Re: [Bloat] [Ecn-sane] My (controversial) position paper on TCP
Super, much appreciated! My thoughts about "effective lifetime" just got a long tail, possibly sufficient to wag the dog (:-)) Do you think we should be shifting to v6, and keeping v4 nearly invariant to address the long tail? --dave On 2019-03-20 6:28 p.m., Jonathan Morton wrote: > I still have a functioning "UFO"-style Apple Airport Base Station from about > 2000. I no longer have a convenient means of reconfiguring it (relies on a > real Mac within a certain range of vintages), let alone updating its > firmware, if Apple bothered to do that any more. > > A lot of those died early due to a bad batch of capacitors that were going > around at the time. I repaired mine, and it hasn't gone wrong since. Only > trouble is, it only supports 802.11b and 10baseT half duplex. And an > analogue modem which, again, I can no longer command conveniently. > > I also have a considerably better 2007 model. > > Both recently retired in favour of the IQrouter. > > - Jonathan Morton > > -- David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest dave.collier-br...@indexexchange.com | -- Mark Twain CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE AND DISCLAIMER : This telecommunication, including any and all attachments, contains confidential information intended only for the person(s) to whom it is addressed. Any dissemination, distribution, copying or disclosure is strictly prohibited and is not a waiver of confidentiality. If you have received this telecommunication in error, please notify the sender immediately by return electronic mail and delete the message from your inbox and deleted items folders. This telecommunication does not constitute an express or implied agreement to conduct transactions by electronic means, nor does it constitute a contract offer, a contract amendment or an acceptance of a contract offer. Contract terms contained in this telecommunication are subject to legal review and the completion of formal documentation and are not binding until same is confirmed in writing and has been signed by an authorized signatory. ___ Bloat mailing list Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
Re: [Bloat] [Ecn-sane] My (controversial) position paper on TCP
On Wed, 20 Mar 2019, David Collier-Brown wrote: On 2019-03-20 4:29 p.m., David Lang wrote: On Wed, 20 Mar 2019, David Collier-Brown wrote: On 2019-03-20 10:28 a.m., Mikael Abrahamsson wrote: This isn't a resource problem, it's a code problem. The IETF wants 10-15 year old hosts to be able to connect to a network and perform basic networking. It might not be very optimized, but the basic function should be there. New functionality can optimize for different factors, but making older host stop working is frowned upon. Fortunately this is a solved problem in capacity planning: you replace machines often enough that they're not constantly out of service being repaired. 10 to 15 human-years is the equivalent of 70 to 105 of the dog-years we use in this silly business (;-)) I have quite a number of consumer devices from 2000 or earlier still running, consumer endpoints (aka IoT devices) do not get updated very much, if at all. David Lang Interesting thought: I wasn't expecting consumer devices from 14 years ago! What do you have? I've got 4 Tivo's that have been in operation since 2000, they have add-on netork cards instead of the original dial-up. At the Scale conference earlier this month, I used a couple of dozen wndr3800 APs that were sold in 2010. They are actually still used extensively (I have updated software on them). I've seen a lot of people who still use the stock AP/router their ISP gave them when they signed up for service many years ago. Technology refreshes happen at (some) companies, many homes tend to run things untilthey break. Even at some companies, I've seen them running 7+ year old hardware in mission-critical production situations. David Lang In our house, * the cable modem is about a year old, * it's predecessor was about 5 when it died, * the old printer was 3 years old * the new one is about 4 * my homemade PVR is about 6, and is starting to look elderly, and * the old cable box was about 3, * the new one about one * and my netbook is older than the PVR by maybe a year or so (;-)) --dave (I intentionally skipped IOT devices, as I expect they could change/pivot hugely about the time the market starts to mature, ___ Bloat mailing list Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
Re: [Bloat] [Ecn-sane] My (controversial) position paper on TCP
I still have a functioning "UFO"-style Apple Airport Base Station from about 2000. I no longer have a convenient means of reconfiguring it (relies on a real Mac within a certain range of vintages), let alone updating its firmware, if Apple bothered to do that any more. A lot of those died early due to a bad batch of capacitors that were going around at the time. I repaired mine, and it hasn't gone wrong since. Only trouble is, it only supports 802.11b and 10baseT half duplex. And an analogue modem which, again, I can no longer command conveniently. I also have a considerably better 2007 model. Both recently retired in favour of the IQrouter. - Jonathan Morton ___ Bloat mailing list Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
Re: [Bloat] [Ecn-sane] My (controversial) position paper on TCP
On 2019-03-20 4:29 p.m., David Lang wrote: On Wed, 20 Mar 2019, David Collier-Brown wrote: On 2019-03-20 10:28 a.m., Mikael Abrahamsson wrote: This isn't a resource problem, it's a code problem. The IETF wants 10-15 year old hosts to be able to connect to a network and perform basic networking. It might not be very optimized, but the basic function should be there. New functionality can optimize for different factors, but making older host stop working is frowned upon. Fortunately this is a solved problem in capacity planning: you replace machines often enough that they're not constantly out of service being repaired. 10 to 15 human-years is the equivalent of 70 to 105 of the dog-years we use in this silly business (;-)) I have quite a number of consumer devices from 2000 or earlier still running, consumer endpoints (aka IoT devices) do not get updated very much, if at all. David Lang Interesting thought: I wasn't expecting consumer devices from 14 years ago! What do you have? In our house, * the cable modem is about a year old, * it's predecessor was about 5 when it died, * the old printer was 3 years old * the new one is about 4 * my homemade PVR is about 6, and is starting to look elderly, and * the old cable box was about 3, * the new one about one * and my netbook is older than the PVR by maybe a year or so (;-)) --dave (I intentionally skipped IOT devices, as I expect they could change/pivot hugely about the time the market starts to mature, -- David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest dav...@spamcop.net | -- Mark Twain ___ Bloat mailing list Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
Re: [Bloat] [Ecn-sane] My (controversial) position paper on TCP
On Wed, 20 Mar 2019, David Collier-Brown wrote: On 2019-03-20 10:28 a.m., Mikael Abrahamsson wrote: This isn't a resource problem, it's a code problem. The IETF wants 10-15 year old hosts to be able to connect to a network and perform basic networking. It might not be very optimized, but the basic function should be there. New functionality can optimize for different factors, but making older host stop working is frowned upon. Fortunately this is a solved problem in capacity planning: you replace machines often enough that they're not constantly out of service being repaired. 10 to 15 human-years is the equivalent of 70 to 105 of the dog-years we use in this silly business (;-)) I have quite a number of consumer devices from 2000 or earlier still running, consumer endpoints (aka IoT devices) do not get updated very much, if at all. David Lang___ Bloat mailing list Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat ___ Bloat mailing list Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
Re: [Bloat] [Ecn-sane] My (controversial) position paper on TCP
On 2019-03-20 10:28 a.m., Mikael Abrahamsson wrote: On Mon, 18 Mar 2019, Dave Taht wrote: Another ietf idea that makes me crazy is the motto of "no host changes" in homenet, and "dumb endpoints" - when we live in an age where we have quad cores and AI coprocessors in everybody's hands. Dumb endpoints is a huge change from the design of the internet (and ARPAnet), with a dumb middle and smart ends: I suspect the original commentator was talking about mere /relative/ dumbness... This isn't a resource problem, it's a code problem. The IETF wants 10-15 year old hosts to be able to connect to a network and perform basic networking. It might not be very optimized, but the basic function should be there. New functionality can optimize for different factors, but making older host stop working is frowned upon. Fortunately this is a solved problem in capacity planning: you replace machines often enough that they're not constantly out of service being repaired. 10 to 15 human-years is the equivalent of 70 to 105 of the dog-years we use in this silly business (;-)) The oldest machine I use is a dps8-m, and I'll be slightly amazed if we can provide native TCP. Right now I ssh into the virtual machine that's running it, all so I can continue to fiddle around with Multics. --dave (davidbrown.t...@hi-multics.arpa) c-b -- David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest dav...@spamcop.net | -- Mark Twain ___ Bloat mailing list Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
Re: [Bloat] [Ecn-sane] My (controversial) position paper on TCP
On Mon, 18 Mar 2019, Dave Taht wrote: Another ietf idea that makes me crazy is the motto of "no host changes" in homenet, and "dumb endpoints" - when we live in an age where we have quad cores and AI coprocessors in everybody's hands. This isn't a resource problem, it's a code problem. The IETF wants 10-15 year old hosts to be able to connect to a network and perform basic networking. It might not be very optimized, but the basic function should be there. New functionality can optimize for different factors, but making older host stop working is frowned upon. If the endpoints are going to be smarter (and they will, question is how fast), how do we keep the smarts updated with new functionality? TCP does the same thing, it wants to be backwards compatible and that's why QUIC has been more free to innovate in some fashions. I also believe it's perhaps time to cut TCP off and come up with something new, the bad part is that it seems all innovation then has to be done over UDP which has its own drawbacks (because of NATs). -- Mikael Abrahamssonemail: swm...@swm.pp.se ___ Bloat mailing list Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
