Re: [Bf-committers] Patch [#36028] New 4-column layout for the editor-type-selector menu...
I think the visual dividers are a big help, and agree with Michael they could be a bit dimmer. I'll patch this and see if the dividers are enough (subjectively) to get over the flip-flopping confusion. On Sun, Jul 7, 2013 at 9:17 PM, Harley Acheson harley.ache...@gmail.comwrote: Short of a big overhall, there are also simple things we can do. The following shows the current menu on the left. On the right there has been some margin added to the left of the icons so they are not scrunched against the left. The separators are made a lot less invisible, and are not extended to the edges. http://www.pasteall.org/pic/show.php?id=55110 ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Patch [#36028] New 4-column layout for the editor-type-selector menu...
Not sure if you want to put the effort into coding a simple test program - but it could be very informative. It could/should work online - basically, it would populate randomly the different menu types that you propose, but with random arbitrary words instead of the 'known language' of Blender. On clicking a 'test' button, The program would then give you a random word that appears on the list, and then measure how long it takes you to click the actual word within the menu and log that to a database/spreadsheet. With a tool like this we could make some actual data-driven UI decisions instead of conjecture over which way is better. (Given the spread of who is for changes and who is against, I have a feeling that the preference has strongly to do whether you are a left brained person or a right brained person.) -Sean On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 3:34 AM, David Jeske dav...@gmail.com wrote: I think the visual dividers are a big help, and agree with Michael they could be a bit dimmer. I'll patch this and see if the dividers are enough (subjectively) to get over the flip-flopping confusion. On Sun, Jul 7, 2013 at 9:17 PM, Harley Acheson harley.ache...@gmail.com wrote: Short of a big overhall, there are also simple things we can do. The following shows the current menu on the left. On the right there has been some margin added to the left of the icons so they are not scrunched against the left. The separators are made a lot less invisible, and are not extended to the edges. http://www.pasteall.org/pic/show.php?id=55110 ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers -- ||-- Instant Messengers -- || ICQ at 11133295 || AIM at shatterstar98 || MSN Messenger at shatte...@hotmail.com || Yahoo Y! at the_7th_samuri ||-- ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Patch [#36028] New 4-column layout for the editor-type-selector menu...
Sorry, I wasn't trying to derail the talk of a multi-column menu. I was just trying to add that our layout sometimes works against quickly reading and understanding. In the following example, the only things that have changed is the padding between the left edge and the icons, the space between the icons and the text, and the brightness of the separator lines. Those lines should not extend edge-to-edge. http://www.pasteall.org/pic/show.php?id=55137 Our menus need padding like that, especially to give the icons some breathing room. Cheers, Harley ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Patch [#36028] New 4-column layout for the editor-type-selector menu...
@Sean - The test program you describe would tell us about new-user usability, but would not tell us about expert usability. While I would value these results, I suspect they would not be very convincing to existing users. Expert/everyday data can be gathered by putting usage-tracking/timing directly into the application. Then we can visualize frequency/timing of use over any users submitting usage data. This might be worth doing, as it's generally just small hooks inside some core menu code. However, to learn much about comparative designs, you then need to do A/B testing, where different users get different UIs (randomly or selectively). Our userbase is a bit small for this, and I think basic automatic crash/usage reporting would be a better/simpler first step. @Gaia - My concern is not only for myself, but for general default ui usability. Adding customization does not change usability for most users. I also think other areas of the UI are more ripe for customization, such as the header-bar controls, particularly the info-header. @ any unconvinced - I highly recommend you *try* the proposed 3/4 column menus for a couple days before you draw a conclusion about which you would prefer. It's quite alarming how much easier it is to find things (even for expert users) once entries stop moving around. ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Patch [#36028] New 4-column layout for the editor-type-selector menu...
I realized after sending that last email that I would probably use even more margin around the icons, and it looks best if the separators do not extend between them. Like this: http://www.pasteall.org/pic/show.php?id=55157 Cheers, Harley ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Patch [#36028] New 4-column layout for the editor-type-selector menu...
I am not sure what to make of these new layouts yet, imho it's more complicated to scan 3 columns with no description or misleading title, than scanning through the list we have know. So I am not convinced here yet. ;) Am 07.07.2013 06:53, schrieb Gavin Howard: +1 to the last 3-column layout with no headers. Gavin H. On Sat, Jul 6, 2013 at 10:36 PM, David Jeske dav...@gmail.com wrote: Maybe something like this, with 2 columns: http://www.pasteall.org/43817 Not saying this is ideal, but I think trying to fit everything in columns with a single title per column constraints things too much. I think any of these non-flipping layouts would be a big improvement. The reason I'm going wider is to keep the common views within mouse-reach when menu opens up. Below is a reachability comparison. I think the difference in everyday usability would be significant. (Keeping 3d-view close is one of the justifications I hear for today's flipping menus) http://www.pasteall.org/pic/show.php?id=55034 As for the headers, we could just drop them. They are not a very important part of layout waypointing, memory, or everyday usability. They are mostly for new-users to get some idea what the categories are. However, if there isn't enough ontological correctness they confuse more than help. What do you/folks think about this 3 column layout? .. with no headers http://www.pasteall.org/pic/show.php?id=55036 It's the same as your ordering, except I put Node-Editor with the main stuff on the left because I think the compositor is as good a main view / start-point as the other things over there. (ignore the kind of nasty extra space below Editor Type.. it's a byproduct of the current menu code and could be fixed) ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers -- Thomas Dinges Blender Developer, Artist and Musician www.dingto.org ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Patch [#36028] New 4-column layout for the editor-type-selector menu...
I find all new layouts proposed to be a big improvement over the current long list that is, in my opinion, too long to scan efficiently when looking for a window type. I'm always annoyed about myself taking 5 seconds to find the right one in there. These two here seem to be the best ones to me, the left one could possibly turned upside down so that the commons window types are at the left bottom: http://www.pasteall.org/pic/show.php?id=55034 Then again, distance from the button shouldn't be an issue - once you know where the button is, the mouse is there in a fraction of a second anyway. I also don't think titles over the categories would be bad, because you can only really memorize where which window type is found if you know what the categories contain. I never even noticed they were in categories already until now, but because they aren't described (and the lines are very thin), so they have no positive effect right now. This could also be a user preference setting imo. 2013/7/7 Thomas Dinges blen...@dingto.org I am not sure what to make of these new layouts yet, imho it's more complicated to scan 3 columns with no description or misleading title, than scanning through the list we have know. So I am not convinced here yet. ;) Am 07.07.2013 06:53, schrieb Gavin Howard: +1 to the last 3-column layout with no headers. Gavin H. On Sat, Jul 6, 2013 at 10:36 PM, David Jeske dav...@gmail.com wrote: Maybe something like this, with 2 columns: http://www.pasteall.org/43817 Not saying this is ideal, but I think trying to fit everything in columns with a single title per column constraints things too much. I think any of these non-flipping layouts would be a big improvement. The reason I'm going wider is to keep the common views within mouse-reach when menu opens up. Below is a reachability comparison. I think the difference in everyday usability would be significant. (Keeping 3d-view close is one of the justifications I hear for today's flipping menus) http://www.pasteall.org/pic/show.php?id=55034 As for the headers, we could just drop them. They are not a very important part of layout waypointing, memory, or everyday usability. They are mostly for new-users to get some idea what the categories are. However, if there isn't enough ontological correctness they confuse more than help. What do you/folks think about this 3 column layout? .. with no headers http://www.pasteall.org/pic/show.php?id=55036 It's the same as your ordering, except I put Node-Editor with the main stuff on the left because I think the compositor is as good a main view / start-point as the other things over there. (ignore the kind of nasty extra space below Editor Type.. it's a byproduct of the current menu code and could be fixed) ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers -- Thomas Dinges Blender Developer, Artist and Musician www.dingto.org ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Patch [#36028] New 4-column layout for the editor-type-selector menu...
Imho, alphabetical means not quite ideal for i18n UI display. In fact, the current list already got well-classified if looking closely a bit. However, if there really needs to be any goal for quick look-ups, I think a better solution would probably be trying to stress the role of icons, since images usually are more easier to identify than texts, everyone likes them. I mean, just imagine a software without icons :). In orther words, I mean it would be to* scale the default size of those icons a little bit* for the more eaiser and quick identification, probably. Second solution: Probably it could be considered to try *adding Shortcuts display* for them, I mean the current Shift + F1 to F12 thing. I know it's the most simple trick for all experts, which is well-known for sure. However, for new users? I doubt so. So, it may protencially suggestting those who want to use as many shorcuts as they can (and will) a more direct way to switch among editors. On Sun, Jul 7, 2013 at 10:45 PM, Harley Acheson harley.ache...@gmail.comwrote: I still think this has nothing to do with the list being too large. The order of the items on the list changes depending on whether it pops up or down, so we can't just remember them visually by location. And the order is non-visual so we have to do a linear scan instead of a binary one. We have to read almost all the items almost all the damn time. If we didn't do the swap, we could have any arrangement of items and it wouldn't matter much because they would stay in the same place. 3D View would always be at the top, and the item that is 1/3 down would always be there. Make the order *alphabetical* and we can then do a binary scan to find the items instead of a linear one. Combine the two and we could make the list much longer and we could still find items in it faster that we do now. Cheers, Harley ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers -- Leon Cheung a.k.a. 老猫 ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Patch [#36028] New 4-column layout for the editor-type-selector menu...
Short of a big overhall, there are also simple things we can do. The following shows the current menu on the left. On the right there has been some margin added to the left of the icons so they are not scrunched against the left. The separators are made a lot less invisible, and are not extended to the edges. http://www.pasteall.org/pic/show.php?id=55110 ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Patch [#36028] New 4-column layout for the editor-type-selector menu...
This layout I like if the dividers were a little Dimmer as they are now it makes the menu too busy visually On 8 Jul 2013 14:17, Harley Acheson harley.ache...@gmail.com wrote: Short of a big overhall, there are also simple things we can do. The following shows the current menu on the left. On the right there has been some margin added to the left of the icons so they are not scrunched against the left. The separators are made a lot less invisible, and are not extended to the edges. http://www.pasteall.org/pic/show.php?id=55110 ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Patch [#36028] New 4-column layout for the editor-type-selector menu...
+1 That's looking a lot better than the earlier version of this I saw :) I agree the current menu is actually quite a mess, and that this layout introduces some helpful structure. On Sat, Jul 6, 2013 at 5:51 PM, David Jeske dav...@gmail.com wrote: This patch alters the window-editor-type-selection menu to a new 4-column layout, based on the multi-column Modifier selection design. The new design: - keeps the primary editors very close to the menu-button in both orientations - makes it SUBSTANTIALLY easier to find and remember the locations of other editor types in the menu - provides an ordered grouping of editor-types, with a meaning that can help new users understand the software http://www.pasteall.org/pic/show.php?id=54986 http://projects.blender.org/tracker/index.php?func=detailaid=36028group_id=9atid=127 ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Patch [#36028] New 4-column layout for the editor-type-selector menu...
Of course there are many possible groupings, headings and orderings. You can see some of the others I considered here.. http://lists.blender.org/pipermail/bf-funboard/2013-July/005283.html Did you read the grouping definitions on the tracker entry? ... + /* Workspaces - author new data directly */ + /* Tools - alternate editing views on the data being created in workspaces */ + /* Asset Management (Tools) - browse, manage, load, mix, and process assets for use in workspaces */ + /* Scripting - Script 3d objects, the UI, and the BGE. */ By these definitions Movie clip editor/tracker does not author new data. It extracts it from an asset. NLA editor is not an alternate view and editor of data being edited in 3d view. It packages animation data into an asset, removing it from the 3d view, and allows mixing and composing those assets. -- -- Which is not to say the definitions are correct or the only definitions. However, to discuss alternate groupings, it would be nice to have alternate definitions which make sense. ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Patch [#36028] New 4-column layout for the editor-type-selector menu...
These categories in general make no sense to me, I don't see how these workspaces author new data more directly than others, the Movie Clip Tracker or NLA editor are not asset management, tools just seems like a random collection of editors. To me it seems you're trying to fit these into arbitrary categories to fit this menu shape, you could create a custom menu in python and lay things out in 1 or 2 columns so you don't need 4 evenly sized columns. On Sat, Jul 6, 2013 at 10:22 AM, Antony Riakiotakis kal...@gmail.com wrote: Nice, but Movie Clip editor is arguably workspace and NLA editor is 'Tool' if not 'Workspace' as well. I think 'Animation' instead of 'Tool' might be better here? ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Patch [#36028] New 4-column layout for the editor-type-selector menu...
Personally, and this might get me into trouble again, but I do not believe this is an improvement, the current menu is already segregated and grouped, and is more natural with the general vertical layout of blender,. humans naturally finds vertical menus not box menus easier to read as most read from top to bottom, left to right, hence why menus are generally 1 column layout with simple words, the modifiers list is box because most modifiers are similar and names can be confusing. Because if this I see this patch as a step backward and would do more annoying then actually helping On 6 Jul 2013 15:51, David Jeske dav...@gmail.com wrote: This patch alters the window-editor-type-selection menu to a new 4-column layout, based on the multi-column Modifier selection design. The new design: - keeps the primary editors very close to the menu-button in both orientations - makes it SUBSTANTIALLY easier to find and remember the locations of other editor types in the menu - provides an ordered grouping of editor-types, with a meaning that can help new users understand the software http://www.pasteall.org/pic/show.php?id=54986 http://projects.blender.org/tracker/index.php?func=detailaid=36028group_id=9atid=127 ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Patch [#36028] New 4-column layout for the editor-type-selector menu...
I'm for any change that places the items in a *consistent* place. It is easier to find things on the Modifiers list mostly because it doesn't flip order depending on where it is when you click on it, unlike the rest of our menus. The order change is what forces me to scan through the list every time. Not convinced? Then perhaps we should consider changing the Modifier list so that it behaves like all the rest. So it would look like it does now if you open it in the top-half of the application, but like the following if it is in the lower half: [image: Inline image 1] The order of a list should not depend on where you open it. Cheers, Harley ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Patch [#36028] New 4-column layout for the editor-type-selector menu...
Of course I realize the reason we do the order-flipping is so that the the same items remain the same distance from the mouse when you open the menu. That would mean that if we open the Modifiers list from the bottom- LEFT it should then flip not only vertically but also horizontally:: [image: Inline image 1] LOL ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Patch [#36028] New 4-column layout for the editor-type-selector menu...
In case you are not able to see the images I linked to, here are their URLs: Modifiers list from bottom-right http://www.pasteall.org/pic/show.php?id=54999 Modifiers list from bottom-left http://www.pasteall.org/pic/show.php?id=55000 Harley ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Patch [#36028] New 4-column layout for the editor-type-selector menu...
The current editor-type menu flipping is a byproduct of Blender trying to solve a tricky problem in UI design, which is allowing header-menu-bars to live on the top or the bottom. I think Blender's flipping menus work acceptably for text-header-menus, because a particular menu type is accessed from only one direction. (aka, the user probably buts all 3dview headers on the bottom of 3dviews). However, the window-editor-type-menu is often and repeatedly used from both orientations. This flipping ruins consistency. It not only makes it harder for new users to recognize it as the same thing (because it's upside-down), but it hurts experienced users by ruining their ability to build muscle memory for the menu. The multi-column layout is objectively a better solution to the two competing goals. Items can be kept in a consistent position, making the menu easier to recognize, learn, and use. Frequently used operations can be kept close to the start-point by keeping the menu vertically short, making those operations fast to reach from either orientation. It is simply a better solution to the problem. it is dramatically easier to remember where things are in *larger* modifier and constraint menus, because they have a non-flipping multi-column layout. -- Which brings us back to preferences There is no question there are many possible groupings, headers, and motivations for those groupings. In fact, if the small amount of feedback I've seen so far is any indication, 50 blender users designed multi-column layouts, we would probably see 50 different solutions. I'd like to respond to this with three main points. 1) *ANY* non-flipping multi-column layout is better than the current solution as long as it keeps commonly used items close to the start-point. Objectively, -mathematically- it achieves the two optimization goals better. It works better for UI design. It works better for humans trying to find things. It's just better. 2) Because different users have different preferences about where things should be in this menu, user-preferences don't help us converge on a single layout. My model for resolving this abundance of preferences is to try to use a mix of utility and logical structure. @Brecht - The proposed WTAS grouping does have logic behind it, but I'm not at all saying it's the best. The main goal was trying to determine which views in blender could be standalone programs in their own right and put those into the workspaces section...Blender is useful for a heck of alot more than the 3dview, but that functionality is dizzyingly hard to find because those top level program views are mixed among views like properties and graph editor. I'd love to hear some more detailed feedback about grouping structure and headings, either here, or on the bf-funboard thread... Here is an easier-to-view review of the better groupings I've tried so far.. http://dj1.willowmail.com/~jeske/Projects/Blender/ETS.html ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Patch [#36028] New 4-column layout for the editor-type-selector menu...
Maybe something like this, with 2 columns: http://www.pasteall.org/43817 Not saying this is ideal, but I think trying to fit everything in columns with a single title per column constraints things too much. I think any of these non-flipping layouts would be a big improvement. The reason I'm going wider is to keep the common views within mouse-reach when menu opens up. Below is a reachability comparison. I think the difference in everyday usability would be significant. (Keeping 3d-view close is one of the justifications I hear for today's flipping menus) http://www.pasteall.org/pic/show.php?id=55034 As for the headers, we could just drop them. They are not a very important part of layout waypointing, memory, or everyday usability. They are mostly for new-users to get some idea what the categories are. However, if there isn't enough ontological correctness they confuse more than help. What do you/folks think about this 3 column layout? .. with no headers http://www.pasteall.org/pic/show.php?id=55036 It's the same as your ordering, except I put Node-Editor with the main stuff on the left because I think the compositor is as good a main view / start-point as the other things over there. (ignore the kind of nasty extra space below Editor Type.. it's a byproduct of the current menu code and could be fixed) ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Patch [#36028] New 4-column layout for the editor-type-selector menu...
+1 to the last 3-column layout with no headers. Gavin H. On Sat, Jul 6, 2013 at 10:36 PM, David Jeske dav...@gmail.com wrote: Maybe something like this, with 2 columns: http://www.pasteall.org/43817 Not saying this is ideal, but I think trying to fit everything in columns with a single title per column constraints things too much. I think any of these non-flipping layouts would be a big improvement. The reason I'm going wider is to keep the common views within mouse-reach when menu opens up. Below is a reachability comparison. I think the difference in everyday usability would be significant. (Keeping 3d-view close is one of the justifications I hear for today's flipping menus) http://www.pasteall.org/pic/show.php?id=55034 As for the headers, we could just drop them. They are not a very important part of layout waypointing, memory, or everyday usability. They are mostly for new-users to get some idea what the categories are. However, if there isn't enough ontological correctness they confuse more than help. What do you/folks think about this 3 column layout? .. with no headers http://www.pasteall.org/pic/show.php?id=55036 It's the same as your ordering, except I put Node-Editor with the main stuff on the left because I think the compositor is as good a main view / start-point as the other things over there. (ignore the kind of nasty extra space below Editor Type.. it's a byproduct of the current menu code and could be fixed) ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
[Bf-committers] Patch [#36028] New 4-column layout for the editor-type-selector menu...
This patch alters the window-editor-type-selection menu to a new 4-column layout, based on the multi-column Modifier selection design. The new design: - keeps the primary editors very close to the menu-button in both orientations - makes it SUBSTANTIALLY easier to find and remember the locations of other editor types in the menu - provides an ordered grouping of editor-types, with a meaning that can help new users understand the software http://www.pasteall.org/pic/show.php?id=54986 http://projects.blender.org/tracker/index.php?func=detailaid=36028group_id=9atid=127 ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
