Re: ATTN: All military/former military on the list, was Re: Smirking right-wing git
--- Ronn!Blankenship [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A question for all the members or former members of the military on the list: do you consider yourself more right or left wing? My own experience in the military suggests that for the most part professional military members tend to be more conservative than liberal, though it frequently seems that those labels are so abused that they are almost meaningless. Thus my feeling is that in the current volunteer military service we have in the US, most of the people who sign up, and particularly those who stay in, probably represent the right wing more than the left wing. (If anyone can show me that I may be wrong in this feeling, I would appreciate being corrected.) Don't have the citation close to hand, but TISS (The Triangle Institute of Security Studies) did a big survey on this a few years ago. Michael Desch - now of Dartmouth, then of Duke - actually wrote a paper on the Conservatization of the military. Basically, the liberal Democrat military officer no longer exists. Something like 90% of officers in the armed forces either characterize _themselves_ as conservative Republicans or, if they don't, have views that accord very closely with those of conservative Republicans - very often those of the religious right. (The role of evangelical Christianity in the post-Vietnam recreation of the US Armed Forces is one of the great untold stories of the 1970s, 80s, and 90s). This is a radical contrast to the 1950s, when the military was essentially non-partisan. I believe (and argued with Desch about this) that this is because the Democratic Party went - in his delightful phrase - looney tunes during and after the Vietnam War, rejecting the military and, even more importantly, its values, and the military responded in kind. Desch didn't agree, but didn't have an alternative reason either that I recall. I may be doing him a disservice - he hadn't finalized his paper when I saw it. Sam Huntington, in _The Solider and the State_ (still the best book about military-civil relations ever written, although Janowitz's _The American Soldier_ is close and, amusingly enough, comes to almost exactly opposite conclusions) argued that professional militaries are, by their very nature, conservative, and as such uncomfortable with the ideals and ideologies of modern liberal democracy. Liberalism, he said (I paraphrase, and it's 2:00am, so I'm probably doing it wrong), stunningly successful in domestic politics, fails catastrophically in international politics, because the assumptions that underlie it do not operate in the international arena. The military, forced to operate in the Hobbesian world outside liberal society, is thus forced to be conservative if it wishes to be effective. A much better summary of these ideas is in The Atlantic's profile of Huntington, which you can find pretty easily on-line. = Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] Freedom is not free http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: ATTN: All military/former military on the list, was Re: Smirking right-wing git
A question for all the members or former members of the military on the list: do you consider yourself more right or left wing? My own experience in the military suggests that for the most part professional military members tend to be more conservative than liberal, though it frequently seems that those labels are so abused that they are almost meaningless. Thus my feeling is that in the current volunteer military service we have in the US, most of the people who sign up, and particularly those who stay in, probably represent the right wing more than the left wing. (If anyone can show me that I may be wrong in this feeling, I would appreciate being corrected.) I've always considered myself to be a moderate Democrat. Damon. = Damon Agretto [EMAIL PROTECTED] Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum. http://www.geocities.com/garrand.geo/index.html Now Building: __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: ATTN: All military/former military on the list, was Re: Smirking right-wing git
On Apr 13, 2004, at 10:24 AM, Damon Agretto wrote: A question for all the members or former members of the military on the list: do you consider yourself more right or left wing? My own experience in the military suggests that for the most part professional military members tend to be more conservative than liberal, though it frequently seems that those labels are so abused that they are almost meaningless. Thus my feeling is that in the current volunteer military service we have in the US, most of the people who sign up, and particularly those who stay in, probably represent the right wing more than the left wing. (If anyone can show me that I may be wrong in this feeling, I would appreciate being corrected.) I've always considered myself to be a moderate Democrat. Damon. I consider myself now, before and during my military service to be a Cold War liberal. john ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Smirking right-wing git
At 09:12 PM 4/12/04, Tom Beck wrote: Made the mistake of watching Sean Hannity and his inane smirking grin listening to some conscientious objector to the war in Iraq. I guess you don't have to treat your guests with even a minimum of respect when you're self-righteously ordained by God to know the Truth. Bleagh. Worth defeating Bush just to see this vile, immature scumbag have to eat some crow for a change. Since I didn't get to see it (I don't get that here, and besides, I got home from class about the time you wrote your message, it looks like) what was said? -- Ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Smirking right-wing git
Since I didn't get to see it (I don't get that here, and besides, I got home from class about the time you wrote your message, it looks like) what was said? I didn't see much of it, and I don't remember specifics. Some guy from something called Conscience International was on talking about the wrongness of putting American soldiers at risk. Throughout, Hannity was smirking like some wise old person listening to an idiot prattle on, clearly not listening to a word the guy said. Then he spoke, like a sage dealing with childish, foolish savages, saying something like in a war against terrorism, some people are going to have to fight and die. At that point I turned off (I was only watching during a commercial break in something else I had been watching). But for the right wing, it's always someone else who fights and dies; it wasn't and it isn't ever them. And I know that by itself does not necessarily invalidate the policy of fighting or the fighting itself. But a bit of humility is in order for people who have never themselves been in harm's way. For Sean Hannity to assume such an air of superiority over people objecting to the war when he himself is 10,000 miles away from it is sickening. For all these right wing chickenhawks to berate anyone who objects to the war is disgusting. Especially when the war in Iraq is a distraction from fighting terrorism and may even be contributing to an increase in terrorism. Supporting the war is one thing. But don't lie about it and don't attack the motives of those who oppose it. For one thing, it's not going so well that opposition is clearly wrong-headed. And a lot of the problems we're facing were foreseen by many of the opponents but were ignored or dismissed by the Rumsfeld-Cheney-Safire drumbeaters. -- Tom Beck my LiveJournal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/tomfodw/ I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never thought I'd see the last. - Dr. Jerry Pournelle -- ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
ATTN: All military/former military on the list, was Re: Smirking right-wing git
At 10:10 PM 4/12/04, Tom Beck wrote: Since I didn't get to see it (I don't get that here, and besides, I got home from class about the time you wrote your message, it looks like) what was said? I didn't see much of it, and I don't remember specifics. Some guy from something called Conscience International was on talking about the wrongness of putting American soldiers at risk. Was he against all wars, or just the current action in Iraq? Did he give any specific reasons that you recall for being against the current action in the time that you watched? Throughout, Hannity was smirking like some wise old person listening to an idiot prattle on, clearly not listening to a word the guy said. Then he spoke, like a sage dealing with childish, foolish savages, saying something like in a war against terrorism, some people are going to have to fight and die. At that point I turned off (I was only watching during a commercial break in something else I had been watching). But for the right wing, it's always someone else who fights and dies; it wasn't and it isn't ever them. A question for all the members or former members of the military on the list: do you consider yourself more right or left wing? My own experience in the military suggests that for the most part professional military members tend to be more conservative than liberal, though it frequently seems that those labels are so abused that they are almost meaningless. Thus my feeling is that in the current volunteer military service we have in the US, most of the people who sign up, and particularly those who stay in, probably represent the right wing more than the left wing. (If anyone can show me that I may be wrong in this feeling, I would appreciate being corrected.) And I know that by itself does not necessarily invalidate the policy of fighting or the fighting itself. But a bit of humility is in order for people who have never themselves been in harm's way. For Sean Hannity Anyone know if Sean Hannity is a veteran? (I have no idea.) FWIW, I occasionally hear some of Sean Hannity's radio program while on the way to class (the alternatives at that hour being a couple of local sports call-in shows) but I would not necessarily consider myself a fan: I don't think I've ever listened to his show when I'm at home, frex. to assume such an air of superiority over people objecting to the war when he himself is 10,000 miles away from it is sickening. For all these right wing chickenhawks to berate anyone who objects to the war is disgusting. I personally don't berate everyone who objects to the war. Some objections are quite legitimate. Others, though. do seem (to me, at least) to simply boil down to a intense dislike of the fact that GWB is in the White House, and those objections I tend to find less credible. Especially when the war in Iraq is a distraction from fighting terrorism and may even be contributing to an increase in terrorism. Supporting the war is one thing. But don't lie about it and don't attack the motives of those who oppose it. For one thing, it's not going so well that opposition is clearly wrong-headed. And a lot of the problems we're facing were foreseen by many of the opponents but were ignored or dismissed by the Rumsfeld-Cheney-Safire drumbeaters. -- Tom Beck my LiveJournal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/tomfodw/ I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never thought I'd see the last. - Dr. Jerry Pournelle -- -- Ronn! :) Probably right of center, definitely former military (USAF officer) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
