Re: trying to get information
I've not had that experience in my dealings with the breeders I've gotten my dogs from. Normal or not, I wouldn't consider it acceptable. BUT, have you tried calling her? You must also consider the possibility of something being wrong at her end. Her computer is down. Family issues that need attention. Any number of things could be going on on her side. So before we crucify her, I'd try an alternative form of communication. Jenn Popp Healthy Paws Bones and Raw Food Diet http://www.healthy-paws.ca Toronto, Ontario (Canada) 416-264-1313 / email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: James and Karen Gross | My question is this: I have sent her several emails, | No matter how many emails I send her, or how I ask, I can not get her to | reply to my emails with the information. | Is this normal?
Re: Reggie
Oh gosh David, I'm so sorry to hear this news. You and your family must be beside yourselves. We will keep you in our thoughts and prayers in the coming weeks. I had a horse die of colic (horsey bloat) when I was away on vacation at Christmas (many years ago). And I felt the same way, that I could have saved her. But please release yourself from that quilt. You were great guardians and Reggie was well loved for his short time here. Jenn Popp Healthy Paws Bones and Raw Food Diet http://www.healthy-paws.ca Toronto, Ontario (Canada) 416-264-1313 / email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: David Schlesinger | We found out today the results of the autopsy on Reggie, our beloved 2 1/2 | year old BMD. ... We received the results this afternoon. He died from stomach torsion as a | result of bloat. We feel so guilty. If we had been here, maybe we Reggie | would still be alive.
birthday wish
I don't make a habit of using lists for birthday wishes, but I couldn't help myself. I'd like to wish the littermates of my Ziggy (Chasseron's Eazy Zigfriedt LBX*) a very happy and healthy 5th birthday (December 31, 1997). I just found some photos from a visit to see momma (Chasseron's Butterscotch Anna CDX TD) and babies. I hadn't seen those pictures in years, but I did see that there were quite a few of me with my Ziggy (at the time I didn't know he was the one coming home with us). Thanks Cindy and Georgina for my wonderful boy :-). Happy and healthy and hoping for 5 more years!!! Jenn Popp *LBX stands for love-bug extraordinaire Healthy Paws Bones and Raw Food Diet http://www.healthy-paws.ca Toronto, Ontario (Canada) 416-264-1313 / email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: raw meat bones question
I, personally, wouldn't leave a dog unattended with a bone of any variety. There is always the potential for bone chips to break off and become a choking hazard, no matter how indestructible they appear to be. Eight months is getting old enough to do some serious work on bones. Having given that disclaimer warning, I think the only 'safe' bone you should use for unsupervised chewing would be the dense marrow bones. Once the marrow has been licked out, you can then use things like peanut butter, cream cheese, regular cheese or any other food-stuffs you can put inside the shaft. Once you see pieces of the edge breaking off, you might want to replace with a 'fresh' bone with more moisture content and start all over again. The drawback to these dense bones is that they can do damage to teeth. I don't know that you'll find the perfect answer. What I do is walk my three for about 1 hour (leash free) in the morning. Then while I'm getting ready for work, they chew their beef NECK bones in the yard. I feed bones about 3 - 4 times per week but always while I'm home. The neck bones are curvy enough to still have plenty of meat on them. They're big enough to provide a safer bone chew, but they have smaller portions that can be broken off and again, become a choking hazard. Please stay away from pork hocks (I've heard the most choking stories involving pork hocks or feet). Rib bones are too easily chewed into nothing and the pieces I've seen look rather sharp. Better safe than sorry. Jenn Popp Healthy Paws Bones and Raw Food Diet http://www.healthy-paws.ca Toronto, Ontario (Canada) 416-264-1313 / email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> | hi there everyone! i know it's been a topic of discussion, but just to cut through any confusion, i was wondering which raw meat bones from the supermarket i could buy and safely leave my 8 month old puppy alone with? i already know that the marrow bones, the small ones, are pretty much unbreakable, but they don't have so much meat on them--so any other choices?
Re: socialization
I kind of knew I wasn't going to get a definitive answer. But I sure thought if there was one, I'd get it here. I imagine there are always too many variables to come to any conclusive answers. It's a lovely debate, though. I enjoy reading differing experiences. I can't imagine I'd ever be a good breeder. I'm too much of a control freak. I'd have every minute of the first year of the pup's life mapped out with what to do when, what to expect when, what school to go to, what to feed, when to alter, what shots to give, and when oiy vey!! Jenn Popp Healthy Paws Bones and Raw Food Diet http://www.healthy-paws.ca Toronto, Ontario (Canada) 416-264-1313 / email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> | So - you have no definite answer I think The answer is yes
Re: Socialization of Dogs
Well I do feel I found a great puppy school when we brought the third dog home. He has a web site http://www.beachescanineacademy.com that does go into the different periods of dogs. The first two dogs went to the same training school (pretty old school, now that I know better -- not choke collar old, by the jerk and praise methodology). But they are a GSD and BMD, so I can't compare them as they are totally different in just their different breeds. This puppy school even had an exercise called "pass the puppy" and we'd all sit in a circle and pass the puppies around to the next person and give them loving. An absolutely fantastic exercise, IMO. And I do feel that a good puppy school is critical. But it doesn't appear to be stressed as so critical. And a good school can do so much for the dog whereas a bad school can set the wheels in motion for continuing to handle situations poorly. Jenn Popp Healthy Paws Bones and Raw Food Diet http://www.healthy-paws.ca Toronto, Ontario (Canada) 416-264-1313 / email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: "JEvans" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> | There is a second fear period that dogs experience anywhere from between | about 4 to 10 months, lasting a few weeks, wherein the dogs are skittish even in | situations they had previously been fine in. | Also, IMVHO: a puppy class tailored to pups between ages about 8 weeks to | 4 months is the very best thing you can do for a dog! The good puppy class will be | structured for some puppy play time, lots and lots of socialization and desensitization to | people, noises, objects, surfaces and will use food to desensitize the pups | to scary things. (people in hats, with beards, children, vet procedures | (mock), other pups, puppy agility obstacles, etc!!) There would also be | good instruction on operant conditioning and teach the owners how to use | the techniques as well as work on bite inhibition and some basic obedience like sit, down | come. .
Re: socialization
Well this is it, Lisa. I wish I had known more about the fear periods when I had my first dog, let alone any dog that followed :-). I am 100% sure I didn't handle those fear periods well in all but the last berner. Each dog I've been better with but I did more reading between dogs (so to speak) and was much better prepared this last round. So that's what begged the question, was I a better owner/trainer for the third dog (in this particular pack) or was it luck of the [genetic] draw and I (or the training school) had little influence. If the dogs were even remotely similar, I might not be so curious. It's that they are polar opposite that I'm wondering how much breeding or training has to do with it. Jenn Popp Healthy Paws Bones and Raw Food Diet http://www.healthy-paws.ca Toronto, Ontario (Canada) 416-264-1313 / email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Lisa Baldwin | with some breeds there does seem to be a genetic problem that doesn't pop up | until the second fear imprint period. with dogs from these lines (we have | particularly noticed it in shelties & gsds) they hit that second fear | imprint period like a wall & recover slowly, if at all.
Re: Socialization of dogs
Excellent points Rose. The first berner does not show any fear when he ducks from an unwelcome pat. His tail is still up (he walks with quite the raised 'banner'). It appears as though he's saying "hey, I haven't given you the OK to touch me, I'm still checking you out." Not a bad thing by any means. And the one bark he belts out is quite a deep, throaty bark. Not continual, not annoying, just one "HEY" (in dog language sound like a bark :-)). And like I said he's VERY cuddly with those he knows. The second berner is still young (18 months), and like I said, the 'baby' of the family. He's got two older ones who seem to do a fine job of being reserved. He may become more aloof, or he may stay his same goofy self. Either is fine. As with everything in dog-dome, I find behaviour of dogs so fascinating. And because the variables had changed so drastically between both dogs, I was wondering what they were born with and what they get from training class, and the rest of life experiences. Jenn Popp Healthy Paws Bones and Raw Food Diet http://www.healthy-paws.ca Toronto, Ontario (Canada) 416-264-1313 / email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: "Rose Tierney" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> You say your first dog is initially reserved with strangers but mushes up with them once he knows them. This type of character is perfectly normal and what one should expect with a breed that has a watchdog heritage. ...If your second dog is the goon that wiggles and smooches up from the get go he is actually a more submissive dog, which is sounding like it suits you perfectly.
Socialization of dogs
Ok, I've got a general question for the wealth of berner knowledge on this list. And I'm sure this question will be one of those that had widely opposing views, so be kind to Pat and don't get nasty. Here goes I remember when I got my first berner (5 years ago) some admirers of the breed I'd meet along the way would comment on the temperament they saw creeping into, what used to be, a very friendly breed. That temperament being shier, more aloof, less approachable, etc. As I always do, I brought my new berner to obedience school (at 3 months) and socialized him with other animals, adults and children (as well as traffic, trucks, etc.). I would have thought I had done a good job of exposing him to different things as he grew up. But then at around 9 months, he started showing signs of the very behaviour I described above. He will approach anyone he doesn't know with reserve and don't dare pet him until he says it's OK. Reach out to pat his head and he will jump back and possibly bark. Once he knows a person, he's more loveable than any berner on the planet. He actually squeaks if he's happy to see someone he knows. Now my second berner is the polar opposite. He does the full body wiggle as he approaches ANYONE. But he went to three levels of what I'd call a better obedience school. I even went as far as bring him at 9 weeks of age because I believed the risk of him contracting some puppy disease was less of a worry than him being under socialized. (Now that's not the point of the story, so don't anyone start ranting about this aspect, as I would do it again.) So my questions are: Is it just genetics that determine this type of trait? Is it the socialization at a very young age? Does the puppy school make that much of a difference in the social behaviour of dogs? Can anyone shed any light on this?? Some notes: I'm not saying either way is right, I'm just wondering what would determine such a huge variance in social behaviour. Second note: each berner is from a different breeder with (probably) no ancestral links in their pedigree. Third note, both are altered males, one altered at 1 year, one at 5.5 months. First berner was not first dog, we have a GSD that is three years older than the first berner -- each dog is approximately three years difference in age. I'd have to say, I'm not a dog idiot, I have read many books on training and dog behaviours and my training is based on positive rather than negative. Is it just that the owner gets that much better with each dog they add to the family?? Jenn Popp Healthy Paws Bones and Raw Food Diet http://www.healthy-paws.ca Toronto, Ontario (Canada) 416-264-1313 / email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Looking for Stepping Stone
Dag-nab-it, Kim. There is a site that sells dog stepping stones. I think it came up here a couple of years ago. I'll search my favourite links, but can't promise anything. I'll post if I find it. Jenn Popp Healthy Paws Bones and Raw Food Diet http://www.healthy-paws.ca Toronto, Ontario (Canada) 416-264-1313 / email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: "Kim Morrow" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> | I'd like to buy my neighbor a Berner stepping stone for Xmas but I'm not | having any luck finding one.
Re: Christmas Shopping, Berner Stuff
Pat you are an absolute DOLL for posting all these links. I was JUST thinking of asking the list for referral sites. Particularly Christmas cards (I know it's come up before, but neglected to save the link :-( ). Thanks again, (P.S., I don't think there is a another list moderator on the whole internet who does such a bang-up job!!). Jenn Popp Healthy Paws Bones and Raw Food Diet http://www.healthy-paws.ca Toronto, Ontario (Canada) 416-264-1313 / email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: "Pat Long & Paul Dangel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> | | Anyway, it's there with new items - all of which I probably need. I'm | sure the other Berner sites have done the same, now to check all of them | to update my Christmas list - it just keeps getting longer.
Re: re; Bloemart's
I'd like to think that was an attempt at humour. Jenn Popp Healthy Paws Bones and Raw Food Diet http://www.healthy-paws.ca Toronto, Ontario (Canada) 416-264-1313 / email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: "mtndog" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> | | I recently saw one of their puppies at the International show last weekend, | and was envious at the quality of this puppy. He was VERY nice, well bred, | with good structure and outstanding temperment. | | If this is what "backyard breeders" are producing, then bring them | on.it's a damned sight better than what I have seen coming from | "reputable" kennels!!
Re: Looking for a Flint River distributor on the list.
Ray Burgett is a FRR distributor and he's on this list. Ray & Pat Burgett Eaglecap Bernese [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.goodbernerfood.com Jenn Popp Healthy Paws Bones and Raw Food Diet http://www.healthy-paws.ca Toronto, Ontario (Canada) 416-264-1313 / email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: "Jennifer Delannoy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> | | I thought I saw a few times an email for Flint River under someone's | signature. If anyone is on the list please contact me.
Re: Rescue Berner -- foster home needed ASAP!
I may get flamed for this but the Bloemart's are known for their [B.Y.] Breeding practices. They used to be in Ontario, don't know why they moved -- maybe they had to?? But now they are the 'ward' of the Alberta club :-(. Jenn Popp Healthy Paws Bones and Raw Food Diet http://www.healthy-paws.ca Toronto, Ontario (Canada) 416-264-1313 / email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: "Pat Long & Paul Dangel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> | | >>In NJ -- 18 month, male, neutered, bred by Grace Bloemart in Alberta, | Canada.
Re: Skeletal Diseases of the Growing Dog
I see snippets in some posts that have set off bells in my head. I think I totally misinterpreted the discussion about HD and nutrition. >From reading a few recent posts, it appears the concern is using nutrition as an 'out' for unwise breeding practices. I surely think that is a most unfortunate practice. And I can sure see how you'd never want to have those two lines cross. I guess my point was more benign that that I was merely suggesting that the possibility of HD as a result of poor nutrition was a possibility. Not so much that one should use it as a loophole in their breeding program. I sure don't know how breeders can go on doing what they do. It just seems there is a big handful of 'breeders' out there that, if I was a breeder, I'd want to ring their necks. I'm sorry if I've stirred up something that didn't need to be stirred up. To defend HD as genetic for that reason alone, seems sound (excuse the pun). But I'd imagine in our quietest hours, we all know improper nutrition can definitely cause skeletal abnormalities. Jenn Popp Healthy Paws Bones and Raw Food Diet http://www.healthy-paws.ca Toronto, Ontario (Canada) 416-264-1313 / email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Sharon Montville | | The posts I have read on the topic are not slamming | individuals, but are attempting to remove the | "nutrition loophole" that so many breeders rely on.
Re: the nature/nurture HD discussion
Sharon wrote: | I don't think Mary-Ann is being close-minded about the | impact of nutrition on development of HD. Nutrition | can and does have an impact - but it is NOT the root | cause of HD - GENETICS is the cause. Mary-Ann is | absolutely right that breeders need to take | responsibility instead of wagging their finger at the | poor pup owner, who by the way is the one who will be | the most impacted. | | It is fine to mention that nutrition is important. | But when the statement "HD is a genetic disease" is | omitted, this just gives breeders license to make | dicey breeding decisions and keep raking in the big | bucks for carelessly bred puppies. ***The point I am trying to make is that nutrition can cause HD in a dog. It is possible to improperly feed a puppy during it's developmental years and have a dog that has messed up hips as a result. I would never suggest that HD is not genetic, I don't think anyone could dispute that. But to say it's genes and only genes is (obviously in my opinion) incorrect. Nutrition can be responsible for a plethora of skeletal and joint diseases in dogs. One of these problems is hypertrophic osteodystrophy, which by definition means excessive nutrition resulting in bone malnutrition. Excessive intake of protein, energy, calcium and phosphorus accelerates growth and induces the problem. Many degenerative diseases of bones and joints have a common basis. And no one questions the fact that dogs inherit a tendency to develop these diseases. However nutrition, particularly excesses, affects bone development in many ways that are detrimental. Jenn Popp Healthy Paws Bones and Raw Food Diet http://www.healthy-paws.ca Toronto, Ontario (Canada) 416-264-1313 / email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Appology to Mary-Ann
Mary-Ann you are sweet beyond words. Thank you for your comments :-) -- Gosh, I've got tears welling up in my eyes. As Karen Connors would say, I'm a marshmallow :-) Jenn Popp Healthy Paws Bones and Raw Food Diet http://www.healthy-paws.ca Toronto, Ontario (Canada) 416-264-1313 / email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Mary-Ann Bowman | Each of us has strong feelings about some topics but we | share a common commitment to the breed we love.
Appology to Mary-Ann
Mary-Ann I made a comment to you in a previous post that was childish and flippant. I apologize for being so boorish. I truly regret the tactic in which I approached the subject of nutrition and HD. Jenn Popp Healthy Paws Bones and Raw Food Diet http://www.healthy-paws.ca Toronto, Ontario (Canada) 416-264-1313 / email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Diet-related skeletal and joint diseases in dogs, was Innova -- HATE IT!
There will be breeders that do not take responsibility for selecting the best specimens for their breeding program and there are those who do. To even suggest that by placing at least some of the blame on nutrition would give these reputable breeders an 'out' is quite a statement. I too believe we need to do our best in eliminating genetic problems, but I don't believe the buck stops at breeding practices. The possibility that nutrition can be a contributing factor to skeletal development would, in my opinion, make both breeder and puppy owner make sound decisions beyond who the parents are. Surely you don't suggest that we pick the best breeding pair and leave it at that? Why then, are some breeders adamant about feeding said puppies well into their adult years? If I remember correctly, I was sent home with specific feeding instructions when I got my first dog. Jenn Popp Healthy Paws Bones and Raw Food Diet http://www.healthy-paws.ca Toronto, Ontario (Canada) 416-264-1313 / email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Mary-Ann Bowman | The problem with perpetuating inaccurate information about the origins of HD | is that it allows breeders to blame puppy owners for HD, and to not take | responsibility for their breeding decisions. I believe we have a responsibility to do our best to avoid | producing genetic problems
Re: Diet-related skeletal and joint diseases in dogs, was Innova -- HATE IT!
Mary-Ann, thanks for that very informative information from the OFA. I may be misreading your tone, but you come across as rather defensive. You'd think I suggested Many-Ann Bowman has caused nutritionally induced HD in her dog(s) :-). I suppose it would be a glorious thing if everything was that cut and dry. But when we allow ourselves to step outside our comfort zones, new information might seep in. C'mon Mary-Ann, you're bright enough to allow yourself to think just *maybe* there is something else to consider here. If we close a book based on 'current' findings, where would that leave any scientific advancements? Jenn Popp Healthy Paws Bones and Raw Food Diet http://www.healthy-paws.ca Toronto, Ontario (Canada) 416-264-1313 / email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Mary-Ann Bowman | Let's just see what OFA has to say about this -- this is from their website...
Diet-related skeletal and joint diseases in dogs, was Innova -- HATE IT!
I'm a little late on the thread of hip dysplasia being genetic in nature, but thought I'd chime in here anyway. Someone mentioned that hip dysplasia is genetic and is not caused by nutrition [end of story]. But I'd like to offer a differing opinion on that... Hip dysplasia is a disease of development; puppies are not necessarily born with it. The problem can develop during rapid growth in larger sized animals. Containing growth rate reduces both the frequency and severity of HD in dogs. Most processed dog foods indicate feeding larger breed dogs greater amounts than their metabolism can process (called the fudge factor). This is done to ensure the pup receives adequate nutrition but results in overfeeding and obesity. This, of course, is incompatible with the development of optimal skeletal growth. Nutrition alone does not decide the final size of an adult dog. Underfed puppies eventually grow to the same size as overfed ones. Studies on overfeeding to promote weight gain in GSDs during the first two months of life showed an increased incidence of HD at a later age. Many degenerative diseases of bones and joints have a common basis. And dogs do inherit a tendency toward these diseases. However, nutrition -- specifically excesses of energy, specific vitamins, minerals and to some extent proteins -- affects bone development in many ways that are mostly detrimental. Nutrition does affect the development of HD and other problems, problems that proper feeding can control. Jenn Popp Healthy Paws Bones and Raw Food Diet http://www.healthy-paws.ca Toronto, Ontario (Canada) 416-264-1313 / email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
