Re: Socialization of dogs
Excellent points Rose. The first berner does not show any fear when he ducks from an unwelcome pat. His tail is still up (he walks with quite the raised 'banner'). It appears as though he's saying hey, I haven't given you the OK to touch me, I'm still checking you out. Not a bad thing by any means. And the one bark he belts out is quite a deep, throaty bark. Not continual, not annoying, just one HEY (in dog language sound like a bark :-)). And like I said he's VERY cuddly with those he knows. The second berner is still young (18 months), and like I said, the 'baby' of the family. He's got two older ones who seem to do a fine job of being reserved. He may become more aloof, or he may stay his same goofy self. Either is fine. As with everything in dog-dome, I find behaviour of dogs so fascinating. And because the variables had changed so drastically between both dogs, I was wondering what they were born with and what they get from training class, and the rest of life experiences. Jenn Popp Healthy Paws Bones and Raw Food Diet http://www.healthy-paws.ca Toronto, Ontario (Canada) 416-264-1313 / email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Rose Tierney [EMAIL PROTECTED] You say your first dog is initially reserved with strangers but mushes up with them once he knows them. This type of character is perfectly normal and what one should expect with a breed that has a watchdog heritage. ...If your second dog is the goon that wiggles and smooches up from the get go he is actually a more submissive dog, which is sounding like it suits you perfectly.
Re: Socialization of Dogs
Well I do feel I found a great puppy school when we brought the third dog home. He has a web site http://www.beachescanineacademy.com that does go into the different periods of dogs. The first two dogs went to the same training school (pretty old school, now that I know better -- not choke collar old, by the jerk and praise methodology). But they are a GSD and BMD, so I can't compare them as they are totally different in just their different breeds. This puppy school even had an exercise called pass the puppy and we'd all sit in a circle and pass the puppies around to the next person and give them loving. An absolutely fantastic exercise, IMO. And I do feel that a good puppy school is critical. But it doesn't appear to be stressed as so critical. And a good school can do so much for the dog whereas a bad school can set the wheels in motion for continuing to handle situations poorly. Jenn Popp Healthy Paws Bones and Raw Food Diet http://www.healthy-paws.ca Toronto, Ontario (Canada) 416-264-1313 / email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: JEvans [EMAIL PROTECTED] | There is a second fear period that dogs experience anywhere from between | about 4 to 10 months, lasting a few weeks, wherein the dogs are skittish even in | situations they had previously been fine in. | Also, IMVHO: a puppy class tailored to pups between ages about 8 weeks to | 4 months is the very best thing you can do for a dog! The good puppy class will be | structured for some puppy play time, lots and lots of socialization and desensitization to | people, noises, objects, surfaces and will use food to desensitize the pups | to scary things. (people in hats, with beards, children, vet procedures | (mock), other pups, puppy agility obstacles, etc!!) There would also be | good instruction on operant conditioning and teach the owners how to use | the techniques as well as work on bite inhibition and some basic obedience like sit, down | come. .
Re: Socialization of dogs
One of the reasons for the different breeds in my house is I love the personalities. The way you describe your first Berner, Jenn, reminds me of my Leo, Cowboy. Cowboy is a thinker, a very smart boy, CGC in nothing flat, clicker trained easily. Bored easily. He loves people, but when first approached, with tail wagging, he ducks when a stranger reaches out to pat his head. Doesn't move his feet, doesn't stop wagging his tail, but like your pup he's almost saying-geez, wait a minute, I don't even know you. This is one of the few times he doesn't bark or talk in any way. He seems to want a chance to sniff first. Now, once he knows you, don't you even think of ignoring him or he will grumble, woo hoo, bark, whatever it takes. He's a hoot! I will never forget being out on the back porch one morning early drinking my coffee when I hear a faint cry of my visiting sister for Help! coming from the house. I walk in to see my sister on the stair landing, and 5 big, grinning ear to ear dogs waiting for her to come down the rest of the way! Cowboy in particular vocalizing his delight to my sister's horror. No way was she coming down stairs without me there. We laughed and laughed and I forever tease her about my big, bad dogs trapping her. Right now I am totally in love with my Pyr, Bean. He is my oldest and for some reason is getting a little more demonstrative and playful. He'll come up and touch me with his nose, just a little shove. He has a look in his eyes and a grin, wanting me to get up and chase. This means chase about 6 feet at the most before I grab him in a bear hug, tell him how much I love him, and give him a great back, butt scratching. Ah, it's heaven to this guy. Now while all this is going on we are surrounded by the black boys (the Berners-we are racially blended, obviously!), bouncing, bouncing , bouncing me, me, me next attitude! Freckles is generally barking non stop while we all ignore him (Damn it you guys, I am small but have a mighty bark! Pay Attention) Zeke will most likely jump on the couch and flop back wards with big, looking like beer belly, pointing to the ceiling. One of these days I expect him to reach down and scratch his privates and belch! Weaver will be looking soft, reaching out with one paw quietly, asking Can I have just a little? I don't like all this noise but I do love you and would like a cuddle. okay, it's a zoo, but I love it! jane heggen the boys of iowa (who are all very different with one mom)
RE: Socialization of dogs
Hi Jenn, I don't know your dogs so can't gauge their full temperament and character but the standard does allow for a degree of reservation. You say your first dog is initially reserved with strangers but mushes up with them once he knows them. This type of character is perfectly normal and what one should expect with a breed that has a watchdog heritage. He is not supposed to throw down the welcome mat for all but when he sees that person is acceptable to you allows himself to be handled, that is a good watchdog. Providing the dog is not rolling his eyes, ducking his head to one side and jamming his tail up his crotch but standing with presence (not hackled or growling) it wouldn't bother me if he chose to act the protector when approached by a stranger but I would expect him to relax quickly which your post implies your first dog does. If your second dog is the goon that wiggles and smooches up from the get go he is actually a more submissive dog, which is sounding like it suits you perfectly. He may actually read your body language quicker and realise all is well, does he still overgreet people who you are not comfortable with?? This might make an easy affable pet for you but not likely to protect you from the mad axman! Rose Tierney -Original Message- From: Jennifer Popp [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: December 19, 2002 7:22 PM To: Bernese Mountain Dog Mailing List Subject: Socialization of dogs Ok, I've got a general question for the wealth of berner knowledge on this list. And I'm sure this question will be one of those that had widely opposing views, so be kind to Pat and don't get nasty. Here goes I remember when I got my first berner (5 years ago) some admirers of the breed I'd meet along the way would comment on the temperament they saw creeping into, what used to be, a very friendly breed. That temperament being shier, more aloof, less approachable, etc. As I always do, I brought my new berner to obedience school (at 3 months) and socialized him with other animals, adults and children (as well as traffic, trucks, etc.). I would have thought I had done a good job of exposing him to different things as he grew up. But then at around 9 months, he started showing signs of the very behaviour I described above. He will approach anyone he doesn't know with reserve and don't dare pet him until he says it's OK. Reach out to pat his head and he will jump back and possibly bark. Once he knows a person, he's more loveable than any berner on the planet. He actually squeaks if he's happy to see someone he knows. Now my second berner is the polar opposite. He does the full body wiggle as he approaches ANYONE. But he went to three levels of what I'd call a better obedience school. I even went as far as bring him at 9 weeks of age because I believed the risk of him contracting some puppy disease was less of a worry than him being under socialized. (Now that's not the point of the story, so don't anyone start ranting about this aspect, as I would do it again.) So my questions are: Is it just genetics that determine this type of trait? Is it the socialization at a very young age? Does the puppy school make that much of a difference in the social behaviour of dogs? Can anyone shed any light on this?? Some notes: I'm not saying either way is right, I'm just wondering what would determine such a huge variance in social behaviour. Second note: each berner is from a different breeder with (probably) no ancestral links in their pedigree. Third note, both are altered males, one altered at 1 year, one at 5.5 months. First berner was not first dog, we have a GSD that is three years older than the first berner -- each dog is approximately three years difference in age. I'd have to say, I'm not a dog idiot, I have read many books on training and dog behaviours and my training is based on positive rather than negative. Is it just that the owner gets that much better with each dog they add to the family?? Jenn Popp Healthy Paws Bones and Raw Food Diet http://www.healthy-paws.ca Toronto, Ontario (Canada) 416-264-1313 / email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Socialization of Dogs
So my questions are: Is it just genetics that determine this type of trait? Is it the socialization at a very young age? Does the puppy school make that much of a difference in the social behaviour of dogs? Can anyone shed any light on this?? Certainly a genetically timid dog could show the behaviors you mention, and even if well socialized can still show fear. If the dog lacks socialization in early critical periods or experiences trauma (that can be different for each dog!) in a fear period, then the dog can later have problems specific to that trauma or even generalized, *global* fear. There is a second fear period that dogs experience anywhere from between about 4 to 10 months, lasting a few weeks, wherein the dogs are skittish even in situations they had previously been fine in. Trauma in that period can also have negative effects on the dog. It's important during both the early period and later to keep things upbeat and safe for the dog. Giving lots of praise for desired behaviors with food rewards, not forcing a dog to go up to someone or accept petting, and also _not_ coddling the fearful/timid responses is helpful. To most dogs, food = good, so they make the association that: person approaching means I get lots of really yummie food while I sit calmly, paying attention to my owner, cool! If they are too afraid to take food or about to harm themselves or others or threaten to do so, then get them out of the situation and find someone/some way to work with you and the pup to make life as good as it can be! (I'm talking about *you* in general, not Jennifer) On the other hand, some more assertive, friendly dogs might miss all opportunity for socialization and still turn out to be the best therapy dog ever. It really can be due to genetics or experience. Also, IMVHO: a puppy class tailored to pups between ages about 8 weeks to 4 months is the very best thing you can do for a dog! The good puppy class will be structured for some puppy play time, lots and lots of socialization and desensitization to people, noises, objects, surfaces and will use food to desensitize the pups to scary things. (people in hats, with beards, children, vet procedures (mock), other pups, puppy agility obstacles, etc!!) There would also be good instruction on operant conditioning and teach the owners how to use the techniques as well as work on bite inhibition and some basic obedience like sit, down come. There would not be any punishment nor choke or prong collars used. The pups will learn to offer behaviors and owners learn that their job is to pick which ones to reward. A pup's development can also be affected/enhanced by earlier experience provided not only by the litter and mother, but by the breeder. Things like handling, exposure to temperature changes (brief), while the pups are quite young have been shown to enhance later development! That's way more than I intended to write, but I just think that good puppy classes do so much good for pups and owners that I got a little carried away Jill with Indie and Gabby
Socialization of dogs
Ok, I've got a general question for the wealth of berner knowledge on this list. And I'm sure this question will be one of those that had widely opposing views, so be kind to Pat and don't get nasty. Here goes I remember when I got my first berner (5 years ago) some admirers of the breed I'd meet along the way would comment on the temperament they saw creeping into, what used to be, a very friendly breed. That temperament being shier, more aloof, less approachable, etc. As I always do, I brought my new berner to obedience school (at 3 months) and socialized him with other animals, adults and children (as well as traffic, trucks, etc.). I would have thought I had done a good job of exposing him to different things as he grew up. But then at around 9 months, he started showing signs of the very behaviour I described above. He will approach anyone he doesn't know with reserve and don't dare pet him until he says it's OK. Reach out to pat his head and he will jump back and possibly bark. Once he knows a person, he's more loveable than any berner on the planet. He actually squeaks if he's happy to see someone he knows. Now my second berner is the polar opposite. He does the full body wiggle as he approaches ANYONE. But he went to three levels of what I'd call a better obedience school. I even went as far as bring him at 9 weeks of age because I believed the risk of him contracting some puppy disease was less of a worry than him being under socialized. (Now that's not the point of the story, so don't anyone start ranting about this aspect, as I would do it again.) So my questions are: Is it just genetics that determine this type of trait? Is it the socialization at a very young age? Does the puppy school make that much of a difference in the social behaviour of dogs? Can anyone shed any light on this?? Some notes: I'm not saying either way is right, I'm just wondering what would determine such a huge variance in social behaviour. Second note: each berner is from a different breeder with (probably) no ancestral links in their pedigree. Third note, both are altered males, one altered at 1 year, one at 5.5 months. First berner was not first dog, we have a GSD that is three years older than the first berner -- each dog is approximately three years difference in age. I'd have to say, I'm not a dog idiot, I have read many books on training and dog behaviours and my training is based on positive rather than negative. Is it just that the owner gets that much better with each dog they add to the family?? Jenn Popp Healthy Paws Bones and Raw Food Diet http://www.healthy-paws.ca Toronto, Ontario (Canada) 416-264-1313 / email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
