Re: BIND and DNSSEC

2012-11-01 Thread Sten Carlsen

On 02/11/12 2:08, Barry S. Finkel wrote:
> On 11/1/2012 3:31 PM, Sten Carlsen  wrote:
>> The typical server setup (for own servers) is that one name is used for
>> setting up e.g. the mail server, the ideal situation for everybody is
>> that whether I am in house or visiting you, if I have any internet
>> access, I can read and send mail.
>>
>> Now if there is an internal zone with a different name, how will you set
>> up the mail client? internal name is not accessible from outside and
>> external name is not present in internal name space. -> two mail
>> clients? changing setups when moving between networks?
> In this case, either 1) you have one mail server at the external border
> and one mail server internal, or 2) the same MX record in the external
> and internal view. You can have a common records file that you
> $INCLUDE in both views.
> --Barry Finkel

This will work for smtp service, I see a host of interesting issues with
IMAP service. Two mail servers that must be synchronized within a
minute, I don't think that is standard.

The simple solution (small scale) is to have one server, sitting
internally or in DMZ, the internal address record points to the
192.168.x.x address and the external address record points to the public
address of the router, which then has a virtual server set up for it.
This works flawless, I never consider if I am in or out of the house.

-- 
Best regards

Sten Carlsen

No improvements come from shouting:
   "MALE BOVINE MANURE!!!"

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Re: BIND and DNSSEC

2012-11-01 Thread Barry S. Finkel

On 11/1/2012 3:31 PM, Sten Carlsen  wrote:

The typical server setup (for own servers) is that one name is used for
setting up e.g. the mail server, the ideal situation for everybody is
that whether I am in house or visiting you, if I have any internet
access, I can read and send mail.

Now if there is an internal zone with a different name, how will you set
up the mail client? internal name is not accessible from outside and
external name is not present in internal name space. -> two mail
clients? changing setups when moving between networks?

In this case, either 1) you have one mail server at the external border
and one mail server internal, or 2) the same MX record in the external
and internal view. You can have a common records file that you
$INCLUDE in both views.
--Barry Finkel
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Re: BIND and DNSSEC

2012-11-01 Thread Alan Clegg

On Nov 1, 2012, at 7:45 AM, Alan Clegg  wrote:

> 
> On Nov 1, 2012, at 7:34 AM, Tony Finch  wrote:
> 
>> I recommend using "auto-dnssec maintain" so named keeps the zone signed,
>> instead of dnssec-signzone.
> 
> I do as well, and this will be documented in the next version of this 
> document.

Sorry for the spammage.  Bad failure mode of mail.app under OSX, it seems.  :(

AlanC
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Re: Bind 9.9.2 Clarification

2012-11-01 Thread Doug Barton
You can install 9.9.2 directly.

Doug


On 11/01/2012 01:30 PM, Manson, John wrote:
> Should I install bind 9.9.0 first and then update to bind 9.9.1 then
> update to bind 9.9.2?
> This excerpt from the README file is a little confusing:
>  
> BIND 9.9.2
>  
> BIND 9.9.2 is a maintenance release and patches the security
> flaw described in CVE-2012-4244.
>  
> BIND 9.9.1
>  
> BIND 9.9.1 is a maintenance release.
>  
> BIND 9.9.0
>  
> BIND 9.9.0 includes a number of changes from BIND 9.8 and earlier
> releases. 
>  
> Thanks
>  
> John Manson
> CAO/HIR/NAF Data-Communications | U.S. House of Representatives |
> Washington, DC 20515
> Desk: 202-226-4244 | TCC: 202-226-6430 | john.man...@mail.house.gov
>  
>  
>  
>  
> 
> 
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Bind 9.9.2 Clarification

2012-11-01 Thread Manson, John
Should I install bind 9.9.0 first and then update to bind 9.9.1 then update to 
bind 9.9.2?
This excerpt from the README file is a little confusing:

BIND 9.9.2

BIND 9.9.2 is a maintenance release and patches the security
flaw described in CVE-2012-4244.

BIND 9.9.1

BIND 9.9.1 is a maintenance release.

BIND 9.9.0

BIND 9.9.0 includes a number of changes from BIND 9.8 and earlier
releases.

Thanks

John Manson
CAO/HIR/NAF Data-Communications | U.S. House of Representatives | Washington, 
DC 20515
Desk: 202-226-4244 | TCC: 202-226-6430 | john.man...@mail.house.gov




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Re: Delegations

2012-11-01 Thread Chris Buxton
On Oct 31, 2012, at 2:31 PM, Kevin Darcy wrote:
> I know of at least 2 commerically-available DNS maintenance systems that, by 
> default, do not allow what they call "dotted hostnames", by which they mean a 
> name which is at least 2 labels below a zone cut, e.g. "foo.bar" in the 
> "example.com" zone. Their underlying assumption seems to be that *every* 
> level of the hierarchy will, in the usual/typical/default case, be delegated.

As an employee of a company that makes a DNS management product, I can say that 
there is a strong temptation to think this way when designing such a product. 
We have mostly managed to avoid this type of stupidity, but I still get tripped 
up by it occasionally. When I find it, it gets logged as a bug report, of 
course, because we have plenty of customers who rely on "dotted records".

Chris Buxton
BlueCat Networks
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Re: Delegations

2012-11-01 Thread Chris Buxton
On Oct 31, 2012, at 4:02 PM, Doug Barton wrote:
> On 10/31/2012 03:56 PM, Mark Andrews wrote:
>> You are equating a practice that was techically wrong, and known
>> to be wrong from the get go, with one that has never been techically
>> wrong.
> 
> Yes, I'm making exactly the same judgment that typical users make. "It
> works, so it must be Ok."
> 
> The fact that we ("experts") can get away with something, whether it's
> technically right/wrong/indifferent not withstanding, doesn't mean that
> it's good advice for the average user.

I must disagree with my learned colleague here.

Introducing the extra subzone for the current subdomain also introduces extra 
work if DNSSEC is later introduced. It can also cause as many problems as it 
solves even in the absence of DNSSEC.

As for the possibility of administrator error in the future, and making things 
futureproof, I would assert that stumbling when bad assumptions cause problems 
is the quickest way to learn the proper rules of DNS. Designing a system to 
match the possible wrong-headed assumptions of future admins results in a 
system akin to Microsoft's DNS snap-in for MMC, whereby users then develop 
mistakes in their thinking about how DNS works and therefore are unable to 
properly troubleshoot and fix real problems when they occur.

I would prefer to promote a correct understanding of the actual rules of DNS.

Chris Buxton
BlueCat Networks
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Re: BIND and DNSSEC

2012-11-01 Thread Sten Carlsen


On 01/11/12 12:26, Alan Clegg wrote:

On Nov 1, 2012, at 7:14 AM, Kobus Bensch  wrote:


Is that because split horizon doubles admin or because its bad all together?

I have been using split horizon for many years now and found it very useful. 
Any thoughts from any on the list would be most welcomed.

Crafted for a private reply, but being re-used here:

There are places that views/split-horizon fit the model that has been put into place.  It 
does, however, break the "one-question, one-answer" concept that was 
foundational for DNS.

My recommendation is that for "internal" addressing, a separate zone be created that serves that 
address space.  You gain a number of things from this, including easier debugging and better data security 
(no-longer are you concerned about exactly what clients are seeing at "www.internal.example.com" 
since you know that the only people able to resolve/route "internal.example.com" are the ones that 
should be able to).
I believe that thinking is no longer valid with laptops moving around. I 
assume you don't have enough public addresses to give everything its own 
address, I don't, my servers work through a NAT. They are behind NAT 
partly for lack of IPs and partly because I want to keep their other 
ports away from accidental exposure to script kiddies, I know more 
concerted efforts will do more harm.


The typical server setup (for own servers) is that one name is used for 
setting up e.g. the mail server, the ideal situation for everybody is 
that whether I am in house or visiting you, if I have any internet 
access, I can read and send mail.


Now if there is an internal zone with a different name, how will you set 
up the mail client? internal name is not accessible from outside and 
external name is not present in internal name space. -> two mail 
clients? changing setups when moving between networks?


My solution is to have the exactly same names internally and externally, 
any client SW will just ask for the same server but the IP will differ 
with the network segment.


IPv6 will change all that of course.

The problem lies in that over the years, people (usually the higher-ups) have been 
trained (by us, the in-the-trench guys) that "www.example.com" can be one thing 
internally and something else externally, or that their printer really _should_ be named 
myprinter.example.com and not myprinter.internal.example.com.

All the best,
AlanC


--
Best regards

Sten Carlsen

No improvements come from shouting:

   "MALE BOVINE MANURE!!!"

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Re: Delegations

2012-11-01 Thread WBrown
Jan-Piet Mens  wrote on 11/01/2012 07:09:14 AM:

> > YPYMAYTYP
> 
> Zero results from my favorite search engine -- congratulations. ;-)

Yeah, and bing didn't find it either!  :)



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Re: BIND and DNSSEC

2012-11-01 Thread Chris Thompson

On Nov 1 2012, Jan-Piet Mens wrote:


I do as well, and this will be documented in the next version of
this document.


I believe you've mentioned that here before. Several times. Today. ;-)


 "What I tell you three times is true.”

 The Bellman, pp Lewis Carroll

--
Chris Thompson
Email: c...@cam.ac.uk
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Re: BIND and DNSSEC

2012-11-01 Thread Jan-Piet Mens
> I do as well, and this will be documented in the next version of this 
> document.

I believe you've mentioned that here before. Several times. Today. ;-)

-JP
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Re: BIND and DNSSEC

2012-11-01 Thread Alan Clegg

On Nov 1, 2012, at 7:34 AM, Tony Finch  wrote:

> I recommend using "auto-dnssec maintain" so named keeps the zone signed,
> instead of dnssec-signzone.

I do as well, and this will be documented in the next version of this document.

AlanC
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Re: BIND and DNSSEC

2012-11-01 Thread Alan Clegg

On Nov 1, 2012, at 7:34 AM, Tony Finch  wrote:

> I recommend using "auto-dnssec maintain" so named keeps the zone signed,
> instead of dnssec-signzone.

I do as well, and this will be documented in the next version of this document.

AlanC
-- 
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Re: BIND and DNSSEC

2012-11-01 Thread Alan Clegg

On Nov 1, 2012, at 7:34 AM, Tony Finch  wrote:

> I recommend using "auto-dnssec maintain" so named keeps the zone signed,
> instead of dnssec-signzone.

I do as well, and this will be documented in the next version of this document.

AlanC
-- 
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Re: BIND and DNSSEC

2012-11-01 Thread Alan Clegg

On Nov 1, 2012, at 7:34 AM, Tony Finch  wrote:

> I recommend using "auto-dnssec maintain" so named keeps the zone signed,
> instead of dnssec-signzone.

I do as well, and this will be documented in the next version of this document.

AlanC
-- 
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Re: BIND and DNSSEC

2012-11-01 Thread Alan Clegg

On Nov 1, 2012, at 7:34 AM, Tony Finch  wrote:

> I recommend using "auto-dnssec maintain" so named keeps the zone signed,
> instead of dnssec-signzone.

I do as well, and this will be documented in the next version of this document.

AlanC
-- 
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Re: BIND and DNSSEC

2012-11-01 Thread Kobus Bensch
Thanks. All makes sense and definitely something to think about in the new 
network design.

Also wanted to say, I did like the doc and will be using that, but as you say, 
will make particular note about the maintenance side of things.

Thanks

Kobus

- Original Message -
From: "Alan Clegg" 
To: "Kobus Bensch" 
Cc: bind-users@lists.isc.org
Sent: Thursday, 1 November, 2012 11:26:31 AM
Subject: Re: BIND and DNSSEC


On Nov 1, 2012, at 7:14 AM, Kobus Bensch  wrote:

> Is that because split horizon doubles admin or because its bad all together?
> 
> I have been using split horizon for many years now and found it very useful. 
> Any thoughts from any on the list would be most welcomed.

Crafted for a private reply, but being re-used here:

There are places that views/split-horizon fit the model that has been put into 
place.  It does, however, break the "one-question, one-answer" concept that was 
foundational for DNS.

My recommendation is that for "internal" addressing, a separate zone be created 
that serves that address space.  You gain a number of things from this, 
including easier debugging and better data security (no-longer are you 
concerned about exactly what clients are seeing at "www.internal.example.com" 
since you know that the only people able to resolve/route 
"internal.example.com" are the ones that should be able to).

The problem lies in that over the years, people (usually the higher-ups) have 
been trained (by us, the in-the-trench guys) that "www.example.com" can be one 
thing internally and something else externally, or that their printer really 
_should_ be named myprinter.example.com and not myprinter.internal.example.com.

All the best,
AlanC
-- 
Alan Clegg | +1-919-355-8851 | a...@clegg.com






-- 
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7 Marlborough Close
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SL6 4LP
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Telephone: +44 (07703) 503 733

Kobus Bensch: kben...@fullnet.co.uk

Information: i...@fullnet.co.uk

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Re: BIND and DNSSEC

2012-11-01 Thread Tony Finch
Feng He  wrote:
>
> Take a look at:
> http://www.dnssec.lk/docs/DNSSEC_in_6_minutes.pdf

I recommend using "auto-dnssec maintain" so named keeps the zone signed,
instead of dnssec-signzone.

Tony.
-- 
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Forties, Cromarty: East, veering southeast, 4 or 5, occasionally 6 at first.
Rough, becoming slight or moderate. Showers, rain at first. Moderate or good,
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Re: BIND and DNSSEC

2012-11-01 Thread Alan Clegg

On Nov 1, 2012, at 7:14 AM, Kobus Bensch  wrote:

> Is that because split horizon doubles admin or because its bad all together?
> 
> I have been using split horizon for many years now and found it very useful. 
> Any thoughts from any on the list would be most welcomed.

Crafted for a private reply, but being re-used here:

There are places that views/split-horizon fit the model that has been put into 
place.  It does, however, break the "one-question, one-answer" concept that was 
foundational for DNS.

My recommendation is that for "internal" addressing, a separate zone be created 
that serves that address space.  You gain a number of things from this, 
including easier debugging and better data security (no-longer are you 
concerned about exactly what clients are seeing at "www.internal.example.com" 
since you know that the only people able to resolve/route 
"internal.example.com" are the ones that should be able to).

The problem lies in that over the years, people (usually the higher-ups) have 
been trained (by us, the in-the-trench guys) that "www.example.com" can be one 
thing internally and something else externally, or that their printer really 
_should_ be named myprinter.example.com and not myprinter.internal.example.com.

All the best,
AlanC
-- 
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Re: BIND and DNSSEC

2012-11-01 Thread Kobus Bensch
Hi

Is that because split horizon doubles admin or because its bad all together?

I have been using split horizon for many years now and found it very useful. 
Any thoughts from any on the list would be most welcomed.

Kobus

- Original Message -
From: "Alan Clegg" 
To: "Kobus Bensch" 
Cc: "Feng He" , bind-users@lists.isc.org
Sent: Thursday, 1 November, 2012 11:08:10 AM
Subject: Re: BIND and DNSSEC

On Nov 1, 2012, at 3:02 AM, Kobus Bensch  wrote:

> Thank you for this. Had a look and it seems fairly easy. Not sure if that is 
> a flippant remark. 

As the author of this document, I must say thanks.  Deploying DNSSEC is not 
hard.

It's the care and feeding after-the-fact (key rollover) that you must be 
extremely careful with.

> A question:  is implementing dnssec a good enough reason to abandon split 
> horizon DNS?

I'd find any excuse to abandon views/split-horizon.

AlanC
-- 
Alan Clegg | +1-919-355-8851 | a...@clegg.com






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7 Marlborough Close
Maidenhead
Berkshire
SL6 4LP
United Kingdom

Telephone: +44 (07703) 503 733

Kobus Bensch: kben...@fullnet.co.uk

Information: i...@fullnet.co.uk

WWW: http://www.fullnet.co.uk

Registered in England & Wales.
Company Number: 3568937

VAT registration number: UK 714 7309 42

E & O.E. All prices exclude VAT & Carriage unless otherwise specified.

This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended 
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you have received this email in error please notify the system administrator by 
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The content of this email does not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of 
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This footnote also confirms that this email message has been scanned for the 
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For more information regarding the solutions Fullnet has to offer please email 
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Re: Delegations

2012-11-01 Thread Sam Wilson
In article ,
 Jan-Piet Mens  wrote:

> > YPYMAYTYP
> 
> Zero results from my favorite search engine -- congratulations. ;-)

Thank you.  Try YPYMAYTYC but I was thinking pick.

Sam

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Scotland, with registration number SC005336.
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Re: Delegations

2012-11-01 Thread Jan-Piet Mens
> YPYMAYTYP

Zero results from my favorite search engine -- congratulations. ;-)

-JP
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Re: BIND and DNSSEC

2012-11-01 Thread Alan Clegg
On Nov 1, 2012, at 3:02 AM, Kobus Bensch  wrote:

> Thank you for this. Had a look and it seems fairly easy. Not sure if that is 
> a flippant remark. 

As the author of this document, I must say thanks.  Deploying DNSSEC is not 
hard.

It's the care and feeding after-the-fact (key rollover) that you must be 
extremely careful with.

> A question:  is implementing dnssec a good enough reason to abandon split 
> horizon DNS?

I'd find any excuse to abandon views/split-horizon.

AlanC
-- 
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Re: Delegations

2012-11-01 Thread Sam Wilson
In article ,
 Mark Andrews  wrote:

> In message <5091adef.1040...@dougbarton.us>, Doug Barton writes:
> > On 10/31/2012 03:56 PM, Mark Andrews wrote:
> > > You are equating a practice that was techically wrong, and known
> > > to be wrong from the get go, with one that has never been techically
> > > wrong.
> > 
> > Yes, I'm making exactly the same judgment that typical users make. "It
> > works, so it must be Ok."
> > 
> > The fact that we ("experts") can get away with something, whether it's
> > technically right/wrong/indifferent not withstanding, doesn't mean that
> > it's good advice for the average user.
> > 
> > Doug
> 
> Putting in delegations where they are not needed introduces additional
> work and more places that can go wrong.

And also (he said very quietly indeed after delurking) increases the 
granularity of management.  Being able to reload or work on a small 
(sub)zone rather than a large one can have advantages, which of course 
have to be balanced with the extra effort involved in setting such a 
system up.  YPYMAYTYP.

Sam

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Re: Using BIND-DLZ for a hidden master [was: Re: dns master-slave transfer]

2012-11-01 Thread Peter Andreev
2012/11/1 Chris Thompson :
> On Oct 29 2012, Feng He wrote:
>
>> 于 2012-10-29 9:58, kavin 写道:
>>>
>>> Now,I want transfer the zone data from the master dns serverto slave
>>> dns server ,the master dns use bind-dlz+mysql and the slave dns server
>>> use bind+file.
>>
>>
>> AFAIK, BIND DLZ doesn't send a notify message to slave, so both your
>> master and slave should be able to use the DLZ backend and run a mysql
>> replication for data sync.
>
>
> That exchange prompts me to ask whether anyone has managed to use
> BIND-DLZ in something like the following scenario.
>
> We have a hidden master for vanity zones (we call them something else
> for the punters) that runs in a small footprint virtual machine
> together with the web server providing the updating interface. The
> latter stores the data in a MySQL database.
>
> At the moment there is a crontab that extracts data from that database
> and updates zone files (if they need changing - there are some neat-o
> optimisations) and does an "rndc reload" on the hidden master daemon.
> That NOTIFYs the public nameservers for the zones, which are are in fact
> our regular authoritative-only ones.
>
> It seems that one ought to be able to use BIND-DLZ to cut out a step
> there, but none of the how-to's for it seem to address this sort of
> scenario, and the NOTIFY issue is particularly relevant. Fast responses
> from the hidden master to queries are certainly *not* a requirement here,
> and indeed we expect to be able to operate with it (and its MySQL database)
> down for significant periods.
>
> On the other hand, there is also a possibility that we might want to sign
> the vanity zones (we use JANET, Nominet and Gandi for their registrations,
> who all support signed delegations now), and how that would interact with
> BIND-DLZ might also be an issue. Can one use BIND 9.9 "inline signing"
> with the unsigned version provided by a DLZ interface?

In our case (big zones, distant servers) we have found DLZ very
inefficient because of huge overhead due to AXFRs. Another problem is
absence of NOTIFIes.

As for me the way your system is working now is much more simple,
predictable and reliable than DLZ.

>
> --
> Chris Thompson
> Email: c...@cam.ac.uk
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Re: BIND and DNSSEC

2012-11-01 Thread Kobus Bensch
Thank you for this. Had a look and it seems fairly easy. Not sure if that is a 
flippant remark. 

A question:  is implementing dnssec a good enough reason to abandon split 
horizon DNS?

Kobus 

Sent from my iPhone

On 1 Nov 2012, at 02:01, Feng He  wrote:

> 于 2012-10-31 23:05, Kobus Bensch 写道:
>> Can anybody point me in the direction of a good guide on setting up BIND 
>> split horizon DNS and DNSSEC?
> 
> Take a look at:
> http://www.dnssec.lk/docs/DNSSEC_in_6_minutes.pdf
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