Re: Do the anti-anti-war critics want a country withoutpeaceadocates?
On Mon, Mar 10, 2003 at 02:53:33PM -0600, Marvin Long, Jr. wrote: Shit! That bastard on S. Congress sold me some bad PC... Uh, never mind. See, you should be getting your drugs from QVC... -- Paul ... you haven't seen untidiness until you've seen a room where the gravity has failed twice in different directions. -- Michael Marshall Smith, Only Forward ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Do the anti-anti-war critics want a country withoutpeaceadocates?
On Sun, Mar 09, 2003 at 07:46:17PM -0800, Nick Arnett wrote: Are those experiences primarily via the media, or first-hand? Both, but perhaps more first-hand than media. -- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Do the anti-anti-war critics want a country withoutpeaceadocates?
Rob wrote: Everyone should be proud. There is hope for eventual peace if Brin-L looks better than the cable channel political talk shows. Not to burst your balloon, but rabid pcp-crazed incontinent baboons fighting over a days-dead gopher carcass look better than most cable TV discussions, especially the ones on Fox News. But, yes - the discussion here ahs been considerably calmer. Adam C. Lipscomb [EMAIL PROTECTED] Silence. I am watching television. - Spider Jerusalem ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Do the anti-anti-war critics want a country withoutpeaceadocates?
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Adam C. Lipscomb ... Not to burst your balloon, but rabid pcp-crazed incontinent baboons fighting over a days-dead gopher carcass look better than most cable TV discussions, especially the ones on Fox News. Honest to goodness, I'm laughing out loud. Doesn't happen all that often when reading here! Nick ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Do the anti-anti-war critics want a country withoutpeaceadocates?
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Gautam Mukunda ... I feel some level of satisfaction in that this is _exactly_ what I said in one of my last posts - I may not have read it; if I did and failed to acknowledge it, I apologize. I'm not keeping up with the list as well as usual. (I'm not sure if I've mentioned here that my new company has won its first contract, so work is getting busier... and I spent far too much of my weekend under my desk, solving a CPU temperature problem on my primary computer. I now know far more than I really wanted to about Vcore voltages, air flow, etc.) anti-war people who are themselves criticized instantly cry censorship. What nonsense. I agree that it is nonsense. Especially given that most of those we hear from are those who are getting media exposure! If you don't think that many of the most prominent anti-war critics are not, in fact, anti-American, you haven't been paying attention. Could you give your definition of anti-American? I think that would go a long way toward helping me understand why you say this. Read some Noam Chomsky and tell me that one again. As a student of linguistics, I've read a lot of Chomky's writings on that subject. (And a lot, for Chomsky, can mean a few dozen pages, it sometimes seems; dense stuff.) His apologies for anarchy I find fascinating because they are a rare thing -- an extremist position that has a ton of intellectual foundation. I appreciate Chomsky similar to the way I appreciate Erik's fairly extreme position in this forum -- their voices are a realiable pull away from the usual directions. And if it isn't already obvious, I value being pulled in many directions. I think it's a good way to ensure that I see all the choices available, a prerequisite to deciding where I stand. It isn't trying to stifle dissent (something that isn't happening, and that no reasonable person could think is happening, or why haven't the brownshirts taken over the New York Times yet?) to call a spade a spade, or to point out the real motivations and actions of some of the people on one side of this debate. We can only speculate on the real motivations of others, can't we? It was an eye-opener for me to recognize and admit that I am never completely certain of my own motivations, which has made me quicker to apologize. No reasonable person could believe that there are no attempts to stifle dissent? I'm more than a little surprised that you'd say that. I don't see censorship, per se, but the first thing that comes to mind is the management of protestors at presidential appearances, to ensure that they don't appear on camera. I'll quickly add that this is not a Republican phenomenon; I saw the same thing happening at a Gore rally I attended during the last election. Perhaps I should emphasize that I'm far more concerned about polarization of issues than the stifling of dissent. On the other hand, polarization inevitably stifles dissent because it eliminates all points of view that don't fit into pro and con. Just as in Vietnam, when Jane Fonda revealed her true colors when she went to Hanoi, some members of the far left in this country are showing those with eyes to see what really motivates them. And what, exactly, is it that motivates them, and what is your definition of the far left? Honestly, I don't know what you are alluding to. those of us who spend some time and effort point out what's really going on are closet fascists, but no one outside that echo chamber is even going to take you seriously, because it's so obviously not the case. Eh? If that's not a straw man, I've never seen one. Nick ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Do the anti-anti-war critics want a country withoutpeaceadocates?
On Mon, 10 Mar 2003, Adam C. Lipscomb wrote: Not to burst your balloon, but rabid pcp-crazed incontinent baboons fighting over a days-dead gopher carcass look better than most cable TV discussions, especially the ones on Fox News. Shit! That bastard on S. Congress sold me some bad PC... Uh, never mind. Marvin Long ROTFLMAO Maru :-) Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Do the anti-anti-war critics want a country withoutpeaceadocates?
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Erik Reuter ... I'm all for peace activists, as long as they have given a lot of thought to their position, the consequences, other alternatives, and the overall costs and state their position clearly. This is extraordinarily rare, in my experience, however. Are those experiences primarily via the media, or first-hand? Maybe if they were more...not afraid but...nervous, about speaking up, they would give a more coherent and well-thought out message when they finally do speak up? Most of them look foolish to me, and not because they advocate peace, but rather because of how poorly they argue for it. I almost have to agree, because that's about all we see and read about in the media. Does good thinking on either side of this issue (or pretty much any issue) get any mainstream press? One of the ways that journalistic objectivity did a lot of harm was that it got journalists, especially in broadcasting, to find people who would take the other side of any issue, in the name of presenting balanced news -- as the FCC formerly required them to do. Yet it was often ridiculous, as the media gave air time to people who disagreed with the overwhelming majority. (And here to present a counterpoint to tomorrow's predict time of sunrise...) The idea that some peoples' *points of view* are more interesting than others gave way to the idea that two groups' *positions* on issues must be reported. Respect should be earned, don't you think? Yep. And how does one earn it in the mass media these days...? I get more of what I'm looking for, in terms of interesting, provocative points of view on major issues, right here on Brin-L, than anywhere else I can think of. And it's certainly not when things degenerate into flame wars; it's when we manage to earn and give respect with the people with whom we disagree. Nick ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Do the anti-anti-war critics want a country withoutpeaceadocates?
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Robert Seeberger ... Isn't going to war such an sigificant action that it deserves criticism as much as any other? I don't think criticism is correct exactly. I would think critical discussion is more appropriate. Yes, that's better. I support what you are promoting, but I think the current situation is a bit different than you describe. People making sound logical arguments or even making sensible emotional appeals seem to be in short supply for the anti-war camp, or at least they lack visibility. I suspect it's a bit of both. I wrote about the media in my reply to Erik... but where do people learn critical discussion these days? I fear that many people simply don't; their only example of how to deal with disagreement is the way it is portrayed in the mass media. So they don't even know there is a choice (I don't know who discovered water, but it wasn't a fish, as Marshall McLuhan or John Culkin said). I think a lot of the problem lies with those peaceniks who are not prepared to *ever* lose an anti-war battle/debate. There's a lot of that on both (all?) sides. But I absolutely agree -- for so many, it's not about making the best decision as a nation, it's become about who wins and loses. Much of the discussion on that side has devolved to extreme anti-American/anti-Bush commentary and not much discussion of the actual issues (at least as far as visible proponents go). The real issues that underlie a lot of anti-right sentiment are hard to explain in ways that the media will bite. Passionate oversimplifications, presented as power struggles, win every time. [Cue :CSNY Ohio] Four dead in Ohio... Agreed Doc! But we must recognise that this divide has existed since the 60s and while not always apparent, has been with us most of our lives. I dislike the the angry tone on both sides of the debate, but it has very little to do with average folks like us. Its folks like us who determine what the world *is*. I think we've lived in an unusual time, historically speaking. I hope that our descendants look back and think, man, that must have been weird, to live in a world that was so polarized all the time. Through the ages, that's hardly ever happened. Nick ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Do the anti-anti-war critics want a country withoutpeaceadocates?
- Original Message - From: Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2003 9:56 PM Subject: RE: Do the anti-anti-war critics want a country withoutpeaceadocates? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Robert Seeberger ... Agreed Doc! But we must recognise that this divide has existed since the 60s and while not always apparent, has been with us most of our lives. I dislike the the angry tone on both sides of the debate, but it has very little to do with average folks like us. Its folks like us who determine what the world *is*. I think we've lived in an unusual time, historically speaking. I hope that our descendants look back and think, man, that must have been weird, to live in a world that was so polarized all the time. Through the ages, that's hardly ever happened. I'd like to point at the list for a second. While the polarization that exists elsewhere exists here also, Brin-L has not succumbed lately to the overt bashing one can plainly see elsewhere. There is a *wide* diversity of opinion here, and while one can see that some of us have emotional investments in their positions, everyone has been pretty consistent about containing the discussion to the issues and maintaining the civility of the discussion. ( I know a couple of you want to disagree, but please think about this a bit before you do so, if you are so inclined.) This war is a HOT topic. And the usual suspects who we have seen vent at each other onlist (I have to include myself in that), have not allowed the discussion to become a fight. Everyone should be proud. There is hope for eventual peace if Brin-L looks better than the cable channel political talk shows. xponent Together Maru rob I awoke this morning Love laid me down by the river Drifting I turned on up stream Bound for my forgiver In the giving of my eyes to see your face Sound did silence me Leaving no trace I beg to leave, to hear your wonderous stories ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
