Re: What is Magic?
Dear Hugh, At 09:19 PM 11/28/2002, you wrote: Dear Barry, I really appreciate your on-going tutelage concerning ORMUS. I will continue to post as I come across things that relate. I haven't gotten it together to collect any yet, though I probably do rather inadvertantly with some of my radionic/biodynamic techniques. But keep on schooling me. Sorry I was unable to attend your workshop in Waynesville. I'm sure that there will be more in the future. -- With kindest regards, Barry Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] 2319 Balm Baker City, Oregon 97814 Phone: 541-523-3357 Web Pages: Forest - http://www.subtleenergies.com/ormus/bmnfa/index.htm ORMUS - http://www.subtleenergies.com/ormus/whatisit.htm What you think upon grows. Whatever you allow to occupy your mind you magnify in your life. Whether the subject of your thought be good or bad, the law works and the condition grows. Any subject that you keep out of your mind tends to diminish in your life, because what you do not use atrophies. The more you think of grievances, the more such trials you will continue to receive; the more you think of the good fortune you have had, the more good fortune will come to you. --Emmet Fox
Re: What is Magic?
Title: Re: What is Magic? - Original Message - From: Moen Creek To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2002 7:31 PM Subject: Re: What is Magic? Although this is the major argument why grassfed is not truly sustainable, aren't a lot of nutrients also coming from the atmosphere so that it is possible recycle manure while harvesting meat and still be break-even on the nutrient scale(s)?-Allan As so Often Allan you nail it.Michelle,I think your concept has merit. Do it let us know.I say this with the understanding that you are spraying BD preps or using a Field Broadcaster, which we do. We have after 3+ years of FB balancing easily break down of both sheep bovine excrement on the field, all times of the year to some extent. Now back to Allan's point -I have some consideration that a portion of pasture re-planted via grazing cattle and sheep and then Over Seeding (with an Over Seeder) the earlier conventaly (sp?) planted oats or rye to sorghum mangles ( to be grazed through most of the winter) as nurse crops for a combination of chicory, clovers and assorted grasses? Wouldn't move us towards some measure of sustainability. As they say stay tuned.ThanksWith Love LightMarkess Dear Markess- Thanks for your encouragement. As things stand now, we are moving towards more cows on the place. We want diversity and health. We have paid an incredible tuition this year to learn about transitioning from row crops to management intensive grazing. We also have the opportunity right now to "buy the factory right" so to speak with the price of good mama cows being way down due to folks caught in the extreme drought here. Our hearts go out to them and we actually worked with some to graze corn this year, but the fact is that the opportunity is there for us. Our concept is that we will graze all the "scraps" such as early planted oats that we like to hold the soil and keep weed pressure down, which on some pivots will be turned down and planted to corn or edible beans later in the spring. We will plant rye or triticale after wheat in the stubble and graze it along with whatever volunteer wheat comes back. We may put turnips in the corn at cultivation for either grazing the corn beginning at tassel or to have there along with the corn residue we graze if the corn is picked for grain. And if we do establish more long term plantings we will definitely use a mix of grasses and legumes as that has worked well on the 4 pivots we have done this year. We have 4 of Hugh's towers on the farm, plus we put on many many gallons of compost tea this year and our experience was that the manure just disappeared. We also had lots of dung beetles. So, I think that the system is working. I agree with Allan that alot of the nutrients are walked off when the cattle are sold, but do agree that much is brought in from the atmosphere. We feel that this system may not be totally correct and sustainable as we bring in soil amendments and use some fertilizer. But in comparison to what we used to do it's like we have quit waging war on our soils microlife. And we continue to learn and to question all the things we were taught before and truly feel we are being led towards a much better way. It will just take time for us to sort out how to do it and survive economically. I would love to be able to prove that you can improve the soil each year and also raise good quality crops and livestock along with that and to be able to share those concepts with others who really want to do better things for their soil and the earth. Thanks again for your thoughts. We wish you well with your experiments aswell. Best Regards, Michelle Wendell
Re: What is Magic?
- Original Message - From: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Moen Creek To: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2002 7:31 PM Subject: Re: What is Magic? Dear Michelle, Allan is right. A LOT of nutrients can come from the atmosphere. Out your way a lot can disappear into the atmosphere, can't they? What goes up must come down. Where does the topsoil/fine organic matter go when it blows off from neighboring fields? Won't you catch some if you farm with that in mind? Plus, as every housewife anywhere in the world knows, dust settles everywhere, evens in the deepest, most unused closet. As every archeologist knows, you have to dig down to uncover the civilizations of previous eras--the older they are the deeper you dig. Plus, as every astronomer knows, the Earth acrues millions of tons of dust from the solar wind each year. In a sunspot year it can be a lot. And there are volcanic events that can gift you with some really nice stuff once in a while. It's funny that the ag colleges know about wind and rain erosion, but they don't know about soil deposition. I guess using their methods they don't see much deposition, just erosion. That's another reason to take what they say about agriculture with a grain of salt. Best, Hugh Lovel Although this is the major argument why grassfed is not truly sustainable, aren't a lot of nutrients also coming from the atmosphere so that it is possible recycle manure while harvesting meat and still be break-even on the nutrient scale(s)? -Allan Visit our website at: www.unionag.org
Re: What is Magic?
Dear Hugh, At 10:48 AM 11/28/2002, you wrote: Allan is right. A LOT of nutrients can come from the atmosphere. Out your way a lot can disappear into the atmosphere, can't they? What goes up must come down. Where does the topsoil/fine organic matter go when it blows off from neighboring fields? Won't you catch some if you farm with that in mind? The ORMUS elements have been extracted from the air by an Australian geologist. He also determined that they are present in relative abundance in dew collected at the time of the full moon but not at other times of the month. Another colleague determined that there was about four ounces of ORMUS gold per ton of water just out of a spring but that there was only two ounces of ORMUS gold per ton in the water a thousand meters downstream. This suggests that the ORMUS was going into the air. Certain methods for collecting the ORMUS elements from the air appear to have been described in mystical tradition. Hindu tradition speaks of the prana which can be collected from the air using certain breathing techniques. For example Ujjai Pranayama is a breathing technique which is said to collect prana in the throat by inhaling and exhaling through the nose while the throat is constricted. Chinese tradition mentions chi which is spoken of similarly and Hawaii'an tradition also speaks of a similar substance in the air. -- With kindest regards, Barry Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] 2319 Balm Baker City, Oregon 97814 Phone: 541-523-3357 Web Pages: Forest - http://www.subtleenergies.com/ormus/bmnfa/index.htm ORMUS - http://www.subtleenergies.com/ormus/whatisit.htm What you think upon grows. Whatever you allow to occupy your mind you magnify in your life. Whether the subject of your thought be good or bad, the law works and the condition grows. Any subject that you keep out of your mind tends to diminish in your life, because what you do not use atrophies. The more you think of grievances, the more such trials you will continue to receive; the more you think of the good fortune you have had, the more good fortune will come to you. --Emmet Fox
Re: What is Magic?
Dear Barry, I really appreciate your on-going tutelage concerning ORMUS. I haven't gotten it together to collect any yet, though I probably do rather inadvertantly with some of my radionic/biodynamic techniques. But keep on schooling me. Sorry I was unable to attend your workshop in Waynesville. Best, Hugh Dear Hugh, At 10:48 AM 11/28/2002, you wrote: Allan is right. A LOT of nutrients can come from the atmosphere. Out your way a lot can disappear into the atmosphere, can't they? What goes up must come down. Where does the topsoil/fine organic matter go when it blows off from neighboring fields? Won't you catch some if you farm with that in mind? The ORMUS elements have been extracted from the air by an Australian geologist. He also determined that they are present in relative abundance in dew collected at the time of the full moon but not at other times of the month. Another colleague determined that there was about four ounces of ORMUS gold per ton of water just out of a spring but that there was only two ounces of ORMUS gold per ton in the water a thousand meters downstream. This suggests that the ORMUS was going into the air. Certain methods for collecting the ORMUS elements from the air appear to have been described in mystical tradition. Hindu tradition speaks of the prana which can be collected from the air using certain breathing techniques. For example Ujjai Pranayama is a breathing technique which is said to collect prana in the throat by inhaling and exhaling through the nose while the throat is constricted. Chinese tradition mentions chi which is spoken of similarly and Hawaii'an tradition also speaks of a similar substance in the air. -- With kindest regards, Barry Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] 2319 Balm Baker City, Oregon 97814 Phone: 541-523-3357 Web Pages: Forest - http://www.subtleenergies.com/ormus/bmnfa/index.htm ORMUS - http://www.subtleenergies.com/ormus/whatisit.htm What you think upon grows. Whatever you allow to occupy your mind you magnify in your life. Whether the subject of your thought be good or bad, the law works and the condition grows. Any subject that you keep out of your mind tends to diminish in your life, because what you do not use atrophies. The more you think of grievances, the more such trials you will continue to receive; the more you think of the good fortune you have had, the more good fortune will come to you. --Emmet Fox Visit our website at: www.unionag.org
Re: What is Magic?
I hadn't even considered that I was depleting the soil doing this. I guess that I struggle with that concept. Isn't this really how nature's system works and nutrients get recycled? Michelle - In nature's system the animal's carcass and all the nutrients stockpiled therein also eventually gets deposited in the field, but, here in real-life, I bet you ship yours off to Kansas City by the ton. Although this is the major argument why grassfed is not truly sustainable, aren't a lot of nutrients also coming from the atmosphere so that it is possible recycle manure while harvesting meat and still be break-even on the nutrient scale(s)? -Allan Dear Michelle, To graze or not? While it is true enough that reincorporating cover crops adds back more organic matter than grazing, it does not do so much for increasing digestive factors. I can't think of anything that improves these like cows. One of the biggest questions is where do we stand with the biology of our soil? In large part I guess I'm talking about our symbiotic micro-organisms. I just came back from Oklahoma, so my truck is covered with dust--they-re losing it out there the way you lose it up in Nebraska. But farmers with a good wheat planting that they are now grazing are not the ones losing it. It's the folks using anhydrous. I tasted the wheat on one quarter that was organic, planted with compost tea as the only input/and across the road in the next quarter planted at the same time with anhydrous. Which looked the best? The tea, of course. Which tasted the best? Well, the one planted with tea was nearly twice as hard to chew to juice, so the sugars and other factors weren't as quick to flood the mouth. But the tea was clearly sweeter and richer, while the anhydrous was watery. If I was a cow I KNOW which one I'd have eaten. But the point is you, in the sand hills, cannot afford to lose dust, or anything else that blows. You could have a wind farm, for heaven's sake. With your broadcasters, as Mark says, you should have no trouble with cow dung getting back into the soil. A cover on the soil is your highest priority. If it's green, all the better, as green vegetation takes carbon dioxide out of the air and pumps it into the soil as sugars. THAT builds soil organic matter as micro-organisms, which are about the most important form of organic matter in the soil. They also are the most vulnerable to drying out and blowing away if you cultivate the crop in. What you might consider is mixing in some companions in your cover crops so you have higher density and diversity of vegetation when you graze. And compost tea, so far, is one of the best fertility input I've seen. You not only put a very light dose of nutrients out there, but more importantly, you put out high populations of symbiotic bacteria and fungi. If you do this when you plant and keep nitrogen and phosphate inputs low as possible you should see things take off and the nitrogen fixation occur around the roots like you want. And compost tea got a lot simpler to make once we realized all you have to pump is air, not liquid. A small compressor can be rigged up to aerate and circulate a very large tank. Convention wisdom is you put on the nitrogen and phosphorus for the crop. Well, if you do that as soluble N and P you will kill the azotobacters and mycorrhyzae at planting time and you will HAVE to put on enough N and P for the whole crop. But if you put on a light starter dose of N and P as compost tea with all the azotobacters and mycorrhyzae alive and kicking you will unlock sequestered P as the mycorrhyzae access the Ca and Mg, and you will fix all the nitrogen you need. And as a foliar, I suspect compost tea does something we haven't been looking at. It give the foliage a charge with all the major and minor nutrients and they aren't loathe to pump their sap back down to the roots of an evening like they generally are when they have some nutrient defeciency. This gets the soil food web going in high gear and the nutrients come back in greater abundance. But compost tea primes the pump. And considering that it would be a good idea to add a little homeopathic horn clay to the compost tea, as that will REALLY get the pumping going. With that in mind I wonder the merits of interplanting something like sorghum/sudan with cowpeas for summer graze cover crop, or rye, vetch and turnip for winter. I forget now what you were planting for cover that you graze, but my idea here is diversity will help plug the gaps in your system. Best, Hugh Visit our website at: www.unionag.org
Re: What is Magic?
- Original Message - From: Hugh Lovel [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 1:01 PM Subject: Re: What is Magic? Dear Hugh- Thanks for your thoughts. I do believe that we are learning and are doing more things right than wrong. I believe we are being led to better concepts, although sometimes it is kicking and fighting. I also think that grazing the covers from the results we have seen is more right than wrong. It may not be the best, but it is much better than our previous practices 6 years ago. To graze or not? While it is true enough that reincorporating cover crops adds back more organic matter than grazing, it does not do so much for increasing digestive factors. I can't think of anything that improves these like cows. I'm glad!! With your broadcasters, as Mark says, you should have no trouble with cow dung getting back into the soil. A cover on the soil is your highest priority. If it's green, all the better, as green vegetation takes carbon dioxide out of the air and pumps it into the soil as sugars. THAT builds soil organic matter as micro-organisms, which are about the most important form of organic matter in the soil. What you might consider is mixing in some companions in your cover crops so you have higher density and diversity of vegetation when you graze. And compost tea, so far, is one of the best fertility input I've seen. We feel that the teas we put on this summer really functioned as a missing link. We made over 200 batches of about 500 gallons each and just moved about the whole farm putting in on from March thru October. I really enjoy making the tea and the brewers we bought and used made very good teas according to Soil Foodweb counts. Elaine really made me understand how important the fungal portion of the teas was when I heard her speak at the bd conference. So that is my next thing to learn is how to make the teas more fungal. And on top of that if there truly is a way to use the bd preps with good intent and methods to enhance the teas even further, then it could be such a powerful tool for our soils. I know I have alot to learn here, but it feels so right. But if you put on a light starter dose of N and P as compost tea with all the azotobacters and mycorrhyzae alive and kicking you will unlock sequestered P as the mycorrhyzae access the Ca and Mg, and you will fix all the nitrogen you need. But compost tea primes the pump. And considering that it would be a good idea to add a little homeopathic horn clay to the compost tea, as that will REALLY get the pumping going. With that in mind I wonder the merits of interplanting something like sorghum/sudan with cowpeas for summer graze cover crop, or rye, vetch and turnip for winter. I forget now what you were planting for cover that you graze, but my idea here is diversity will help plug the gaps in your system. Best, Hugh Some of the long term graze that we have established is definitely a mix of different grasses, some alfalfa and some Alice white clover. Some is just alfalfa and orchard grass. For short term early spring graze, we are just going to plant oats in early March and graze for about a month or 6 weeks before planting the field to corn or edible beans, and behind wheat we did triticale this last summer. We are considering planting some turnips in the corn at cultivation for use if we graze the corn and then later in the fall after corn is picked and cattle are in the corn stalks. One of the benefits we have been taught is that as you say, as above so below. The concept deals with the idea that as the grass/legume grows above ground, so do the roots below ground. Then as the cow grazes off the above ground material, the roots die back to match that above ground. This produces good carbon material in the soil. The other thing we saw this summer was a great proliferization of dung beetles. They did some really good work for us. So as I said above the learning continues, and we truly hope and pray we are doing more rights than wrongs here. Thanks for your thoughts. Michelle Wendell
Re: What is Magic?
Lloyd: I wonder what others have experienced with this? Before the drought I had strips in our front paddock where I experimented with this, on our soil it is a case of turn in all the bulk possible to get good results, feeding off sends things backwards. As for roots on their own supplying green manure, no way. Perhaps it is because our soil is badly depleted. What is also interesting is that the locals were actually asking what I had done to get the strip so good, instead of making up their own version of whatever weird thing I was doing. David C - Original Message - From: Lloyd Charles [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, 26 November 2002 5:53 PM Subject: Re: What is Magic? Dear Allan - David - Michelle wrote I hadn't even considered that I was depleting the soil doing this. I guess that I struggle with that concept. (that grazing green crops is detrimental - me too) In my kind of rainfall environment it takes a season to grow a bulky green manure crop, if we then plow it in we need to use a disk implement of some sort to get the job done, so we get caught in the classic overcultivation trap and by the time we plant crop our organic carbon reading has gone way down - the disking overstimulates the system and we get excessive mineralisation over summer - burning up accumulated carbon as well as the green manure crop - but if we graze these paddocks down in spring we can then use a tyned implement to cultivate (chisel plow is best for us) and we get much less rapid breakdown over summer so although we put less vegetable material into the system to start, we end up with better organic carbon at seeding time and we have more available for release of organic nitrogen as the crop grows. Its a more balanced result. Michelle is working to a different time frame, It takes a massive amount of biological activity, warmth, lots of moisture and energy, to break down mature crop residues quickly without throwing the soil system out of balance (nitrogen deficit) . All of those things are going on in a ruminant animal all the time, we use sheep but cows are better at bulky stuff. I think its pointless trying to build up soil levels (carbon and minerals) if we then have to burn it back down with cultivation to prepare for the next crop. Balance is the key ! Maximum of anything is not always the way to go! Cheers all Lloyd Charles
Re: What is Magic?
Hi David Point I was trying to make was if we put excess material into the system too close to the next crop - and then have to use more cultivation (disking twice?) to encourage breakdown we are going round in circles - the cycle must be back in balance by time we seed the following crop or we will take a big dive from nitrogen tie up. Grazing to reduce bulk is the best answer to that situation. There is certainly a lot to learn about this - every farmer will have a different way - and the scientists will be very little help - after all, active soil biology is outside their paradigm - (most of them) Lloyd: I wonder what others have experienced with this? Before the drought I had strips in our front paddock where I experimented with this, on our soil it is a case of turn in all the bulk possible to get good results, feeding off sends things backwards. As for roots on their own supplying green manure, no way. OK its not GREEN but its valuable material none the less and half the vegetative bulk of most plants is below the ground - when we cultivate thats the portion that we loose first Perhaps it is because our soil is badly depleted. What is also interesting is that the locals were actually asking what I had done to get the strip so good, instead of making up their own version of whatever weird thing I was doing. If they are asking questions they must be impressed! Cheers again Lloyd Charles ps half inch of rain yesterday in a storm - would of been worth squillions six weeks ago!
Re: What is Magic?
Title: Re: What is Magic? Although this is the major argument why grassfed is not truly sustainable, aren't a lot of nutrients also coming from the atmosphere so that it is possible recycle manure while harvesting meat and still be break-even on the nutrient scale(s)? -Allan As so Often Allan you nail it. Michelle, I think your concept has merit. Do it let us know. I say this with the understanding that you are spraying BD preps or using a Field Broadcaster, which we do. We have after 3+ years of FB balancing easily break down of both sheep bovine excrement on the field, all times of the year to some extent. Now back to Allan's point -I have some consideration that a portion of pasture re-planted via grazing cattle and sheep and then Over Seeding (with an Over Seeder) the earlier conventaly (sp?) planted oats or rye to sorghum mangles ( to be grazed through most of the winter) as nurse crops for a combination of chicory, clovers and assorted grasses? Wouldn't move us towards some measure of sustainability. As they say stay tuned. Thanks With Love Light Markess
Re: What is Magic?
Michelle wrote That has led us back to bringing cattle on the farm. We intend to learn to put as much standing feed through our animals as we can. That includes planting oats as a green manure crop early in March and grazing before corn planting in May, grazing on cover crops planted behind wheat harvest, grazing some standing corn etc, etc. This system looks like it combines many good things. It can utilize green manure crops for both weed control and soil improvement as well as providing feed for cattle while they in turn are providing manure for the soils. And we are tending to view this place as a feed farm instead of a cash grain operation. Our conventional system Michelle: Green manure crops work best if turned back in with as much bulk as possible. Feeding off to livestock is just not the same unless you collect the manure and compost it and respread it. In fact by feeding it off you are depleting your soil and unless you have high biological activity the manure will just lay there for some time. A thought from Oz David C
Re: What is Magic?
Michelle: Green manure crops work best if turned back in with as much bulk as possible. Feeding off to livestock is just not the same unless you collect the manure and compost it and respread it. In fact by feeding it off you are depleting your soil and unless you have high biological activity the manure will just lay there for some time. The trend here in the mid-atlantic that is put forward by the sustainable ag extension agents is that root composting is more valueable that 'green manuring.' With this in mind, green manure crops are cut down and raked off - usually to the compost pile where they will live another day, probably a day in the fall. Turning in the green mature is seen as slowing down the soil in the important growing period. For some reason, it's assumed that the decaying root mass will not deny nitrogen to a new crop, or, at least this is never mentioned as a factor to wait for before planting the next crop. Myself, I like to feed the greenmatter to rabbits and the rabbit manure to the worms and the resulting crumbly to the beds later in the season. -Allan
Re: What is Magic?
- Original Message - From: D S Chamberlain [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 5:17 PM Subject: Re: What is Magic? Michelle: Green manure crops work best if turned back in with as much bulk as possible. Feeding off to livestock is just not the same unless you collect the manure and compost it and respread it. In fact by feeding it off you are depleting your soil and unless you have high biological activity the manure will just lay there for some time. A thought from Oz David C Dear David Thanks for you thought on green manuring. Upon reflection, maybe I should have just called it grazing cover crops. We are very sandy and are trying to hold the ground, keep roots growing which keeps the microbes going, and feel the cover crops also help us with weed control. I would mention that we are transitioning from conventional to more regenerational methods and these green crops really do help. Plus now that we are trying to do some value added through running our feed through cattle these crops also feed the animals. The cover crops are then worked into the ground after grazing and row crops are then planted. We did some of this this spring and felt the response was very positive in the corn planted after cover crop/grazing. I agree though that this isn't a true green manure and I shouldn't have called it that. I hadn't even considered that I was depleting the soil doing this. I guess that I struggle with that concept. Isn't this really how nature's system works and nutrients get recycled? Thanks for your thoughts, and I will consider what you've said. Michelle Wendell
Re: What is Magic?
I hadn't even considered that I was depleting the soil doing this. I guess that I struggle with that concept. Isn't this really how nature's system works and nutrients get recycled? Michelle - In nature's system the animal's carcass and all the nutrients stockpiled therein also eventually gets deposited in the field, but, here in real-life, I bet you ship yours off to Kansas City by the ton. Although this is the major argument why grassfed is not truly sustainable, aren't a lot of nutrients also coming from the atmosphere so that it is possible recycle manure while harvesting meat and still be break-even on the nutrient scale(s)? -Allan
Re: What is Magic?
Dear Allan - David - Michelle wrote I hadn't even considered that I was depleting the soil doing this. I guess that I struggle with that concept. (that grazing green crops is detrimental - me too) In my kind of rainfall environment it takes a season to grow a bulky green manure crop, if we then plow it in we need to use a disk implement of some sort to get the job done, so we get caught in the classic overcultivation trap and by the time we plant crop our organic carbon reading has gone way down - the disking overstimulates the system and we get excessive mineralisation over summer - burning up accumulated carbon as well as the green manure crop - but if we graze these paddocks down in spring we can then use a tyned implement to cultivate (chisel plow is best for us) and we get much less rapid breakdown over summer so although we put less vegetable material into the system to start, we end up with better organic carbon at seeding time and we have more available for release of organic nitrogen as the crop grows. Its a more balanced result. Michelle is working to a different time frame, It takes a massive amount of biological activity, warmth, lots of moisture and energy, to break down mature crop residues quickly without throwing the soil system out of balance (nitrogen deficit) . All of those things are going on in a ruminant animal all the time, we use sheep but cows are better at bulky stuff. I think its pointless trying to build up soil levels (carbon and minerals) if we then have to burn it back down with cultivation to prepare for the next crop. Balance is the key ! Maximum of anything is not always the way to go! Cheers all Lloyd Charles
Re: What is Magic?
- Original Message - From: Hugh Lovel [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2002 7:16 PM Subject: Re: What is Magic? So sandy land can be good, even though I'd prefer clay. I bet you could grow good potatoes on your sand anyway. if anyone can put together a class, I'd like to see at least 30 attendees and go two days. I want to make $2,000 out of it, so with the hall and some catering, that comes to close to $100 per attendee. One of the frustrations I feel is that most people are so plugged into advertising and the pictures and totally engineered sales pitches in the major farm magazines. The picture looks so cool to have lemons wall-to-wall all bushy and green. But what is the point? Growing foliage or fruit? It's all so deceptive. The corn you showed me from in the past compared to the recent higher quality shows the true story, while, as you say the elevator doesn't pay any extra for the quality. That's pretty discouraging, knowing that if you grow responsibly you don't get(m)any breaks. I 'm going to have to plant the usual hybrids to see what kind of yields I can really get with them in terms of bushels, but that rankles because my main interest is quality, rather than quantity. They aren't the best corn strains. This leaves us at no winning development, does it not? But it is a win to KNOW we can do a different agriculture with homeopathics and radionics, despite the fact that the market doesn't give us much advantage. Our slight advantage is that we know we can get our nitrogen out of the air and can make rain in timely fashion. I hope it's enough. Best, Hugh Hi Hugh- Just a couple comments from your earlier reply. We know that sand is a difficult soil to work with and very easy to destroy. We've done that. But it also seems to be soil that really responds fast with some better treatment. As far as production on this soil it has really responded and we do feel that the production is better quality-excellent test weights, good storability, etc, and yes it is frustrating that the market does not care. That has led us back to bringing cattle on the farm. We intend to learn to put as much standing feed through our animals as we can. That includes planting oats as a green manure crop early in March and grazing before corn planting in May, grazing on cover crops planted behind wheat harvest, grazing some standing corn etc, etc. This system looks like it combines many good things. It can utilize green manure crops for both weed control and soil improvement as well as providing feed for cattle while they in turn are providing manure for the soils. And we are tending to view this place as a feed farm instead of a cash grain operation. Our conventional system in place of growing the grain, harvesting it, hauling to bins, storing, putting back into a truck, hauling to cattle feedlots, putting in their bin, putting into feed truck and feeding it, going in and scraping up the poor quality feedlot manure and adding more energy to compost it (in the rare few feedlots that try and do something with their manure) then putting it back into a truck and taking back to the farm to put into a spreader to put back on the field is totally insane. We are slow learners in this process of changing our thinking but it has become glaringly obvious that the cattle are a necessarey tool and hopefully if done right a profit center here. I know big money has a hold on the cattle market as well, but the numbers we run show us it can have potential if pursued carefully and is a huge asset in the soil builing process. We plant no GMO varieties, and have focused on running age pregnant cows that were very thin and destined for the hamburger market. Easy to do this year due to the drought-many folks were culling cows that would never been culled because they had no feed. These girls have lots of experience in calving and have come here onto our scrap feed (cornstalks, triticale in wheat stubble, alfalfa fields after freeze, etc) and look terrific. And they have left us the blessing of much manure. So we can't just focus on what the market does or doesn't offer. There is always always opportunity. As far as the rainmaking part, we are very intrigued. We have talked very seriously about getting it worked out to have you come out. Our area is very very dry. It is drier now than in the 30's dustbowl. Just wanted you to know we are thinking of it. We are off to visit Lloyd Charles in Australia (how exciting!) and will be gone for alot of December. Just wanted you to know we are considering ways to have you out. Thanks for your thoughts. Michelle Wendell
Re: What is Magic?
Dear Lloyd, A visit to Australia by Hugh to show us how he fixes Nitrogen from the air would be a worthwhile thing, without anything else that we may be able to learn from being with him. KNOW we can do a different agriculture with homeopathics and radionics, despite the fact that the market doesn't give us much advantage. Our slight advantage is that we know we can get our nitrogen out of the air and can make rain in timely fashion. Of course the ability to make rain, whenever it is needed, would be worthwhile attending just to see how Hugh can make rain whenever he needs it. In the meantime we shall just have to battle along and take what the gods give us. Kind regards James
Re: What is Magic?
I would have thought you'd get a group in Santa Fe easy - maybe the title scared them off? Lloyd, Hugh, et al - My impression is that the event was not publicized very well. I'm a Bioneer associate and I receieved no direct mail or email on this event. I imagine that the Bioneer people assumed that rain making is a local event and Santa Fe could fill the seats. In reality, real world issues such as agriculture or, I guess, rain making, are of no interest to the New Age crowd, at least in the US. (Same goes for ecology groups..they are also not really interested in agriculture or in understanding that lots of ecological problems, like the loss of hemlocks, are due to 'problems in the sky.') The crowd for subtle energy work is a national crowd. You have to reach out to the entire united states to find a few dozen people who have interested (and feel a calling to them) in these topics that will motivate them to find the time and money to attend the events. My conference was attended by people from all over North America (none from Mexico this time, unfortunately) I find it telling that organic growers in my own county said they couldn't attend EVEN WITH A FREE PASS because they would miss markets by attending. In the meantime, people came from all over, missing their markets, allowing work to pile up in their patches, buying plane tickets, paying for lodging, and supporting the confernece by paying registrations. Such a group of people is a joy to spend time with. It leaves a soul glow that lasts for weeks. Only through networking with like minds such as we do through BD Now! can the teachers reach the audience to a degree that will allow us to eventually build local networks of people who realize the power and the necessity of knowing how to work with subtle energies. The interest is growing. I've been asked to teach a SECRETS OF THE SOILS class in a local horticulural series in the later winter. Bravo! Evolution gave us the tools to co-evolve. Let's use them as often as we can!! -Allan
Re: What is Magic?
Lloyd, The BD remedies in the broadcaster set up the conditions, but, of course, if the soil is dead it helps enormously to apply some compost to get the micro-organisms cooking. If the soil is already biologically alive no compost may be needed. We planted a couple acre corn field this year on an old dairy hayfield that had enough biology and got good corn yield with no fertilizer whatsoever. Planning on doing this on a 8 acre field next year, as we could use the animal feed, and corn adds about half a percent organic matter in a season. Best, Hugh Dear Hugh We have Cheryl working on this and I am really looking forward to your visit if it can be organised - so we'll keep our fingers crossed - she usually manages to get things to happen. I would have thought you'd get a group in Santa Fe easy - maybe the title scared them off? (from your reply to Michelle). As for rainmaking, if anyone can put together a class, I'd like to see at least 30 attendees and go two days. One of the frustrations I feel is that most people are so plugged into advertising and the pictures and totally engineered sales pitches in the major farm magazines. The corn you showed me from in the past compared to the recent higher quality shows the true story, while, as you say the elevator doesn't pay any extra for the quality. That's pretty discouraging, knowing that if you grow responsibly you don't get(m)any breaks. I have been heartened by the fact that out here several animal feeder operations are sniffing around - looking to source grain grown on re mineralised soil programs at a bit of a premium - this is outside of organic certified - these feedlot operations keep meticulous records and do their sums and aparently have found that they are getting a better result for less grain - they are sharks for sure and are not doing this out of any sense of moral responsibility. We've got the tools. Our homeopathic remedies and means for applying them are good enough already, though they may improve. We can create the conditions in virtually any soils to fix nitrogen out of the air and dispense with nitrogen fertilizers. The 'how to of this would make a good after dinner discussion for February in Aus! -- it is a win to KNOW we can do a different agriculture with homeopathics and radionics, despite the fact that the market doesn't give us much advantage. Our slight advantage is that we know we can get our nitrogen out of the air and can make rain in timely fashion. I am really looking forward to learning more of this Cheers Lloyd Charles Visit our website at: www.unionag.org
Re: What is Magic?/our farm is ....
Dear Michelle, As far as puting the right preps in the broadcasters at the right times, ordinarily I reccommend using all the ones in the packages (Upper well package in upper well, lower well package in lower well) all the time. They work best as the entire complex. As for weed or insect reagents these can be another matter, but probably can also be left in continuously. Right now I do have my lower well reagents removed from my broadcasters here because I'm trying to get it to stop raining. We are getting too much rain. That's the only reason I take them out, except to put a new set in once or twice a year. We seems to need different potencies pretty much each year. But definitely the reagents work best when they are all used together. You can think of the them as analogous to parts of the body. 500--central nervous system, 501--senses, 502--kidneys, 503--intestines, 504--heart and blood vessels, 505--skeleton, 506--liver, 507--metabolism, 508--skin and hair. If any one is missing the organism is in trouble. Best, Hugh - Original Message - From: The Korrows [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 9:51 AM Subject: Re: What is Magic? What kind of farm do you have? Dear Christy, We will farm 21 pivots for 03 season (each 130 irrigated acres). We will have corn, kidney beans, wheat, alfalfa and irrigated grass pasture mix, with cattle rotating throughout the farm to utilize scrap feed, such as corn stalks, green manures planted behind wheat, pasture, etc. We have come from very conventional ag (just knew we had to have the chemicals, salt based fertilizers, etc) 6 years ago and are struggling to survive economically through the transition to more regenerational farming practices. Soils are what they call Valentine sand, which means OM of 1-2% (if you haven't burned it up already--we were down under 1% of lots of it). So it was pretty easy to wreck it in short order. We've made and applied compost, quit using alot (not all) of the chemicals, used prodigous amounts of natural soil amendments, cut way back on the salt based fertilizers and add molasses as a carbon source with all of them, use green manure crops, reintroduced cattle, increased diversity of crops, and worked real hard on our intent here. We also put in a greenhouse to grow our own vegetables after realizing through all the reading and learning we've done in this process that most of what you buy in the store is garbage. The two 500 gallon tea brewers were kept very busy all season and we love that process to try and replenish the soil biology. Just beginning to understand the importance of the fungal component needed in the soil, so looking to make teas more fungal. (thanks steve storch) It was at my first BD conference in Oct (thanks allan balliet) that it became clear to me that we could cover our farm with the preps if it worked in the teas. We currently have 4 of Hugh Lovels pipes broadcasting the preps but the teas should be able to work together with that. But my biggest concern is putting the wrong preps in at the wrong times for what is needed out there!?!?!? So I will begin slow and try and let the process teach me as I have been told to do. As I said before, I don't really even know if I believe that bigger farms are correct anymore, but it is the way it is. My dream is to make this place an example of health and vitality and to be able to share the processes with anyone who honestly wants to make a difference and to help those folks maybe sidestep some of the mistakes we have made. I know it is possible to grow exceptionally good crops on these soils and to improve the soil at the same time. It should be a continuing upward spiral, and we are seeing it on some of the fields (not all yet to our frustration) but some of them are reaching out to us and letting us know IT IS WORKING Thanks for your comments and if there is a BD farmer somewhere in Nebraska (you thought maybe Bob Steffan-Massena Farms) could you maybe help me to contact him with a town name or something? Thanks again- Michelle Wendell - Original Message - From: Jack Wendell [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 9:39 AM Subject: Re: What is Magic? Visit our website at: www.unionag.org
Re: What is Magic?
Why don't you try reaching out to the pagan community, a more earth based 'religion' than the so called new age. (Allan wrote:) or, I guess, rain making, are of no interest to the New Age crowd, at least in the US. I wonder how many of these same people who didn't attend your conference will be applying for organic certification... I find it telling that organic growers in my own county said they couldn't attend EVEN WITH A FREE PASS because they would miss markets by attending Just a thought or two, Jane S.
Re: What is Magic?
Why don't you try reaching out to the pagan community, a more earth based 'religion' than the so called new age. When I said 'New Age,' I was, carelessly or not, including Pagans. I think it is important to remember that biodynamics is an evolved discipline. For the most part, the current pagan movement appears to be valuing devolution. I'm not criticizing, of course, but I think that biodynamics would have to be misrepresented and probably demeaned in order to appeal to a large pagan audience. My post was not intended to be about marketing per se, but simply an aknowledgement of what a small percentage of the population is interested in farming with subtle energies and, of those, how few really care enough about expanding the knowledge base around these insights to leave the comfort of their living rooms to support teachers and events. I guess, if like the modern pagan events (as a 2-time May Day host, I'm qualified to speak on this topic) we BD people became known for orgies at our gatherings, we may gather more attendees and more energy, but one always has to wonder what the long term value of gonad-based interest is. Not, of course, am I critical of people who join organizations to meet people, either.
Re: What is Magic?
I'm not qualified to speak for pagans, or biodynamic farmers for that matter. Perhaps part of your quandary, is that one can also learn about subtle energies without attending conferences, but by walking out one's own door into the world and by meeting local farmers and supporting local teachers events. It's a shame that more 'local' folks from your area did not attend your conference. Sounds like the market calls to them more than the subtle energies or the wonderful teachers you've assembled. Maybe quality is more important than quantity of attendees. From: Allan Balliett [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 19:27:50 -0500 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: What is Magic? My post was not intended to be about marketing per se, but simply an aknowledgement of what a small percentage of the population is interested in farming with subtle energies and, of those, how few really care enough about expanding the knowledge base around these insights to leave the comfort of their living rooms to support teachers and events.
Re: What is Magic?
Dear Hugh We have Cheryl working on this and I am really looking forward to your visit if it can be organised - so we'll keep our fingers crossed - she usually manages to get things to happen. I would have thought you'd get a group in Santa Fe easy - maybe the title scared them off? (from your reply to Michelle). As for rainmaking, if anyone can put together a class, I'd like to see at least 30 attendees and go two days. One of the frustrations I feel is that most people are so plugged into advertising and the pictures and totally engineered sales pitches in the major farm magazines. The corn you showed me from in the past compared to the recent higher quality shows the true story, while, as you say the elevator doesn't pay any extra for the quality. That's pretty discouraging, knowing that if you grow responsibly you don't get(m)any breaks. I have been heartened by the fact that out here several animal feeder operations are sniffing around - looking to source grain grown on re mineralised soil programs at a bit of a premium - this is outside of organic certified - these feedlot operations keep meticulous records and do their sums and aparently have found that they are getting a better result for less grain - they are sharks for sure and are not doing this out of any sense of moral responsibility. We've got the tools. Our homeopathic remedies and means for applying them are good enough already, though they may improve. We can create the conditions in virtually any soils to fix nitrogen out of the air and dispense with nitrogen fertilizers. The 'how to of this would make a good after dinner discussion for February in Aus! -- it is a win to KNOW we can do a different agriculture with homeopathics and radionics, despite the fact that the market doesn't give us much advantage. Our slight advantage is that we know we can get our nitrogen out of the air and can make rain in timely fashion. I am really looking forward to learning more of this Cheers Lloyd Charles
Re: What is Magic?/our farm is ....
- Original Message - From: The Korrows [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 9:51 AM Subject: Re: What is Magic? What kind of farm do you have? Dear Christy, We will farm 21 pivots for 03 season (each 130 irrigated acres). We will have corn, kidney beans, wheat, alfalfa and irrigated grass pasture mix, with cattle rotating throughout the farm to utilize scrap feed, such as corn stalks, green manures planted behind wheat, pasture, etc. We have come from very conventional ag (just knew we had to have the chemicals, salt based fertilizers, etc) 6 years ago and are struggling to survive economically through the transition to more regenerational farming practices. Soils are what they call Valentine sand, which means OM of 1-2% (if you haven't burned it up already--we were down under 1% of lots of it). So it was pretty easy to wreck it in short order. We've made and applied compost, quit using alot (not all) of the chemicals, used prodigous amounts of natural soil amendments, cut way back on the salt based fertilizers and add molasses as a carbon source with all of them, use green manure crops, reintroduced cattle, increased diversity of crops, and worked real hard on our intent here. We also put in a greenhouse to grow our own vegetables after realizing through all the reading and learning we've done in this process that most of what you buy in the store is garbage. The two 500 gallon tea brewers were kept very busy all season and we love that process to try and replenish the soil biology. Just beginning to understand the importance of the fungal component needed in the soil, so looking to make teas more fungal. (thanks steve storch) It was at my first BD conference in Oct (thanks allan balliet) that it became clear to me that we could cover our farm with the preps if it worked in the teas. We currently have 4 of Hugh Lovels pipes broadcasting the preps but the teas should be able to work together with that. But my biggest concern is putting the wrong preps in at the wrong times for what is needed out there!?!?!? So I will begin slow and try and let the process teach me as I have been told to do. As I said before, I don't really even know if I believe that bigger farms are correct anymore, but it is the way it is. My dream is to make this place an example of health and vitality and to be able to share the processes with anyone who honestly wants to make a difference and to help those folks maybe sidestep some of the mistakes we have made. I know it is possible to grow exceptionally good crops on these soils and to improve the soil at the same time. It should be a continuing upward spiral, and we are seeing it on some of the fields (not all yet to our frustration) but some of them are reaching out to us and letting us know IT IS WORKING Thanks for your comments and if there is a BD farmer somewhere in Nebraska (you thought maybe Bob Steffan-Massena Farms) could you maybe help me to contact him with a town name or something? Thanks again- Michelle Wendell - Original Message - From: Jack Wendell [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 9:39 AM Subject: Re: What is Magic?
Re: What is Magic?
- Original Message - From: Lloyd Charles [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 3:49 PM Subject: Re: What is Magic? We farm 2300 acres in southern Australia and are, like you, in the middle of trying to convert away from chemicals. Dear Lloyd- I have been gone for a few days but wanted to thank you for your comments. I also wanted to ask you where in southern Australia you were. My husband is going on what I call his walkabout on Nov 30, and coming to look at your country. He is gathering info and wants to be able to consider moving our operation there. He is heartily fed up with our government programs, and the whole system here and says the exchange rate encourages a move your direction. So, am wondering if there might be any way he could visit with you while he is there? If so, please email me and we can set up some way to visit about it. I am not usually one for quoting Steiner said but he did say the BENEFITS of the biodynamic preparations should be made available as quickly as possible to the largest possible areas of the entire earth - to me the major benefits are the regenerative forces contained in the preps and I choose to put those forces out over my land with a field broadcaster - at least that gets done - Cheers - and keep posting Lloyd Charles Yes- We have 4 of Hugh Lovell's broadcasters on the farm. But I thought using the preps in the teas would be a great way to have them enhance each other. We love our tea! By the way, there is alot of talk about e coli in the teas, etc. We use vermicompost in our brewing process. It is beautiful stuff and tests well. I have no idea if e coli issues are involved here, but it seems to really work well for the tea. Once again, thanks so much for your thoughts. This is a wonderful site to follow, but it is a bit overwhelming at times! Best Regards- Michelle Wendell
Re: What is Magic?
- Original Message - From: Hugh Lovel [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 9:04 PM Subject: Re: What is Magic? Dear Michelle, There's no doubt you have really got the restorational bug. Now you are making BC and considering how to get the remedies in your irrigation sprays. This is do-able by radionically treating your tea and spray waters. It is another learning gradient, Dear Hugh-- Yes, it would be. Sometime I will call and visit with you about how to radionically treat the tea and spray water. I guess I thought the preps would be energized or whatever process you call it in the brewing process of the teas, so the whole batch would carry the energy. Is that a correct assumption, or am I way off base in my thinking. Our brewers pump the water in a vortice in the brewing process. Help. But one of my questions is, considering the nitrate contamination of your Oglalla Aquifer, how much salt nitrogen does your irrigation water contain? I looked it up here and our water tested at 2 ppm of nitrates. So I don't think that is a problem here, although I know that in some areas here it is definitely a problem (although they crow about it. One farmer I know bragged that they got 100# of nitrogen applied just by pumping their water for the season. OH my God! what a mess) If it is high enough, and I don't know right offhand how high is too high, irrigation will suppress the all-important azotobacter activity you need in your soil to pull your nitrogen out of the air. Is your annual rainfall any less? Our rainfall is about 17-18 inches per year average, although we are in the clutches of the driest 3 years since the 30's right now. What if you had adequate rainfall when you needed it? Would you be interested in taking my rain making course if I give one in Wisconsin? Would you have any neighbors who haven't totally written you off as cracked who would join you in taking the course? I would be interested in the course sometime. I actually have a great neighbor (he was here when you came for the pipes here) that was very disappointed when you were unable to do the seminar in Santa Fe. What would it take in terms of attendance to do a seminar here or in this area? And don't take it too hard if people think you are beyond salvage. It is a badge of courage if anything. Hopefully they will find out before it is too late, but they may go down the tubes and you can hardly help it. But I do know making rain is practical, and it on the same order of practical that getting all your carbon, oxygen, hydrogen, sulfur and, most importantly, nitrogen out of the air for free. Everyone should be getting all these five out of the air for free. We should be fine tuning our operations until we achieve this. And we should get the rain we need for free and no longer depend on irrigation except for serious emergencies. Some say, the best things in life are free. In my reality this is true. I think you and Jack might share my reality with just a little encouragement. My next thought is how might others? I wish I knew. Most folks can't begin to even go where we are with regards to not using insecticides, balancing the soils, not using GMO's etc, etc let alone talking about energy, rainmaking, etc. We as farmers have backed ourselves into the addict's slot complete with huge overheads and bank notes to promote continual reliance on the drugs for the continued high of production. I can vouch for the fact that it takes a huge influx of equity to suck it up and take the cure. This process and system of farming is so much more difficult because you actually have to think for yourself. Not a common practice is conventional ag. It is so much easier to stop by the co-op and have them pull samples and tell you what you need, when you need it, then go put it on for you. Doing anything else might interrupt your golf game. And the products we are working with now have the tendency to try and grow in the tank (wow what a concept-vs salt based fertilizers, etc that sterilize the tanks) such as the teas, liquid fish mixes, molasses, etc. That has been unique to try and deal with on pumps, sprayers etc. So I really don't know how to convince anyone else about anything except to lead by example. You seem to be doing a great job of that. Best Regards- Michelle Wendell
Re: What is Magic?
- Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 12:41 PM Subject: Re: What is Magic? Hey Michelle, you have not short circuited, you have plugged in and your molecules are getting rearranged. You have asked for help and you are getting it. Keep doing what you are and questions will be answered, help will come when needed. Soon the same people that doubt your efforts will be asking for your help. Lead, follow, or get out of the way. Create Life and enjoy your New Farm...sstorch Dear Steve- I like your concept that I have plugged in and molecules are being re arranged. That sound much better than my concept that my brains have been thrown in the blender and puree'd. Thanks for your encouragement both on site and your thought on teas in Virginia. I hope someday I can share back something beneficial. Michelle Wendell
Re: What is Magic?
- Original Message - From: Jack Wendell [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 2:11 AM Subject: Re: What is Magic? Dear Lloyd- . I also wanted to ask you where in southern Australia you were. My husband is going on what I call his walkabout on Nov 30, and coming to look at your country. He is gathering info and wants to be able to consider moving our operation there. He is heartily fed up with our government programs, and the whole system here and says the exchange rate encourages a move your direction. So, am wondering if there might be any way he could visit with you while he is there? If so, please email me and we can set up some way to visit about it. Hi Michelle We are in the Northern Riverina area of NSW - about 6 hours drive due west of sydney - the Murrumbidgee river is a little south and the Murrumbidgee irrigation district south and west of us - Leeton is our closest town - 20 km and Griffith (the main service town for the irrigation district) is 65 km due west (11000 and 3 populations) - both have air services. We would be very pleased to have a visit. The country is looking pretty awful because of drought - one thing for sure, Jack will be a very old man before eastern Australia looks much worse than right now - there has been some rain in NE NSW and parts of southern Queensland and signs of a break starting to appear there but these winter rainfall areas in the south will most likely stay dry until next April. Maybe if you contact me off list with some more info - what type of farming systems Jack wants to look at, etc - we can help with some contacts - he is welcome to stay here if it fits the plan. Cheers Lloyd Charles
Re: What is Magic?/our farm is ....
Jack Wendell wrote: But my biggest concern is putting the wrong preps in at the wrong times for what is needed out there!?!?!? Hi! Jack, Congratulations on working on such a large scale, with what must be quite an investment. As for timing. Have you read both of Hugh Lovel's books? He lays it out in there and also if you go back through the archives of this site, he has covered here several times, also. Gil
Re: What is Magic?
Michelle Wendell wrote: My husband is going on what I call his walkabout on Nov 30, and coming to look at your country. Hi! Michelle, I am out side the sort of area you would be interested in looking at moving to, but I am happy to talk off line, if Jack wants some information. On this list, Cheryl Kemp [EMAIL PROTECTED] and James and Barbara Hedley [EMAIL PROTECTED] are involved in the National BD body and would be able to suggest areas to look at and local contacts. Also there are quite a number of practical BDers on this list. I would note that a lot of Australia is in drought, including the areas where some of the list members live, so many will not have their properties looking as they would like If Jack wants to phone me when here, my numbers are farm 61 8 86824779, town 61 8 86843698 and mobile 61 0427312401. Within the country, the 61 can be dropped and an 0 before the first 8 in the first two numbers. I am in Port Lincoln, mid way along the Southern Coast, in what may be called challenging country. Gil
Re: What is Magic?
- Original Message - From: Hugh Lovel [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 9:04 PM Subject: Re: What is Magic? Dear Michelle, If you can manage to make barrel compost and apply it via your irrigation system, you will be applying actual microi-organisms. Doing the irrigation water with radionic prep treatments will supply the patterns for those micro-organisms to succeed, but it won't apply the micro-organisms. Because the better species seem to be fairly widespread it may not make much difference. But on biologically dead soils it might. On your sandy soil I wouldn't want to place bets either way. One of our field broadcaster owners down on Florida has even sandier soil than you. Hers was almost pure sand 12 years ago when I first saw her farm. She's one of the reasons I'm selling field broadcasters and she has two of my earliest models and was the first to have horn clay patterns in her broadcasters. Now 6 years later her dairy farm is antibiotic free for 5 years, and hasn't bought in any fertilizers in 3 years. She's composting and using that as the input for her pure sand hayfields growing summer peanut and winter annual rye forages. She says she is almost at the point of grazing her dairy cows and completely getting off grain supplements. Her land has never looked better in the history of her dairy. And she is irrigating less. So sandy land can be good, even though I'd prefer clay. I bet you could grow good potatoes on your sand anyway. It's good to hear that your water is relatively nitrate free. As you keep nitrogen inputs to the minimum you can hope to maintain that. As for rainmaking, if anyone can put together a class, I'd like to see at least 30 attendees and go two days. I want to make $2,000 out of it, so with the hall and some catering, that comes to close to $100 per attendee. One of the frustrations I feel is that most people are so plugged into advertising and the pictures and totally engineered sales pitches in the major farm magazines. The picture looks so cool to have lemons wall-to-wall all bushy and green. But what is the point? Growing foliage or fruit? It's all so deceptive. The corn you showed me from in the past compared to the recent higher quality shows the true story, while, as you say the elevator doesn't pay any extra for the quality. That's pretty discouraging, knowing that if you grow responsibly you don't get(m)any breaks. I planted a couple acres or corn in an old hayfield this year, with just a field broadcaster, tillage and seed, and I got another good corn crop, comparable to what Is got on my own acreage the year before. I know I'm growing a big, tall open-pollenated flint corn that makes great corn meal but doesn't yield high. So I probably don't have 100 bushels to the acre, more like 60. I'm going to have to plant the usual hybrids to see what kind of yields I can really get with them in terms of bushels, but that rankles because my main interest is quality, rather than quantity. They aren't the best corn strains. But anyway I'm talking about rennovating hayfields and building up the organic matter with a crop of corn, and then returning the fields to hay--nosI planted this year showed early signs when the corn was only 8 inches tall, of phosphorus deficiency. The phosphorus was there and it was really copper deficiency, and with application of copper this field performed pretty good--some really good corn despite the fact it got off to a poor start. Usually getting off to a poor start is the death of corn, but this was just a little adjustment of $15 worth of copper sulfate crystals spread by my cyclone seeder. I'm going to plant 10 acres this way next year as a better test. But I'm clear that abandoning nitrogen inputs entirely are the direction we need to head in. I'm far from sure that we can all go there at once. But I'm clear that all of agriculture must go there as soon as possible. We've got the tools. Our homeopathic remedies and means for applying them are good enough already, though they may improve. We can create the conditions in virtually any soils to fix nitrogen out of the air and dispense with nitrogen fertilizers. And in the process everything we grow will improve in quality. This leaves us at no winning development, does it not? But it is a win to KNOW we can do a different agriculture with homeopathics and radionics, despite the fact that the market doesn't give us much advantage. Our slight advantage is that we know we can get our nitrogen out of the air and can make rain in timely fashion. I hope it's enough. Best, Hugh Visit our website at: www.unionag.org
Re: What is Magic?/Making Money
On 11 Nov 02, Hugh Lovel wrote: No doubt we all get to put up with a lot. But personally I have a tendency to be offended by such pitches. I guess I'm a reluctant huck, so I'm also a reluctant huckster. Hugh... woven through Roger's post was a thread that had nothing to do with hucksterism. Napoleon Hill's classic Think and Grow Rich parleys the theme to exhaustion. A common mistake is equating the _rich_ in his title, solely with money. In brainstorming mode... Rex
Re: What is Magic?/Making Money
Hugh Lovel wrote: So I pass the ball back to you and invite you to brainstorm with me how do I make this real to farmers? I guarantee they will make more money doing things the way I teach. How do I get the word out? YES!! RUSH me my instant *ULTIMATE* Dowsing and Rainmaking Kit in its Leatherette zip-up waterproof case PERSONALISED with my name and comprising Pendulum, Dowsing Rods and Miniature Radionic Broadcaster PLUS my detailed but easy-to-understand Instruction Book PLUS a Personal Introduction one FREE Pass to ___ 's next FABULOUS Rainmaking Workshop FOR ONLY $99.99*. I understand if I am one of the FIRST TWENTY applicants I will also receive a FREE Internet Directory of Global Biodynamic Resources and go into a draw to WIN $25,000** * plus post packing** conditions apply OR Dear Friend, I have specially chosen you from all my friends and acquaintances to receive this VERY IMPORTANT MESSAGE because I know you have the interests of Planet Earth very much to heart in all that you do. May I prevail upon you not to hit the delete key just yet for in all likelihood reading this email will cost you very little compared with the benefits it could bring to you and yours over the years to come. Believe me, this NEWS that I bring is so STUPENDOUS it fair takes my breath away whenever I think about it. In essence it is that for a very small outlay the BROWN expanse of 'lawn' out back of your place can become GREEN and stay GREEN for as long as you choose. All you require for this MIRACLE to occur is my Instant Rainmaking Kit together with easy-to-understand Instruction Booklet plus attendance at my next workshop, all available by return post at only $129.99* Should you decide you want to pass up on this WONDERFUL offer at this time, may I ask you to forward this message, unedited, to ten of your own friends, and include this request in it. Kind regards, * conditions apply *** OR as JC put it 'Cast your bread upon the waters and it will be returned a thousandfold.' *** Whilst one might say that if we knew the answer to your question, we would all be rich by now and probably not be members of this list at all, it would be simplistic in the extreme. BD agriculture has been around for almost a century; components of it date back hundreds (if not thousands) of years yet the vast majority of the world's farmers still practise conventional or other forms of agriculture. Why? Because there's no money to be made in BD the way it's set up. Think about it. A conventional farmer has 10,000 acres of land. To grow crops on it, he has to prepare the fields. Assuming he has the machinery, he will at the very least need seeds and fertiliser. A farm supply place will sell him both, the fertiliser will be chemical and supplied by an agribusiness or subsidiary which is part of a global setup. Where there's more than one applicable chemical, the 'best' will be recommended (or dictated) by Agric Department or council or farmers' association. The same applies to weedkillers and, for graziers, animal feeds and supplements. In some cases, fertilisers are bought 'on-the-ground', the price including spreading by the supplier to the farmer's requirements. A biodynamic farmer has 10,000 acres of land. To grow crops on it, he has to prepare the fields. Assuming he has the machinery, he will at the very least need seeds and BD preps. He can make his own preps for which he will need healthy compost of a particular mix and standard. He can make this too but it all takes time and he has repayments to make on the mortgage. So he will buy the preps in. For this he will need a listing of BD suppliers which he will get from his nearest association. He may have the equipment to mix and apply the preps; if not and he doesn't have the time or inclination to do it manually, he will have to bring in a contract sprayer. And so it goes. The BD preparations are good, we know that, but there isn't much profit there and the set-up is lousy. We know that too, if we're honest about it. I was in the air force for over thirty years, played more war games in NATO (Germany) than you could poke a stick at. The first step to victory was always the same - set up supply lines and depots and communications facilities. The second was information, loads of it. The next was personnel and equipment placement. In terms of preparation the battle was usually a set-piece and the least important. For BD to get ahead it needs an edge, even if it has to go outside BD to get it. Don't do things in isolation, package them. For instance, couple rainmaking sessions with workshops that farmers tell you are of value to them (even if they are not to you) like keeping their farms alive in drought or making ends meet on a reducing income or any number of other things. Use the internet to get to people. Produce information booklets and
Re: What is Magic?
Hi Loyd, I'm sure you could prep each tea brew as you set the brewing process going. Before that prep the composts that you are using for tea brewing and certainly keep the broadcasters going. Last year you posted that you had a measureable difference with a pentrometer where the broadcaster was working. Don't look for reasons why you can't do it, look for reasons why you can. Better still just do it and tell us how you got on. Very best of luck and good management, Peter. - Original Message - From: Lloyd Charles [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 10:49 AM Subject: Re: What is Magic?
Re: What is Magic?
In a message dated 11/10/02 10:37:34 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Most everyone here thinks I have short circuited somewhere. I guess what I wanted to say here is thank you for all of your thoughts on this site. I feel so strongly that I am supposed to be learning these things. Allan spoke in a recent post about creating sparks from your thoughts and I think you have helped me here. Much goes right over my head, but some I grasp on a deeper level than even I can really understand or explain. I am on a journey to find and support my intuitive nature (which is the real me) and disconnect from the logical side that I have had to learn to function in in my role here. Hard to do. Hey Michelle, you have not short circuited, you have plugged in and your molecules are getting rearranged. You have asked for help and you are getting it. Keep doing what you are and questions will be answered, help will come when needed. Soon the same people that doubt your efforts will be asking for your help. Lead, follow, or get out of the way. Create Life and enjoy your New Farm...sstorch
Re: What is Magic?/Making Money
Dear Roger, No doubt we all get to put up with a lot. But personally I have a tendency to be offended by such pitches. I guess I'm a reluctant huck, so I'm also a reluctant huckster. Best, Hugh Hugh Lovel wrote: So I pass the ball back to you and invite you to brainstorm with me how do I make this real to farmers? I guarantee they will make more money doing things the way I teach. How do I get the word out? YES!! RUSH me my instant *ULTIMATE* Dowsing and Rainmaking Kit in its Leatherette zip-up waterproof case PERSONALISED with my name and comprising Pendulum, Dowsing Rods and Miniature Radionic Broadcaster PLUS my detailed but easy-to-understand Instruction Book PLUS a Personal Introduction one FREE Pass to ___ 's next FABULOUS Rainmaking Workshop FOR ONLY $99.99*. I understand if I am one of the FIRST TWENTY applicants I will also receive a FREE Internet Directory of Global Biodynamic Resources and go into a draw to WIN $25,000** * plus post packing** conditions apply OR Dear Friend, I have specially chosen you from all my friends and acquaintances to receive this VERY IMPORTANT MESSAGE because I know you have the interests of Planet Earth very much to heart in all that you do. May I prevail upon you not to hit the delete key just yet for in all likelihood reading this email will cost you very little compared with the benefits it could bring to you and yours over the years to come. Believe me, this NEWS that I bring is so STUPENDOUS it fair takes my breath away whenever I think about it. In essence it is that for a very small outlay the BROWN expanse of 'lawn' out back of your place can become GREEN and stay GREEN for as long as you choose. All you require for this MIRACLE to occur is my Instant Rainmaking Kit together with easy-to-understand Instruction Booklet plus attendance at my next workshop, all available by return post at only $129.99* Should you decide you want to pass up on this WONDERFUL offer at this time, may I ask you to forward this message, unedited, to ten of your own friends, and include this request in it. Kind regards, * conditions apply *** OR as JC put it 'Cast your bread upon the waters and it will be returned a thousandfold.' *** Whilst one might say that if we knew the answer to your question, we would all be rich by now and probably not be members of this list at all, it would be simplistic in the extreme. BD agriculture has been around for almost a century; components of it date back hundreds (if not thousands) of years yet the vast majority of the world's farmers still practise conventional or other forms of agriculture. Why? Because there's no money to be made in BD the way it's set up. Think about it. A conventional farmer has 10,000 acres of land. To grow crops on it, he has to prepare the fields. Assuming he has the machinery, he will at the very least need seeds and fertiliser. A farm supply place will sell him both, the fertiliser will be chemical and supplied by an agribusiness or subsidiary which is part of a global setup. Where there's more than one applicable chemical, the 'best' will be recommended (or dictated) by Agric Department or council or farmers' association. The same applies to weedkillers and, for graziers, animal feeds and supplements. In some cases, fertilisers are bought 'on-the-ground', the price including spreading by the supplier to the farmer's requirements. A biodynamic farmer has 10,000 acres of land. To grow crops on it, he has to prepare the fields. Assuming he has the machinery, he will at the very least need seeds and BD preps. He can make his own preps for which he will need healthy compost of a particular mix and standard. He can make this too but it all takes time and he has repayments to make on the mortgage. So he will buy the preps in. For this he will need a listing of BD suppliers which he will get from his nearest association. He may have the equipment to mix and apply the preps; if not and he doesn't have the time or inclination to do it manually, he will have to bring in a contract sprayer. And so it goes. The BD preparations are good, we know that, but there isn't much profit there and the set-up is lousy. We know that too, if we're honest about it. I was in the air force for over thirty years, played more war games in NATO (Germany) than you could poke a stick at. The first step to victory was always the same - set up supply lines and depots and communications facilities. The second was information, loads of it. The next was personnel and equipment placement. In terms of preparation the battle was usually a set-piece and the least important. For BD to get ahead it needs an edge, even if it has to go outside BD to get it. Don't do things in isolation, package them. For instance, couple rainmaking sessions with workshops that farmers tell you are of value to them (even if they are not to you) like keeping their farms alive in drought or
Re: What is Magic?
- Original Message - From: Peter Michael Bacchus [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 7:51 PM Subject: Re: What is Magic? Hi Peter Thanks for the suggestions - we are just about to start some compost for next years pre sowing brews and I have proper preps for that. As for the second half of your message - nothing that a bit or rain would not have fixed - I did'nt realise my 'atttiude' was showing to this extent - or prhaps you are more perceptive than most? - thanks for the wakeup! Lloyd Charles Hi Loyd, I'm sure you could prep each tea brew as you set the brewing process going. Before that prep the composts that you are using for tea brewing and certainly keep the broadcasters going. Last year you posted that you had a measureable difference with a pentrometer where the broadcaster was working. Don't look for reasons why you can't do it, look for reasons why you can. Better still just do it and tell us how you got on. Very best of luck and good management, Peter. - Original Message - From: Lloyd Charles [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 10:49 AM Subject: Re: What is Magic?
Re: What is Magic?
Have a meeting for farmer on how to organize cooperative markets 2 people will come. Have a class on how to get 2 blades of grass instead of one you had better rent a huge hall. Maybe I missed the point of the above, Markess, but in our area, tell farmers how to make money fast (Joel Salatin, for example) and you'll fill the hall. Offer to tell people how to heal the earth and create foods of higher quality at the same time and very few are interested. Take the BIODYNAMIC CONFERENCE for example: right down the road from the BD Conference were TWO of the most famous organic farms in northern Virginia. Both heavily attended Salatin (i.e. one has 5 interns, the other 14 interns- almost all came for Joel), NONE attended the BD Conference. Like Merla, these folks were offered free passes so there would be no easy excuse to not attend at least portions of the conference. Although they all implied that they would be at the conference (heaven's - they didn't even have to cross the street!), none attended. We had a similar response to the Sustainable Ag video/discussion series. Very few interested in the philosophy and principles behind growing food in cooperation with Nature. A few of the big market people attended one of the presentations, but clearly just so they could find out who I was and what I could do for them in the short run. We got excellent exposure to the local farm community for all of these events. We have a N. VA farmer's discussion list, to which invitations and reminders were posted. I know the big mouths in local fruit and vegetable growing. No one attended, although the head of the market did make a reservation but eventually backed out. I'm talking market gardeners in the US' 3rd richest county. Little interest in a larger crop. Little interest in better produce but a lot of interest in selling more at better prices. My remarks above are in no way intended to malign Joel Salatin. His is the great synthesis: a way of farming that makes the land better and makes people more healthy while making more money for the farmer in a 9month work year. Catch him at ACRES this year, if you can. Later -Allan
Re: What is Magic?
Hello- I am new here and writing on this site makes my palms sweat, but I would like to say that I came from Nebraska to go to Allan's BD Conference in October. I felt pulled to it from the time I saw it offered in Acres USA and it was wonderful. I come from a checkered past of very conventional production agriculture and until 6 years ago believed this was the only way. When our field no longer grew decent crops even with massive doses of chemical inputs, we began our quest for a better way. It has been the most wonderful and difficult thing I have ever been involved with and we have fought an uphill battle all the way-personally and economically. I personally feel that my brains have been put in a Waring Blender and thoroughly scrambled. Nothing that I believed in belongs anymore. What I find is that I believe with all my heart and soul there is a better way. I am pulled so very hard towards the spirituality and connectedness of the bd concepts. But how to get there?!?!? I came home from the conference and made my own batch of barrel compost. I am on my way out now to our small greenhouse to stir a batch of bc using the preps that I bought at the conference for my own vegetables. Most everyone here thinks I have short circuited somewhere. I guess what I wanted to say here is thank you for all of your thoughts on this site. I feel so strongly that I am supposed to be learning these things. Allan spoke in a recent post about creating sparks from your thoughts and I think you have helped me here. Much goes right over my head, but some I grasp on a deeper level than even I can really understand or explain. I am on a journey to find and support my intuitive nature (which is the real me) and disconnect from the logical side that I have had to learn to function in in my role here. Hard to do.My dream is to be able to bring our farm to a place that you can just feel the positive beautiful growing energy on when you come here. We like to call it regenerational farming. Then to be able to share that with anyone that is interested to help them make changes and avoid some of the mistakes we have made. There isn't much room for mistakes economically any more. Is there a place for bd concepts in larger scale agriculture?? or do those two concepts totally oppose one another? See, here again confusion reigns. I agree with all of you that our earth desperately needs healing. Is it possible to use bd on larger operations? I am thinking of use of preps in our compost tea brewing process. We made and put on about 9 gallons of tea this past summer. I feel it could be a wonderful way to address larger operations. Not that I feel large operations are necessarily the correct approach, but to face the facts, that is what is going on in our world. And if there is a way to bring even a fraction of those folks towards healing the soil instead of destroying it, then there has to be someone to help show them that it can work. Well, once again thank you for your thoughts. I hope the spiritual world understands and helps those that struggle and are confused, because then there is hope for me! Michelle Wendell - Original Message - From: Allan Balliett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 6:18 AM Subject: Re: What is Magic? Have a meeting for farmer on how to organize cooperative markets 2 people will come. Have a class on how to get 2 blades of grass instead of one you had better rent a huge hall. Maybe I missed the point of the above, Markess, but in our area, tell farmers how to make money fast (Joel Salatin, for example) and you'll fill the hall. Offer to tell people how to heal the earth and create foods of higher quality at the same time and very few are interested. Take the BIODYNAMIC CONFERENCE for example: right down the road from the BD Conference were TWO of the most famous organic farms in northern Virginia. Both heavily attended Salatin (i.e. one has 5 interns, the other 14 interns- almost all came for Joel), NONE attended the BD Conference. Like Merla, these folks were offered free passes so there would be no easy excuse to not attend at least portions of the conference. Although they all implied that they would be at the conference (heaven's - they didn't even have to cross the street!), none attended. We had a similar response to the Sustainable Ag video/discussion series. Very few interested in the philosophy and principles behind growing food in cooperation with Nature. A few of the big market people attended one of the presentations, but clearly just so they could find out who I was and what I could do for them in the short run. We got excellent exposure to the local farm community for all of these events. We have a N. VA farmer's discussion list, to which invitations and reminders were posted. I know the big mouths in local fruit and vegetable growing. No one attended, although the head of the market did
Re: What is Magic?
Steve and others, don't you think Pheiffer field spray would be perfect in this case? There is at least one large scale BD grain producer in Nebraska, or am I confused, is Bob Steffan (Massena Farms) in Neb? What kind of farm do you have? My personal opinion is that there are many shining examples of large scale BD production, and that it is a matter of finding a good balance amidst the large acreage, not a question of whether small acreage or large acreage is better or worse.. Christy Korrow - Original Message - From: Jack Wendell [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 9:39 AM Subject: Re: What is Magic?
Re: What is Magic?
Dear Michelle Thanks for coming on the list with this post - We farm 2300 acres in southern Australia and are, like you, in the middle of trying to convert away from chemicals. Ours is only a small scale operation in commercial dollar terms, but we crop 1000 acres of dryland cereals, and getting things done properly is a major hurdle to the implementation of Biodynamics. There isn't much room for mistakes economically any more. Is there a place for bd concepts in larger scale agriculture?? or do those two concepts totally oppose one another? I am not usually one for quoting Steiner said but he did say the BENEFITS of the biodynamic preparations should be made available as quickly as possible to the largest possible areas of the entire earth - to me the major benefits are the regenerative forces contained in the preps and I choose to put those forces out over my land with a field broadcaster - at least that gets done - I think its more effective than the minimal amount of proper spraying required (in this country anyhow) for bd certification. - If you are dedicated and organised enough to do the sort of spraying program that Steve Storch talks about on this list, and get it done on extended acreage, thats a different story. See, here again confusion reigns. I agree with all of you that our earth desperately needs healing. Is it possible to use bd on larger operations? I am thinking of use of preps in our compost tea brewing process. We made and put on about 9 gallons of tea this past summer. I feel it could be a wonderful way to address larger operations. Not that I feel large operations are necessarily the correct approach, but to face the facts, that is what is going on in our world. And if there is a way to bring even a fraction of those folks towards healing the soil instead of destroying it, then there has to be someone to help show them that it can work I would be really interested in what you have done along the way as far as conversion goes - what results you got from the compost teas etc Cheers - and keep posting Lloyd Charles
Re: What is Magic? is it Jack
Go Go, Jack you are starting. I'm reading and have much to learn. Per Garp/NH - Original Message - From: Jack Wendell [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 10:39 AM Subject: Re: What is Magic? Hello- I am new here and writing on this site makes my palms sweat, but I would like to say that I came from Nebraska to go to Allan's BD Conference in October. I felt pulled to it from the time I saw it offered in Acres USA and it was wonderful. I come from a checkered past of very conventional production agriculture and until 6 years ago believed this was the only way. When our field no longer grew decent crops even with massive doses of chemical inputs, we began our quest for a better way. It has been the most wonderful and difficult thing I have ever been involved with and we have fought an uphill battle all the way-personally and economically. I personally feel that my brains have been put in a Waring Blender and thoroughly scrambled. Nothing that I believed in belongs anymore. What I find is that I believe with all my heart and soul there is a better way. I am pulled so very hard towards the spirituality and connectedness of the bd concepts. But how to get there?!?!? I came home from the conference and made my own batch of barrel compost. I am on my way out now to our small greenhouse to stir a batch of bc using the preps that I bought at the conference for my own vegetables. Most everyone here thinks I have short circuited somewhere. I guess what I wanted to say here is thank you for all of your thoughts on this site. I feel so strongly that I am supposed to be learning these things. Allan spoke in a recent post about creating sparks from your thoughts and I think you have helped me here. Much goes right over my head, but some I grasp on a deeper level than even I can really understand or explain. I am on a journey to find and support my intuitive nature (which is the real me) and disconnect from the logical side that I have had to learn to function in in my role here. Hard to do.My dream is to be able to bring our farm to a place that you can just feel the positive beautiful growing energy on when you come here. We like to call it regenerational farming. Then to be able to share that with anyone that is interested to help them make changes and avoid some of the mistakes we have made. There isn't much room for mistakes economically any more. Is there a place for bd concepts in larger scale agriculture?? or do those two concepts totally oppose one another? See, here again confusion reigns. I agree with all of you that our earth desperately needs healing. Is it possible to use bd on larger operations? I am thinking of use of preps in our compost tea brewing process. We made and put on about 9 gallons of tea this past summer. I feel it could be a wonderful way to address larger operations. Not that I feel large operations are necessarily the correct approach, but to face the facts, that is what is going on in our world. And if there is a way to bring even a fraction of those folks towards healing the soil instead of destroying it, then there has to be someone to help show them that it can work. Well, once again thank you for your thoughts. I hope the spiritual world understands and helps those that struggle and are confused, because then there is hope for me! Michelle Wendell - Original Message - From: Allan Balliett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 6:18 AM Subject: Re: What is Magic? Have a meeting for farmer on how to organize cooperative markets 2 people will come. Have a class on how to get 2 blades of grass instead of one you had better rent a huge hall. Maybe I missed the point of the above, Markess, but in our area, tell farmers how to make money fast (Joel Salatin, for example) and you'll fill the hall. Offer to tell people how to heal the earth and create foods of higher quality at the same time and very few are interested. Take the BIODYNAMIC CONFERENCE for example: right down the road from the BD Conference were TWO of the most famous organic farms in northern Virginia. Both heavily attended Salatin (i.e. one has 5 interns, the other 14 interns- almost all came for Joel), NONE attended the BD Conference. Like Merla, these folks were offered free passes so there would be no easy excuse to not attend at least portions of the conference. Although they all implied that they would be at the conference (heaven's - they didn't even have to cross the street!), none attended. We had a similar response to the Sustainable Ag video/discussion series. Very few interested in the philosophy and principles behind growing food in cooperation with Nature. A few of the big market people attended one of the presentations, but clearly just so they could find out who I was and what I could do
Re: What is Magic?/Making Money
Dear Allan, Your point is taken seriously by me. I got into farming because I wanted highest quality and I could see no one was into it. I want to make money but I didn't put it first. Nevertheless since my premise was to make my farming pay its own way as proof of its efficacy, money was high on my list. Still quality was first and I would have done alm0ost anything to achieve it. Paradoxically what I have found is that producing highest quality requires ceasing all bought inputs. Highest quality requires using the CHEAPEST of all methods, no fertility/disease (outside of my field broadcaster) inputs. With a field broadcaster one can produce food cheaper than any other method, because inputs are so much lower than any other method. Likewise with rain. Irrigation costs money, and the water quality never measures up to fresh rain. I've used my irrigation once in the past 13 years and that was 8 years ago. I've found that making rain is so cheap, practical and reliable that I will never go back to irrigation ever again. Why should I? Well, I personally WOULD irrigate if it produced higher quality, because I'm all about quality. But it does not, never has and cannot. Heck, I'd use muriate of potash if it produced quality, but it is ALWAYS a shot in the foot. The only way to get the highest quality is to get rain, and it is CHEAP! Radionic rain making amounts to doing almost nothing, and almost nothing is cheaper or more productive. So I pass the ball back to you and invite you to brainstorm with me how do I make this real to farmers? I guarantee they will make more money doing things the way I teach. How do I get the word out? Best, Hugh Lovel Have a meeting for farmer on how to organize cooperative markets 2 people will come. Have a class on how to get 2 blades of grass instead of one you had better rent a huge hall. Maybe I missed the point of the above, Markess, but in our area, tell farmers how to make money fast (Joel Salatin, for example) and you'll fill the hall. Offer to tell people how to heal the earth and create foods of higher quality at the same time and very few are interested. Take the BIODYNAMIC CONFERENCE for example: right down the road from the BD Conference were TWO of the most famous organic farms in northern Virginia. Both heavily attended Salatin (i.e. one has 5 interns, the other 14 interns- almost all came for Joel), NONE attended the BD Conference. Like Merla, these folks were offered free passes so there would be no easy excuse to not attend at least portions of the conference. Although they all implied that they would be at the conference (heaven's - they didn't even have to cross the street!), none attended. We had a similar response to the Sustainable Ag video/discussion series. Very few interested in the philosophy and principles behind growing food in cooperation with Nature. A few of the big market people attended one of the presentations, but clearly just so they could find out who I was and what I could do for them in the short run. We got excellent exposure to the local farm community for all of these events. We have a N. VA farmer's discussion list, to which invitations and reminders were posted. I know the big mouths in local fruit and vegetable growing. No one attended, although the head of the market did make a reservation but eventually backed out. I'm talking market gardeners in the US' 3rd richest county. Little interest in a larger crop. Little interest in better produce but a lot of interest in selling more at better prices. My remarks above are in no way intended to malign Joel Salatin. His is the great synthesis: a way of farming that makes the land better and makes people more healthy while making more money for the farmer in a 9month work year. Catch him at ACRES this year, if you can. Later -Allan Visit our website at: www.unionag.org
Re: What is Magic?
Hi! Roger, I remember some one once saying that if you consider yourself as a good communicator, try explaining to a South Sea Islander of the pre electronic communication days, what it would to be like to stand in a recess in a railway tunnel and have the Flying Scotsman come through at full speed Gil Roger Pye wrote: Merla Barberie said: I am going to learn how to dowse. I'm going to make me a ceramic piece for the end of the string. I'm going to dowse soil tests. What is magic? A skill we meet but haven't come across before, technology we haven't used or don't understand, concepts we may scoff at which actually do work.
Re: What is Magic?
- Original Message - From: Roger Pye [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 5:29 PM Subject: What is Magic? technology we haven't used or don't understand, concepts we may scoff at which actually do work. Hi All I just recieved from my radionic wazard / eco farmer friend, some photos of germinated double embryo Barley grown in southern Victoria Australia ( yep two full healthy shoots from one seed) - he has told me about it several times and probably sensed the scepticism in my voice hence the pics. If anybodys interested I can maybe send them off list (850kb word doc) Cheers all Lloyd Charles
RE: What is Magic?
Hi Lloyd : I am interested in seeing this picture. What may be the cause for it? Regards TaChung Huang (¶À¤j©¾) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Lloyd Charles Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 6:24 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: What is Magic? - Original Message - From: Roger Pye [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 5:29 PM Subject: What is Magic? technology we haven't used or don't understand, concepts we may scoff at which actually do work. Hi All I just recieved from my radionic wazard / eco farmer friend, some photos of germinated double embryo Barley grown in southern Victoria Australia ( yep two full healthy shoots from one seed) - he has told me about it several times and probably sensed the scepticism in my voice hence the pics. If anybodys interested I can maybe send them off list (850kb word doc) Cheers all Lloyd Charles
Re: What is Magic?
Hi! Lloyd Yes please, I would be very interested to see them. Gil Lloyd Charles wrote: - Original Message - From: Roger Pye [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 5:29 PM Subject: What is Magic? technology we haven't used or don't understand, concepts we may scoff at which actually do work. Hi All I just recieved from my radionic wazard / eco farmer friend, some photos of germinated double embryo Barley grown in southern Victoria Australia ( yep two full healthy shoots from one seed) - he has told me about it several times and probably sensed the scepticism in my voice hence the pics. If anybodys interested I can maybe send them off list (850kb word doc) Cheers all Lloyd Charles
