Re: Surprised?! - Hip and Elbow testing question
In a message dated 11/8/2002 7:28:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: So my question would be given this is really only an informational thing for myself and also others maybe BARC puppy. etc. What would others do? Go for the more expensive testing to begin with or just go to the vet? Hi Marilyn, There should be no difference between the hip aned elbow xrays taken by your vet and those done by the university except that that university can also do the PennHIP evaluation. Although I support the use of PennHIP for breeding purposes, in this situation, I don't think it's necessary to go to the extra expense of doing it. If you wait until she's 2 years old, then do conventional hip and elbow xrays and submit them to OFA (be SURE your vet knows the proceedure*), and on the submission form you check off the *OPEN DATABASE* option, you will have done the breed a service AND you'll have the advantage of knowing where Star's at orthopedically. As important as full litter evaluation is for breeding sounder bernese in the future, I think we sometimes don't realize how helpful it is to the pet owner to know their dog's orthopedic status. If you're lucky enough to have your berner with you for a long time, you'll most like run into some type of lameness at some point. Knowing the dog's status at 2 years of age helps a great deal to zero in on a diagnosis when the need arises. For example, when my 6 y.o. bitch showed mild lameness the vet's assumption (not my usual vet) was a hip problem. Because she had been fully evaluated (including PH) at 2 yrs, I was able to say with a fair degree of surity, look further, it's very unlikely to be hip dysplasia. I could say this because she was GDC Good with PH DI's of .30 .33 which is the 90th percentile in bernese. Instead of wasting time and money trying to confirm the 'presumptive' dx for lameness in large dogs, we were able to immediately go forward with other diagnostics. Likewise, for my stiff and ouchy 10-1/2 y.o when I brought her to the accupuncture vet for treatment of her hind end , his 'presumption' was hips. I was able to tell him not likely...this girl was OFA Good at 4-1/2 yrs...better to focus on hocks and knees. It's hard to explain really...I've just found that knowing the orthopedic status of my spayed girls has provided unanticipated benefits. THANK YOU for contributing to the breed in this way! :-D -Sherri Venditti
Fragility of breed/Consultations
So, am I to understand that if a young Berner gets 45 minutes of exercise instead of thirty minutes and eats Innova instead of Eukanuba or whatever, it has been doomed to a life of orthopedic problems? My point is, should a farm dog be this fragile in constitution? I always OFFER a consultation fee to my dogs' veterinarian when he talks to other experts or directly to the experts if I am the one who speaks to them and if they refuse such, depending on the circumstances, I might well send a check anyway. There is not a money tree in my backyard. I do it because it is the right thing to do. Lisa Allen Blessed with Berners since 1983! _ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
Histiocytomas
My Berner Jorda had a histiocytoma removed from her face at the age of eleven months. She lived for over twelve more years. Lisa Allen _ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
Re: Looking for vet
Hi Kevin, There are some very simple and clear cut options that I think will help you see this through. Here are my suggestions: I could not even get this second opinion dr to talk to me about it over the phone. The guy wanted me to shell out $60 just to have him tell me his opinion. Since the films were taken by your vet and sent for consultation by him, you should receive an actual diagnosis from your vet. If you paid for the consultation (via your vet), then you have every right to expect a written report of the findings of that consultation from your vet. IOW, the consulting vet reports to your vet who then reports to you. If the consulting vet took a look as a favor to your vet without charging a fee, then what you get is what you get and he has every right to charge for going any further. This all makes me very leery. I am happy to see all of your comments you all have made seem to coincide with what my breeder feels. I don't think our comments really support what your breeder is saying. We're saying 'You can breed clear to clear and still get and still affected puppy'. That's very different than being shocked and never heard of anything like this from any of his puppies. From my perspective, elbow dysplasia is so very prevalent in our breed that I doubt anyone who's bred more than a couple of litters could say that all their puppies were checked and all had clear elbows. Even if a breeder has an excellent track record for elbows, they hold their breathe with every mating because they know how common ED is. I am in the process of getting the films back and sending them to the breeder's vet for a more personable second opinion. If any of you have experienced anything similar and have some advice for me, please let me know. Elbows are very complex joints...so complex that a 'simple' term like elbow dysplasia actually encompasses (3) very different conditions. Personally, I'd submit the xrays to OFA. For $25 or so you'll have a written report of findings by a panel of Board Certified radiologists. That's a finding that most breeders will recognize as credible and unbiased. For $25, an OFA evaluation is the best bargain around! If you don't want to wait the 3-4 weeks for an OFA evaluation, then submit the xrays to the nearest veterinary teaching hospital (ie: Cornell, U. Penn, etc) for consultation. Personally, I wouldn't rely on ANY general practice veterinarian for interpretation of elbow xrays...it's not what they're trained to do. -Sherri Venditti
Joining a club?
How do we join a club? We live in York, PA. I looked at web sites and I think it was the Potomac club that was closest to us, but it said to join we needed two sponsors? We would like to start attending meetings and go to activities. Thanks, Carol __ Do you Yahoo!? U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos http://launch.yahoo.com/u2
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Ray's Red Berner!
Copper is featured in the Signature Berner Calendar!! Order yours today and support the Lobby Effort!! Order forms are available on the Lone Star Club web site http://www.angelfire.com/tx2/lsbmdc/ Thanks Ray!! Tina
Hip and Elbow Certifications
Would anyone have a bit of time to write up and explanation of the OFA and GDC certification numbers and how to read them, how to verify them, and anything else? I think it would be extremely helpful! Pat Long ( Luther) Berwyn PA
More on Hips and other fun things
Sharon said: Yes, there ARE reasons today for not trying to evaluate full litters... such as being LAZY, CHEAP, IGNORANT...preferring to keep one's head in the sand rather than dealing with reality. Trust Sharon to say it like it is! And I could not agree more... Why are we harping on this?? Because we care and because we believe knowledge is power. PPO's CAN change the practices of breeders by refusing to purchase a dog from someone who shows disregard for something so basic as orthopedics. Do you really want a puppy who has three of four grandparents without elbow clearances??? Trust me -the answer is no :) Do you really want a puppy from a mom who does not have elbow clearances, and who own mom did not clear elbows?? Why??? Because you like to play genetic poker with the deck stacked against you? Because you have lots of money to burn? Do you think hips do not matter? Ask someone who has spent thousands to repair a dog's hips and still has the arthritic dog to show for it... We want the new people to know that you will hear excuses for the lack of clearances -- don't fall for that. Bad orthopedics happen to everyone, and that is the only rationale that makes sense -- it happens. None of this crap about jumping off things or bad food or other silly excuses -- maybe occasionally a dog blows an elbow doing something stupid, but what about all the rest of a breeder's dogs? Besides, if the injury was bad enough to blow an elbow -- ask to see the vet report :) Be safe when buying a berner -- not rushed! And do not let your desire to have one of those cute puppies silence your critical thinking skills. Be a smart and informed consumer. Whole litter info is critical in understanding what is being produced in terms of orthopedics, and also says something about the level of commitment and integrity of the breeder. It is not that hard to get full compliance on x-rays if it matters to the breeder -- and why go to a breeder that doesn't care enough to know what s/he is producing??? Ask about ages of death of the close relatives of a puppy -- and causes of death. These days you might want to ask if the mother or father of the puppies has ever had cancer. Ask about eyes, but remember that unless whole litters have been done, clear eyes on one doesn't mean much. What about heart clearances? I had occasion to check out a litter for a family, and asked the owner of the sire if he had a cardiac clearance or was vWD free-- she replied that they did not have those problems. I reminded her -- as I remind you -- that one does not know whether a problem exists or not unless the testing has been done. Buying a puppy means more than just adding a dog to your family. When you decide on a breeder (or use someone's male), you are voting for his/her breeding practices -- you are saying that what/he is doing is just fine and should continue. Therefore, each of us has the opportunity to encourage or discourage breeding practices by the choices we make -- and that can work to promote breed welfare. Be informed, be careful and don't forget to think when you see those adorable puppy faces... Mary-Ann Bowman Utah
Werners
Anyone know Kelly and Roger Werner from Kansas??? Mary-Ann Bowman
Re: Dysplasia - Nutrition environmental factors.
Hi, Mary.Yeppers, definately nutrition can help a dysplastic or any ortho dog. Again take mine, a dozen super ortho vets said he would be crippled by a year, go look at my site, he runs , jumps, does stairs using the rear legs independent of one another , climbs on everything , stands on his rear and walks like a beartotally, totally nutrition done, nutrition including supps. It took me a year tho' to get the muscles to start developing but swimming, good old non weight baring exercise did it along with diet a close watch on what goes in directly has a effect on what shows outwardly. You can slow the progress of HD but not stop it if the genetic predisposition is there. A puppy needs proper exercise just as a child does to develop properly and strong, IF they have no genetic defect. But with the defect they need specific exercise and therapy to develop without causing more pain. Not locked up to atrophy the muscles but guided with the proper exercises , including massage to the inside muscles and ligaments of the thighs in an HD case. I also work on the fore limbs of my fella as they did take the brunt of his weight at the start and still massage them cause I don't want the elbows to go either! Yep, nutrition is a good thing but if you have the genetic predisposition to ortho nutrition won't prevent it just keep the inflammation and pain out, that is all. Rusty C Good Company
Re: Surprised?! - Hip and Elbow testing question
- Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] noteworthy. BARC puppy. etc. What would others do? Go for the more expensive testing to begin with or just go to the vet? Is there an ortho vet at the clinic? I have noted some of the outside breedings in some of the dogs a couple of years ago to have been good pedsGquestionable but worth checking into IF the parents were checked! This is in line with Sherri V's post , positioning is important but if it is an ortho vet they are usually good at being sure the xrays are done properly and Penn Hip is not necessary. On my HD fella I am doing the xrays for OFA but on the other two sound dogs so far, I will do Penn HIp. Okay my two cents Rusty C Good Company
BMD ad in Salt Lake paper
Hi, I think Mary-Ann Sontag-Bowman just posted about this ad. I talked to the person for quite awhile. The GOOD news is that he said he is taking the entire litter for early spay/neuter this Monday. He has one dog placed locally, still has 7 pups available. The parents have no clearances. Period. They think because they have European stock, sire from Hungary and dam from Russia, that they have avoided the health issues prevalent in U.S. breeding stock. I talked to him about the importance of at least getting OFA hips and elbows on his breeding stock, and he seemed receptive to the idea. His wife was not there, and she apparently is the one who manages the dog business. They don't belong to any BMD organizations because we run a kennel and they don't like that. I was glad to hear about early s/n in this litter and it does sound like they are open to education. Any local folks want to reach out to them? Vicky in Utah
Re: Escape artist
Hi Jennifer -- does that ever sound familiar! My Djinn has been doing that since she was four months old -- only my doors open inward. If I want her to stay outside, I MUST remember to lock the door! Maybe it's a Canadian thing Porter promptly walked over to the door, jumped up on the handle and voila the door was open!! Who needs a dog door??!! Susan Berlin Djinn and Riley Salt Spring Island, BC
Re: Hip and Elbow Certifications
OFA Radiographic Evaluation of Pelvic Phenotype With Respect to Canine Hip Dysplasia (***Starred categories indicate those which DO receive OFA certification) (GRADES GIVEN BY OFA) EXCELLENT HIP JOINT CONFORMATION*** superior hip joint conformation as compared with other individuals of the same breed and age. GOOD HIP JOINT CONFORMATION *** well formed hip joint conformation as compared with other individuals of the same breed and age. FAIR HIP JOINT CONFORMATION *** minor irregularities of hip joint conformation as compared with other individuals of the same breed and age. BORDERLINE HIP JOINT CONFORMATION marginal hip joint conformation of indeterminate status with respect to hip dysplasia at this time. MILD HIP DYSPLASIA radiographic evidence of minor dysplastic change of the hip joints. MODERATE HIP DYSPLASIA well defined radiographic evidence of dysplastic changes of the hip joints. SEVERE HIP DYSPLASIA radiographic evidence of marked dysplastic changes of the hip joints. Reading OFA X-Rays: If a dog is said to be OFA Certified it will have a Certification number issued by OFA. It will look like this but not exactly because each breed and each dog has differences. BMD-2731G34F The first three letters denotes the breed, in this case BMD. The next four letters in this example 2731 is the dog's individual number it could be as low as 1 if it is the first dog of that breed to be OFA Certified, or as high as they have given numbers out. Next is the letter G in this example. This denotes the grade they have given the hips. In this example G stands for Good. It could be any of these letters: E = Excellent Hip Joint Conformation G = Good Hip Joint Conformation F = Fair Hip Joint Conformation. These three are the only passing grades. The next two letters in the example denotes the dog's age, in months at time of evaluation. In this case 34 months. It will be 24 up to however old someone wants to submit x-rays. OFA will not issue a Cert. until at least 24 months of age. The letter at the end denotes the sex of the dog, in this case F is female. Obviously it will only be M for Male, or F for female. OFA has recently added another letter at the end after the sex. Now you will see T or a PI T denotes that the dog was not permanantly identified, another words no microchip or tatoo or DNA number. PI stands for Permanantly Identified. Having permanant identification assures that the dog brought in for x-rays is in fact the dog that that the owner identifies it to be on the form not a stand -in. There are (3) passing grades, Excellent, Fair, and Good. These all receive a number and certificate. There are (4) Failing grades - Borderline, Mild, Moderate, Severe Hip Dysplasia. The Borderline grade is usually given with a note from OFA asking you to re-x-ray the dog and re-submit those x-rays in X number of months. This is because (as outlined above) borderline does not receive a certificate and it is because the dog is deemed to have: marginal hip joint conformation of INDETERMINATE status with respect to hip dysplasia at this time. So.the dog is not passed, but failed because the hip conformation is unable to be determined. When the owners resubmit new x-rays they will either be given a Pass or Fail rating. Note: If a dog fails OFA or gets a low passing Grade the owners can resubmit x-rays over over to try and get the dog to pass. The X-rays are graded as compared with other individuals of the same breed and age. However if the x-rays are sent in on a dog at 24 months and the dog is rated Good and the owner resubmits at 36 months and the dog is rated Fair the lower rating will be recorded and listed for the dog. GDC certification numbers are basically the same as OFA numbers. Example: GDC15387H18EN The differences being: GDC = Genetic Disease Control 15387 = Individual GDC dog number H = Hips 18 = Age in months EN = Grade (Excellent Normal) GDC rated dogs with passing scores as: EN = Excellent Normal GN = Good Normal AN = Acceptable Normal GDC also certified dogs from 12 months of age and over. Elbows are rated on a pass or fail basis. OFA elbow numbers look like this: BMD - EL527 BMD= Breed EL = Elbow 527 = Dogs individual number. GDC elbow numbers look like this: GDC15387E18N GDC= Genetic Disease Control 15387= Dog's individual number E= Elbow 18 = Dog's age in months N= Normal To verify OFA and GDC numbers (Hip or Elbow) you can search at: GDC: http://canis.tamu.edu/gdc/search_dog2.asp OFA: http://www.offaorg/ofasrch.html Other countries including Canada have their own HD/ED registries and scoring systems. Maybe Rose can describe the Canadian scoring system and how it relates to OFA GDC??? Bernerly, Mary
some final thoughts on Flexi's
As usual, folks ideas on the value of the Flexi-lead depend on their own situations and their personal experiences. I am a devoted fan of the Flexi-lead, and used in the right settings, they can be wonderful. Since I live on a country road that dead-ends two miles past my house, has infrequent walkers at 6 AM when I am out with the girls, and has even less cars at that hour, Flexi's make it possible for me to walk four dogs at a time. Yes, four. While I prefer to do the three youngest first, and come back for two more on the second shift, while my 77 year old mother walks the two oldest on Flexi's, I can easily walk four at once, leaving home a dam with pups, or too pregnant for the distance (to be walked less far later), or the occasional limping dog who stepped in a hole in the back yard. Walking four, I can pick up poops dropped on the lawn of a neighbor - I try to deter this, but in the dark it sometimes does happen. If I walk the fifth dog as well, there is no stopping for poop-pickup - this requires a trip back with a bag. The key is everyone continuing to move *forwards* with *no going around behind me*. And a little bit of training works wonders, too. Leave it and move on are two of my choice phrases. I confess to an occasional bout of cursing as well. If this road had sidewalks to stick to, other people out walking dogs, or traffic such that we would have to hug the side, and not parade down the middle as we so, then Flexi's would no doubt be the wrong tool. But living where I do, and exercising the dogs as I do, my 6 Flexi's are exactly right. When out with the general public, or with a young untrained Berner, I much prefer a 6' leather lead for closer control. Libby Kesner and the Berner girls of Maine Voorheesville NY USA
Re: BERNER-L digest 4106 Surprised - Hip Elbow TestingQuestion
Hi Marilynn When the BARC littermate discussion was going on in June, I asked if there was any info on my BARC Guy Rocky. I was told that it looked like Star and Rocky were 1/2 brother and sister and that Jasper, Star and Rocky had the same father. I don't know if this is right as I have no information on Rocky other than he was born sometime in June and was included in the Nov. 10 rescue. As you are questioning what to do about hip and elbow x-rays, I thought I would pass this Rocky diagnosis on to you. In May, I took him to Dr. Lenehan, an orthapedic vet in San Diego who is highly recommended. (I had him examine my other dog Indy at 18 months old.) Here is his diagnosis: Rocky was x-rayed only as I see no reason to do a PennHip as it is obvious from the xrays that the hips are beyond salvage thru surgery. However, an incidental finding was a transitional L7 vertabrae. Dogs with transitional vertabrae at the lumbosacral junction are predisposed to cauda equina symptomatology later in life. This is a genetic condition and the breeder should be notified immediately. (He laughingly suggested setting up a trust fund for possible hip replacement surgery in the next few years. I don't mean to alarm you but I thought you should have this info just in case we are related. Gayle Cardiff By the Sea, CA From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Friday, November 8, 2002 3:27 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Surprised?! - Hip and Elbow testing question In a message dated 11/8/02 4:30:48 PM Canada Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Also, remember that while making sure that the parents of a new puppy have both hip and elbow clearances is important (from a recognized organization, not the local vet :) Hi, Having not done any of the test yet (hips, elbows, eyes.) I am most likely about to ask a very uninformed type question here My BARC baby, Star, is about a year and a half now. I had asked a few preliminary type questions related to testing of my vet. It was very nicely explained that my clinic could do hip elbow x-rays only or that, of course, I could get any testing I wanted down through the University of Minnesota including Penn Hip (? did I get that correct?) I say it was explained very nicely because there was no pressure to get it done either at my clinic or the University. They just took the time to say the U could do it all and they couldn't. Now, as the time has been getting closer to do the hips and elbows, I had been starting to lean towards just having my Vet do the normal x-rays. My reasons are strictly money based even though I haven't yet checked out the costs at all. My thoughts are going something like this Star is a BARC pup with questionable genetic lines. (as I haven't even bothered to check out what - if any - information is available on Star's parents She is spayed and will never be bred. She has never shown (so far) any issues that would lead me to expect any problems. This is my chance to learn more about the breed, by learning more about the testing and also a chance to give others who may have Star's siblings more information about the pup they have in general and the pup's family more specifically I am not saying that I have ruled out doing the more expensive test for hips and elbows it is more along the lines of why not learn what I can through the x-rays my vet does, after all, I could always do the other test at the U if something looks really noteworthy. So my question would be given this is really only an informational thing for myself and also others maybe BARC puppy. etc. What would others do? Go for the more expensive testing to begin with or just go to the vet? Many Thanks to you all :-) Marilynn and the Star baby. Minneapolis, MN
Re: Rambling about hips
Bravo...yes it is two producing HD not to be bred again and not taken out of the gene pool But if a breeder tells you not to 'responsibly' exercise your pup til twolike lock it up he is just way laying the xrays showing the dysplasia or bad elbows. Conscientious owners are necessary not to take a small babe to extremes but keeping a dog penned and no exercise will make fair hips that upon normal exercise will make severe SEVERE problems. But this is a work in progress, the only reason I opened my quiet not so little mouth was for the new owner sitting there with HD and thinking they had done something to hurt their pup...not so. I understand HD and do not hold my breeder responsible for it was a first time breeding and I had studied peds and clearances and waited for this dog SurpriseHD, so we learn. But also remember I would not give this dog back or euthanize himhe is exactly what I wanted except for the hips...I am not a breeder tho I have a full understanding of breeding, he has all the characteristics I wanted he is gorgeous loves me and understands every word I say...he would give his life for me, he is a Berner...just lacking in the ass. So PPOs take a lesson from me...unless you are willing to give your soul and pocketbook to a crippled dog, take a second third or later breeding that has clearances on more pups on the ground than 5 out of 40. And may I tell you that I am unable to locate the siblings to my HD fella.so beware, they are out there! Rusty C good Company
Re: More on Hips and other fun things
BRAVO! But on a first time breeding still give slack. But if the breeder does not want clearances on your dog back offthat should have been my red flag but it wasn't. Hey, Mary, Ya a breeder, put me on your list! Rusty C good Company
Re: Rocky and needs
If you would please write to me privately I would like to discuss Rocky and his therapy Rusty C
