Compost teas & regulations
All: Over the years I have bashed my head against many brick walls and I finally learned that you don't fight the system, you use it. To use the system you need two main things: 1, You need to be very clear on what you want. 2. You need to know the system and all it's intricacies so that you can manipulate it to achieve your aims. Governments, regulators and accreditation authorities are part of the scene like it or not, how about we try to get them to compliment the farmer with their regulations so that everyone wins Regulatory bodies are more likely to listen if you present complete and constructive ideas as against just telling them they are wrong and putting up ideas that confront their ideology. This forum, BDNOW, brings together a world wide group of forward thinking people who should be able to come up with a system that satisfy all parties. As I see it they can make all the rules and regulations they like, I'll find a way around them if I want to and so can everyone else, but like most people I want to turn out the best produce I can and regulations that assist me to do that are good. It is the responsibility of governments to ensure that food is not contaminated, their efficiency at doing this is questionable. The definition of contamination is also questionable, I refer in this post to biological contamination not chemical. In Australia the government has set up Chemical and Pesticide courses that in theory anyway you must attend in order to use these products, I have not attended a course but those who have certainly seem to be much more responsible in their chemical use. The point being that there is an official effort at educating people in correct and safe?? usage of products and in theory users should be aware of the associated dangers. Thus removing the excuse of "I didn't know". I suggest that similar courses may be an answer to compost and compost tea problems as envisaged by the regulators. Is it worth the effort to put together a submission using the list to gather ideas to put forward to regulators? I don't mean just the education idea but others as well. Have to go and do some work now, I have other ideas about the subject I will probably put forward later. David C with the flat head.
Re: Notes on Compost Teas, a new publication
Hi Cordelia Some notes on compost Teas > > Forwarding this announcement from Sanet, a new publication > from ATTRA called "Notes on Compost Teas." > > Steve Diver > > - > New item on the ATTRA web page: > > Notes on Compost Teas: A Supplement to Compost Teas for > Plant Disease Control > http://www.attra.ncat.org/attra-pub/PDF/compost-tea-notes.pdf > A 19-page PDF download with text and slides (March, 2002) > > Compost teas are a hot topic in organic agriculture. > > The rhizosphere and the phyllosphere are those zones of rich > biological activity on the root and leaf surfaces. That is > where the spores from pathogens land and then germinate and > get a hold on plants which result in diseases like early blight, > anthracnose, and powdery mildew. > > Yet, with compost teas you have an opportuntity to inoculate > these plant surfaces with a healthy population of diverse > beneficial microrganisms which fight the bad guys and save > your crops from disease outbreaks. > > Organic growers, prohibited from using synthetic fungicides > to control diseases, are taking to compost teas > like a mud salamander to water after a long Texas drought. > > Yet, disease control is just one of the benefits of compost > tea application. They also provide soluble nutrients, > enzymes, bioactive compounds, and other substances. > Crops tend to green up and look strong and healthy > after a dose of compost teas. In some instances remarkable > yield increases have been recorded. Well, if you are an agricultural > field that's been regularly dosed with chemicals and suffered > from tillage overkill for 20 years, and then one day a biological > farmer comes along with a cup of microbial tea, you would > be singing "green acres and sunshine", too. Such is the case in > California on a number of "conventional" farms converted to > "biological" farming. Soils that were becoming hard as a rock > and a haven for soil-borne diseases have been reclaimed with > bulk composts and compost teas. > > "Notes on Compost Teas" provides a summary of liquid extracts > and compost tea brewing methods, it has a list of compost > tea brewing equipment, and it has a large selection of web > resources which you can look through for background reading > and research on this topic. The other section I think > you will find interesting is Elaine Ingham's data on > characteristics of a healthy soil foodweb, minimum standards > for compost, and minimum standards for compost teas. > > Of special interest is the section titled "Key Literature," > which contains several OFRF research reports, a pointer to > SFI's "Compost Tea Brewing Manual," and compost tea reports > from William Brinton's at Woods End Agricultural Research > Laboratory. > > There is also a section with slides that provide a > complementary presentation on compost teas, including > microscopic close-up views of the phyllosphere. It is > a jungle out there on the leaf surface, with hundreds > of species of microbes living there amidst the undulating > epidermal surfaces covered with a forest of trichomes. > > Best wishes on the Spring Equinox, > Steve Diver > > === > Appropriate Technology Transfer for Rural Areas (ATTRA) > P.O. Box 3657 > Fayetteville, AR 72702 > 800-346-9140 > 501-442-9842 Fax > http://www.attra.ncat.org > > ATTRA is a project of NCAT - National Center for > Appropriate Technology >
Re: Trouble Brewing: Science, Compost Teas and Organic Certification
On 25 May 02, Lloyd Charles wrote: ---8<--- > Dig deep (if you're brave enough) and you will find connections > from these researchers back to the multinational chemical > companies. Watch out for "Viral Marketing" too. George Monibot in his recent "The Fake Persuaders" article wrote: "An article on its [Bivings Group] website, entitled "Viral Marketing: How to Infect the World" warns that "there are some campaigns where it would be undesirable or even disastrous to let the audience know that your organization is directly involved ... it simply is not an intelligent PR move. In cases such as this, it is important to first "listen" to what is being said online ... Once you are plugged into this world, it is possible to make postings to these outlets that present your position as an uninvolved third party. ... Perhaps the greatest advantage of viral marketing is that your message is placed into a context where it is more likely to be considered seriously." A senior executive from Monsanto is quoted on the Bivings site, thanking the PR firm for its "outstanding work"." Full story: http://www.monbiot.com/dsp_article.cfm?article_id=511 Cheers... Rex
Re: Trouble Brewing: Science, Compost Teas and Organic Certification
- Original Message - From: Frank Teuton Subject: Trouble Brewing: Science, Compost Teas and Organic Certification > Dear Frank and other "brewers" When I attended Elaine Ingham's workshop two seasons ago I wondered how long it would take the chemical industry to react to what she was doing. Looking from a conventional (chemical using) farmers position the use of compost is very limited in application particularly in broadacre operations. But here was this lady telling us how to take a ton (or less) of good quality compost add water and some cheap basic feedstock (sugar / molasses) and turn it into a product we could use to replace thousands of dollars of fungicide and insecticide and in the long run probably cut herbicide by at least half - she had common sense, logic, and a stack of hard scientific evidence to back every claim! While ever these type of advances are seen to be limited to the organic or alternative agriculture cummunity there is no problem but when it looks like moving into the mainstream and seriously affecting sales (which the widespread use of compost teas would do) then the big guns swing into actoion. Dig deep (if you're brave enough) and you will find connections from these researchers back to the multinational chemical companies > I have been informed in the last few days that the process of making > amplified aerobic microbial cultures starting with high quality compost, > aerated water and nutrients to create a high bacteria and fungal count > product useful in horticultural and agriculture has come under doubt, and > has been slated to be placed under 120 day restrictions similar to those for > raw manure. > > The reason proposed for this is supposedly that, under certain conditions, a > nutrient solution will support growth of 'enteric pathogenic bacterial > organisms' such as E.coli and Salmonella spp. > > I would very much like to see the specific details of the experiments which > underly the judgment reached by the National Organic Standards Board Compost > Task Force when it issued the following: >
Re: Trouble Brewing: Science, Compost Teas and Organic Certification
Dear NOSB members: Please provide me with citations to the literature on which you are relying in the proposed regulation to treat compost tea like raw manure for purposes of organic certification. My practical anecdotal evidence is that there is no danger of human pathogens in using compost tea. The literature I am familiar with is clear that properly brewed tea with properly made compost does not pose any health risk. In fact using compost tea made aerobically has the potential to drastically improve health conditions by reducing the use of harmful pesticides. Yours truly, Dorothy A. O'Brien 1776 Deer Creek Road Clinton, IA. 52732 __ Do You Yahoo!? LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com
Re: Trouble Brewing: Science, Compost Teas and Organic Certification
Com;ost tea must be good stuff if they want to restrict its use! SStorch
Trouble Brewing: Science, Compost Teas and Organic Certification
Dear NOSB members and those interested in compost teas: I have been informed in the last few days that the process of making amplified aerobic microbial cultures starting with high quality compost, aerated water and nutrients to create a high bacteria and fungal count product useful in horticultural and agriculture has come under doubt, and has been slated to be placed under 120 day restrictions similar to those for raw manure. The reason proposed for this is supposedly that, under certain conditions, a nutrient solution will support growth of 'enteric pathogenic bacterial organisms' such as E.coli and Salmonella spp. I would very much like to see the specific details of the experiments which underly the judgment reached by the National Organic Standards Board Compost Task Force when it issued the following: "2. Compost and Vermicompost teas The use of a liquid compost extract, or "compost tea", raises special issues. The preparation and use of compost tea and compost extract has been increasing in the U.S. during recent years. Organic producers especially are interested in compost teas and extracts because the preparations reportedly provide some degree of control of foliar and root pathogenic organisms. Various methods and practices have developed for production of the teas or extracts since the practice originated some years ago in Europe. However, recent research at the USDA Agricultural Research Service's labs in Beltsville, MD and Corvallis, OR shows that certain approaches to compost tea or extract preparation are conducive to growth of enteric bacterial pathogenic organisms, such as enterotoxigenic E. coli and Salmonella. The practices and procedures that lead to pathogen growth in the prepared teas and extracts involve the addition of supplemental nutrients such as sugars, molasses or other readily available (soluble) carbon sources during batch production. The researchers did not observed growth of enteric pathogenic organisms when compost tea or extract was prepared only with water and high quality compost. By high quality compost, they mean compost that has met criteria for destroying pathogenic organisms, i.e., 131ºF for 3 days, or compost that has less than 3 MPN salmonella per 4 grams compost (dry weight) and less than 1000 MPN fecal coliforms. The critical determinant regarding pathogen growth in compost teas and extracts is the addition of the carbon sources like sugars, molasses, or yeast or malt extracts during the "brewing" phase. Recommendation: Compost teas if used in contact with crops less than 120 days before harvest must be made from high quality compost described above and not prepared with addition of supplemental nutrients such as sugars, molasses or other readily available (soluble) carbon sources." http://www.ams.usda.gov/nop/CompostCMTTskFrceRec.pdf This matter was brought to my attention in the pages of Dr. Elaine Ingham's internet newsletter: http://www.soilfoodweb.com/ezinearchives/may2002.html I have been using compost tea for the last two years, using the aerobic/nutrient added method. We are making extensive use of it in an apple orchard, and I use it in landscaping, gardening and lawn care. I have accepted as a working basis the judgment of Dr Ingham that good compost, good aeration and appropriate amounts of nutrients would yield a good quality tea that would offer benefits to plant growth and not pose a significant risk to human health. My results so far have given me no reason to doubt Dr. Ingham's judgment. So, I find this recommendation of the NOSB's Compost Task Force needs closer examination to see if in fact the experiments were properly done and indicate a real problem, or if, as Dr Ingham asserts is likely, they were poorly done and, used as the foundation for judgment, will result in the unnecessary exclusion of a valuable biological technology for organic and other growers. So I would like to have a full, detailed account of the conditions under which these experiments have been carried out. It strikes me as very peculiar that Dr Ingham has not run into pathogen problems in the course of working with hundreds of aerobic, nutrient added brewed compost teas, while other researchers claim to find them. Something in the parameters of the processes must be substantially different for such divergent results to occur. I feel it is crucial for the credibility of the organic movement to make these kinds of scientific decisions as transparent and open to scrutiny as possible. Replication of both positive and negative results and the use of peer-reviewed publications would be very helpful in making clearer what does, and what does not work in the use of microbial cultures, and thus what should be allowed, restricted or excluded under an appropriate regulation regime. All comments and further information are welcome, Frank L. Teuton III, BGS, JD [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Notes on Compost Teas, a new publication
Forwarding this announcement from Sanet, a new publication from ATTRA called "Notes on Compost Teas." Steve Diver --- Begin Message --- New item on the ATTRA web page: Notes on Compost Teas: A Supplement to Compost Teas for Plant Disease Control http://www.attra.ncat.org/attra-pub/PDF/compost-tea-notes.pdf A 19-page PDF download with text and slides (March, 2002) Compost teas are a hot topic in organic agriculture. The rhizosphere and the phyllosphere are those zones of rich biological activity on the root and leaf surfaces. That is where the spores from pathogens land and then germinate and get a hold on plants which result in diseases like early blight, anthracnose, and powdery mildew. Yet, with compost teas you have an opportuntity to inoculate these plant surfaces with a healthy population of diverse beneficial microrganisms which fight the bad guys and save your crops from disease outbreaks. Organic growers, prohibited from using synthetic fungicides to control diseases, are taking to compost teas like a mud salamander to water after a long Texas drought. Yet, disease control is just one of the benefits of compost tea application. They also provide soluble nutrients, enzymes, bioactive compounds, and other substances. Crops tend to green up and look strong and healthy after a dose of compost teas. In some instances remarkable yield increases have been recorded. Well, if you are an agricultural field that's been regularly dosed with chemicals and suffered from tillage overkill for 20 years, and then one day a biological farmer comes along with a cup of microbial tea, you would be singing "green acres and sunshine", too. Such is the case in California on a number of "conventional" farms converted to "biological" farming. Soils that were becoming hard as a rock and a haven for soil-borne diseases have been reclaimed with bulk composts and compost teas. "Notes on Compost Teas" provides a summary of liquid extracts and compost tea brewing methods, it has a list of compost tea brewing equipment, and it has a large selection of web resources which you can look through for background reading and research on this topic. The other section I think you will find interesting is Elaine Ingham's data on characteristics of a healthy soil foodweb, minimum standards for compost, and minimum standards for compost teas. Of special interest is the section titled "Key Literature," which contains several OFRF research reports, a pointer to SFI's "Compost Tea Brewing Manual," and compost tea reports from William Brinton's at Woods End Agricultural Research Laboratory. There is also a section with slides that provide a complementary presentation on compost teas, including microscopic close-up views of the phyllosphere. It is a jungle out there on the leaf surface, with hundreds of species of microbes living there amidst the undulating epidermal surfaces covered with a forest of trichomes. Best wishes on the Spring Equinox, Steve Diver === Appropriate Technology Transfer for Rural Areas (ATTRA) P.O. Box 3657 Fayetteville, AR 72702 800-346-9140 501-442-9842 Fax http://www.attra.ncat.org ATTRA is a project of NCAT - National Center for Appropriate Technology --- End Message ---
Re: Compost Teas
>The final numbers should be the ultimate proof. Till I get the numbers I >should say nothing more but I do not agree to some oppinions that >have the tendency >to present Dr Elaine as the only person in the world capable of >telling you the right >way of doing things. Jose - Your tea may be good enough that it doesn't matter if you lose some of the life in the process of making it. Your tea might be food enough that when you brew it it does everything that you'd hope a compost tea to be. My friend Jerry Brunetti is making the best tea Elaine's NY lab has seen.Why, because he's making his tea from better compost than Elaine's customers are capable of making. I imagine most BD growers have a big edge in making compost tea for the very same reasons. All I'm saying is that when we put out a lot of time and money to save time and money, it makes sense to use a system that's synergistic and not antagonistic to our goals. People making tea from weak compost cannot afford to guillotine, shear, plane or pump their mircrobes to the extent that power compost makers can. I first met Elaine at ACRES in St Louis in the mid-90's. She'd already spent a lot of time counting bugs at that point. she's done an awful lot since then. Given that her opinions are drawn from direct observation and extensive field experimentation, I'm very open to take her advice in the realm of her specialty. -Allan
Compost Teas
Allan wrote : "Just my two cents: all though Elaine has blessed Jose's vortex nozzle and we know from Jose that he does produce good results with his tea, in other conversations with Elaine she's been pretty firm that you want to avoid running the tea through pumps and nozzles if possible. Microbes are life, of course, and can easily be bumped, bruise, broken, and squashed. I'd recommend setting up a system that maximized aeration by pumping air, not tea. You will definitely want a 'professionally made' bag for your compost and consider designing a diffuser that goes into the bag in the middle of the compost. I'm hearing lots of stories about compost caking and becoming inpenetrable during the brewing process. -Allan" - Dr Elaine has been pretty firm in the fact that a Compost Tea Brewer should show a consistent pattern of making efficient Compost Teas as measured by a lab ( any lab) analysis showing an upward curve of microorganism multiplication. It is impossible for me to send her a sample, even if I use Fedex, so I have done a contract with the main Microbiological Ag lab ( state owned) in Brazil to study my Compost Brewer and show some written results. I would love to send a fresh sample to Dr Elaine´s and to spend USD 200.00 to learn something that I have already know but the distance makes it impossible. Now if I can get similar results than any other Brewer type that Dr Elaine says that are OK what it should matter if I " bump, broke, squash or bruise" microorganisms and still get the same end results. Microorganisms grows because they find the place hospitable and the medium that I provide is a good one not because Dr Elaine tells them to grow or not to grow. The final numbers should be the ultimate proof. Till I get the numbers I should say nothing more but I do not agree to some oppinions that have the tendency to present Dr Elaine as the only person in the world capable of telling you the right way of doing things. Jose
Re: SFW: Flowforms for Brewing Compost Teas
Cheryl, Just a note to remember with gases (oxygen) dissolved in water. Though warmed water will stimulate microbial growth, warmer water holds less oxygen. To remember the rule, think of water boiling and the gases beign released from it. Chris --- Allan Balliett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > >> From Cheryl Kemp > >> > >>For Elaine, firstly thanks for the tremendous > job you are doing - > >> were are learning so much, and your work is > really helping us to > >> understand how Biodynamics works in the soil. > > > >> My question is: Can a flowform be used instead > of a brewer for > >> compost tea, especially if we use warmed water? > >> My thoughts are that the oxygenation and > movement helps develop > >>the organisms. > >> Have you done any experiments with this? > >> > >> PS. If you would like to do some experiments in > Australia I could > >> help organise it! We have a flowform maker just > near your Lismore Lab. > > > Cheryl Kemp > > > >Hi Cheryl - > > > >Thank you for the kind words. I do very much > appreciate them. > > > >I think a flow form can make tea of just as good > microbial activity and total > >biomass as commercial tea makers. Of course, I > have more data on > >the commercial > >tea makers. Little differences in the design of > tea machines can be extremely > >important, so I would think the same would be the > case for flow > >forms. Movement > >and aeration are critical because you have to keep > the organisms aerobic. > >Extraction through the compost is critical too, > because you have to pull the > >organisms from the surface of the compost and into > the water. So, if the flow > >forms keep the liquid well aerated, and pull the > organisms from the > >compost, plus > >impose an energy pattern on the water, then maybe > flow forms can > >make great tea > >too. We need to assess the organisms, and the > impact on the plants, soil, and > >surfaces in order to document this. > > > >So, yes, I would like to do some experiments on > this, but we'd need > >to sit down > >and talk about the experimental design, and that > most unfortunate of > >topics, how > >is going to pay to run the experiments? I wish we > could do all this work for > >free, but the technical staff need to buy food and > pay rent.. > > > >So, let me know what you see for possible > interactions! I hope we > >can find some > >funding someplace! > > > >Elaine Ingham > __ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com
SFW: Flowforms for Brewing Compost Teas
> >> From Cheryl Kemp >> >>For Elaine, firstly thanks for the tremendous job you are doing - >> were are learning so much, and your work is really helping us to >> understand how Biodynamics works in the soil. > >> My question is: Can a flowform be used instead of a brewer for >> compost tea, especially if we use warmed water? >> My thoughts are that the oxygenation and movement helps develop >>the organisms. >> Have you done any experiments with this? >> >> PS. If you would like to do some experiments in Australia I could >> help organise it! We have a flowform maker just near your Lismore Lab. > > Cheryl Kemp > >Hi Cheryl - > >Thank you for the kind words. I do very much appreciate them. > >I think a flow form can make tea of just as good microbial activity and total >biomass as commercial tea makers. Of course, I have more data on >the commercial >tea makers. Little differences in the design of tea machines can be extremely >important, so I would think the same would be the case for flow >forms. Movement >and aeration are critical because you have to keep the organisms aerobic. >Extraction through the compost is critical too, because you have to pull the >organisms from the surface of the compost and into the water. So, if the flow >forms keep the liquid well aerated, and pull the organisms from the >compost, plus >impose an energy pattern on the water, then maybe flow forms can >make great tea >too. We need to assess the organisms, and the impact on the plants, soil, and >surfaces in order to document this. > >So, yes, I would like to do some experiments on this, but we'd need >to sit down >and talk about the experimental design, and that most unfortunate of >topics, how >is going to pay to run the experiments? I wish we could do all this work for >free, but the technical staff need to buy food and pay rent.. > >So, let me know what you see for possible interactions! I hope we >can find some >funding someplace! > >Elaine Ingham
