[Bf-committers] Blender Developers Meeting Minutes - May 27th
Hi, only a few topics to report on, some discussion about OpenGL that we better move to the mailing list. 1) Current Projects - Mike Erwin proposes to switch to OpenGL 3.2 minimum requirement in the 2.8x branch. While meeting generally agrees on this, it breaks building on OSX for as long as we still use immediate mode, so better move discussion to mailing list, since we better take care breaking platform support for too long on branches intended for everyone to collaborate on. - Kevin Dietrich is working on Alembic, http://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?399763 2) GSOC Updates - Thomas has Bindless Textures and Single Channel textures in master https://wiki.blender.org/index.php/User:DingTo/GSoC_2016/Weekly_Reports/Preparations ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Blender Developers Meeting Minutes - May 27th
Hi all, On the OpenGL topic, my main question is whether anyone working on Blender 2.8 needs Mac support in the next few months. Eventually we'll have everything working cross platform with GL 3.2 core profile. But to get started on that we can use 3.2 compatibility profile which works on Windows and Linux but not Mac. Git master and current/future Blender 2.7x releases will not be affected. Just the blender2.8 branch which is the hub for future work. A few months!? It's not just immediate mode drawing commands that need replacement. Display lists also go away. Much built-in state and functions are replaced by GLSL. In other words there's lots to do! And capable people here that are itching to make progress. After the meeting I locally bumped GL to 3.2 on Windows, upgraded built-in shaders and code generator to GLSL 1.5, and scrapped some legacy code. If nobody objects, that can all go into blender2.8 and not a sub-branch. Mike Erwin musician, naturalist, pixel pusher, hacker extraordinaire On Thu, May 26, 2016 at 9:19 PM, Campbell Barton wrote: > Hi, only a few topics to report on, > some discussion about OpenGL that we better move to the mailing list. > > 1) Current Projects > > - Mike Erwin proposes to switch to OpenGL 3.2 minimum requirement in > the 2.8x branch. > While meeting generally agrees on this, it breaks building on OSX > for as long as we still use immediate mode, > so better move discussion to mailing list, since we better take care > breaking platform support for too long on branches intended for > everyone to collaborate on. > > - Kevin Dietrich is working on Alembic, > http://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?399763 > > 2) GSOC Updates > > - Thomas has Bindless Textures and Single Channel textures in master > > https://wiki.blender.org/index.php/User:DingTo/GSoC_2016/Weekly_Reports/Preparations > ___ > Bf-committers mailing list > Bf-committers@blender.org > https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers > ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Blender Developers Meeting Minutes - May 27th
Hi all, I think it is fine to break OS X for a while if we make sure that: - blender still builds on OS X and that we still build it, even if it is totally broken when running just to prevent other things breaking unintended - you can force build a core only 3.2 on windows / linux and have some link time magic to make sure at least the legacy OpenGL entry points cannot work in that state I do not think is to much about most developers now using OS X as their primary platform as that we should be very careful with a platform our users care about. Martijn On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 7:46 AM, Mike Erwin wrote: > Hi all, > > On the OpenGL topic, my main question is whether anyone working on Blender > 2.8 needs Mac support in the next few months. Eventually we'll have > everything working cross platform with GL 3.2 core profile. But to get > started on that we can use 3.2 compatibility profile which works on Windows > and Linux but not Mac. > > Git master and current/future Blender 2.7x releases will not be affected. > Just the blender2.8 branch which is the hub for future work. > > A few months!? It's not just immediate mode drawing commands that need > replacement. Display lists also go away. Much built-in state and functions > are replaced by GLSL. In other words there's lots to do! And capable people > here that are itching to make progress. > > After the meeting I locally bumped GL to 3.2 on Windows, upgraded built-in > shaders and code generator to GLSL 1.5, and scrapped some legacy code. If > nobody objects, that can all go into blender2.8 and not a sub-branch. > > Mike Erwin > musician, naturalist, pixel pusher, hacker extraordinaire > > On Thu, May 26, 2016 at 9:19 PM, Campbell Barton > wrote: > > > Hi, only a few topics to report on, > > some discussion about OpenGL that we better move to the mailing list. > > > > 1) Current Projects > > > > - Mike Erwin proposes to switch to OpenGL 3.2 minimum requirement in > > the 2.8x branch. > > While meeting generally agrees on this, it breaks building on OSX > > for as long as we still use immediate mode, > > so better move discussion to mailing list, since we better take care > > breaking platform support for too long on branches intended for > > everyone to collaborate on. > > > > - Kevin Dietrich is working on Alembic, > > http://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?399763 > > > > 2) GSOC Updates > > > > - Thomas has Bindless Textures and Single Channel textures in master > > > > > https://wiki.blender.org/index.php/User:DingTo/GSoC_2016/Weekly_Reports/Preparations > > ___ > > Bf-committers mailing list > > Bf-committers@blender.org > > https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers > > > ___ > Bf-committers mailing list > Bf-committers@blender.org > https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers > ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Blender Developers Meeting Minutes - May 27th
On 27 May 2016, at 3:46 PM, Mike Erwin wrote: > On the OpenGL topic, my main question is whether anyone working on Blender > 2.8 needs Mac support in the next few months. I’m not working on the code for 2.8 or really need 2.8 at the moment, so this is more of an intellectual objection than a call to “STOP!”. I’m worried about making the move to OpenGL 3.2 whilst OSX is not working for precisely the points Mike suggests moving ahead. The amount of work to be done to get Blender working (on OSX) with 3.2 is quite large and, more importantly, it’s a boring / hard slog. It’s unexciting work that no-one is really excited to get into and it will remain so. Like kids eating their vegetables, if developers are allowed to get dessert (get into more exciting code) by saying you’ll eat your greens (i.e. fix up OSX) sometime later - 9 times out of 10, those beans end up in the bin. I don’t wish to see OSX (my primary Blender platform) getting left behind because that last unexciting 20% of code keeps getting pushed off as Windows & Linux work just fine. I’m reminded of how long it took to get BMesh tools up to the level of pre-BMesh tools because, for most users in most tasks, it was “good enough". I’d hate to see Blender on OSX fall behind and remain there for a long time because, for most users, Windows & Linux are "good enough”. I have no say in the matter, but thought it best to reply now & be told “It’s all in hand, not to worry” than just hold my peace and have my pessimism proven correct. -- B.J.Tolputt ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Blender Developers Meeting Minutes - May 27th
I think that it would be fine to break compiling on OSX. The primary reason is that it must be done at some point and it would be better to break compatibility in the beginning rather than in the end. - Aaron On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 2:20 AM, Benjamin Tolputt wrote: > On 27 May 2016, at 3:46 PM, Mike Erwin wrote: > > On the OpenGL topic, my main question is whether anyone working on > Blender > > 2.8 needs Mac support in the next few months. > > I’m not working on the code for 2.8 or really need 2.8 at the moment, so > this is more of an intellectual objection than a call to “STOP!”. > > I’m worried about making the move to OpenGL 3.2 whilst OSX is not working > for precisely the points Mike suggests moving ahead. The amount of work to > be done to get Blender working (on OSX) with 3.2 is quite large and, more > importantly, it’s a boring / hard slog. It’s unexciting work that no-one is > really excited to get into and it will remain so. Like kids eating their > vegetables, if developers are allowed to get dessert (get into more > exciting code) by saying you’ll eat your greens (i.e. fix up OSX) sometime > later - 9 times out of 10, those beans end up in the bin. > > I don’t wish to see OSX (my primary Blender platform) getting left behind > because that last unexciting 20% of code keeps getting pushed off as > Windows & Linux work just fine. I’m reminded of how long it took to get > BMesh tools up to the level of pre-BMesh tools because, for most users in > most tasks, it was “good enough". I’d hate to see Blender on OSX fall > behind and remain there for a long time because, for most users, Windows & > Linux are "good enough”. > > I have no say in the matter, but thought it best to reply now & be told > “It’s all in hand, not to worry” than just hold my peace and have my > pessimism proven correct. > > -- > B.J.Tolputt > ___ > Bf-committers mailing list > Bf-committers@blender.org > https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers > ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Blender Developers Meeting Minutes - May 27th
Just use GL core headers everywhere. On 27 May 2016 at 08:05, Martijn Berger wrote: > Hi all, > > I think it is fine to break OS X for a while if we make sure that: > > - blender still builds on OS X and that we still build it, even if it is > totally broken when running just to prevent other things breaking > unintended > - you can force build a core only 3.2 on windows / linux and have some link > time magic to make sure at least the legacy OpenGL entry points cannot work > in that state > > I do not think is to much about most developers now using OS X as their > primary platform as that we should be very careful with a platform our > users care about. > > Martijn > > On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 7:46 AM, Mike Erwin > wrote: > > > Hi all, > > > > On the OpenGL topic, my main question is whether anyone working on > Blender > > 2.8 needs Mac support in the next few months. Eventually we'll have > > everything working cross platform with GL 3.2 core profile. But to get > > started on that we can use 3.2 compatibility profile which works on > Windows > > and Linux but not Mac. > > > > Git master and current/future Blender 2.7x releases will not be affected. > > Just the blender2.8 branch which is the hub for future work. > > > > A few months!? It's not just immediate mode drawing commands that need > > replacement. Display lists also go away. Much built-in state and > functions > > are replaced by GLSL. In other words there's lots to do! And capable > people > > here that are itching to make progress. > > > > After the meeting I locally bumped GL to 3.2 on Windows, upgraded > built-in > > shaders and code generator to GLSL 1.5, and scrapped some legacy code. If > > nobody objects, that can all go into blender2.8 and not a sub-branch. > > > > Mike Erwin > > musician, naturalist, pixel pusher, hacker extraordinaire > > > > On Thu, May 26, 2016 at 9:19 PM, Campbell Barton > > wrote: > > > > > Hi, only a few topics to report on, > > > some discussion about OpenGL that we better move to the mailing list. > > > > > > 1) Current Projects > > > > > > - Mike Erwin proposes to switch to OpenGL 3.2 minimum requirement in > > > the 2.8x branch. > > > While meeting generally agrees on this, it breaks building on OSX > > > for as long as we still use immediate mode, > > > so better move discussion to mailing list, since we better take care > > > breaking platform support for too long on branches intended for > > > everyone to collaborate on. > > > > > > - Kevin Dietrich is working on Alembic, > > > http://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?399763 > > > > > > 2) GSOC Updates > > > > > > - Thomas has Bindless Textures and Single Channel textures in master > > > > > > > > > https://wiki.blender.org/index.php/User:DingTo/GSoC_2016/Weekly_Reports/Preparations > > > ___ > > > Bf-committers mailing list > > > Bf-committers@blender.org > > > https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers > > > > > ___ > > Bf-committers mailing list > > Bf-committers@blender.org > > https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers > > > ___ > Bf-committers mailing list > Bf-committers@blender.org > https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers > ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Blender Developers Meeting Minutes - May 27th
Hi, I thought the goal was to remove immediate mode calls first? All platforms would benefit. My preference is to Keep OS X work and do as planned then. We can also do a call for help. Someone could point at smaller todos for volunteers to help migrating. Only when all options fail we can decide to drop a platform temporary. -Ton- Ton Roosendaal - t...@blender.org - www.blender.org Chairman Blender Foundation, Producer Blender Institute Support us - join blender.cloud or Blender Dev Fund. > On 27 May 2016, at 03:19, Campbell Barton wrote: > > Hi, only a few topics to report on, > some discussion about OpenGL that we better move to the mailing list. > > 1) Current Projects > > - Mike Erwin proposes to switch to OpenGL 3.2 minimum requirement in > the 2.8x branch. > While meeting generally agrees on this, it breaks building on OSX > for as long as we still use immediate mode, > so better move discussion to mailing list, since we better take care > breaking platform support for too long on branches intended for > everyone to collaborate on. > > - Kevin Dietrich is working on Alembic, > http://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?399763 > > 2) GSOC Updates > > - Thomas has Bindless Textures and Single Channel textures in master > > https://wiki.blender.org/index.php/User:DingTo/GSoC_2016/Weekly_Reports/Preparations > ___ > Bf-committers mailing list > Bf-committers@blender.org > https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Blender Developers Meeting Minutes - May 27th
How do you remove immediate mode but keep things working? After removal of immediate mode you'll barely have anything in the interface. Did you mean "replace with modern OGL" ? And what's the plan you're referring to? On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 6:26 PM, Ton Roosendaal wrote: > Hi, > > I thought the goal was to remove immediate mode calls first? All platforms > would benefit. > My preference is to Keep OS X work and do as planned then. > > We can also do a call for help. Someone could point at smaller todos for > volunteers to help migrating. Only when all options fail we can decide to > drop a platform temporary. > > -Ton- > > > Ton Roosendaal - t...@blender.org - www.blender.org > Chairman Blender Foundation, Producer Blender Institute > Support us - join blender.cloud or Blender Dev Fund. > > > On 27 May 2016, at 03:19, Campbell Barton wrote: > > > > Hi, only a few topics to report on, > > some discussion about OpenGL that we better move to the mailing list. > > > > 1) Current Projects > > > > - Mike Erwin proposes to switch to OpenGL 3.2 minimum requirement in > > the 2.8x branch. > > While meeting generally agrees on this, it breaks building on OSX > > for as long as we still use immediate mode, > > so better move discussion to mailing list, since we better take care > > breaking platform support for too long on branches intended for > > everyone to collaborate on. > > > > - Kevin Dietrich is working on Alembic, > > http://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?399763 > > > > 2) GSOC Updates > > > > - Thomas has Bindless Textures and Single Channel textures in master > > > https://wiki.blender.org/index.php/User:DingTo/GSoC_2016/Weekly_Reports/Preparations > > ___ > > Bf-committers mailing list > > Bf-committers@blender.org > > https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers > > ___ > Bf-committers mailing list > Bf-committers@blender.org > https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers > -- With best regards, Sergey Sharybin ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Blender Developers Meeting Minutes - May 27th
Sergey, I'm pretty sure we're talking about replacing immediate mode with modern OpenGL, not just removing code. I'm against breaking OS X in the Blender 2.8 branch, at least for me it would make contributing to development in that branch more difficult. Especially without concrete plans for who is going to unbreak it and when. I'd like to understand the status of the immediate mode removal. Mike, is that something you are still working on? Is there something I or other developers can do to help speed up development in that area, or should we wait for a proposal/code from you? There's some other things to be done as well, like replacing the matrix stack. Is that something you're working on or can someone else pick that up? On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 6:35 PM, Sergey Sharybin wrote: > How do you remove immediate mode but keep things working? After removal of > immediate mode you'll barely have anything in the interface. > > Did you mean "replace with modern OGL" ? And what's the plan you're > referring to? > > On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 6:26 PM, Ton Roosendaal wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> I thought the goal was to remove immediate mode calls first? All platforms >> would benefit. >> My preference is to Keep OS X work and do as planned then. >> >> We can also do a call for help. Someone could point at smaller todos for >> volunteers to help migrating. Only when all options fail we can decide to >> drop a platform temporary. >> >> -Ton- >> >> >> Ton Roosendaal - t...@blender.org - www.blender.org >> Chairman Blender Foundation, Producer Blender Institute >> Support us - join blender.cloud or Blender Dev Fund. >> >> > On 27 May 2016, at 03:19, Campbell Barton wrote: >> > >> > Hi, only a few topics to report on, >> > some discussion about OpenGL that we better move to the mailing list. >> > >> > 1) Current Projects >> > >> > - Mike Erwin proposes to switch to OpenGL 3.2 minimum requirement in >> > the 2.8x branch. >> > While meeting generally agrees on this, it breaks building on OSX >> > for as long as we still use immediate mode, >> > so better move discussion to mailing list, since we better take care >> > breaking platform support for too long on branches intended for >> > everyone to collaborate on. >> > >> > - Kevin Dietrich is working on Alembic, >> > http://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?399763 >> > >> > 2) GSOC Updates >> > >> > - Thomas has Bindless Textures and Single Channel textures in master >> > >> https://wiki.blender.org/index.php/User:DingTo/GSoC_2016/Weekly_Reports/Preparations >> > ___ >> > Bf-committers mailing list >> > Bf-committers@blender.org >> > https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers >> >> ___ >> Bf-committers mailing list >> Bf-committers@blender.org >> https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers >> > > > > -- > With best regards, Sergey Sharybin > ___ > Bf-committers mailing list > Bf-committers@blender.org > https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Blender Developers Meeting Minutes - May 27th
Thanks for the responses everyone. Pretty evenly divided. Since Brecht's ongoing contributions are somewhere between Important and Essential, we'll keep it working on Mac. So here's a less drastic proposal: - OpenGL 2.1 remains the baseline until we're ready to fully switch to 3.2 core profile, to keep Mac devs & testers in the loop. Getting there requires some fun & some boring work as pointed out. - major architectural changes go in the blender2.8 branch - in all branches, new drawing code should avoid legacy GL patterns (glBegin, display lists, etc.) mostly to ease the transition to core profile - we encourage use of GL 3.2 but guard those code paths with "if GLEW_VERSION_3_2". GL 2.1 fallbacks are required in master but optional in blender2.8 and its sub-branches GL 3.2 core is still the target baseline for Blender 2.8 -- it will let us draw nicer pictures faster with cleaner code, bring OpenSubdiv to our Mac users, and enable techniques that we just can't do in earlier versions. After core profile is working there's a lot of fallbacks, version checks, extension checks that can be stripped out. That's one of the fun parts! But it looks like we have to eat our veggies before this delicious cake is served. Continued feedback is welcome on any of these points. I'll try to answer your other questions shortly! On Saturday, May 28, 2016, Brecht Van Lommel wrote: > Sergey, I'm pretty sure we're talking about replacing immediate mode > with modern OpenGL, not just removing code. > > I'm against breaking OS X in the Blender 2.8 branch, at least for me > it would make contributing to development in that branch more > difficult. Especially without concrete plans for who is going to > unbreak it and when. > > I'd like to understand the status of the immediate mode removal. Mike, > is that something you are still working on? Is there something I or > other developers can do to help speed up development in that area, or > should we wait for a proposal/code from you? > > There's some other things to be done as well, like replacing the > matrix stack. Is that something you're working on or can someone else > pick that up? > > > On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 6:35 PM, Sergey Sharybin > wrote: > > How do you remove immediate mode but keep things working? After removal > of > > immediate mode you'll barely have anything in the interface. > > > > Did you mean "replace with modern OGL" ? And what's the plan you're > > referring to? > > > > On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 6:26 PM, Ton Roosendaal > wrote: > > > >> Hi, > >> > >> I thought the goal was to remove immediate mode calls first? All > platforms > >> would benefit. > >> My preference is to Keep OS X work and do as planned then. > >> > >> We can also do a call for help. Someone could point at smaller todos for > >> volunteers to help migrating. Only when all options fail we can decide > to > >> drop a platform temporary. > >> > >> -Ton- > >> > >> > >> Ton Roosendaal - t...@blender.org- www.blender.org > >> Chairman Blender Foundation, Producer Blender Institute > >> Support us - join blender.cloud or Blender Dev Fund. > >> > >> > On 27 May 2016, at 03:19, Campbell Barton > wrote: > >> > > >> > Hi, only a few topics to report on, > >> > some discussion about OpenGL that we better move to the mailing list. > >> > > >> > 1) Current Projects > >> > > >> > - Mike Erwin proposes to switch to OpenGL 3.2 minimum requirement in > >> > the 2.8x branch. > >> > While meeting generally agrees on this, it breaks building on OSX > >> > for as long as we still use immediate mode, > >> > so better move discussion to mailing list, since we better take care > >> > breaking platform support for too long on branches intended for > >> > everyone to collaborate on. > >> > > >> > - Kevin Dietrich is working on Alembic, > >> > http://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?399763 > >> > > >> > 2) GSOC Updates > >> > > >> > - Thomas has Bindless Textures and Single Channel textures in master > >> > > >> > https://wiki.blender.org/index.php/User:DingTo/GSoC_2016/Weekly_Reports/Preparations > >> > ___ > >> > Bf-committers mailing list > >> > Bf-committers@blender.org > >> > https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers > >> > >> ___ > >> Bf-committers mailing list > >> Bf-committers@blender.org > >> https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > With best regards, Sergey Sharybin > > ___ > > Bf-committers mailing list > > Bf-committers@blender.org > > https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers > ___ > Bf-committers mailing list > Bf-committers@blender.org > https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers > -- Mike Erwin musician, naturalist, pixel pusher, hacker extraordinaire _
