Unto the Third and Fourth Generation
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/story.jsp?story=551894 Children of criminals to be 'targeted' and 'tracked' By Marie Woolf ,Chief Political Correspondent 16 August 2004 Children of criminals are to be targeted and tracked from an early age by the Government to prevent them following their parents into a life of crime, as part of a campaign to tackle the next generation of offenders. In an offensive on youth crime, a programme to prevent 125,000 children whose fathers are in prison from joining them in jail, is being planned by the Home Office. In an interview with The Independent, Hazel Blears, the Policing minister, says she is optimistic that tracking and targeting can help prevent children becoming criminals like their parents. Studies showed that children with criminal fathers and under-achievers who grow up in local authority care have a significant chance of turning to crime themselves. About 125,000 kids have got a dad in prison. That's a huge risk factor. Something like 65 per cent of those kids will end up in prison themselves, she said. We need to track the children who are most at risk. We can predict the risk factors that will lead a child into offending behaviour. However, she is aware the plan, based on research showing children of criminals are far more likely to end up in jail than their peers, may lead to accusations they are being unfairly singled out. I don't think it is stigmatising those children by targeting them, she said. You can intervene at an early age and say 'your life can be different and we will help you and your parents make your life different.' Let's put the support in as early as we can. The Policing minister has been in talks with Margaret Hodge, the minister for Children, about an early intervention scheme to prevent children of burglars, muggers, and gangsters from breaking the law. She wants to use methods used in Labour's Sure Start programme for under-fives in deprived areas to give extra support to children from criminal backgrounds. Children would be tracked by the authorities from the time they are in nappies to their teenage years with extra support and help to nip disruptive behaviour in the bud. One study showed that the most violent offenders began to display bad behaviour as young as six. Another study which tracked children into adult life found under-controlled children who exhibited disruptive behaviour at the age of three were four times more likely to be convicted of violent offences. If you can tackle the 125,000 kids with dads in jail by providing extra support and help there's a chance, Ms Blears said. Teenagers with criminal fathers would be monitored and offered extra support at school and by social services as well as being introduced to sport, drama and other after-school activities. You can get the parents into parenting classes. We can get some of the older kids involved in arts, sports drama. Give them something to succeed at. If you go to school every day and everybody tells you you are rubbish you are never going to succeed, she said. Ms Blears also wants to see a crackdown on violence and bullying in schools. Studies show classroom bullies are more likely to be involved in muggings, car theft and attacks outside school. I don't think you can afford to let it go. It's a bit like zero tolerance, she said. The judicial system should help offenders, including drug addicts who rob to fuel their habit, to change their ways. But if they refuse to change, the police should provide a hostile environment for them. We will help you change your life but if you want to go back to robbing we will be on your doorstep, she said. Meanwhile, children up to the age of five are to be kept in prison with their mothers at Cornton Vale, near Stirling, it emerged yesterday. - The Christian church, in its attitude toward science, shows the mind of a more or less enlightened man of the Thirteenth Century. It no longer believes that the earth is flat, but it is still convinced that prayer can cure after medicine fails. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: [Listref] Science, Politics Collide in Election Year
On 16 Aug 2004, at 2:21 am, Robert G. Seeberger wrote: http://www.space.com/news/science_politics_040814.html The conflict usually centers on scientific advice involving politically contentious subjects such as reproductive health, drug policy and the environment. Climate scientists, for example, complain they have been frustrated in their attempts to include full and accurate information about global warming in official government reports -- a charge the administration denies. The administration also finds itself at odds with many medical researchers over use of embryonic stem cells. President Bush, concerned that harvesting the cells requires the destruction of human embryos, decided in 2001 to restrict federally funded research to a few dozen existing cell lines. But medical researchers, believing stem cells offer a key to curing many debilitating diseases, say the decision severely hampers their work. Is there no limit to the twisted sick evildoing of these sick twisted evildoing religious freaks? [1] [1] Rhetorical question. -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ Those who study history are doomed to repeat it. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
The Mercies of The Vatican
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/wire/ny-bc-nj--communioncontrove0812au g12,0,6656242.story?coll=ny-ap-regional-wire 8-year-old's first Holy Communion invalidated by Church By JOHN CURRAN Associated Press Writer August 12, 2004, 2:25 PM EDT BRIELLE, N.J. -- An 8-year-old girl who suffers from a rare digestive disorder and cannot consume wheat has had her first Holy Communion declared invalid because the wafer contained none, violating Catholic doctrine. ... It isn't the first such communion controversy. In 2001, the family of a 5-year-old Natick, Mass., girl with the disease left the Catholic church after being denied permission to use a rice wafer. -- Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise, every expanded project. - James Madison ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Paper-Trails
http://www.wired.com/news/evote/0,2645,64569,00.htmlI t was simultaneously an uh-oh moment and an ah-ha moment. When Sequoia Voting Systems demonstrated its new paper-trail electronic voting system for state Senate staffers in California last week, the company representative got a surprise when the paper trail failed to record votes that testers cast on the machine. -- Where annual elections end, there slavery begins -- John Adams ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: The Mercies of The Vatican
On Mon, 16 Aug 2004 09:17:42 -0500, The Fool [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.newsday.com/news/local/wire/ny-bc-nj--communioncontrove0812au g12,0,6656242.story?coll=ny-ap-regional-wire 8-year-old's first Holy Communion invalidated by Church By JOHN CURRAN Associated Press Writer August 12, 2004, 2:25 PM EDT BRIELLE, N.J. -- An 8-year-old girl who suffers from a rare digestive disorder and cannot consume wheat has had her first Holy Communion declared invalid because the wafer contained none, violating Catholic doctrine. It isn't the first such communion controversy. In 2001, the family of a 5-year-old Natick, Mass., girl with the disease left the Catholic church after being denied permission to use a rice wafer. So much for Mark 10:14 ( http://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/www/Bible/Mark.html#10:14 ) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Viking Kittens
http://www.dennyweb.com/viking_kittens.htm I wouldn't post this without a comment, except that I can't think of what to say. Nick ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: [Listref] Science, Politics Collide in Election Year
On Aug 16, 2004, at 4:39 AM, William T Goodall wrote: Is there no limit to the twisted sick evildoing of these sick twisted evildoing religious freaks? [1] [1] Rhetorical question. Is there no limit to the one-note playing of these sad, tiresome anti-religious freaks? ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Books to burn...?
From the MIT Technology review of 8/10/04 (I just get the blurbs, not the full articles): Justice To Libraries: Please Destroy Some Books For Us The Department of Justice has asked the Government Printing Office to instruct federal depository libraries around the country to destroy five publications that the Department of Justice has deemed not appropriate for external use. Blogger Simson Garfinkel notes that two of these books are simply the texts of federal statutes. Justice Department: Whoops, We Changed Our Mind! Garfinkel follows up: Following negative fallout, the Department of Justice has decided to rescind its order asking the Depository Libraries to destroy books. I have a hard time conceiving of _libraries_ as a place to wage war, despite the examples of Gailet and Gillian... Debbi who wonders if checking out a book on composting manure would get her flagged under the hunt-for-terrorism flag... __ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: [Listref] Science, Politics Collide in Election Year
On 16 Aug 2004, at 7:33 pm, Dave Land wrote: On Aug 16, 2004, at 4:39 AM, William T Goodall wrote: Is there no limit to the twisted sick evildoing of these sick twisted evildoing religious freaks? [1] [1] Rhetorical question. Is there no limit to the one-note playing of these sad, tiresome anti-religious freaks? Is there no limit to the twisted sick evildoing of these sick twisted evildoing religious freaks? [1] [1] Rhetorical question. -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ 'The true sausage buff will sooner or later want his own meat grinder.' -- Jack Schmidling ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: [L3] RE: Indivisible (was: Karmic slappage)
Travis Edmunds [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Deborah Harrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] laughing You know what this thread needs? An analogy or two... Yet below you ask for slappage ;) massive snippage throughout As you can see, I totally disagree with you. Of course you are correct in saying that if one professes beliefs that stem from ignorance and which are known generally to be false, then that person is misinformed and/or deluded. But it's still the very definition of hypocrisy. Perhaps we may never agree on this. But it's where I stand nonetheless. I agree that we do not and may not ever agree about hypocrisy in organized religion, but our positions thereon have been spelled out in detail. ;) I do not assign malign intent to all or even most upper echelon members in simplifying 'what a difference an iota makes,' Data (referring to a very short amount of time) - For an android sir, that is an eternity. Same premise Debbi. And I'd say that an 'iota' can potentially make a world of difference. IIRC, the expression comes from two Greek words that are literally different by one iota: one meant of the same [substance], the other of a similar [substance]. Deciding between the two lead to one of the early schisms in Christianity. raises eyebrows questioningly at Dan Take transubstantiation as an example No doubt that's true. But Iike you said, we disagree. shrugs shoulders So where do we go from here? Since we seem to be circling, it's probably time to get off the merry-go-round! Yet at the end of the day I'm gonna argue vehemently that they're just not the same. A human is a human. A human is not a turtle...(feel free to slap me any timefriendly laugh) Messiness is an unavoidable facet of our complex culture; there is always room for improvement, and a need for those who call our attention to such problems. Yes. Absolutely. And seeing as how religion is a human construct, one should downright expect messiness. That's fine with me. I just think that if this is true, then perhaps 'religion' should drop the 'divinity' stuff altogether. Wouldn't you say? There is after all a conflict of interest of sorts, is there not? groans as another analogy comes to mind Heck, the physicists can't figure out if things will end with a big bang, a tired whimper, or endless expansion...why should their thought-experiments try to find out what will happen in 5 or 10 or 50 billion years? It matters not an iota to their lifespan! Yet they persist in looking for the beginning and the end of all... Because asking questions and figuring out answers is one of the things that we humans do. We just don't have the wherewithal to reach firm conclusions for a lot of queries. It may seem like I'm taking a very 'black white' approach to this. Personally, if it exists, I'd like you to enlighten me as to it's presence. Because I just don't see it. What I do see however, is a central theme that I spout, that seems to conflict in part with yours. What do you think? Bingo! All I'm saying, is what you summed up nicely above - 'to choose a particular philosophical approach to life does negate, at least temporarily, some other approaches' We agree about something, at last. :) Within the confines of religion they tend to view the world through their god as opposed to *with* their god. They cannot seem to escape the nutshell of their particular religion, and to think critically as it were. However, I would argue that if one isn't fanatical about his or her religion, then they aren't being 'true' to their religion. Yet all of my friends who profess an organized religion as 'theirs' deny that they are - or 'ought to be' - fanatical about it. They have found what makes sense to them, and seems best to them, but are wise enought to understand that one size does not fit all. *You* want them to be fanatics, but what you desire is irrelevent to their faiths and ways of following what they believe. I personally disagree with what I just said of course. But seeing as how each and every religion is 'the way' so to speak, then not strictly adhering to all of it's principles does absolutely nothing for the religion itself. Adapt or die. That is what all human social constructs must do. Permanent rigidity in thought will cause 'death' of the organization - look at frex the Shakers. Russell Crowe fan? He's a truly good actor, but in interviews comes off as a real jerk of a person. I just can't seem to get myself to agree with your analogies. That's because you aren't looking at them from my perspective! evil smile But allow me an attempt at clarification. I don't demand perfection from structured religion. As you've said and as I fully understand - it's a human construct. Instead I *expect* perfection. For although it's a human construct, it's divinely inspired. You see what I'm getting
Re: [Listref] Science, Politics Collide in Election Year
Robert G. Seeberger wrote: http://www.space.com/news/science_politics_040814.html With more than 4,000 scientists, including 48 Nobel Prize winners, having signed a statement opposing the Bush administration's use of scientific advice, this election year is seeing a new development in the uneasy relationship between science and politics. snip In the larger dispute, scientists charge that the Bush administration has violated its side of the bargain in two ways: By manipulating scientific information to suit political purposes and by applying a political litmus test to membership on scientific advisory committees. The conflict usually centers on scientific advice involving politically contentious subjects such as reproductive health, drug policy and the environment. snip If carefully done, well-designed research doesn't back you up, you change your views, if you're honest. Nearly all clinicians who treated peri- and post-menopausal women thought that estrogen supplementation was preponderantly beneficial. When the studies finally came out -- we were wrong. Guidelines and prescribing practices changed. Abstinence-only programs. Condoms and AIDS prevention. Just two examples from the field of medicine demonstrating this administration's ostrich responses. Debbi Galileo Knew Maru __ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Viking Kittens
- Original Message - From: Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 16, 2004 1:12 PM Subject: Viking Kittens http://www.dennyweb.com/viking_kittens.htm I wouldn't post this without a comment, except that I can't think of what to say. That one sure keeps making the rounds. I posted that one to the list 2 years ago and I may not have been the first. xponent There Are More Just Like It Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: [Listref] Science, Politics Collide in Election Year
On Mon, 16 Aug 2004 21:19:57 +0100, William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 16 Aug 2004, at 7:33 pm, Dave Land wrote: On Aug 16, 2004, at 4:39 AM, William T Goodall wrote: Is there no limit to the twisted sick evildoing of these sick twisted evildoing religious freaks? [1] [1] Rhetorical question. Is there no limit to the one-note playing of these sad, tiresome anti-religious freaks? Is there no limit to the twisted sick evildoing of these sick twisted evildoing religious freaks? [1] [1] Rhetorical question. Is there no limit to the repetition in this sub-thread? [2] [2] Rhetorical answer Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: [L3] RE: Indivisible (was: Karmic slappage)
On Mon, 16 Aug 2004 13:48:41 -0700 (PDT), Deborah Harrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Adapt or die. That is what all human social constructs must do. Permanent rigidity in thought will cause 'death' of the organization - look at frex the Shakers. Your organization is more likely to survive if it's a community that allows procreation within the community than if it's a community that doesn't allow procreation. :) But they were a useful organization to the greater community, being a good place for raising orphans and taking in widows who didn't want to remarry and didn't have the resources to survive on their own. Adapt or die -- as society changed and there wasn't as great a need for the services they provided because other constructs had come along to do those jobs, the communities died out one by one. (I think I remember there being 4 surviving Shakers at some point, and within 5 years it was down to 1) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Soldering in Space
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2004/16aug_solder.htm?list1119125 Orbital rosin. Who knew? xponent More Surprises To Come Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Soldering in Space
In a message dated 8/16/2004 4:10:25 PM US Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Orbital rosin. Who knew? xponent What? You've never heard of the Rosin Cavalier? Vilyehm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: [L3] RE: Indivisible (was: Karmic slappage)
From: Deborah Harrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [L3] RE: Indivisible (was: Karmic slappage) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 13:48:41 -0700 (PDT) Travis Edmunds [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Deborah Harrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] Within the confines of religion they tend to view the world through their god as opposed to *with* their god. They cannot seem to escape the nutshell of their particular religion, and to think critically as it were. However, I would argue that if one isn't fanatical about his or her religion, then they aren't being 'true' to their religion. Yet all of my friends who profess an organized religion as 'theirs' deny that they are - or 'ought to be' - fanatical about it. They have found what makes sense to them, and seems best to them, but are wise enought to understand that one size does not fit all. A very sensible approach. One that I personally agree with, and one that perhaps everyone should endeavor to emulate. *You* want them to be fanatics In a very real sense, religion dictates that they should be. What I think is frustrating to you (and many of the rest of us!) is at the heart of belief in a Divinity: if You're there, *gimme a clear sentence, dang it!* A completely different topic of discussion (IMO), and one that I was not personally attempting to get into. But yes, very frustrating indeed. So why would a god lay out principles to adhere to in the first place? To keep the world from descending back into Chaos. To test for obedience. To keep people living harmoniously together. smiling at the 'indulgent one' 'Twas merely a rhetorical question. Used to point out contradictions within contradictions, as I see them. I ask, 'who says these rules come from the Divine, and what proof do they offer?' If one has such questions brewing in their mind, then a mug full of organized religion would not be nearly as palatable as a cup of personal belief. Hence, if one prefers the homemade brew, by all means drink it. But it cannot be equated with the store-bought product as it's just not the same. Going in circles again... As for an afterlife, if there is one, I have no control over what it entails, and furthermore it is irrelevant to what occurs here and now. I can only influence what is around me _now_. In a roundabout way, that perfectly describes my organized religion/hypocrisy standpoint. Or at least the fundamentals of where I come from, in standing behind my own views. I don't mean to come off child-like in they way I'm thinking here. It's just that I can't get my head around the fundamental premise of my little 'conflict of interest'. Frankly I never could, and perhaps never will. I'm going to come off as an ageist here -again- because I went through a long period in which I wanted specific directions, clearly and unequivocally stated. We're not getting generic here are we? As a side note, I'd like to let you know though that I appreciate the experience that your words must entail. Not meaning of course that I'm gonna necessarily agree with you...smile What I have had to adapt to is the silence of uncertainty, despite the recurrent sense of a Presence. The silence of uncertainty is a silence that screams in my ears daily. As for the sense of a 'presence'...I'm just not sure. I have however been in religious settings as part of the congregation, where I felt something. But I would not ascribe 'a presence/THE Presence' to it. Merely a sense of communion with those around me, mingled with a break from everyday life, brought forth a 'something'. But such can be found at any 'gathering' of sorts. Divinity? Herd mentality? Perhaps even finding God and not knowing it! For the quest for God may be inside ourselves. And what better way to find 'it', than gathering? And for a common purpose no less. Be it belief in a specific faith. A shared affinity for a particular rock band. A family reunion even! Ah! But do you hear it? The silence of uncertainty beckons... It is neither easy nor particularly reassuring, but it is...exasperatingly hopeful. In my personal writing career, I have this project that I dump random ideas into. One such idea took the form of a quote from yours truly: Optimism is, in most cases, a complete disregard for the truth. I consider myself a realist. At least as much as I can be. And while I think that the above quote holds true more often than not, I am inclined to be optimistic, to be hopeful, for the sake of my own sanity. Yet I constantly ask myself when being the least bit hopeful about something, if I'm not perhaps going overboard. Thay say aim high. That way you won't hit as low. I say aim low. That way you haven't got so far to fall. We are of course individuals. Each and every one of us finds some element of happiness, contentedness in different things. And if it works, well I guess it works now doesn't it? (You
Re: The Mercies of The Vatican
At 12:01 PM 8/16/2004 -0500, Julia Randolph wrote: On Mon, 16 Aug 2004 09:17:42 -0500, The Fool [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.newsday.com/news/local/wire/ny-bc-nj--communioncontrove0812au g12,0,6656242.story?coll=ny-ap-regional-wire 8-year-old's first Holy Communion invalidated by Church By JOHN CURRAN Associated Press Writer August 12, 2004, 2:25 PM EDT BRIELLE, N.J. -- An 8-year-old girl who suffers from a rare digestive disorder and cannot consume wheat has had her first Holy Communion declared invalid because the wafer contained none, violating Catholic doctrine. It isn't the first such communion controversy. In 2001, the family of a 5-year-old Natick, Mass., girl with the disease left the Catholic church after being denied permission to use a rice wafer. So much for Mark 10:14 ( http://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/www/Bible/Mark.html#10:14 ) Julia, you should know better than to believe such Foolish prattlings. What The Fool conveniently left out is that communion can be distributed as either unleavened bread or as wine, and that *each* is considered to be fully the Body *and* Blood of Jesus Christ by the Catholic Church. JDG - Perhaps The Fool should stick to posting about atheism, Maru, and leave the Catholicism posts to the Catholics. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
