Re: Hypothetical Uplift question
>In a message dated 11/26/2004 7:02:47 PM US Mountain Standard Time, >[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > >I just finished rereading all of Dr.Brin's Uplift novels (thanks >again, they were great) and a question occurred to me concerning >chimps and humans. > >Since humans and chimps are from the same planet and have 98% of their >DNA identical to one another would The Galactics even consider the two >as seperate? The answer is Yes, they are separate species, even if the Galactics don't like it. In fact, I think that Dr. Brin actually addresses this issue at one point in one of his Uplift novels. Basically at some point while noting that Earth has a ridiculous number of "Upliftable" species between chimps, gorillas, humans (if some have their way!), and beta-orangatangs without even mentioning dolphins, whales, dogs, maybe seals, etc. it is mentioned that this is because in most Galactic worlds - the common ancestor of humans-chimps-gorillas-orangatangs would have been uplifted long before that species could have diversified into four Upliftable species. JDG ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Hypothetical Uplift question
>From :Warren Ockrassa >But yeah, it's possible that after a few centuries of careful >adjustment it would be pretty hard to tell us from chimps. >(Interestingly I imagine the scale in reverse would be equally easy to >achieve -- a few centuries of carelessness and we're basically back in >the trees. ;) This is kind of the point I was trying to make. The Galactics are used to a process whereby they Uplift a client race who doesn't even have to come from the same Galaxy as they do, and other than the accidental similarities brought on by convergent evolution, the genetics of the race would be 100% different than their own. Then these same Galactics are told about Man and their client race, Neo-Chimp, where other than superficial, cosmetic differences they are virtually identical, even down to the DNA. I just think it would be hard to convince any Galactic, especially those who think unaided Uplift is a fantasy, that they aren't looking at the same animal at two different stages of Uplift. John Moynihan ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Hypothetical Uplift question
At 10:37 PM 26/11/04 -0500, you wrote: snip The very fact that the 2 species cannot interbreed would probably be telling... I have often wondered about this. The differences are far smaller than between horses and donkeys. Is there a definite statement out there that chimps and humans can't? Keith Henson ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Hypothetical Uplift question
In a message dated 11/27/2004 5:42:07 PM US Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Warren, isn't restoring those lacking charactersitics the whole point of Uplift? After a good amount of progress on Uplifting the chimps, they would be near indistinguishable as far as that went. ~Maru Stop thinking like a logical human. As soon as you splice their genes, you got them by the short hairs for at least one hundred thousand years. Even if you breed out all their hairs. That's how Galactic Civilization works. It the basic gimmick. Vilyehm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Hypothetical Uplift question
On Nov 27, 2004, at 5:38 PM, Maru wrote: Warren, isn't restoring those lacking charactersitics the whole point of Uplift? After a good amount of progress on Uplifting the chimps, they would be near indistinguishable as far as that went. That's an interesting way to see it, sure -- but initially one would see clear differences, I'd imagine. Also, I don't know if I'd say that Uplift is the process of restoring so much as granting. And the definition of lack is pretty relative, IIRC; the Uplift sextet seemed to be partly about how patron species *messed up* their clients (at least from our point of view)... But yeah, it's possible that after a few centuries of careful adjustment it would be pretty hard to tell us from chimps. (Interestingly I imagine the scale in reverse would be equally easy to achieve -- a few centuries of carelessness and we're basically back in the trees. ;) -- Warren Ockrassa, Publisher/Editor, nightwares Books http://books.nightwares.com/ Current work in progress "The Seven-Year Mirror" http://www.nightwares.com/books/ockrassa/Flat_Out.pdf ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Hypothetical Uplift question
Warren, isn't restoring those lacking charactersitics the whole point of Uplift? After a good amount of progress on Uplifting the chimps, they would be near indistinguishable as far as that went. ~Maru > From: Warren Ockrassa <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> On Nov 26, 2004, at 12:23 PM, John Moynihan wrote: > > > I just finished rereading all of Dr.Brin's Uplift novels > (thanks > > again, they were great) and a question occurred to me > concerning > > chimps and humans. > > > > Since humans and chimps are from the same planet and have 98% > of their > > DNA identical to one another would The Galactics even > consider the two > > as seperate? > > > > I mean when a Kanten or a Soro looked at the two, even to the > point of > > looking at the genetics, wouldn't they simply think they were > looking > > at two variations of the same animal? > > Hmm, why would they? I mean, you'd have to go by more than > appearance > -- there's behavior as well. While we share a lot of behavior > traits > with our simian cousins, we do have some characteristics > (organized > language, technology) that they lack. > > -- > Warren Ockrassa, Publisher/Editor, nightwares Books > http://books.nightwares.com/ > Current work in progress "The Seven-Year Mirror" > http://www.nightwares.com/books/ockrassa/Flat_Out.pdf > __ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Hypothetical Uplift question
- Original Message - From: "Warren Ockrassa" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, November 26, 2004 9:50 PM Subject: Re: Hypothetical Uplift question > On Nov 26, 2004, at 8:37 PM, Damon Agretto wrote: > > > The very fact that the 2 species cannot interbreed would probably be > > telling... > > Well, there go *my* holiday plans. > Holiday Plans What am I going to tell my wife? xponent Ook Ook Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Hypothetical Uplift question
In a message dated 11/26/2004 7:02:47 PM US Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I just finished rereading all of Dr.Brin's Uplift novels (thanks again, they were great) and a question occurred to me concerning chimps and humans. The chimps are the ones with better manners. Since humans and chimps are from the same planet and have 98% of their DNA identical to one another would The Galactics even consider the two as seperate? Yes, because you can't get one from the other, despite what you've seen on UPN wrestling might. I mean when a Kanten or a Soro looked at the two, even to the point of looking at the genetics, wouldn't they simply think they were looking at two variations of the same animal? I think you need to bring a bit of Cordwainer Smith into the picture, which Dr Brin has stated was influential in writing his Uplift Universe. Remember the hoon official at Kazzkark (Now singing sea ditties and expecting his first grandchild.) Black chimp, white chimp with a tale. Makes no difference. Show me your papers. Gotta have your papers. Chimps don't have Patron status. Don't have their papers. John Moynihan P.S. I just thought I would post a benign question about Dr.Brin's world as my first post to this forum before I waded into any of the more confrontational topics. ;-) And so we benign the beguine? Music, Mistro! Play on. Vilyehm -- PS. Wanna read more? Even if not from Dr. Brin? ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Hypothetical Uplift question
On Fri, 26 Nov 2004, Warren Ockrassa wrote: > On Nov 26, 2004, at 8:37 PM, Damon Agretto wrote: > > > The very fact that the 2 species cannot interbreed would probably be > > telling... > > Well, there go *my* holiday plans. Just get a handy DNA-splicing kit, and maybe you can salvage some of the holiday. ;) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Hypothetical Uplift question
On Nov 26, 2004, at 8:37 PM, Damon Agretto wrote: The very fact that the 2 species cannot interbreed would probably be telling... Well, there go *my* holiday plans. -- Warren Ockrassa, Publisher/Editor, nightwares Books http://books.nightwares.com/ Current work in progress "The Seven-Year Mirror" http://www.nightwares.com/books/ockrassa/Flat_Out.pdf ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Hypothetical Uplift question
Since humans and chimps are from the same planet and have 98% of their DNA identical to one another would The Galactics even consider the two as seperate? I mean when a Kanten or a Soro looked at the two, even to the point of looking at the genetics, wouldn't they simply think they were looking at two variations of the same animal? I would qualify my response by stating I am not a zoologist. I think the difference between chimps and Humies would be akin to the differences between, say, horses and deer. Both have similar design features, (hoofed animals), but under closer scrutiny have some very different structures. Similarly, the fact that chimps have different skull, feet, and hip structures would show enough differences to classify as something seperate. That 2% is an important 2%. The very fact that the 2 species cannot interbreed would probably be telling... Damon. Damon Agretto [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum." http://www.geocities.com/garrand.geo/index.html Now Building: Legends Aussie Centurion Mk.5/1 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Hypothetical Uplift question
On Nov 26, 2004, at 12:23 PM, John Moynihan wrote: I just finished rereading all of Dr.Brin's Uplift novels (thanks again, they were great) and a question occurred to me concerning chimps and humans. Since humans and chimps are from the same planet and have 98% of their DNA identical to one another would The Galactics even consider the two as seperate? I mean when a Kanten or a Soro looked at the two, even to the point of looking at the genetics, wouldn't they simply think they were looking at two variations of the same animal? Hmm, why would they? I mean, you'd have to go by more than appearance -- there's behavior as well. While we share a lot of behavior traits with our simian cousins, we do have some characteristics (organized language, technology) that they lack. -- Warren Ockrassa, Publisher/Editor, nightwares Books http://books.nightwares.com/ Current work in progress "The Seven-Year Mirror" http://www.nightwares.com/books/ockrassa/Flat_Out.pdf ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
