Re: Brin: Forget global warming, let's make a difference
On Tue, 14 Jun 2005 17:37:09 -0400
Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
* David Brin ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
This is foul-mouthed insulting and sophistry.
Actually, no, this is facts.
For several messages ER has directed nasty ad hominem attacks at me.
Not at all. I did not consider your comments about Lomborg and neocons
to be nasty attacks. I used the exact rhetorical techniques you do in
your emails to the list. Weren't you the one who said that is the way to
communicate by email?
You might try, I was wrong instead of the whining.
I want the Brin: label removed from this set of exchanges. He has
reminded me why I opted out.
No problem, I will leave you out of any future discussions that involve
reality.
[Rest of off-topic rant deleted...]}
Oh shit, and that was going sooo well.
My two cents anyway it's not a matter of IF and SHOULD the u.s. sign the
Kyoto Accords but WHEN...They HAVE to sign something like it if they
want to keep the developing nation-states from developing the way we have (and
let's just assume it's been extremely irresponsible).
BUT consider our record on promoting conservation We say to the Brazilians;
Please don't destroy your biodiversity, displace your unique aboriginal
cultures and wantonly dump mercury into the AmazonAnd they say,
RIGHT, seen the condition of old growth forests in Ohio and the Mississippi
lately?
We say to the Kenyans, Please don't casually slaughter elephants and destroy
their habitat for farmland.. and they say tell it to the buffalo..
If the US is not dragged dragged into a thing like Kyoto, kicking and
screaming, BY the 2/3rd's world / then they will have no quarter to press the
issue in about 20 years (when it REALLY starts to matter). Has China
signed Kyoto? Russia, India?
Leonard Matusik [EMAIL PROTECTED]
{Did you know that the two greatest problems facing people today are
ignorance and apathy? / No, I didn't know that; and frankly, I couldn't
care less!}
--
Erik Reuter http://www.erikreuter.net/
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Re: Brin: Forget global warming, let's make a difference
Leonard Matusik [or someone else: you quote so badly that I can't get what is yours and what is quote] wrote: BUT consider our record on promoting conservation We say to the Brazilians; Please don't destroy your biodiversity, displace your unique aboriginal cultures and wantonly dump mercury into the Amazon And they say, RIGHT, seen the condition of old growth forests in Ohio and the Mississippi lately? The interesting thing is that Kyoto makes it extremely profitable to burn the damned rainforest and replace it by ethanol farms. The useless forest gives no Carbon credits, but alcohol does evil grin Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Brin: Forget global warming, let's make a difference
* David Brin ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: SHow me where he acknowledges any need to do anything at all. Dan beat me to it. See the passage Dan quotes. Lomborg is a practical guy, and the passage Dan found demonstrates it. Rather than spending $150B a year reducing carbon emissions to make a minimal impact on global warming, why don't we consider spending some of that money on research for solar and nuclear fusion power, or geoengineering? Personally, I'd add fuel cells and hydrogen-based technology to the list, since such technology could form the basis for automobiles to run without CO2 emissions (hydrogen or other fuel cell chemistries could, for example, be generated at non-CO2 emitting nuclear, solar, or wind power stations) His armwavings serve one function, to say all right, we won't deny it's happening anymore. So now let's lazily mozey down to the bunk house and snooze a bit then jaw a little about it, tomorrow. I refuse to accept that we must choose between huge problems to address. So he doesn't deny reality, but you do? We are vastly rich and capable. We have proved again and again that we can deal with multiple problems at the same time. Moreover, we must. So you don't acknowledge that resources are finite, and that people must choose how to spend there efforts and resources? H. Okay, well then why don't you choose to fund a lab to find better solutions to global warming? You should be able to fund a world-class lab for less than $1 billion a year. That won't be a problem for you, will it? After all, you apparently agree with spending $150B a year on reducing carbon emissions. Shall we employ a million biologists to cure AIDS and NOT employ a million engineers to improve energy efficiency? Of course not. Lomborg agrees with you that we should research cleaner energy sources. The disagreement is with implementing current plans to reduce carbon emission. Excuse me? There's a tradeoff here? Not one that I can see. Our descendants will judge us according to the things we neglected and fires we did NOT put out. I'm beginning to wonder if you only read the unfortunate title of Lomborg's article, and neglected to read the actual text. Yes, his title is sensational and not to be taken literally. But anyone who reads the text sees that Lomborg is quite concerned about helping people. Shall we spend $150B a year on Kyoto and cut 0.2C from globabl warming in 2100? Or should we spend half of that money on ensuring clean drinking water for millions of people around the world? Which one do you think our descendants will more appreciate? That is what a person would do if he were the reasonable fellow you portray Lomberg to be. He never even tries. His sole effect is to attack the credibility of all people who want to address this problem with any urgency. Woud you care to revise this statement? The shoe fits. These monsters have most of the world's media shilling for them. Nu? feudalists did that in most human cultures. We should be surprised they are doing it now? Talking about shoes fitting, this ranting sounds a lot like a rich, spoiled teenager shouting save the whales while millions are dying from lack of clean water. -- Erik Reuter http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Brin: Forget global warming, let's make a difference
This is foul-mouthed insulting and sophistry. For several messages ER has directed nasty ad hominem attacks at me. I want the Brin: label removed from this set of exchanges. He has reminded me why I opted out. BTW, none of his rants change the essential fact. The neocons first denied warming. Then denied it was human-caused. Then that it was significant. Now they claim it is TOO significant for any human-funded palliative measures to be effective without breaking the world's budget to solve other problems. And all this time they have repeated one refrain over and over. In reasonable tones, yet. We need more research... ...while savagely cutting the research budgets every chance they get. ...while taking a trillion dollars from our kids (in the form of new debt) to hand to their fellow artistocrats, on a promise that they would invest it all in new plants and inventions and equipment and factories (guess what? They heven't.) while they preside over the first war in our history in which the top tiers did not vote to tax themselves to pay for it. The first. The very first. With a smidgeon of that $trillion we could do many things, supplying both clean water and money for AIDS research, while applying reasonable prudence to our children's planet, so don't give me that crap about my not being pragmatic. Those are better projects than the biggest one currently financed... a trillion dollar project to socially re- engineer American society along gilded age aristocratic lines. That IS the big project, boys and girls. It is the one on which we are spending the most money. And oh... I am NOT a big fan of Kyoto. I would be happy to deliberate alternative efficiency-conservation approaches. Only there's a difference. When Lomberg et al say I would be happy to deliberate alternative efficiency-conservation approaches. They are LYING! Because after they preen and say that... they never ever do. It is an Orwellian big lie. The SUV standards are the smoking gun. Enough. I am outta here. What's sad is that these jerks are so hurting the image of conservatism that it will sink lower than post watergate. In five years, reasonable people will be fighting against the lefty backlash. Pragmatism is the victim. db PS Today announced. The service academies have seen a plummet in applications of unprecedented proportions. ranging from 12% (west point) to 22% (air force academy.) All services are plummeting in recruitment as our military readiness and morale plunge. But the service academies are a litmus. They reflect the other side of this. The administration's recent all-out political purge of the US Officer Corps. Leftists won't even notice these issues because of their patriotism is stupid reflex. Fortunately, while the left may be mired in an insane hostility toward the Officer Corps that is now our only bulwark and protection, not all democrats are lefties. See: http://www.trumanproject.org/ Many on the left would sneer at these folks as GOP Light. That is entirely wrong. These people want to reclaim the long democratic tradition of assertive foreign policy that is both prudent and bold, both moral and unafraid. Cooperative and yet unabashed at willingness to lead. The kind of leadership and assertive/decent Pax Americana that stepped into the Balkans and left the European Continent at peace under law for the first time in 4,000 years. Back when we still had allies who would trust us with more than a burnt match. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Brin: Forget global warming, let's make a difference
* David Brin ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: This is foul-mouthed insulting and sophistry. Actually, no, this is facts. For several messages ER has directed nasty ad hominem attacks at me. Not at all. I did not consider your comments about Lomborg and neocons to be nasty attacks. I used the exact rhetorical techniques you do in your emails to the list. Weren't you the one who said that is the way to communicate by email? You might try, I was wrong instead of the whining. I want the Brin: label removed from this set of exchanges. He has reminded me why I opted out. No problem, I will leave you out of any future discussions that involve reality. [Rest of off-topic rant deleted...] -- Erik Reuter http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Brin: Forget global warming, let's make a difference
On Jun 14, 2005, at 12:32 PM, David Brin wrote: PS Today announced. The service academies have seen a plummet in applications of unprecedented proportions. The No Child Left Behind bill had an elegant little solution built into it, one that has seen essentially no publicity. Kids' school records are made available to military channels, presumably so the mil folks can better judge who is the most suitable to be the next crop of cannon fodder. This strikes me as being a sickening cynical practice. Evidently neo-conservatives are comfortable with cannibalism. Parents can opt their kids out of the program, but the whys and wherefores are different from school district to school district. More here: http://www.leavemychildalone.org/ -- Warren Ockrassa, Publisher/Editor, nightwares Books http://books.nightwares.com/ Current work in progress The Seven-Year Mirror http://www.nightwares.com/books/ockrassa/Flat_Out.pdf ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Brin: Forget global warming, let's make a difference
On 6/14/05, Warren Ockrassa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jun 14, 2005, at 12:32 PM, David Brin wrote: PS Today announced. The service academies have seen a plummet in applications of unprecedented proportions. The No Child Left Behind bill had an elegant little solution built into it, one that has seen essentially no publicity. Kids' school records are made available to military channels, presumably so the mil folks can better judge who is the most suitable to be the next crop of cannon fodder. This strikes me as being a sickening cynical practice. What, the eugenics bit, or the civil liberties bit? Evidently neo-conservatives are comfortable with cannibalism. Parents can opt their kids out of the program, but the whys and wherefores are different from school district to school district. More here: http://www.leavemychildalone.org/ Warren Ockrassa, Publisher/Editor, nightwares Books ~Maru ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Brin: Forget global warming, let's make a difference
--- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://tinyurl.com/aom39 http://www.money.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2005/06/13/ccpers13.xmlmenuId=242sSheet=/money/2005/06/13/ixfrontcity.html Personal view: Forget global warming. Let's make a real difference By Bjørn Lomborg (Filed: 13/06/2005) Yes, this is Lomberg, all right. Shilling for the ruling class. Unbelievable. There is AIDS in the world, so let's NOT talk about other problems. By all means let us only take on the priorities listed by his Copenhagen Consensus. Never consider that the great Academies of Science may have reached a consensus that the Earth is in danger for good reason. feh. Lomberg is smarter and better than Crichton and the worst neocons. That only makes his shilling for them even more shameful. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Brin: Forget global warming, let's make a difference
* David Brin ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Unbelievable. There is AIDS in the world, so let's NOT talk about other problems. By all means let us only take on the priorities listed by his Copenhagen Consensus. Never consider that the great Academies of Science may have reached a consensus that the Earth is in danger for good reason. feh. Lomberg is smarter and better than Crichton and the worst neocons. That only makes his shilling for them even more shameful. Wow, David, I wonder if someone could totally miss the point more. Yes, many scientists agree that there is a global warming problem. _Lomberg_ himself agrees. That is not the issue Lomberg was addressing. The issue is whether we should spend resources implementing any of the currently proposed solutions to global warming. That is an economic question. We have limited resources. Where are these resources best spent? Certainly not on Kyoto. Lomberg doesn't have anything against talking about the global warming problem. And I doubt he would say investing money to research solutions to global warming would be a waste. If someone comes up with an effective solution to global warming that is cost competitive with other solutions to important world problems, then I am sure that Lomberg would be all for it. Shilling for the neocons? Feh. You have conspiracy theory on the brain, Brin. -- Erik Reuter http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Brin: Forget global warming, let's make a difference
--- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Lomberg doesn't have anything against talking about the global warming problem. And I doubt he would say investing money to research solutions to global warming would be a waste. SHow me where he acknowledges any need to do anything at all. His armwavings serve one function, to say all right, we won't deny it's happening anymore. So now let's lazily mozey down to the bunk house and snooze a bit then jaw a little about it, tomorrow. I refuse to accept that we must choose between huge problems to address. We are vastly rich and capable. We have proved again and again that we can deal with multiple problems at the same time. Moreover, we must. Shall we employ a million biologists to cure AIDS and NOT employ a million engineers to improve energy efficiency? Excuse me? There's a tradeoff here? Not one that I can see. Our descendants will judge us according to the things we neglected and fires we did NOT put out. Nuts. If someone comes up with an effective solution to global warming that is cost competitive with other solutions to important world problems, then I am sure that Lomberg would be all for it. Show me a scintilla of evidence that he is inclined to do this. His statements all manifest as attacks upon the reasonableness of the vast majority of esteemed scientists, never does he pose a rank order of carbon palliating measures that either (according to him) make sense or do not. That is what a person would do if he were the reasonable fellow you portray Lomberg to be. He never even tries. His sole effect is to attack the credibility of all people who want to address this problem with any urgency. Shilling for the neocons? Feh. You have conspiracy theory on the brain, Brin. The shoe fits. These monsters have most of the world's media shilling for them. Nu? feudalists did that in most human cultures. We should be surprised they are doing it now? db ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Brin: Forget global warming, let's make a difference
- Original Message - From: David Brin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 7:14 PM Subject: Re: Brin: Forget global warming, let's make a difference --- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Lomberg doesn't have anything against talking about the global warming problem. And I doubt he would say investing money to research solutions to global warming would be a waste. SHow me where he acknowledges any need to do anything at all. http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-files/Guardian/documents/2001/08/14/warming.pdf quote Third, we should realize that the cost of global warming will be substantial - about $5 trillion. Since cutting back CO2 emissions quickly turns very costly and easily counterproductive, we should focus more of our effort at finding ways of easing the emission of greenhouse gases over the long run. Partly, this means that we need to invest much more in research and development of solar power, fusion and other likely power sources of the future. Given a current US investment in renewable energy research and development of just $200 million, a considerable increase would seem a promising investment to achieve a possible conversion to renewable energy towards the latter part of the century. Partly, this also means that we should be much more open towards other techno-fixes (so-called geoengineering). These suggestions range from fertilizing the ocean (making more algae bind carbon when they die and fall to the ocean floor) and putting sulfur particles into the stratosphere (cooling the earth) to capturing CO2 from fossil fuel use and returning it to storage in geological formations.30 Again, if one of these approaches could indeed mitigate (part of) CO2 emissions or global warming, this would be of tremendous value to the world. end quote ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
