Re: What America Does with its Hegemony

[Doug Pensinger]

Gautam wrote:
Since Bill Clinton himself has stated on many
occasions that he agreed with the Bush
Administration's interpretation of Iraqi threat,
that's a remarkable statement of his omniscience
there, Doug.
Would Clinton have depended on stove piped intelligence from expatriate 
Iraqis with an agenda to make the case for invasion, while ignoring 
evidence to the contrary from more reliable sources?  Would Clinton have 
commissioned a study on the costs and difficulties of a war on Iraq and 
then ignored its results?  Would Clinton have cut short the new inspection 
regimen that was revealing that Iraq had no stockpiles of WMDs?

You are right (and I was wrong), Clinton believed that Iraq was a threat.  
But he never would have approached the problem in the haphazard, 
incompetent manner the Bush administration has.

--
Doug
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Re: Brin: group still active?

[David Land]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Voice of the web server:
What do you mean it was out?
Golly, it's nice out. I think I'll leave it out.
Nick's server has been "out" of the server closet for a couple of years.
Aww come on, it was in by a mile!
Are you blind?
It's not "mcenroemedia.com," you know.
Dave

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Re: Brin: group still active?

[Ronn!Blankenship]

At 11:05 PM 5/20/04, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In a message dated 5/20/2004 7:57:48 PM US Mountain Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> The web server was just unhappy... but I believe I just fixed it.
>
> Nick
>
>
Voice of the web server:
What do you mean it was out?
Aww come on, it was in by a mile!
Are you blind?
*  *  *  *  *
How did you fix the server?

He removed its gonads.

-- Ronn!  :)

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Re: Brin: group still active?

[Medievalbk]

In a message dated 5/20/2004 7:57:48 PM US Mountain Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

> The web server was just unhappy... but I believe I just fixed it.
> 
> Nick
> 
> 

Voice of the web server:

What do you mean it was out?

Aww come on, it was in by a mile!

Are you blind?

*  *  *  *  *

How did you fix the server?

Vilyehm
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Re: Brin: group still active?

[Nick Arnett]

d.brin wrote:
Hi folks.
My web person just reported the following:
"
I just found out that the Brin-L discussion group's link 
(http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l) isn't active. Do they 
have a new site address?
The web server was just unhappy... but I believe I just fixed it.
Nick
--
Nick Arnett
Director, Business Intelligence Services
LiveWorld Inc.
Phone/fax: (408) 551-0427
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: The Savage Solution

[Keith Henson]

At 09:26 AM 20/05/04 -0500, Dan Minette wrote:
snip
The problem I have with evolutionary psychology is that it is an a
posterori general explaination.  So, I thought I might deal with this by
asking some questions about an area that can be explained by arguements
similar to that you have given above: Battered women.  My wife has worked
years with battered women, and has written her master's thesis in that
area.  So, I am at least moderately familiar with this area, and have a
resource for getting more information.
Excellent!
So, let me ask some general questions:
Are there any factors that predict that a woman is more likely to enter a
relationship with someone who batters her?
Are there any factors that predict whether a woman will leave such a
relationship?
Is a battered woman more or less likely to be abusive to her children?
I would very much appreciate a discussion that starts with evolutionary
psychology and then shows how the predictions can be deduced from the basic
premises.
First, EP (and for that matter evolutionary biology generally) states that 
features of a species (including behaviors) are either the result of direct 
selection for the feature or a side effect of something that was selected.

Now I can't see *any* logic for battering behavior for either the man or 
the woman to be selected--any more than susceptibility to addictive drugs 
is selected.  Damaging the mother of your children is not an effective way 
to pass on genes.  Further, battering women is rare in the hunter gatherer 
societies that have been studied.  (Others are almost always within earshot 
and intervene before damage is done.)

So the default assumption is that battering behavior on both sides is a 
side effect of other things that were selected.  Capture of women in hunter 
gatherer societies was probably the gene selection filter.  Those that 
reoriented toward their captors often became ancestors, those who did not 
did not become breakfast.. Perhaps 10% of your ancestors were captives.

The argument for where the abuser side came from is something I only 
recently figured out:

 "If humans respond to capture and abuse by bonding, then the trait to 
abuse captives is likely to have also been selected.  The argument isn't as 
obvious as the survival link with capture-bonding.  But it figures that in 
a world where 10% of an average tribe's females were captured, those who 
had the genes for an "instinct" for the brutal behavior needed to capture 
and turn on the capture-bonding trait in the captives left more descendents 
than those without it.

 "And, like the capture-bonding trait, over a long enough time the 
trait to induce capture-bonding would become nearly universal.  I.e., it 
would be triggered in response to the conditions needed to turn it on.  I 
suspect that's the evolutionary origin of the trait expressed by the 
"guards" in Zimbardo's famous Stanford prison 
experiment.  http://www.prisonexp.org/ The trait to be brutal gets 
automatically switched on by the mere presence of captives.

 "I am open to a name for the "trait to induce capture-bonding"  (Or 
we could use the acronym TTICB.)

Of course, battered wife is an arrested or recirculating (trapped) version 
of the capture-bonding sequence.  Capture-bonding in the human "wild state" 
was a one time event, applied to captives for about the time hazing is today.

There is a bit of a precursor to this trait in chimpanzees.  Males are 
fairly brutal at first to females they take out of the group into remote 
areas during "consortships."  I would not say female chimpanzees bond with 
males who take them on consortships, but they do quit trying to escape 
after a few beatings.

Back to your questions:
> Are there any factors that predict that a woman is more likely to enter a
> relationship with someone who batters her?
Probably not.  Since the ability to respond to capture bonding was so 
strongly selected for so long, the trait is probably close to 
universal--and not just in human females, captured males exhibit the same 
bonding trait to captors.  Since the mechanism is in the same class as drug 
addiction, theory would predict that high intelligence does not protect 
against being in a battered relationship any more than it protects against 
drugs.

Theory *does* predict that battered women will rationalize the heck out of 
their situation, but we already knew that.

> Are there any factors that predict whether a woman will leave such a
> relationship?
Unfortunately no.
It is possible that explaining the evolved psychology of what is going on 
to both parties might help in some case.  I remember explaining another 
psychological mechanism, drug like attention rewards, to an 
ex-scientologist.  He reported later that understanding (or at least having 
a plausible explanation) for what had screwed up his life and that of his 
children was a great relief and stopped his nightmares cold.

Humans *can* invoke higher order rational mental mec

Re: group still active?

[Robert Seeberger]

- Original Message - 
From: "d.brin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2004 8:20 PM
Subject: Brin: group still active?


> Hi folks.
>
> My web person just reported the following:
>
> "
> I just found out that the Brin-L discussion group's link
> (http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l) isn't active. Do
> they have a new site address?
> "

You don't think we would go fight the Gubru without ya?

xponent
Long Live The List Maru
rob


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Re: Brin: group still active?

[The Fool]

--
From: d.brin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Hi folks.

My web person just reported the following:

"
I just found out that the Brin-L discussion group's link 
(http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l) isn't active. Do 
they have a new site address?
"

I like to link fans to the list.  How now?

-
It still seems active to me.

Perhaps a server crashed or is busy.
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Brin: group still active?

[d.brin]

Hi folks.
My web person just reported the following:
"
I just found out that the Brin-L discussion group's link 
(http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l) isn't active. Do 
they have a new site address?
"

I like to link fans to the list.  How now?
See the latest re the sci fi museum opening!
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ShrubFuhrer Ends Support for Caribbean Democracy

[The Fool]

<>

Bushwhacked In the Caribbean 


By Randall Robinson

Wednesday, May 19, 2004; Page A23 


BASSETERRE, St. Kitts -- On Feb. 29 the legally elected government of
Haiti was driven from power by armed force. Its president, after being
taken against his will to the Central African Republic, was given refuge
in Jamaica. The Bush administration's response has been to demand that
the democratic countries of the Caribbean (1) drop their call for an
investigation into the ouster of President Jean-Bertrand Aristide, (2)
push the Aristide family out of Jamaica and the region, and (3) abandon
their policy of admitting only democratically elected governments into
the councils of Caricom (a multilateral organization established by the
English-speaking Caribbean countries 31 years ago to promote regional
cooperation).

In addition, national security adviser Condoleezza Rice has warned
Caricom leaders that if one U.S. soldier is killed in Haiti, Caribbean
governments will be held responsible because the Aristide family was
granted sanctuary in the region. In short, the Bush administration is
strong-arming the Caribbean to confer on Haiti's new "government," headed
by Gerard Latortue, a legitimacy it has not earned and does not deserve.
Indeed, 33 of the 39 members of the Congressional Black Caucus stayed
away from a recent Washington meeting arranged by two congressmen for
Latortue.

The United States' demand that Caricom abandon its long-held insistence
on democratic principles is psychic poison to the region. When Eastern
Europe was going through its totalitarian nightmare, when coups and
despotic rule were "normal" in Central and South America, and when civil
strife and dictatorship wracked much of Africa and Asia, the Caribbean
steadfastly upheld its democratic traditions -- and it continues to do so
today. This is because of the region's well-educated populace and the
caliber of its leaders; no military thugs in business suits here. From
Rhodes Scholar-Prime Minister Percival J. Patterson of Jamaica in the
north, to professor-lawyer Prime Minister Ralph Gonslaves in the south
(St. Vincent-Grenadines), and from the physician Prime Minister Denzil
Douglas in tiny St. Kitts-Nevis to the economist Prime Minister Owen
Arthur in Barbados, Caribbean heads of government understand the lessons
of history. They recognize the supremacy of the ballot. And they know
that only democratic values will keep the Caribbean a zone of peace.
Reinhold Niebuhr warned that man's capacity for justice makes democracy
possible, but that man's inclination to injustice makes democracy
necessary. Yet the United States has unleashed its venom on Caribbean
governments because they have proclaimed Caricom's democratic principles
to be inviolable.

Haiti was welcomed as a full member of Caricom because its people had
established a democratic form of government. After the recent shattering
of that democracy, Caribbean heads of government decided to maintain
support for the people of Haiti but allow democratic elections to
determine who will represent Haiti in the councils of Caricom. "We are
the children of slaves," one Caribbean national explained. "And so, we
stay away from the tyranny of the unelected. . . . If America thinks that
an unelected government is fine for Haiti, when will they say that an
unelected government is best for my country?"

The Bush administration, however, has been implacable. Its officials were
to have come to the Caribbean in April and May to discuss, among other
things, terrorism, but the administration presented Caribbean governments
with an ultimatum: no recognition of Latortue, no meetings between the
United States and the Caribbean leaders. Caricom reminded U.S. officials
that Latortue was not elected by anyone. And so the meetings are off. Why
is the unelected Latortue more important to the Bush administration than
the Caribbean's 14 democratically elected governments?

Americans must speak out against their government's behavior abroad. And
they must recognize that the atrocities inflicted by U.S. soldiers on
Iraqi prisoners grow out of a hubris and contempt that far too many U.S.
officials display when dealing with much of the rest of the world. If
stable Caribbean democracies are being slapped around by America because
they uphold democratic values, who is safe in this unipolar world?
Certainly not the American people, who are being made targets of global
rage because of these tactics.


--
"If voting could really change things, it would be illegal." - Diebold
Internal Memos

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Fight The Future: The Right to Read / Write: Fascist Censorship Enters the Schools

[The Fool]

<>

Hard lessons from poetry class: Speech is free unless it's critical 


By BILL HILL 

Last update: 15 May 2004 

 
Bill Nevins, a New Mexico high school teacher and personal friend, was
fired last year and classes in poetry and the poetry club at Rio Rancho
High School were permanently terminated. It had nothing to do with
obscenity, but it had everything to do with extremist politics.

The "Slam Team" was a group of teenage poets who asked Nevins to serve as
faculty adviser to their club. The teens, mostly shy youngsters, were
taught to read their poetry aloud and before audiences. Rio Rancho High
School gave the Slam Team access to the school's closed-circuit
television once a week and the poets thrived.

In March 2003, a teenage girl named Courtney presented one of her poems
before an audience at Barnes & Noble bookstore in Albuquerque, then read
the poem live on the school's closed-circuit television channel.

A school military liaison and the high school principal accused the girl
of being "un-American" because she criticized the war in Iraq and the
Bush administration's failure to give substance to its "No child left
behind" education policy.

The girl's mother, also a teacher, was ordered by the principal to
destroy the child's poetry. The mother refused and may lose her job.

Bill Nevins was suspended for not censoring the poetry of his students.
Remember, there is no obscenity to be found in any of the poetry. He was
later fired by the principal.

After firing Nevins and terminating the teaching and reading of poetry in
the school, the principal and the military liaison read a poem of their
own as they raised the flag outside the school. When the principal had
the flag at full staff, he applauded the action he'd taken in concert
with the military liaison.

Then to all students and faculty who did not share his political
opinions, the principal shouted: "Shut your faces." What a wonderful
lesson he gave those 3,000 students at the largest public high school in
New Mexico. In his mind, only certain opinions are to be allowed.

But more was to come. Posters done by art students were ordered torn
down, even though none was termed obscene. Some were satirical,
implicating a national policy that had led us into war. Art teachers who
refused to rip down the posters on display in their classrooms were not
given contracts to return to the school in this current school year.

The message is plain. Critical thinking, questioning of public policies
and freedom of speech are not to be allowed to anyone who does not share
the thinking of the school principal.

The teachers union has been joined in a legal action against the school
by the National Writers Union, headquartered in New York City. NWU's
at-large representative Samantha Clark lives and works in Albuquerque.

The American Civil Liberties Union has become the legal arm of the
lawsuit pending in federal court.

Meanwhile, Nevins applied for a teaching post in another school and was
offered the job but he can't go to work until Rio Rancho's principal
sends the new school Nevins' credentials. The principal has refused to do
so, and that adds yet another issue to the lawsuit, which is awaiting a
trial date.

While students are denied poetry readings, poetry clubs and classes in
poetry, Nevins works elsewhere and writes his own poetry.

Writers and editors who have spent years translating essays, films,
poems, scientific articles and books by Iranian, North Korean and
Sudanese authors have been warned not to do so by the U.S. Treasury
Department under penalty of fine and imprisonment. Publishers and film
producers are not allowed to edit works authored by writers in those
nations. The Bush administration contends doing so has the effect of
trading with the enemy, despite a 1988 law that exempts published
materials from sanction under trade rules.

Robert Bovenschulte, president of the American Chemical Society, is
challenging the rule interpretation by violating it to edit into English
several scientific papers from Iran.

Are book burnings next?


"As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression. In both
instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly
unchanged. And it is in such twilight that we all must be most aware of
change in the air - however slight - lest we become unwitting victims of
the darkness."
--Justice William O. Douglas
 

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ShrubCo Breaks Anti-Propaganda law in Election Bid

[The Fool]

<>

GAO says Medicare videos violated law 
By Emily Heil, CongressDaily


The Bush administration violated anti-propaganda law when it distributed
videos to news stations earlier this year about the newly passed Medicare
prescription drug law, the General Accounting Office said Wednesday.
Parts of the "video news releases" that the Centers for Medicare and
Medicaid Services issued were not properly identified as coming from a
government source, the GAO found, making their distribution a violation
of the law that bans the use of public funds for publicity or propaganda.

Democrats have complained that, under the guise of educating
beneficiaries, the administration hyped the new Medicare bill in a bid to
curry political favor with voters, particularly older Americans.

Democrats requested that GAO look into whether the administration's s and
direct-mail fliers violated anti-propaganda law, and although GAO found
the fliers were legal, it widened the probe to examine the use of VNRs.

GAO determined that part of the VNR materials did not make it clear the
government was the source of the information, including "news stories"
narrated by people acting as reporters who were actually hired by the
government's subcontractor, and suggested scripts for TV anchors to use.

CMS had argued that it properly identified the entire package as coming
from the government. But those portions of the video package were
targeted not only at TV news producers, but TV viewers, GAO said. "CMS's
effort to identify itself to the news organizations that received the
VNRs did not alert television viewers that CMS was the source of the
story package."

The finding could pave the way for lawsuits. An HHS spokesman said
department officials disagreed with the ruling, arguing that TV producers
were free to attribute the story.

"They could have said 'brought to you by,'" the spokesman said. He also
noted that GAO rulings are nonbinding and would not say whether HHS plans
to comply with GAO's determination that the agency should report the
misuse of funds to Congress and the president.

Democrats, meanwhile, pointed to the GAO findings as another cloud over
the passage of the controversial new Medicare law.

"It was bad enough to conceal the cost of the Medicare drug bill from the
Congress and the American people," said Senate Health, Education, Labor
and Pensions ranking member Edward Kennedy, D-Mass., referring to a
related controversy over differing estimates of the cost of the Medicare
bill. "It is worse to use Medicare funds for illegal propaganda to try to
turn this lemon of a bill into lemonade for the Bush campaign."

Sen. Frank Lautenberg, D-N.J., who requested the initial GAO probe into
the fliers, said he would introduce emergency legislation today requiring
the Bush-Cheney campaign to return taxpayer dollars spent on the VNRs to
Medicare.

"The Bush administration has illegally spent Medicare funds on covert
political activities," Lautenberg said. "The Bush-Cheney campaign should
pay every dime they spent on these fake news stories back to our seniors.
These funds were meant to help our seniors, not the president's
re-election campaign."

House Ways and Means ranking member Charles Rangel, D-N.Y., and Health
Subcommittee ranking member Fortney (Pete) Stark, D-Calif., said they
would ask local stations that broadcast the VNR to run retractions or
corrections noting that the administration erred in sending out the VNRs.

The GAO's finding is the latest in a string of problems for the new law.

A group of House Government Reform Committee Democrats is suing to gain
access to HHS cost estimates for the bill while Congress was debating it.

And an HHS inspector general's investigation also is under way to
determine allegations by Chief Medicare Actuary Richard Foster that
former CMS Administrator Thomas Scully threatened to fire him if he
shared the administration's higher estimates for the Medicare bill with
members of Congress.


-
I Pledge Impertinence to the Flag-Waving of the Unindicted
Co-Conspirators of America
and to the Republicans for which I can't stand
one Abomination, Underhanded Fraud
Indefensible
with Liberty and Justice Forget it.

 -Life in Hell (Matt Groening)

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Re: Researchers hail dyslexia breakthrough

[Gary Denton]

On Thu, 20 May 2004 15:41:13 +0100, William T Goodall
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> http://education.guardian.co.uk/higher/research/story/
> 0,9865,1220980,00.html?=rss
> 
> "Researchers who have monitored a new treatment for dyslexia today
> hailed it "as close to a cure as there is".

Just by the language I would be skeptical.

It turns out I am not the only one.

http://www.dyslexia-teacher.com/DDAT.html
http://www.dyslexia-teacher.com/t134.html

The following is a more comprehensive and balanced look.

http://education.independent.co.uk/schools/story.jsp?story=369798

The researcher trumpets claims and requires over $2,000 for his
commercial treatment program which had not been scientifically vetted
until one recent small study. Those scientists recommend larger
studies.
Still, it does look promising.

Gary "always wanting some science" Denton
#1 on Google for liberal news
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Re: The Savage Solution

[Richard Baker]

Dan said:

> The problem I have with evolutionary psychology is that it is an a
> posterori general explaination.

The problem I have with evolutionary psychology and "memetics"
(especially in combination) is that I often find it hard to see what the
theory being proposed actually is. This is especially true of the latter
- I find it difficult to see how much of any given memetic discussion is
just a fairly simple explanation clothed in a language of memes and
feedback loops and so forth, how much depends on specific properties of
given memes in non-obvious ways, and how much of the explanation really
hinges on human psychology itself rather than the memes in question. I
don't get the same problem when reading and thinking about the genetics
or evolution of non-psychological traits or even of behavioural traits
in sociobiology and ethology.

I will certainly think about Keith's messages on the subject more when I
have some free time!

Rich
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Re: Numbers on the rebuilding of Afghanistan

[Dan Minette]

- Original Message - 
From: "JDG" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, May 17, 2004 7:47 PM
Subject: Re: Numbers on the rebuilding of Afghanistan

A quick response to one point.


> >What freedom and liberty.
>
> [snip]
>
> > Have you looked at
> >the change in Al Sadir's poll numbers?
>
> I am inclined to let the irony of the above two quotes stand for
> themselves. but I came across the following message today from a
> Catholic friend of mine..

OK, if you feel the Palestinians present a good model of a free people,
then I'll accept that the polling shows that the people of Iraq are as free
as the Palestinians.

I have argued long and hard that things are better now in Iraq than they
were 2 years ago.  But, better than Hussein is a very low goal.

Dan M.

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Researchers hail dyslexia breakthrough

[William T Goodall]

http://education.guardian.co.uk/higher/research/story/ 
0,9865,1220980,00.html?=rss

"Researchers who have monitored a new treatment for dyslexia today  
hailed it "as close to a cure as there is".

Academics at Exeter University, who have been monitoring the technique,  
made up of a series of exercises, at Balsall Common primary school in  
Solihull, West Midlands, for two years, said the work of pupils with  
learning difficulties improved faster than that of their peers during  
the treatment and the year after.

"They were still behind the others kids, but they improved by more than  
the non-special needs kids in the schools," said Professor David  
Reynolds, who led the monitoring of the technique. "They hadn't caught  
up, but their learning was quicker. That's extraordinary."

He added: "We looked at the kids a year after they had treatment and  
the gains were maintained. It was remarkable. In most studies the  
improvements haven't lasted."

 The treatment focuses on the back part of the brain, the cerebellum,  
which is long understood to be responsible for balance and  
co-ordination. More recently scientists have come to believe it is also  
responsible for the way in which reading and writing becomes an  
automatic process for people.

The treatment helps to exercise the cerebellum through balancing  
techniques, which in turn strengthen the ability to learn. Pupils might  
have to learn how to balance on a wobbly board, or throw a bean bag  
from one hand to the other.

"It's as close to a cure as we've come so far, but there is still  
variation between kids," said Professor Reynolds.

"I started as a cynic because my own background is educational  
treatments for dyslexia-type problems. We developed lots of hoops for  
it [the treatment] to jump through and each time it jumped every one.  
It's good science.""

--
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/
"Invest in a company any idiot can run because sooner or later any  
idiot is going to run it."  -  Warren Buffet

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Re: The Savage Solution

[Dan Minette]

- Original Message - 
From: "Keith Henson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2004 8:11 AM
Subject: Re: The Savage Solution



>
> Who knows how many conditionally expressed psychological traits humans
> have?  Mothers bond with their infants depending on chemical switches
> (their brains are soaked with oxytocin during birth).  Capture-bonding or
> Stockholm Syndrome is switched on by being captured and fear.  Zimbardo's
> prison experiments at Stanford are best explained as being an expression
of
> the evolved counter part to Stockholm Syndrome.  I.e., we have a
> psychological mechanism to mistreat captive to induce fear leading to
> capture-bonding.  That trait is conditionally switched on by the mere
> presence of captives.

The problem I have with evolutionary psychology is that it is an a
posterori general explaination.  So, I thought I might deal with this by
asking some questions about an area that can be explained by arguements
similar to that you have given above: Battered women.  My wife has worked
years with battered women, and has written her master's thesis in that
area.  So, I am at least moderately familiar with this area, and have a
resource for getting more information.

So, let me ask some general questions:

Are there any factors that predict that a woman is more likely to enter a
relationship with someone who batters her?

Are there any factors that predict whether a woman will leave such a
relationship?

Is a battered woman more or less likely to be abusive to her children?

I would very much appreciate a discussion that starts with evolutionary
psychology and then shows how the predictions can be deduced from the basic
premises.

Dan M.


Dan M.

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Re: The Savage Solution

[Keith Henson]

At 02:05 AM 20/05/04 -0700, you wrote:
Keith said:
> Unfortunately, this turns out to be expected from evolutionary
> psychology considerations.
>
> Rather than repeat it here, put "xenophobic memes" in a search engine
> for the concepts.
Isn't evolutionary psychology about *genes* for behaviours common to all
humans
The genes and behaviors don't have to be common to *all* humans, just under 
selection pressure that makes the genes and the behavior they influence 
more common.  Walking and talking are not universal traits (though darn 
close).  They were certainly under selection since our very remote 
ancestors did neither.

(as compared to behavioural genetics, which is about differences
in behaviour linked to differences in genes) and not memes for
behaviour?
True, but there is no reason not to have genes predisposing to learning 
memes.  Being good at learning memes can promote the survival of your genes.

Is your view that memes for xenophobia thrive in the
environment of human brains because such brains have evolved to think
xenophobically?
Memes for xenophobia thrive in an environment of human brains 
*conditionally.*   Human brains effectively have a "gain setting" for 
circulating (and believing) xenophobic memes.  This "gain setting" differs 
from one person to another, but the population average gets turned up 
depending on environmental conditions.  "Looming privation" is the term I 
use to describe the main environmental influence on this setting.

This makes sense because the build up of xenophobic memes is part of the 
mechanism that led (after a delay) to hunter gatherer tribes attacking 
another tribe when they were facing hard times (i.e., starvation) as a 
consequence of population build up or a drop in the carrying capacity of 
their environment.

Attacking another tribe in good times is stupid.  Genes favoring stupid 
behavior don't last long.  Genes become more common that favor hunter 
gatherers spending their efforts hunting game, gathering berries and 
raising kids.

But when the alternative is the whole tribe starving to death or going on 
the warpath and trying to take the resources of the tribe next door, genes 
favoring *that* behavior become more common.

Who knows how many conditionally expressed psychological traits humans 
have?  Mothers bond with their infants depending on chemical switches 
(their brains are soaked with oxytocin during birth).  Capture-bonding or 
Stockholm Syndrome is switched on by being captured and fear.  Zimbardo's 
prison experiments at Stanford are best explained as being an expression of 
the evolved counter part to Stockholm Syndrome.  I.e., we have a 
psychological mechanism to mistreat captive to induce fear leading to 
capture-bonding.  That trait is conditionally switched on by the mere 
presence of captives.

Or are you using "evolutionary psychology" to mean "the
theory of memetics"?
No.  Memetics just isn't a big enough sandbox for this kind of thinking.
It seems to me that the way we approach these problems depends strongly
how much situations depend on differences in memes rather than
differences in genes.
Differences in memes and the feedback on human genes is where culture (and 
large human populations) came from.  Someone on another list pointed me to 
this excellent paper:  "The mimetic transition: a simulation study of the 
evolution of learning by imitation." Higgs PG. Proc R Soc Lond B Biol Sci. 
2000 Jul 7; 267(1450): 1355-61
http://pmbrowser.info/pmdisplay.cgi?issn=09628452&uids=10972132

But when it comes to wars, the details of the particular memes that sync up 
one tribe or nation to attack another are not important. Any xenophobic 
meme or set of them in a general class will do.  As can be seen in a very 
recent example, in leading up to a war people/leaders will seize on any 
reason and elaborated it to justify an attack.  When the Easter Islanders 
were facing ecological collapse they split into waring camps based on "long 
ears" vs "short ears."  (The whole population was closely related--founding 
population of perhaps 20 people).  They went at each other for generations 
till the peak population of 20,000 was reduced to perhaps 1000, and the 
ecosystem started to recover somewhat.  Then, with enough to eat, "war 
mode" switched off.

It is a dire and depressing business to realize that genes optimized in the 
stone age to cope with periodic privation of hunter gatherers are now 
pulling strings attached to nukes.

Keith Henson
PS.  It is almost as bad to realize that 1) there are not many people who 
can understand these arguments, 2) the arguments depend on understanding 
*evolution*, 3) the solutions take decades, 4) . . . . . 5) . . . ..

Rich
GCU Genuinely Interested
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Re: The Savage Solution

[Richard Baker]

Keith said:

> Unfortunately, this turns out to be expected from evolutionary
> psychology considerations.
> 
> Rather than repeat it here, put "xenophobic memes" in a search engine
> for the concepts.

Isn't evolutionary psychology about *genes* for behaviours common to all
humans (as compared to behavioural genetics, which is about differences
in behaviour linked to differences in genes) and not memes for
behaviour? Is your view that memes for xenophobia thrive in the
environment of human brains because such brains have evolved to think
xenophobically? Or are you using "evolutionary psychology" to mean "the
theory of memetics"?

It seems to me that the way we approach these problems depends strongly
how much situations depend on differences in memes rather than
differences in genes.

Rich
GCU Genuinely Interested
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Re: Good News From Iraq

[Gary Denton]

Let me add this for the real news out of Iraq.

FT:  Iraq's rebel cleric gains surge in popularity
  
An Iraqi poll to be released next week shows a surge in the popularity
of Moqtada al-Sadr, the radical young Shia cleric fighting coalition
forces, and suggests nearly nine out of 10 Iraqis see US troops as
occupiers and not liberators or peacekeepers.

The poll was conducted by the one-year-old Iraq Center for Research
and Strategic Studies, which is considered reliable enough for the
US-led Coalition Provisional Authority to have submitted questions to
be included in the study.

Although the results of any poll in Iraq's traumatised society should
be taken with caution, the survey highlights the difficulties facing
the US authorities in Baghdad as they confront Mr Sadr, who launched
an insurgency against the US-led occupation last month.

Conducted before the Abu Ghraib prisoners' scandal, it also suggests a
severe erosion of American credibility even before Iraqis were
confronted with images of torture at the hands of US soldiers.

Saadoun Duleimi, head of the centre, said more than half of a
representative sample - comprising 1,600 Shia, Sunni Arabs and Kurds
polled in all Iraq's main regions - wanted coalition troops to leave
Iraq. This compares with about 20 per cent in an October survey. Some
88 per cent of respondents said they now regarded coalition forces in
Iraq as occupiers.

"Iraqis always contrast American actions with American promises and
there's now a wide gap in credibility," said Mr Duleimi, who belongs
to one of the country's big Sunni tribes. "In this climate, fighting
has given Moqtada credibility because he's the only Iraqi man who
stood up against the occupation forces."

The US authorities in Baghdad face an uphill battle to persuade Iraqis
that the transfer of sovereignty on June 30 will mark the end of the
US occupation. The removal of US troops was cited in the poll as a
more urgent issue than the country's formal status.

http://tinyurl.com/2sjrn

The PR firm referred to in my previous post has close ties both to the
Blair government and the UK Conservative Party.  They had been known
for representing McDonald's in the UK, a tough job, and promoting GM
foods, another tough job.

How will they do in Iraq, an even tougher job?

Christian Science Monitor:

Abu Ghraib served to deepen cynicism among mainstream Iraqis, says
Fawaz Gerges, professor of Middle East and international affairs at
Sarah Lawrence College in Bronxville, N.Y. Professor Gerges doubts
whether the ads - culturally sensitive though they may be - can be
effective in the new climate.

"Not only are they unlikely to influence public opinion [for the
better], but they could have a counter effect because of the widening
gap between the rhetoric of the US-led occupiers and their
performance," says Gerges. "No ad campaign can repair the damage in
the near future No PR gimmicks will dent the crisis of trust."

http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0513/p11s02-woiq.html

Gary Denton
#1 on Google for liberal news
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Re: Good News From Iraq

[Gary Denton]

On Wed, 19 May 2004 07:12:55 -0400, John D. Giorgis
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> DEMOCRACY TAKES ROOT

An article from Feb 15, before the mass uprising began with the
closing down of a Baghdad newspaper. Looking further, this whole thing
was a compilation of good news articles, next two more from December.
Wonder if the international PR firm, mentioned in the only post with a
date within the past week, had anything to do with this compilation?

> HEALTHIER, WEALTHIER AND WISER
>From about the only pro-US bloggers now.  Two dentists who's incomes
have shot way up.

Pensions, salaries info from May, education back from last year when
the CPA was promoting that story.  Great that the Iraqi ex-pats are
coming back to Baghdad though. Health care was bad but was finally
beginning to improve until the latest surge in the uprising.

> SPIRITS REVIVE: "In a stunning upset victory, the Iraq national football
> team defeated Saudi Arabia tonight 3 to 1 to earn a trip to the 2004
> Olympic Summer games in Athens."> 

The main topic on the Iraqi news was how everyone was upset the
Americans made them play in an empty stadium because of security
concerns.

> Other areas of life previously suppressed are experiencing cultural revival
> - like traditional Kurdish music. "Before, Arab music was the most popular,
> but now even the latest albums aren't selling... Many more people are
> buying Kurdish music," says Niyaz Zangana, who runs the popular Zang record
> store in Arbil.

Kurdistan is a success story. Give them independence and they will love us.

I want Iraq to succeed, if we were really delivering Democracy under
competent leadership there wouldn't be this uprising.

Gary "anti-PR" Denton
#1 on Google for liberal news
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