call his walkabout on Nov 30, and coming to look at your country. He is gathering info and wants to be able to consider moving our operation there. He is heartily fed up with our government programs, and the whole system here and says the exchange rate encourages a move your direction. So, am wondering if there might be any way he could visit with you while he is there? If so, please email me and we can set up some way to visit about it. I am not usually one for quoting Steiner said but he did say the BENEFITS of the biodynamic preparations should be made available as quickly as possible to the largest possible areas of the entire earth - to me the major benefits are the regenerative forces contained in the preps and I choose to put those forces out over my land with a field broadcaster - at least that gets done - Cheers - and keep posting Lloyd Charles Yes- We have 4 of Hugh Lovell's broadcasters on the farm. But I thought using the preps in the teas would be a great way to have them enhance each other. We love our tea! By the way, there is alot of talk about e coli in the teas, etc. We use vermicompost in our brewing process. It is beautiful stuff and tests well. I have no idea if e coli issues are involved here, but it seems to really work well for the tea. Once again, thanks so much for your thoughts. This is a wonderful site to follow, but it is a bit overwhelming at times! Best Regards- Michelle Wendell
Re: What is Magic?
- Original Message - From: Hugh Lovel [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 9:04 PM Subject: Re: What is Magic? Dear Michelle, There's no doubt you have really got the restorational bug. Now you are making BC and considering how to get the remedies in your irrigation sprays. This is do-able by radionically treating your tea and spray waters. It is another learning gradient, Dear Hugh-- Yes, it would be. Sometime I will call and visit with you about how to radionically treat the tea and spray water. I guess I thought the preps would be energized or whatever process you call it in the brewing process of the teas, so the whole batch would carry the energy. Is that a correct assumption, or am I way off base in my thinking. Our brewers pump the water in a vortice in the brewing process. Help. But one of my questions is, considering the nitrate contamination of your Oglalla Aquifer, how much salt nitrogen does your irrigation water contain? I looked it up here and our water tested at 2 ppm of nitrates. So I don't think that is a problem here, although I know that in some areas here it is definitely a problem (although they crow about it. One farmer I know bragged that they got 100# of nitrogen applied just by pumping their water for the season. OH my God! what a mess) If it is high enough, and I don't know right offhand how high is too high, irrigation will suppress the all-important azotobacter activity you need in your soil to pull your nitrogen out of the air. Is your annual rainfall any less? Our rainfall is about 17-18 inches per year average, although we are in the clutches of the driest 3 years since the 30's right now. What if you had adequate rainfall when you needed it? Would you be interested in taking my rain making course if I give one in Wisconsin? Would you have any neighbors who haven't totally written you off as cracked who would join you in taking the course? I would be interested in the course sometime. I actually have a great neighbor (he was here when you came for the pipes here) that was very disappointed when you were unable to do the seminar in Santa Fe. What would it take in terms of attendance to do a seminar here or in this area? And don't take it too hard if people think you are beyond salvage. It is a badge of courage if anything. Hopefully they will find out before it is too late, but they may go down the tubes and you can hardly help it. But I do know making rain is practical, and it on the same order of practical that getting all your carbon, oxygen, hydrogen, sulfur and, most importantly, nitrogen out of the air for free. Everyone should be getting all these five out of the air for free. We should be fine tuning our operations until we achieve this. And we should get the rain we need for free and no longer depend on irrigation except for serious emergencies. Some say, the best things in life are free. In my reality this is true. I think you and Jack might share my reality with just a little encouragement. My next thought is how might others? I wish I knew. Most folks can't begin to even go where we are with regards to not using insecticides, balancing the soils, not using GMO's etc, etc let alone talking about energy, rainmaking, etc. We as farmers have backed ourselves into the addict's slot complete with huge overheads and bank notes to promote continual reliance on the drugs for the continued high of production. I can vouch for the fact that it takes a huge influx of equity to suck it up and take the cure. This process and system of farming is so much more difficult because you actually have to think for yourself. Not a common practice is conventional ag. It is so much easier to stop by the co-op and have them pull samples and tell you what you need, when you need it, then go put it on for you. Doing anything else might interrupt your golf game. And the products we are working with now have the tendency to try and grow in the tank (wow what a concept-vs salt based fertilizers, etc that sterilize the tanks) such as the teas, liquid fish mixes, molasses, etc. That has been unique to try and deal with on pumps, sprayers etc. So I really don't know how to convince anyone else about anything except to lead by example. You seem to be doing a great job of that. Best Regards- Michelle Wendell
Re: What is Magic?
- Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 12:41 PM Subject: Re: What is Magic? Hey Michelle, you have not short circuited, you have plugged in and your molecules are getting rearranged. You have asked for help and you are getting it. Keep doing what you are and questions will be answered, help will come when needed. Soon the same people that doubt your efforts will be asking for your help. Lead, follow, or get out of the way. Create Life and enjoy your New Farm...sstorch Dear Steve- I like your concept that I have plugged in and molecules are being re arranged. That sound much better than my concept that my brains have been thrown in the blender and puree'd. Thanks for your encouragement both on site and your thought on teas in Virginia. I hope someday I can share back something beneficial. Michelle Wendell
Re: What is Magic?
Hello- I am new here and writing on this site makes my palms sweat, but I would like to say that I came from Nebraska to go to Allan's BD Conference in October. I felt pulled to it from the time I saw it offered in Acres USA and it was wonderful. I come from a checkered past of very conventional production agriculture and until 6 years ago believed this was the only way. When our field no longer grew decent crops even with massive doses of chemical inputs, we began our quest for a better way. It has been the most wonderful and difficult thing I have ever been involved with and we have fought an uphill battle all the way-personally and economically. I personally feel that my brains have been put in a Waring Blender and thoroughly scrambled. Nothing that I believed in belongs anymore. What I find is that I believe with all my heart and soul there is a better way. I am pulled so very hard towards the spirituality and connectedness of the bd concepts. But how to get there?!?!? I came home from the conference and made my own batch of barrel compost. I am on my way out now to our small greenhouse to stir a batch of bc using the preps that I bought at the conference for my own vegetables. Most everyone here thinks I have short circuited somewhere. I guess what I wanted to say here is thank you for all of your thoughts on this site. I feel so strongly that I am supposed to be learning these things. Allan spoke in a recent post about creating sparks from your thoughts and I think you have helped me here. Much goes right over my head, but some I grasp on a deeper level than even I can really understand or explain. I am on a journey to find and support my intuitive nature (which is the real me) and disconnect from the logical side that I have had to learn to function in in my role here. Hard to do.My dream is to be able to bring our farm to a place that you can just feel the positive beautiful growing energy on when you come here. We like to call it regenerational farming. Then to be able to share that with anyone that is interested to help them make changes and avoid some of the mistakes we have made. There isn't much room for mistakes economically any more. Is there a place for bd concepts in larger scale agriculture?? or do those two concepts totally oppose one another? See, here again confusion reigns. I agree with all of you that our earth desperately needs healing. Is it possible to use bd on larger operations? I am thinking of use of preps in our compost tea brewing process. We made and put on about 9 gallons of tea this past summer. I feel it could be a wonderful way to address larger operations. Not that I feel large operations are necessarily the correct approach, but to face the facts, that is what is going on in our world. And if there is a way to bring even a fraction of those folks towards healing the soil instead of destroying it, then there has to be someone to help show them that it can work. Well, once again thank you for your thoughts. I hope the spiritual world understands and helps those that struggle and are confused, because then there is hope for me! Michelle Wendell - Original Message - From: Allan Balliett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 6:18 AM Subject: Re: What is Magic? Have a meeting for farmer on how to organize cooperative markets 2 people will come. Have a class on how to get 2 blades of grass instead of one you had better rent a huge hall. Maybe I missed the point of the above, Markess, but in our area, tell farmers how to make money fast (Joel Salatin, for example) and you'll fill the hall. Offer to tell people how to heal the earth and create foods of higher quality at the same time and very few are interested. Take the BIODYNAMIC CONFERENCE for example: right down the road from the BD Conference were TWO of the most famous organic farms in northern Virginia. Both heavily attended Salatin (i.e. one has 5 interns, the other 14 interns- almost all came for Joel), NONE attended the BD Conference. Like Merla, these folks were offered free passes so there would be no easy excuse to not attend at least portions of the conference. Although they all implied that they would be at the conference (heaven's - they didn't even have to cross the street!), none attended. We had a similar response to the Sustainable Ag video/discussion series. Very few interested in the philosophy and principles behind growing food in cooperation with Nature. A few of the big market people attended one of the presentations, but clearly just so they could find out who I was and what I could do for them in the short run. We got excellent exposure to the local farm community for all of these events. We have a N. VA farmer's discussion list, to which invitations and reminders were posted. I know the big mouths in local fruit and vegetable growing. No one attended, although the head of the market did
