Re: [Bloat] COTS router with OpenWrt

[Jonathan Foulkes]

Thanks for the Introduction Rich, and thanks again to you and many others on 
this list for all your contributions over the years helping to combat bloat.

This product was born of my own frustration with finding a way to help 
neighbors and family get a simple off-the-shelf solution that even 
non-technical users can deploy. 

I look forward to participating more actively on this list.

Jonathan

> On Nov 26, 2016, at 9:08 AM, Rich Brown  wrote:
> 
> I have been exchanging a few emails with Jonathan Foulkes from evenroute.com. 
> He tells me that his company is installing OpenWrt on a commercial, off the 
> shelf (COTS) TP-Link router and selling them on commercially. His "secret 
> sauce" is an auto-update facility and improved setup software, which includes 
> a rate-detection step that operates continually to adjust the fq_codel 
> parameters to the actual line rate. You can take a look at IQrouter.com, or 
> look them up on Amazon.
> 
> This might be a solution to our current conundrum about not having an easy 
> solution that solves our family's networking problem. I'm going to get one of 
> these and try it out.
> 
> He has been following our bufferbloat and make-fifi-fast work closely, as 
> well as the work on LEDE, which he'll consider once it hits a stable point. I 
> have invited him to join this list. 
> 
> Welcome, Jonathan.
> 
> 

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Re: [Bloat] COTS router with OpenWrt

[Toke Høiland-Jørgensen]

Jonathan Foulkes  writes:

> Hi Dave, a special thanks to you for all the cheerleading and pushing you do 
> on this topic.
>
>> I hope that your marketing campaign is being successful on these
>> fronts. It has always been my goal to "enable better products", but
>> not have the headache of making them myself, where 99.99% of the
>> effort is (like in cerowrt), in making everything else "just work" and
>> be reliable enough to ship.
>
> I haven’t ramped up the marketing in a big way yet, but what I am
> doing is quite effective (e.g. click through metrics are 5 to 10x the
> norm); what’s been most astonishing is the word of mouth spread.
>
> Yes, lots of effort in having a reliable, supportable product. 
>
> As you can see from the site, my messaging has been focused on regular
> end users, using terminology they can hopefully grasp (I get accused
> of both being too technical and not technical enough, so maybe I got
> it right ;-)
>
> One area of messaging that I believe members of this list could
> provide input on is around how to get people to understand that
> ‘speed’ (line capacity) is not everything. I keep looking for ways to
> address that and wrote a short post on it:
> http://evenroute.com/the-last-50-feet/quick-vs-fast

Well, there's Stuart's classic rant from two decades ago (which is on
the technical side):
http://www.stuartcheshire.org/rants/Latency.html

On the less technical side, there's this video from the RITE project:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1a-eMF9xdY

And this one that nicely showcases latency, but then draws the wrong
conclusion (that you need more bandwidth to fix it):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fNp37zFn9Q

-Toke
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Re: [Bloat] COTS router with OpenWrt

[Jonathan Foulkes]

Hi Dave, a special thanks to you for all the cheerleading and pushing you do on 
this topic.

> I hope that your marketing campaign is being successful on these
> fronts. It has always been my goal to "enable better products", but
> not have the headache of making them myself, where 99.99% of the
> effort is (like in cerowrt), in making everything else "just work" and
> be reliable enough to ship.


I haven’t ramped up the marketing in a big way yet, but what I am doing is 
quite effective (e.g. click through metrics are 5 to 10x the norm); what’s been 
most astonishing is the word of mouth spread.

Yes, lots of effort in having a reliable, supportable product. 

As you can see from the site, my messaging has been focused on regular end 
users, using terminology they can hopefully grasp (I get accused of both being 
too technical and not technical enough, so maybe I got it right ;-)

One area of messaging that I believe members of this list could provide input 
on is around how to get people to understand that ‘speed’ (line capacity) is 
not everything. I keep looking for ways to address that and wrote a short post 
on it: http://evenroute.com/the-last-50-feet/quick-vs-fast

I’ll post more thoughts on the other thread you started.

- Jonathan

> On Nov 28, 2016, at 10:57 AM, Dave Taht  wrote:
> 
> On Mon, Nov 28, 2016 at 7:21 AM, Jonathan Foulkes
>  wrote:
>> Thanks for the Introduction Rich, and thanks again to you and many others on 
>> this list for all your contributions over the years helping to combat bloat.
>> 
>> This product was born of my own frustration with finding a way to help 
>> neighbors and family get a simple off-the-shelf solution that even 
>> non-technical users can deploy.
> 
> I hope that your marketing campaign is being successful on these
> fronts. It has always been my goal to "enable better products", but
> not have the headache of making them myself, where 99.99% of the
> effort is (like in cerowrt), in making everything else "just work" and
> be reliable enough to ship.
> 
>> 
>> I look forward to participating more actively on this list.
> 
> One of my thoughts has been since it has become so difficult in the
> USA for an open source organization to achieve 501c3 status (icei.org
> is now 5 years into their attempt) was to go the 501c6 route, like the
> linux foundation. We now have a reasonable set of companies doing the
> right things for queueing, updates, and so on, that perhaps banding
> together to promote "less lag, regular updates" would be a way to
> support some of the other costs of this effort, such as effective
> outreach.
> 
>> 
>> Jonathan
>> 
>>> On Nov 26, 2016, at 9:08 AM, Rich Brown  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I have been exchanging a few emails with Jonathan Foulkes from 
>>> evenroute.com. He tells me that his company is installing OpenWrt on a 
>>> commercial, off the shelf (COTS) TP-Link router and selling them on 
>>> commercially. His "secret sauce" is an auto-update facility and improved 
>>> setup software, which includes a rate-detection step that operates 
>>> continually to adjust the fq_codel parameters to the actual line rate. You 
>>> can take a look at IQrouter.com, or look them up on Amazon.
>>> 
>>> This might be a solution to our current conundrum about not having an easy 
>>> solution that solves our family's networking problem. I'm going to get one 
>>> of these and try it out.
>>> 
>>> He has been following our bufferbloat and make-fifi-fast work closely, as 
>>> well as the work on LEDE, which he'll consider once it hits a stable point. 
>>> I have invited him to join this list.
>>> 
>>> Welcome, Jonathan.
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
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> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Dave Täht
> Let's go make home routers and wifi faster! With better software!
> http://blog.cerowrt.org

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Re: [Bloat] COTS router with OpenWrt

[Dave Taht]

On Mon, Nov 28, 2016 at 7:21 AM, Jonathan Foulkes
 wrote:
> Thanks for the Introduction Rich, and thanks again to you and many others on 
> this list for all your contributions over the years helping to combat bloat.
>
> This product was born of my own frustration with finding a way to help 
> neighbors and family get a simple off-the-shelf solution that even 
> non-technical users can deploy.

I hope that your marketing campaign is being successful on these
fronts. It has always been my goal to "enable better products", but
not have the headache of making them myself, where 99.99% of the
effort is (like in cerowrt), in making everything else "just work" and
be reliable enough to ship.

>
> I look forward to participating more actively on this list.

One of my thoughts has been since it has become so difficult in the
USA for an open source organization to achieve 501c3 status (icei.org
is now 5 years into their attempt) was to go the 501c6 route, like the
linux foundation. We now have a reasonable set of companies doing the
right things for queueing, updates, and so on, that perhaps banding
together to promote "less lag, regular updates" would be a way to
support some of the other costs of this effort, such as effective
outreach.

>
> Jonathan
>
>> On Nov 26, 2016, at 9:08 AM, Rich Brown  wrote:
>>
>> I have been exchanging a few emails with Jonathan Foulkes from 
>> evenroute.com. He tells me that his company is installing OpenWrt on a 
>> commercial, off the shelf (COTS) TP-Link router and selling them on 
>> commercially. His "secret sauce" is an auto-update facility and improved 
>> setup software, which includes a rate-detection step that operates 
>> continually to adjust the fq_codel parameters to the actual line rate. You 
>> can take a look at IQrouter.com, or look them up on Amazon.
>>
>> This might be a solution to our current conundrum about not having an easy 
>> solution that solves our family's networking problem. I'm going to get one 
>> of these and try it out.
>>
>> He has been following our bufferbloat and make-fifi-fast work closely, as 
>> well as the work on LEDE, which he'll consider once it hits a stable point. 
>> I have invited him to join this list.
>>
>> Welcome, Jonathan.
>>
>>
>
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-- 
Dave Täht
Let's go make home routers and wifi faster! With better software!
http://blog.cerowrt.org
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Re: [Bloat] COTS router with OpenWrt

[Jonathan Morton]

> On 26 Nov, 2016, at 16:08, Rich Brown  wrote:
> 
> His "secret sauce" is an auto-update facility and improved setup software, 
> which includes a rate-detection step that operates continually to adjust the 
> fq_codel parameters to the actual line rate. You can take a look at 
> IQrouter.com, or look them up on Amazon.
> 
> This might be a solution to our current conundrum about not having an easy 
> solution that solves our family's networking problem. I'm going to get one of 
> these and try it out.

Excellent.

He’s using DSLreports for the quality testing, which is always a good sign.  
After turning off my webcache, I get a nice “A” grade over here while running 
through my custom Cake setup, and a big fat “F” grade with Cake turned off.  
Just as it should be, given my connection.

With the webcache left on, though, I just get errors, not results.  That might 
be something to get fixed.

I think we can rally around this device, if it works as well as advertised (and 
it should).  I know of a handful of well-placed people who could potentially 
try out and endorse it, but I would like to see some of us trying it out before 
I involve them.

 - Jonathan Morton

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