Re: Freedom Vanilla Ice Cream (was RE: Commentary on French-bashing)
On Fri, 14 Mar 2003 14:44:02 -0800, Miller, Jeffrey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
-Original Message-
From: S.V. van Baardwijk-Holten [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent:
Friday, March 14, 2003 02:18 PM
To: Killer Bs Discussion
Subject: Re: Freedom Vanilla Ice Cream (was RE: Commentary on French-
bashing)
GCU What are Ham waffles?
http://gourmet.org/images/waffle.jpg
..for what is often refered to as a "Belgian" Waffle. A Ham Waffle will
have bits of ham (and cheese) mixed into the batter before hand (I've
also seen them put on top, but thats just Wrong..)
Not to be difficult or anything but the Belgian waffles I know only have
crunchy pieces of sugar in them Haven't seen any of them with ham.
This is what I'd consider a Belgian waffle: ('Luikse wafel' to be more
accurate)
http://www.lotusbakeries.com/LW.htm
And for a mouth watering picture of the chocolate coated version:
http://www.lotusbakeries.com/LWChoc.htm
(I know I'm cruel) ;o)
But next go I have on making anything waffely I'll try making the hart
shaped waffles with ham in 'm. Might be a while though since _Jeroen's_ son
is currently trying to wreck the living room. So I urgently need to go
outside with him. For a change it is very nice sunny weather and almost
warm, although I very much realise that many of the listees might consider
11 deg C very chilly. I just hope that I'll be able to get our little
terror ( ;o) ) tired enough for a voluntary nap later on.
Sonja
GCU: Waffles pah! Anyone tried one of Magnum's seven sins icecream yet?
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Re: Commentary on French-bashing
- Original Message - From: "J. van Baardwijk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, March 14, 2003 4:50 PM Subject: Re: Commentary on French-bashing > At 14:32 14-03-03 -0600, Dan Minette wrote: > > >[The French] actively support a brutal dictator. > > I think it's quite odd that the US suddenly seems it fit to criticise an > other country for supporting Saddam Hussein, when that very same US has > done the exact same thing... OK, lets look at the support. After Iran kidnapped American Embassy personnel and held them hostage, they proclaimed that they would lead the rest of Islam into a theocracy like theirs. At that time, the US had a slight tilt towards Iraq in the Iran-Iraq war. The logic was that Iraq posed less of a danger than Iran. The tilt was rather small, and involved sale of a very small amount of military equipment and, perhaps, a bit of information. France, on the other hand, activly supported Iraq's program to become a nuclear power. Then, when Iraq and the US alliance were at odds, France supported Iraq in its fight. The logical conclusion is that France favors Iraq's dictatorship over the US. The quesition is why? Another reasonable question, since you make a number of the points that France does, is do you? > And it's not like American companies haven't done business with Iraq since > the second Gulf War. Halliburton, anyone? Its true that a number American companies got around the US ban on doing business with Iraq by having their French subsidiaries conduct that business. France fought Clinton's efforts to stop this. Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Re: Commentary on French-bashing
At 21:44 14-03-03 -0500, John Giorgis wrote: If France can prevent the war from happening, than it *has* effectively protected American soldiers. After all, when there is no war, the risk to a soldier's life is significantly less than when that soldier goes into combat. Tell that to the families of all those soldiers who died at the Pentagon. The soldiers that France (and I) are referring to are the US troops in the Middle East, not the soldiers at the Pentagon. BTW, according to the Bush regime, the strike against the Pentagon *was* an act of war... Unfortuantely, your policy calls for the US to absorb the attack from a future Iraq's nuclear arsenal, or its stores of anthrax and nerve gas before attacking I never said that. How could I even have said that? I don't even know for sure that Iraq *has* NBC weapons and the capability to deliver them to the US. The US keeps claiming that Iraq has NBC weapons, but so far has consistently failed to prove it. As for the delivery, others have already posted about the problems inherent in delivering NBC weapons from Iraq to the US. Jeroen "Make love, not war" van Baardwijk _ Wonderful-World-of-Brin-L Website: http://www.Brin-L.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Re: Commentary on French-bashing
---Original Message--- From: "J. van Baardwijk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> If France can prevent the war from happening, than it *has* effectively protected American soldiers. After all, when there is no war, the risk to a soldier's life is significantly less than when that soldier goes into combat. Tell that to the families of all those soldiers who died at the Pentagon. Do the math of lives lost at the Pentagon, the Khobar Towers, and Dharan and compare to US combat losses. Unfortuantely, your policy calls for the US to absorb the attack from a future Iraq's nuclear arsenal, or its stores of anthrax and nerve gas before attacking Kind of ironic that your own beliefs are destined to prove the above post wrong. JDG ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Freedom Vanilla Ice Cream (was RE: Commentary on French-bashing)
> -Original Message-
> From: J. van Baardwijk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Friday, March 14, 2003 03:14 PM
> To: Killer Bs Discussion
> Subject: RE: Freedom Vanilla Ice Cream (was RE: Commentary on
> French-bashing)
>
>
> At 14:44 14-03-03 -0800, Jeffrey Miller wrote:
>
> >Trivia - the potato chip was actually invented in France by
> a cook who
> >had
> >an American (or was it british..) customer who kept sending
> back his fried
> >potato dish, demanding thinner and thinner slices of potato..
>
> Ah! So *that* is why the French and the Americans don't seem to get
> along!
>
> Should have known better than to anger a French chef... :-)
I worked for an Australian chef in culinary school[0] who I would never, ever, ever
want to cross.
-j-
[0] before I decided that the BS attitude of most chefs ("you will chop vegetables
until I deem you worthy to chop fruit, which you will do until I decide you may slice
bread, which you will do until I decide you are worthy of boiling water..") killed any
ambition I had in the field
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RE: Freedom Vanilla Ice Cream (was RE: Commentary on French-bashing)
> -Original Message- > From: Bryon Daly [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Friday, March 14, 2003 03:00 PM > To: Killer Bs Discussion > Subject: Re: Freedom Vanilla Ice Cream (was RE: Commentary on > French-bashing) > > > "Miller, Jeffrey" wrote: > > > Trivia - the potato chip was actually invented in France by > a cook who > > had an American (or was it british..) customer who kept > sending back > > his fried potato dish, demanding thinner and thinner slices of > > potato.. > > I heard the same thing, but set elsewhere, so I googled a bit > and found this fairly detailed text on potato chips: > http://www.geography.ccsu.edu/harmonj/atlas/po> tchips.htm > > > which suggests Saratoga Springs, NY is the point > of origin. Ah! Then I stand corrected on the location of origin (but not the origin itself ;D) "Why Did Anybody Do This? - Here, as with many points of the story, there is near unanimity. A patron, see below, returned his fried potatoes to the kitchen because they were not crunchy enough (Snack Food Association 1987; Panati 1987) One source contends that this behavior happened occasionally to Crum and it enraged him. "The few who did complain and returned their orders to the kitchen, were rewarded with the most indigestible substances the black chef could concoct. His somewhat irascible nature made him commit mayhem on many a returned meal. It pleased him to watch their reaction, which ranged from disbelief to a hurried departure." (Gibbs 1975). So, the fried potatoes come back to the kitchen. What Happened in the Kitchen ? - All the tellings refer to slicing potatoes into much thinner slices. Gibbs (1975) says he wrapped them in a napkin and dropped them into a tub of ice water, waited half an hour and dumped the slices into hot grease. None of the other versions I read had anything like this detail and there were no sources for that section so it may have been conjecture. A second part of the preparation revolved around the salt. Some versions just say he salted them but others refer to an aggressive salting, putting so much salt on that no one would be able to eat them. If we are to believe the stories about his character, it would seem that the latter motive was dominant." ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Freedom Vanilla Ice Cream (was RE: Commentary on French-bashing)
At 23:17 14-03-03 +0100, Sonja van Baardwijk wrote: (any one wanne translate 'zuurdesem brood'?) According to Euroglot: sourdough bread. (My son disagrees, but I think that eventually he'll grow out of his to date much beloved liquid porridge breakfast) Oh, so now it's *your* son, huh? The last time he was wreaking havoc in our livingroom, you said he was *my* son... Jeroen "Parental Guidance Recommended" van Baardwijk _ Wonderful-World-of-Brin-L Website: http://www.Brin-L.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Freedom Vanilla Ice Cream (was RE: Commentary on French-bashing)
At 14:44 14-03-03 -0800, Jeffrey Miller wrote: Trivia - the potato chip was actually invented in France by a cook who had an American (or was it british..) customer who kept sending back his fried potato dish, demanding thinner and thinner slices of potato.. Ah! So *that* is why the French and the Americans don't seem to get along! Should have known better than to anger a French chef... :-) Jeroen "Le Chef" van Baardwijk _ Wonderful-World-of-Brin-L Website: http://www.Brin-L.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Freedom Vanilla Ice Cream (was RE: Commentary on French-bashing)
"Miller, Jeffrey" wrote: > Trivia - the potato chip was actually invented in France by a cook who had an > American (or was it british..) customer who kept sending back his fried potato dish, > demanding thinner and thinner slices of potato.. I heard the same thing, but set elsewhere, so I googled a bit and found this fairly detailed text on potato chips: http://www.geography.ccsu.edu/harmonj/atlas/potchips.htm which suggests Saratoga Springs, NY is the point of origin. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Commentary on French-bashing
At 14:32 14-03-03 -0600, Dan Minette wrote: [The French] actively support a brutal dictator. I think it's quite odd that the US suddenly seems it fit to criticise an other country for supporting Saddam Hussein, when that very same US has done the exact same thing... And it's not like American companies haven't done business with Iraq since the second Gulf War. Halliburton, anyone? Jeroen "Make love, not war" van Baardwijk _ Wonderful-World-of-Brin-L Website: http://www.Brin-L.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Freedom Vanilla Ice Cream (was RE: Commentary on French-bashing)
> -Original Message- > From: S.V. van Baardwijk-Holten [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Friday, March 14, 2003 02:18 PM > To: Killer Bs Discussion > Subject: Re: Freedom Vanilla Ice Cream (was RE: Commentary on > French-bashing) > > > On Fri, 14 Mar 2003 14:03:03 -0800, Miller, Jeffrey > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > > > How about this - historically speaking, "french fries" > aren't French > > in > > origin. :D > > > OK. I'll try again. I just figured something out. It's something of a > language thingy. Frietes (Belgian/Dutch for fries) the fried > patato stick > dish, generally translates into English as French fries. Ah-ha! Here, what I /think/ you're describing is often refered to as "Home Fries" or "Pommes Frites" (fried potato/apple) in the more "upscale" places. > However 'French' > fries are translated literally to us 'Franse frietjes' which > in our (and > the Belgian) country are considered to be the very thin, long > and crisp > form of the same sort of fried patato stick meal. I can only > guess that > since the French quisine is known for it's daintyness the confusion > probably has it's origin somewhere there. Trivia - the potato chip was actually invented in France by a cook who had an American (or was it british..) customer who kept sending back his fried potato dish, demanding thinner and thinner slices of potato.. > >> Wentel teefjes (rotating bitches ?! :o), you just have to > be Dutch to > >> make that one up), Verwend schnitje, Verwoentes > Schnittchen (A Dutch > >> dialect and a German version of Pampered slices) just > to mention a > >> few very different ones. > > > > M... any region variations in preperation or serving? > > The Germans use a fresh, hard kind of whitish like bread (any > one wanne > translate 'zuurdesem brood'?). The Dutch use one or two day > old formerly > soft white bread, the french use leftover baguette. They all > use milk and > egg to make the bread soft and nice again. Panfried and with > suger they are > the best kind of breakfast one can have. Sounds exactly like what I'm used to. I also through in a teaspoon of vanilla, sweet "baking" spices, and a touch of rosewater. > GCU What are Ham waffles? http://gourmet.org/images/waffle.jpg ..for what is often refered to as a "Belgian" Waffle. A Ham Waffle will have bits of ham (and cheese) mixed into the batter before hand (I've also seen them put on top, but thats just Wrong..) -j- ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Freedom Vanilla Ice Cream (was RE: Commentary on French-bashing)
"S.V. van Baardwijk-Holten" wrote: > > GCU What are Ham waffles? > Waffles that are awful actors? :D Waffles are nice. Old bread dipped in eggs & milk, then fried in a pan, is *really* nice. And topping it with blueberry stuff is *extremely* nice. :) (Waffles with blueberry topping are also nice. For my syrup vehicle, I prefer pancakes. Especially Dan's Swedish pancakes, the recipe & technique passed from his grandmother to his aunt to him.) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Freedom Vanilla Ice Cream (was RE: Commentary on French-bashing)
On Fri, 14 Mar 2003 14:03:03 -0800, Miller, Jeffrey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: How about this - historically speaking, "french fries" aren't French in origin. :D OK. I'll try again. I just figured something out. It's something of a language thingy. Frietes (Belgian/Dutch for fries) the fried patato stick dish, generally translates into English as French fries. However 'French' fries are translated literally to us 'Franse frietjes' which in our (and the Belgian) country are considered to be the very thin, long and crisp form of the same sort of fried patato stick meal. I can only guess that since the French quisine is known for it's daintyness the confusion probably has it's origin somewhere there. Wentel teefjes (rotating bitches ?! :o), you just have to be Dutch to make that one up), Verwend schnitje, Verwoentes Schnittchen (A Dutch dialect and a German version of Pampered slices) just to mention a few very different ones. M... any region variations in preperation or serving? The Germans use a fresh, hard kind of whitish like bread (any one wanne translate 'zuurdesem brood'?). The Dutch use one or two day old formerly soft white bread, the french use leftover baguette. They all use milk and egg to make the bread soft and nice again. Panfried and with suger they are the best kind of breakfast one can have. (My son disagrees, but I think that eventually he'll grow out of his to date much beloved liquid porridge breakfast) Sonja GCU What are Ham waffles? ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Freedom Vanilla Ice Cream (was RE: Commentary on French-bashing)
> -Original Message- > From: S.V. van Baardwijk-Holten [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Friday, March 14, 2003 01:32 PM > To: Killer Bs Discussion > Subject: Re: Commentary on French-bashing > > > On Fri, 14 Mar 2003 11:33:49 -0800, Miller, Jeffrey > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > > > > >> > >> 1) For "French fries": > >> > >> They're not particularly French. I think McDonald's just > calls them > >> "fries" without any additional adjective. Just call them "fries", > >> unless they're the superior "steak fries", and call those > *that*, and > >> BTW, let me know where I can get "steak fries". :) > > > > IIRC from culinary school, they're Belgian in origin > > The Belgians would be grossly insulted if they heard this. > The Belgian fry > is very different from the French fry. It is almost triple in > diameter and > made from pieces that are visibly irregular because they are > supposed to be > cut by hand from real potato. Also they aren't as dry because > of the larger > size. How about this - historically speaking, "french fries" aren't French in origin. :D > >> 2) For "French toast": > >> > >> Someone on another mailing list told me that prior to one of the > >> World > >> Wars, it had been called "German toast". I have done no > research to > >> verify; does anyone here know? And I think my response > was, "Why don't > >> we just call it 'European toast'?" > > It is a meal know under many different names. Each country > (even each region has it's own name for this meal). *nod* The earliest I've found is late 1300's, but there's something quite similar in my copy of Apicus - I wonder if Julius ever had "Gaul Toast"? > > The earliest recipe I can find is "pain perdu" or "lost > bread" - but > > that doesn't mean its "French" by any real stretch; its kind of the > > peanut-butter & jelly of its day, appearing in most every > recipe book > > from the 1300's on. > > Wentel teefjes (rotating bitches ?! :o), you just have to be > Dutch to make > that one up), Verwend schnitje, Verwoentes Schnittchen (A > Dutch dialect and > a German version of Pampered slices) just to mention a few very > different ones. M... any region variations in preperation or serving? -jeffrey "still doesn't understand why ham waffles aren't universal" miller- ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Commentary on French-bashing
"S.V. van Baardwijk-Holten" wrote: > > On Fri, 14 Mar 2003 11:33:49 -0800, Miller, Jeffrey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > > > > >> > >> 1) For "French fries": > >> > >> They're not particularly French. I think McDonald's just calls them > >> "fries" without any additional adjective. Just call them "fries", > >> unless they're the superior "steak fries", and call those *that*, and > >> BTW, let me know where I can get "steak fries". :) > > > > IIRC from culinary school, they're Belgian in origin > > The Belgians would be grossly insulted if they heard this. The Belgian fry > is very different from the French fry. It is almost triple in diameter and > made from pieces that are visibly irregular because they are supposed to be > cut by hand from real potato. Also they aren't as dry because of the larger > size. That's more like the steak fries I keep babbling about. Maybe I ought to have Dan take me to a steakhouse soon, so I can get some, and maybe that will shut me up about them for awhile. :) Julia Texas Land & Cattle Maru ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Commentary on French-bashing
On Fri, 14 Mar 2003 11:33:49 -0800, Miller, Jeffrey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 1) For "French fries": They're not particularly French. I think McDonald's just calls them "fries" without any additional adjective. Just call them "fries", unless they're the superior "steak fries", and call those *that*, and BTW, let me know where I can get "steak fries". :) IIRC from culinary school, they're Belgian in origin The Belgians would be grossly insulted if they heard this. The Belgian fry is very different from the French fry. It is almost triple in diameter and made from pieces that are visibly irregular because they are supposed to be cut by hand from real potato. Also they aren't as dry because of the larger size. 2) For "French toast": Someone on another mailing list told me that prior to one of the World Wars, it had been called "German toast". I have done no research to verify; does anyone here know? And I think my response was, "Why don't we just call it 'European toast'?" It is a meal know under many different names. Each country (even each region has it's own name for this meal). The earliest recipe I can find is "pain perdu" or "lost bread" - but that doesn't mean its "French" by any real stretch; its kind of the peanut-butter & jelly of its day, appearing in most every recipe book from the 1300's on. Wentel teefjes (rotating bitches ?! :o), you just have to be Dutch to make that one up), Verwend schnitje, Verwoentes Schnittchen (A Dutch dialect and a German version of Pampered slices) just to mention a few very different ones. Sonja ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Commentary on French-bashing
- Original Message - From: "J. van Baardwijk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, March 14, 2003 2:21 PM Subject: Re: Commentary on French-bashing > At 11:58 13-03-03 -0800, Gautam Mukunda wrote: > > >France has been protected by the United States for almost a century > >now. The moment it no longer needs that immediate protection - the > >overriding and _publicly stated_ goal of French policy becomes to weaken > >the United States. > > Not *weaken* it, but *contain* it, to prevent the US from becoming some > megapower that goes around telling everyone on the planet what to do, how > to do it, and when to it -- and sending its troops into any country that > refuses to obey America's orders. Horrid horrid orders like "don't take over the Middle East, too. " What could we be thinking. > >Meanwhile, Villepin claims that his goal is to protect American > >soldiers. That's absurd. > > If France can prevent the war from happening, than it *has* effectively > protected American soldiers. After all, when there is no war, the risk to a > soldier's life is significantly less than when that soldier goes into combat. At the price of American civilian lives. If the French had strongly supported sanctions for the last 11 years, then they would have grounds to stand on. Instead, they tried to free Hussein to do what he wants. They even tried to aid him in becoming a nuclear power. In short, an active powerful Hussein is considered a plus for French foreign policy goals. They actively support a brutal dictator. The reason is not that they need to protect themselves against a country that would take them over militarily, but that they need to protect their prestige against the horrors of American preeminence. Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Commentary on French-bashing
At 11:58 13-03-03 -0800, Gautam Mukunda wrote: France has been protected by the United States for almost a century now. The moment it no longer needs that immediate protection - the overriding and _publicly stated_ goal of French policy becomes to weaken the United States. Not *weaken* it, but *contain* it, to prevent the US from becoming some megapower that goes around telling everyone on the planet what to do, how to do it, and when to it -- and sending its troops into any country that refuses to obey America's orders. Meanwhile, Villepin claims that his goal is to protect American soldiers. That's absurd. If France can prevent the war from happening, than it *has* effectively protected American soldiers. After all, when there is no war, the risk to a soldier's life is significantly less than when that soldier goes into combat. Jeroen "Make love, not war" van Baardwijk _ Wonderful-World-of-Brin-L Website: http://www.Brin-L.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Commentary on French-bashing
Someone said: > > Someone on another mailing list told me that prior to one of > > the World Wars, it had been called "German toast". I have > > done no research to verify; does anyone here know? And I > > think my response was, "Why don't we just call it 'European toast'?" Euro-toast! Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter & Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Commentary on French-bashing
> -Original Message- > From: Julia Thompson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2003 04:32 PM > To: Killer Bs Discussion > Subject: Re: Commentary on French-bashing > > > "Miller, Jeffrey" wrote: > > > > One thing that I especially love about the whole "freedom foods" > > stuff, is that neither French Fries or French Toast are > particularly > > French... > > 1) For "French fries": > > They're not particularly French. I think McDonald's just > calls them "fries" without any additional adjective. Just > call them "fries", unless they're the superior "steak fries", > and call those *that*, and BTW, let me know where I can get > "steak fries". :) IIRC from culinary school, they're Belgian in origin > 2) For "French toast": > > Someone on another mailing list told me that prior to one of > the World Wars, it had been called "German toast". I have > done no research to verify; does anyone here know? And I > think my response was, "Why don't we just call it 'European toast'?" The earliest recipe I can find is "pain perdu" or "lost bread" - but that doesn't mean its "French" by any real stretch; its kind of the peanut-butter & jelly of its day, appearing in most every recipe book from the 1300's on. http://www.florilegium.org/files/FOOD-BREADS/French-Toast-msg.text >From my library (Two Fifteenth-Century Cookery-Books, T. Austin (ed.) 42): Payn >pur-dew. Take fayre olkys of Eyroun, & trye hem fro the whyte, & draw hem thorw a >straynoure, & take Salt and caste ther-to; than take fayre brede, & kytte it as >trounde rounde; than take fayre Boter that is claryfiyd, or ellys fayre Freysshe >grece, & putte it on a potte, & make it hote; than take & wete wyl thin trounde in >the olkys, & putte hem in the panne, an so frye hem vppe; but ware of cleuyng to the >panne; & whan it is fryid, ley hem on a dysshe, & ley Sugre y-nowe ther-on, & thanne >serue it forht. -j- ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Commentary on French-bashing
--- Reggie Bautista <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Then there are people like me, who are all over the > spectrum when you measure the spectrum in > traditional > liberal vs. conservative terms, who agree or > disagree > with this war for a variety of reasons. I've seen > this > debate onlist cast more and more in black and white > terms, and I think this note from Guatam is a good > reminder that there is plenty of grey (or perhaps > plenty of black and white stripes) to go around. > > Reggie Bautista I think part of the problem is that there is one party in the whole dispute who is as black as you can get. Outside of the lunatics (ANSWER) everyone agrees that that party is as black as it is possible to be. _By contrast_ everyone else tends to look white. And if you're focused on that one party, and you find yourself in opposition to other people, even ones who don't mean to support him, then that color starts to shade over a bit. If you're attacking someone as evil as Saddam, and other people are, for whatever reason, trying to stop you, it can be hard to remember that they might have legitimate motivations for doing so. It gets still harder when many of most prominent opponents _don't_, in fact, have legitimate motivations for doing so, and harder yet when those people who are acting in good will don't seem to make much effort to separate themselves from those who aren't. That makes it very easy to make things black and white. Gautam __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online http://webhosting.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Commentary on French-bashing
Guatam wrote: Many of my friends who strongly oppose the war _loathe_ France, and will quite openly say that, because, even though they agree with France's position, its tactics and language have been those of enemies, not allies. This is really interesting. On the opposite side, many of my friends who strongly *support* the war loathe Bush. If you tone that down from "loathe" to "dislike and typically disagree with," then that description would include me as well. All too often in discussions like this, people start to see in black and white. I told someone recently that I support war against Saddam Hussein, and I was asked, "When did you become Republican?" There are lots of moderate liberals who support the war, and there are probably some moderate conservatives who are against the war. Then there are people like me, who are all over the spectrum when you measure the spectrum in traditional liberal vs. conservative terms, who agree or disagree with this war for a variety of reasons. I've seen this debate onlist cast more and more in black and white terms, and I think this note from Guatam is a good reminder that there is plenty of grey (or perhaps plenty of black and white stripes) to go around. Reggie Bautista _ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Commentary on French-bashing
At 04:25 PM 3/13/2003 -0600, you wrote: At 02:58 PM 3/13/03 -0600, Julia Thompson wrote: Maybe they [the French people] don't make sense all the time, but they can make a good wine. Maybe the two are connected? ;) When talking about the constellations in class, particularly how it is so hard to make _anything_ out of the bunch of random stars that are supposed to represent some kind of figure, animal, or object, I point out that many of the constellations we have trace their origins back to people who lived thousands of years ago in the regions around the Mediterranean Sea, which incidentally is an area where for thousands of years grapes have been grown and turned into wine . . . -- Ronn Err? I think the constellations are obvious. If you had a job as a sheepherder and it's as clear as it can be, then the night sky comes alive. I attended the planetarium show in NYC last year. First the speaker asked who had seen a truly clear night sky, then said only 1% of the country can see a truly clear night sky, from light pollution? Then he turned up the stars, from New York city brightness to what we should see and I'm thinking: I've seen it WAY brighter than that. I seen moonless nights that were bright enough to drive by. Kevin T. - VRWC Star hustler - night owl - "Out on the floor he shuffles his feet away" ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Commentary on French-bashing
At 06:49 PM 3/13/2003 -0600, you wrote: At 06:31 PM 3/13/03 -0600, Julia Thompson wrote: French vanilla ice cream, you can have, I'll take Homemade vanilla. :) Me, too. And as I've said before, the only thing French I'd be really worried about if they ban it is the kissing . . . Mind In Gutter Maru -- Ronn "She was so wild that when she made French toast she got her tongue caught in the toaster." Rodney Dangerfield Kevin T. - VRWC ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Commentary on French-bashing
At 06:31 PM 3/13/03 -0600, Julia Thompson wrote: French vanilla ice cream, you can have, I'll take Homemade vanilla. :) Me, too. And as I've said before, the only thing French I'd be really worried about if they ban it is the kissing . . . Mind In Gutter Maru -- Ronn! :) Your message here! (Call for rates.) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Commentary on French-bashing
"Miller, Jeffrey" wrote: > One thing that I especially love about the whole "freedom foods" > stuff, is that neither French Fries or French Toast are particularly > French... 1) For "French fries": They're not particularly French. I think McDonald's just calls them "fries" without any additional adjective. Just call them "fries", unless they're the superior "steak fries", and call those *that*, and BTW, let me know where I can get "steak fries". :) 2) For "French toast": Someone on another mailing list told me that prior to one of the World Wars, it had been called "German toast". I have done no research to verify; does anyone here know? And I think my response was, "Why don't we just call it 'European toast'?" French vanilla ice cream, you can have, I'll take Homemade vanilla. :) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Commentary on French-bashing
At 02:58 PM 3/13/03 -0600, Julia Thompson wrote: Maybe they [the French people] don't make sense all the time, but they can make a good wine. Maybe the two are connected? ;) When talking about the constellations in class, particularly how it is so hard to make _anything_ out of the bunch of random stars that are supposed to represent some kind of figure, animal, or object, I point out that many of the constellations we have trace their origins back to people who lived thousands of years ago in the regions around the Mediterranean Sea, which incidentally is an area where for thousands of years grapes have been grown and turned into wine . . . -- Ronn! :) Ronn Blankenship Instructor of Astronomy/Planetary Science University of Montevallo Montevallo, AL Disclaimer: Unless specifically stated otherwise, any opinions contained herein are the personal opinions of the author and do not represent the official position of the University of Montevallo. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Commentary on French-bashing
> -Original Message- > From: Julia Thompson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2003 12:59 PM > To: Killer Bs Discussion > Subject: Re: Commentary on French-bashing > > > Gautam, > > I didn't say I agreed with the article. I just put it out > there for commentary. I thought of some of your points as I > was reading it in the print paper earlier today. > > I'm wondering what everyone *else* thinks. > > Myself, I'm mostly disturbed by the fact that the entire > French people is being bashed due to what its political > figures are doing, and that admirable parts of its culture > (especially parts of its food producing > capacities) are being singled out with negative attention. > Maybe they don't make sense all the time, but they can make a > good wine. Maybe the two are connected? ;) One thing that I especially love about the whole "freedom foods" stuff, is that neither French Fries or French Toast are particularly French... =8^D -j- ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Commentary on French-bashing
--- Julia Thompson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Gautam,
>
> I didn't say I agreed with the article. I just put
> it out there for
> commentary. I thought of some of your points as I
> was reading it in the
> print paper earlier today.
>
> I'm wondering what everyone *else* thinks.
>
> Myself, I'm mostly disturbed by the fact that the
> entire French people
> is being bashed due to what its political figures
> are doing, and that
> admirable parts of its culture (especially parts of
> its food producing
> capacities) are being singled out with negative
> attention. Maybe they
> don't make sense all the time, but they can make a
> good wine. Maybe the
> two are connected? ;)
>
> Julia
Hi Julia. I didn't think that you did agree with it,
actually, and I'm sorry if that's what I implied. I
just thought that the article was, well, odd - I mean,
you can defend France on the grounds of "It's pursuing
its national interest, which is its right" - but that
doesn't seem to be what that article was about. That
was pretending that France was motivated by some
higher goal ("Like "protecting American boys") - which
is, well, you can guess what I think of that. It
would be a first, let's just leave it at that.
But I think another part of what's going on is that
Americans feel - quite possibly correctly - that this
_isn't_ just the French leadership. This is the
French people as well. Once Schroeder is gone it's at
least possible that Germany will act differently.
It's hard to imagine the CDU being so obdurate. But
Chirac (although not Villepin) is probably the _least_
anti-American leader France is likely to produce. He
has, or at least used to have, a pretty close
relationship with George H.W. Bush, for example. So
when he's gone, it's unlikely that relations between
the two countries will improve and they might, in
fact, deteriorate.
Gautam
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Re: Commentary on French-bashing
Gautam, I didn't say I agreed with the article. I just put it out there for commentary. I thought of some of your points as I was reading it in the print paper earlier today. I'm wondering what everyone *else* thinks. Myself, I'm mostly disturbed by the fact that the entire French people is being bashed due to what its political figures are doing, and that admirable parts of its culture (especially parts of its food producing capacities) are being singled out with negative attention. Maybe they don't make sense all the time, but they can make a good wine. Maybe the two are connected? ;) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Commentary on French-bashing
http://www.austin360.com/auto_docs/epaper/editions/thursday/life_entertainment_1.html > > Julia But, Julia, this article was absurd. The criticism of France isn't because they disagree with us. The Russians disagree with us - no one is going around making Russian jokes. The criticism is because France's behavior is so astonishingly cynical and hypocritical. France has been protected by the United States for almost a century now. The moment it no longer needs that immediate protection - the overriding and _publicly stated_ goal of French policy becomes to weaken the United States. That's not how your friends act. Meanwhile, Villepin claims that his goal is to protect American soldiers. That's absurd. All of the delaying that he and his cohorts have forced will undoubtedly kill more American soldiers, and to the extent that he cares, he's probably happy, because the more difficult the war is for us, the further we slip in global terms. The France-bashing isn't a reaction to opposition, it's a reaction to cynicism, hypocrisy, and betrayal. France is acting like our enemy while pretending to be our friend - that's why people are upset. Many of my friends who strongly oppose the war _loathe_ France, and will quite openly say that, because, even though they agree with France's position, its tactics and language have been those of enemies, not allies. They don't like America's enemies, even if they agree with their current position, and they really don't like enemies who pretend to be friends. A book in France claiming that 9/11 was a US government plot was the #1 bestseller for months - can you imagine the reaction if the #1 NYTimes bestseller in the US was something that vile? We ignore things like that at our peril. One quick example of how absurd that article is - he writes that one difference between us and the French is that we think late night comedians should shape public opinion. That's just dumb, and mainly shows how low the author's opinion of the American public is. The point of Stephanopoulos's question was that Jay Leno is _reflecting_ public opinion, and in the US, unlike France, public opinion has a real and immediate impact on foreign policy. The public is _pissed_. France hasn't taken that into its calculations. The French leadership is going around saying that there won't be any consequences to their actions. They are wrong, I think, but it will be too late before they figure that out. Gautam __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online http://webhosting.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
