Re: Scouted: Surgery on Brain Tumor 'cures' pedophile
Ronn!Blankenship [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jon Gabriel wrote: From: Ronn!Blankenship [EMAIL PROTECTED] OK, I'm pretty sure I've lost the attributions somewhere along the line, but it wasn't intentional! [Jon or Ronn! I think posted:] http://www.salon.com/mwt/wire/2003/07/28/pedophile/index.html The man had an egg-sized brain tumor pressing on the right frontal lobe. When surgeons removed it, the lewd behavior and pedophilia faded away... snip Dr. Stuart C. Yudofsky, a psychiatrist at the Baylor College of Medicine who specializes in behavioral changes associated with brain disorders, also has seen the way brain tumors can bend a person's behavior. This tells us something about being human, doesn't it? Yudofsky said. If one's actions are governed by how well the brain is working, does it mean we have less free will than we think? Frontal lobe tumors can be clinically 'silent' for years, or they can cause subtle - profound behavioral and personality changes - this is not a new finding. Although the pedophilia effect is, AFAIK. snip So what do we do to protect society from those who commit heinous crimes where either (1) no organic problem can be found, (2) an organic problem is found, but we don't know how to treat it, or (3) an organic problem is found and treated, but the behavior does not change? Well, in the case of pedophiles, that would be: 1) Firing Squad 2) Firing Squad 3) Castration, then Firing Squad Yes, I'm serious. I think they're repulsive. I think we agree on that. Think I said the much the same last year. To answer your question in a different way, I suppose the solution may just be to give people a test to see if they have a tumor that, if removed, may cure them. If they don't, prosecute. If no other medical condition has been found to conclusively cause aberrant behavior of this type then the theory that one might is probably legally irrelevant. snappish mode I'm sure some lawyer somewhere will try, though. Here's the COW, as I see it: In many jurisdictions, one can be found not guilty due to mental defect or disease (or words to that effect), i.e., what is often referred to as the insanity defense. Let's suppose a pedophile, or a murderer, or a insert heinous crime of your choice here is found to have a brain tumor (or other clearly diagnosable organic brain dysfunction). Do we: (a) declare him not guilty due to his illness and let him go because legally he is not guilty of anything? Not without the offending condition being treated; if it's untreatable, he's incarcerated as criminally insane -- and never leaves unless a cure is later discovered -- which was one of your options: (b) or submit to treatment for the illness, and if the illness cannot be treatedcommit him to a secure mental institution for at least the same amount of time, or until such time as he does respond to treatment? (BTW, how do you tell for sure if a pedophile has really been cured except by letting him out and observing that he does not re-offend?) There is no other sure way, unfortunately. While I would be inclined toward something like (b) (IANAL so don't yell at me if I have put some of it incorrectly), I expect that many will say either (1) He's been found not guilty, so legally he should be free to go, or (2) Mentally ill people should not be imprisoned like common criminals, or something of that sort. Do we need to change the laws to allow for a verdict of guilty but insane which would require the person to be confined for the protection of society until he is no longer a danger and receive treatment if any is available? Yes. However I can see a huge potential for abuse by 'the system' here. Oversight or otherwise independent committees would have to be created. In the latter case, do we make these people guinea pigs for experimental treatments which may or may not cure their problem (although there certainly are treatments which will cause them to no longer be a danger to society: a radical prefrontal lobotomy, frex, though the result of such an extreme treatment may well be that they will have to be institutionalized for the rest of their lives because they are no longer able to function well enough to care for themselves), or what? Mmm, the thought of such experimental treatments makes my blood run cold. The problem with offering these people a choice between potentially curative therapy (which I am assuming carries significant risk to the offender, b/c if there was low risk then I wouldn't object strongly to it - just as we require jailed inmates with TB to take anti-tuberculous medication for the protection of the prison population), and lifelong incarceration, is that they are likely not competent to make such decisions; they would have to have medical-legal guardians/power-of-attorney, probably court-appointed (another
Re: Scouted: Surgery on Brain Tumor 'cures' pedophile
At 12:04 PM 7/28/03 -0400, Jon Gabriel wrote: http://www.salon.com/mwt/wire/2003/07/28/pedophile/index.html Excerpt: The man had an egg-sized brain tumor pressing on the right frontal lobe. When surgeons removed it, the lewd behavior and pedophilia faded away. Exactly why, the surgeons cannot quite explain. It's possible the tumor released some pre-existing urges, Burns said. But that's a tough debate, we just don't know. The outcome raises questions not only about how tumors alter brain function, but also how they can influence behavior and judgment. Daniel T. Tranel, a University of Iowa neurology researcher, said he has seen people with brain tumors lie, damage property, and in extremely rare cases, commit murder. The individual simply loses the ability to control impulses or anticipate the consequences of choices, Tranel said. Dr. Stuart C. Yudofsky, a psychiatrist at the Baylor College of Medicine who specializes in behavioral changes associated with brain disorders, also has seen the way brain tumors can bend a person's behavior. This tells us something about being human, doesn't it? Yudofsky said. If one's actions are governed by how well the brain is working, does it mean we have less free will than we think? It's a question with vast implications in the criminal justice system. The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that executing mentally retarded murderers is unconstitutionally cruel because of their diminished ability to reason and control their urges So what do we do to protect society from those who commit heinous crimes where either (1) no organic problem can be found, (2) an organic problem is found, but we don't know how to treat it, or (3) an organic problem is found and treated, but the behavior does not change? --Ronn! :) I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed that I would see the last. --Dr. Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Scouted: Surgery on Brain Tumor 'cures' pedophile
From: Ronn!Blankenship [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Scouted: Surgery on Brain Tumor 'cures' pedophile Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 14:17:33 -0500 At 12:04 PM 7/28/03 -0400, Jon Gabriel wrote: http://www.salon.com/mwt/wire/2003/07/28/pedophile/index.html Excerpt: The man had an egg-sized brain tumor pressing on the right frontal lobe. When surgeons removed it, the lewd behavior and pedophilia faded away. Exactly why, the surgeons cannot quite explain. It's possible the tumor released some pre-existing urges, Burns said. But that's a tough debate, we just don't know. The outcome raises questions not only about how tumors alter brain function, but also how they can influence behavior and judgment. Daniel T. Tranel, a University of Iowa neurology researcher, said he has seen people with brain tumors lie, damage property, and in extremely rare cases, commit murder. The individual simply loses the ability to control impulses or anticipate the consequences of choices, Tranel said. Dr. Stuart C. Yudofsky, a psychiatrist at the Baylor College of Medicine who specializes in behavioral changes associated with brain disorders, also has seen the way brain tumors can bend a person's behavior. This tells us something about being human, doesn't it? Yudofsky said. If one's actions are governed by how well the brain is working, does it mean we have less free will than we think? It's a question with vast implications in the criminal justice system. The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that executing mentally retarded murderers is unconstitutionally cruel because of their diminished ability to reason and control their urges So what do we do to protect society from those who commit heinous crimes where either (1) no organic problem can be found, (2) an organic problem is found, but we don't know how to treat it, or (3) an organic problem is found and treated, but the behavior does not change? Well, in the case of pedophiles, that would be: 1) Firing Squad 2) Firing Squad 3) Castration, then Firing Squad Yes, I'm serious. I think they're repulsive. To answer your question in a different way, I suppose the solution may just be to give people a test to see if they have a tumor that, if removed, may cure them. If they don't, prosecute. If no other medical condition has been found to conclusively cause aberrant behavior of this type then the theory that one might is probably legally irrelevant. Jon ROU Insert Disclaimer Here Le Blog: http://zarq.livejournal.com _ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Scouted: Surgery on Brain Tumor 'cures' pedophile
At 03:41 PM 7/28/03 -0400, Jon Gabriel wrote: From: Ronn!Blankenship [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Scouted: Surgery on Brain Tumor 'cures' pedophile Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 14:17:33 -0500 At 12:04 PM 7/28/03 -0400, Jon Gabriel wrote: http://www.salon.com/mwt/wire/2003/07/28/pedophile/index.html Excerpt: The man had an egg-sized brain tumor pressing on the right frontal lobe. When surgeons removed it, the lewd behavior and pedophilia faded away. Exactly why, the surgeons cannot quite explain. It's possible the tumor released some pre-existing urges, Burns said. But that's a tough debate, we just don't know. The outcome raises questions not only about how tumors alter brain function, but also how they can influence behavior and judgment. Daniel T. Tranel, a University of Iowa neurology researcher, said he has seen people with brain tumors lie, damage property, and in extremely rare cases, commit murder. The individual simply loses the ability to control impulses or anticipate the consequences of choices, Tranel said. Dr. Stuart C. Yudofsky, a psychiatrist at the Baylor College of Medicine who specializes in behavioral changes associated with brain disorders, also has seen the way brain tumors can bend a person's behavior. This tells us something about being human, doesn't it? Yudofsky said. If one's actions are governed by how well the brain is working, does it mean we have less free will than we think? It's a question with vast implications in the criminal justice system. The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that executing mentally retarded murderers is unconstitutionally cruel because of their diminished ability to reason and control their urges So what do we do to protect society from those who commit heinous crimes where either (1) no organic problem can be found, (2) an organic problem is found, but we don't know how to treat it, or (3) an organic problem is found and treated, but the behavior does not change? Well, in the case of pedophiles, that would be: 1) Firing Squad 2) Firing Squad 3) Castration, then Firing Squad Yes, I'm serious. I think they're repulsive. I think we agree on that. To answer your question in a different way, I suppose the solution may just be to give people a test to see if they have a tumor that, if removed, may cure them. If they don't, prosecute. If no other medical condition has been found to conclusively cause aberrant behavior of this type then the theory that one might is probably legally irrelevant. Here's the COW, as I see it: In many jurisdictions, one can be found not guilty due to mental defect or disease (or words to that effect), i.e., what is often referred to as the insanity defense. Let's suppose a pedophile, or a murderer, or a insert heinous crime of your choice here is found to have a brain tumor (or other clearly diagnosable organic brain dysfunction). Do we: (a) declare him not guilty due to his illness and let him go because legally he is not guilty of anything? (b) require that he either serve his full time in prison or submit to treatment for the illness, and if the illness cannot be treated or treatment does not change his behavior, then put him in prison to serve his full sentence or commit him to a secure mental institution for at least the same amount of time, or until such time as he does respond to treatment? (BTW, how do you tell for sure if a pedophile has really been cured except by letting him out and observing that he does not re-offend?) (c) other (specify). While I would be inclined toward something like (b) (IANAL so don't yell at me if I have put some of it incorrectly), I expect that many will say either (1) He's been found not guilty, so legally he should be free to go, or (2) Mentally ill people should not be imprisoned like common criminals, or something of that sort. Do we need to change the laws to allow for a verdict of guilty but insane which would require the person to be confined for the protection of society until he is no longer a danger and receive treatment if any is available? In the latter case, do we make these people guinea pigs for experimental treatments which may or may not cure their problem (although there certainly are treatments which will cause them to no longer be a danger to society: a radical prefrontal lobotomy, frex, though the result of such an extreme treatment may well be that they will have to be institutionalized for the rest of their lives because they are no longer able to function well enough to care for themselves), or what? Jon ROU Insert Disclaimer Here See below. -- Ronn! :) IMPORTANT: This email is intended for the use of the individual addressee(s) above and may contain information that is confidential, privileged or unsuitable for overly sensitive persons with low self-esteem, no sense of humo(u)r or irrational
Re: Scouted: Surgery on Brain Tumor 'cures' pedophile
Ronn! wrote: So what do we do to protect society from those who commit heinous crimes where either (1) no organic problem can be found, (2) an organic problem is found, but we don't know how to treat it, or (3) an organic problem is found and treated, but the behavior does not change? Was this covered to some extent by Brin in the early Uplift novels, with the Probationers? It's been a *long* time since I read those, does anyone have them handy? Reggie Bautista On-Topic Maru _ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Scouted: Surgery on Brain Tumor 'cures' pedophile
Jon Gabriel wrote: I suppose the solution may just be to give people a test to see if they have a tumor that, if removed, may cure them. If they don't, prosecute. If no other medical condition has been found to conclusively cause aberrant behavior of this type then the theory that one might is probably legally irrelevant. Surely we prosecute regardless. The victim at least deserves a trial be called, and the accused be judged by a jury of his peers. If those peers determine that he did it but it wasn't his fault, then let the punishment reflect that. To not prosecute is to say that it was OK, to reduce or remove the penalty is to say that it was wrong, but the accused had no ability to alter his actions (either by recognising the wrongfulness, or by resisting the temptation) I'd still want a probation or parole system for the accused after surgery to ensure he wasn't just taking advantage of the built-in get out of jail free card. Cheers Russell C. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
