RE: Dr. Brin's LPNC keynote speech

2002-12-11 Thread Gary Nunn

Reggie asked...
 Harureruru... Isn't that a city in Hawaii?


or else it's a fierce sneeze..
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Re: Dr. Brin's LPNC keynote speech

2002-12-11 Thread Steve Sloan II
Debbie wrote:

 Deborafu Harureruru

Reggie Bautista wrote:

 Harureruru... Isn't that a city in Hawaii?

That's how Scooby Doo would pronounce the name of their
capital city. ;-)
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Re: Dr. Brin's LPNC keynote speech

2002-12-11 Thread Robert Seeberger

- Original Message -
From: Steve Sloan II [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 11:18 AM
Subject: Re: Dr. Brin's LPNC keynote speech


 Debbie wrote:

  Deborafu Harureruru

 Reggie Bautista wrote:

  Harureruru... Isn't that a city in Hawaii?

 That's how Scooby Doo would pronounce the name of their
 capital city. ;-)


Scooby Doo is Japanese???



xponent
Deliberate Confusion Maru
rob


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Re: Dr. Brin's LPNC keynote speech

2002-12-10 Thread Deborah Harrell
Finally got the time to read this in one go - not only
does it engender cheerful agreement,
self-congratulatory vindication, unpleasant
self-recognition, and nodding determination, but it
also ties-in to recent threads from 'Lord of the
Rings' through Robert Kagan to Official Statements.

--- Bryon Daly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
snip
 Have you guys read Dr. Brin's keynote speech for the
 Libertarian Party National
 Convention?  He's published it here: 
 http://www.kithrup.com/brin/libertarianarticle1.html
 What do you think of it?

From page 2:
According to the philosophical tradition first
expressed by Plato, our world is made up of essences
or quasi-linguistic elements that are more fundamental
than the murky world of complex physical people and
objects. Belief in these essences retarded the arrival
of Galilean science for 2,000 years, because it was so
widely assumed that a real thinker would prefer to
spend time pondering pure thoughts, than getting dirty
with experiments.
To a religious person these essences are articles of
faith. To men of reason, they can be logical
syllogisms or well-wrought ideological principles.
(Ain't it odd that faith and reason are so often
viewed as polar opposites? To a pragmatist, they look
like very close cousins, operating under the same very
questionable assumption -- that words can somehow
over-rule gritty reality.)

Oh, I like!  ;)

 While I'm not sure I agree with everything he says,
 I thought that overall, it was a
 brilliant speech.  For me, there were several Wow -
 I never thought of it *that way*!
 moments and other ideas that really gave me some new
 perspectives on things.

Frex, the 'objective reality' folks (whom I was unable
to articulate my distrust of, but felt nevertheless):

Rather than deal in gritty tests and iterative
experimentation, [Ann] Rand used objective reality
as a mantric phrase -- an incantatory touchstone that
served as a rock, an unquestionable axiomatic
foundation. In effect, an article of faith.
Around this she would go on to weave cajoling and
persuading rhythms, almost identical in form to the
Plato's Socratic dialogues, such as Phaedrus -- and,
indeed, similar to much of the Marxist dialexctic -- 
...Central to this zeitgeist is the implied and
desired assumption of mental superiority...

smugness

About regulations, he notes That the urge to regulate
should always face a steep and constantly renewed
burden of proof.
Science has learned recently that contempt and
indignation are addictive mental states. I mean
physically and chemically addictive. Literally! People
who are self-righteous a lot are apparently doping
themselves rhythmically with auto-secreted surges of
dopamine, endorphins and enkephalins. Didn't you ever
ask yourself why indignation feels so good?

...Can we step back to see that this emotional need
to feel superior runs deeper than any of our
superficial differences over politics and ideology? It
makes you far more like your opponents than you would
ever like to admit.
In other words, spanning all extremes of reason and
morality, it's human.

shakes head from karmic slappage  Ouch!

Thou shalt not offend others.
Thou shalt not allow thyself to be offended too
easily.
I think I can try to live with that.

In an echo of one of Kagan's themes, on page 4 he
notes: In other words, the precondition necessary for
creating paradise is... near-paradise. And, viewed in
the context of human history, that is exactly what
we've got right now.  (Although Kagan felt that
America was denied that state, I think Brin's view is
closer to current reality.)

 I also would like to see what other people think
 about this specific excerpt from the
 speech (from pg. 3):
I snipped this further 
  When it comes to imposing or eliminating
 government regulation, which of the major parties is
 the 'lesser of evils'?
 
  Not enough of a hint? Well, for now, just try
 on one irony. We are used to the cliché that
 Democrats favor
  freedom in the bedroom while Republicans favor
 freedom in the boardroom. But look over the last 30
  years. How many industries have been
 deregulated to a degree that's more than cosmetic? I
 count trucking, banking, real estate,
 telecommunications, airlines and parcel post. And
 the 'industry' of the
  Welfare Program. Now ask, how many or these
 major steps were taken as Republican initiatives and
 how many Democratic?

 I haven't been a serious political follower, so I'm
 not sure about the origins of all those initiatives,
 but I suspect they were mostly Republican ones - (am
 I wrong on this?) 

NAFTA (trucking, among others) came in under Clinton,
but I don't know if Dems initiated it.  My political
saavy is still in infancy... :)

As my last reading of anything Heinlein was over 2
decades ago, I'll consider re-trying.  Maybe.  :/

Deborafu Harureruru

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NAFTA Re: Dr. Brin's LPNC keynote speech

2002-12-10 Thread Julia Thompson
Deborah Harrell wrote:

 NAFTA (trucking, among others) came in under Clinton,
 but I don't know if Dems initiated it.  My political
 saavy is still in infancy... :)

It was set up by Bush-41 (i.e., GHWB, the father), at least.

Don't remember exactly when it was ratified, but it might have been in
the last days of Bush-41.  I remember Perot slamming the whole thing
when it wasn't yet ratified.

Julia

who is sure that someone will come up with an exact date sometime in the
next 24 hours for our edification
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Re: Dr. Brin's LPNC keynote speech

2002-12-02 Thread Erik Reuter
On Mon, Dec 02, 2002 at 04:35:13PM -0500, Bryon Daly wrote:

 Have you guys read Dr. Brin's keynote speech for the
 Libertarian Party National Convention?  He's published it here:
 http://www.kithrup.com/brin/libertarianarticle1.html What do you think
 of it?

  Not enough of a hint? Well, for now, just try on one irony. We
  are used to the cliché that Democrats favor freedom in the
  bedroom while Republicans favor freedom in the boardroom. But
  look over the last 30 years. How many industries have been
  deregulated to a degree that's more than cosmetic? I count
  trucking, banking, real estate, telecommunications, airlines
  and parcel post. And the 'industry' of the Welfare Program. Now
  ask, how many or these major steps were taken as Republican
  initiatives and how many Democratic?

 I haven't been a serious political follower, so I'm not sure about the
 origins of all those initiatives,

I don't know the origins either but...

 but I suspect they were mostly Republican ones - (am I wrong on this?)

knowing Brin, I believe you are wrong on this.

  To me, this seems to be saying the Republicans are the natural
 and honorable opponent and Democrats as the party predicated
 upon preventing you from ever getting a chance to be heard..  But
 elsewhere in the speech, he says he votes Democrat sometimes... so
 maybe my guess is wrong?...

Yes, your guess is wrong. Brin is more progressive than conservative
(understatement?). I think he sees libertarians as fighting against
all types of government regulation (boardroom or bedroom), democrats
as fighting bedroom regulation, and Republicans as (theoretically)
fighting boardroom regulation. But he believes the Republicans have
failed in their mission. The conflict he refers to is between the
libertarians, finding ways to increase freedom and reduce government,
and the democrats who will try to find ways to use government to
advantage in solving societal problems.

 about making a choice of allies between one with
 short-term-similar/long-term-different goals and one with similar
 long-term goals but a different idea on how to get there - so that
 makes me wonder which of those he see the Democrats as.

short-term-similar/long-term-different = Republicans (conservative)

long-term-similar = Democrats, both libertarians and Dems want to change
and improve the country, but one wants to do it with little government,
the other with lots of government.


-- 
Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.erikreuter.net/
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