Re: [Brmlab] Fabtotum
Mario, are you aware of http://www.diypraha.cz/, here is their English site: http://www.diypraha.cz/en/ ? Tim -- Původní zpráva -- Od: Mario Lombardo Komu: Brmlab: Hackerspace Prague, (main discussion) Datum: 10. 3. 2015 19:25:50 Předmět: [Brmlab] Fabtotum " Dear BRMlab, I have expressed interest many times, both publicly and privately, that it is vital to have reliable and quality tools. At the time of the Fabtotum crowd funding campaign, a year or so ago, the 3D printer we had in the lab needed constant tuning, we didn't have an optical 3D scanner, nor a milling machine. A member even said it goes against the spirits of a hackerspace to buy such a tool. Yet back then, in my experience with using the 3D printer it proved it wasn't a reliable tool nor a quality tool of its rank. Even so, almost a year later, we still don't have an optical scanner nor milling machine. Does our 3D equal in quality of the Fabtotum? If not, who will take the time to improve it or make a new and better one? Will we approve such an expense and time? As of now, we still have a down larger 3D printer, so what of it? The downfall of poor quality tools is that they slow progress and stifle creativity. As hackers and makers, we have enough obstacles to overcome than let a tool deceive or encumber vital steps in a process or discovery-- testing and measuring equipment at the top and prototyping equipment second- -both vital nonetheless. My idea was to help us. b00lean expressed interest in such vision and so did a small minority, so a small pool of us gathered and helped purchase a future unit. Sadly, much time has passed, even more than anticipated, yet the question remains, would BRMlab desire, care, and utilize such a tool? At this time, I would like to hear more voting and financial support than voiced we, the original party. For if not, then it can go with General Bytes because b00 lean seems to like it. If any members are bashing the tool, I would be curious if they have firsthand experience? If not, part of the effort in acquiring the Fabtotum was that "it could" do all of the proposed feats it its capacity. We believed just as we might believe in something else, like purchasing the SDR and finally much later a member is able to make an incredible GSM device. As a consensus, however BRMlab votes this evening, I will __abstain__ and hope for this tool or some tool some BRMlab collective deem worthy of our respect, care, and use. We need better tools, and I was hoping for this one. Just think about us and not your ego--to build one as a hack project. That has always been an option, but can you rely on what it makes? A good tool will deliver. A hack will mostly deliver an accomplishment or proof-of- concept that is itself. That's wonderful but wildly different from the mark of a tool. Both have merit, but whether both should occupy the same desktop?... Hmm. I've made both, and the one thing that annoys me in making a tool, is that I've got to be bitching accurate in every way, letting no computation be an error or succumb to its duplicity tenfold. Otherwise, I'd keep a rubbish bin nearby my knee and simply push the craft to its demise... "Do over!" On Monday, March 9, 2015, b00lean wrote: " Ahoj, Minuly tyden v pondeli dorazil Fabtotum ( http://www.fabtotum.com/ (http://www.fabtotum.com/) ), ktery jsem objednal a zaplatil 10.10.2013 (celkem 21 463,67 CZK ) Zatim jsem ho nerozbalil. V rijnu 2013 jsme se dohodli, ze se na fabtotum slozime a moje firma doplati zbytek ( http://brmlab.cz/project/fabtotum (http://brmlab.cz/project/fabtotum) ) K prispevku se prihlasili nasledujici: mario 1000 CZK pasky 1000 CZK pborky 1000 CZK JoHnY 1000 CZK niekt0 1000 CZK Ondrej Mikle 1000 CZK Eliáš 1000 CZK b00lean doplati zbytek. Na zminovany ucet(na strance) dorazila pouze jedna platba ( 1 000 Kč - Ján Teluch - nevim nick asi JoHnY) Nekteri ze zminovanych mi dali penize hotove (vubec uz nevim kdo ale asi jen 2 lide) nebo je vubec neposlali. Od doby objednani Fabtotum a jeho doruceni se zmenilo hodne predevsim vsak to, ze jiz nejsem clenem brmlabu, nemam do neho pristup a je mi lito zaplatit za fabtotum tolik ze sveho a nechat ho v brmlabu k "opotrebeni/ rozbiti" lidmi, kteri na nej neprispeli a tudiz k nemu ani nebudou pristupovat s patricnou odpovednosti. Navrhuji nasledujici reseni: A. Fabtotum si ponecham a vyplatim ty, kteri prispeli. B. Brmlab odkoupi Fabtotum za zbytkovou cenu ze svych penez (zaplati zbytek me). C. Najde se v radach brmlabu dostatek dalsich lidi, kteri na pristroj prispeji tak aby brmlab nemusel nic odkupovat, nebo brmlab doplati mene. Prosim o vase konstruktivni reakce a komentare, b00lean " -- >>sent from mobile<< ___ Brmlab mailing list Brmlab@brmlab.cz https://brmlab.cz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/brmlab";___ Br
Re: [Brmlab] Fabtotum
-- Původní zpráva -- Od: Petr Baudis Komu: Brmlab: Hackerspace Prague (main discussion) Datum: 11. 3. 2015 14:51:42 Předmět: Re: [Brmlab] Fabtotum >FYI, if you had a point to make, it would have worked better if it >didn't span 248 lines. I think that polls are a better way of determining opinion than mail. My purpos was not to share an opinion, but to share a line of reasoning. On Tue, Mar 10, 2015 at 10:44:09PM +0100, timothyho...@seznam.cz wrote: ..snip.. >> In the end, I would have invested hundreds of thousands of Euros in research >> and development, I would have outside investors to please, and there would >> be no way that my low cost haptic computer system would be anything like low >> cost, and it certainly would not be open source. > Your metaphore works if brmlab would be going to do the same. > In fact, Fabtotum is *very* *very* cheap for what it should be doing. > (Suspiciously cheap, some would point out.) I was reacting to Mario's general sentiment that we should aquire tools, not to the Fabtotum specifically. I agree that the Fabtotum is very cheep and perhaps interesting in it's cheepness. >> I agree with you generally, that brmlab could use some more good tools. >> However, I wory that if we invest too heavilly in proprietary soloutions, >> brmlab will lose its value. Brmlab shouldn't exist to build captive >> comunities for companies like EagleCad who wish to get free work done by >> enthusiests. Brmlab should exist for its own purposes and for the purposes >> of promoting the DIY and open source communities as a whole. > Yet plenty of people in brmlab use eagle, because it's the best tool >for the job due to various factors. Some people don't want to make >certain compromises, which is fine, but others do. And it's not like >settling with using a CC-BY-NC licenced equipment is that awful >a compromise, compared to a completely proprietary tool. I agree that CC-BY-NC is not that awful, what is awful however, is the recent trend of companies claiming that not-so-open products are open. > Your argument would also work much better if there would be a bunch of > people working on some Fabtotum analogue in brmlab right now. I think > most people wouldn't even consider buying it then. But the choice is > *not* bought tool -- diy tool, it is bought tool -- no tool. Yes, but did we consider the possibility of purchasing the parts for one of the fully opensource routers if we are going to buy a router? Tim ___ Brmlab mailing list Brmlab@brmlab.cz https://brmlab.cz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/brmlab
Re: [Brmlab] Fabtotum
-- Původní zpráva -- Od: Petr Baudis Komu: Brmlab: Hackerspace Prague (main discussion) Datum: 11. 3. 2015 14:51:42 Předmět: Re: [Brmlab] Fabtotum "FYI, if you had a point to make, it would have worked better if it didn't span 248 lines. " I think that polls are a better way of determining opinion than mail. My purpos was not to share an opinion, but to share a line of reasoning. " On Tue, Mar 10, 2015 at 10:44:09PM +0100, timothyho...@seznam.cz wrote: ..snip.. > In the end, I would have invested hundreds of thousands of Euros in research > and development, I would have outside investors to please, and there would > be no way that my low cost haptic computer system would be anything like low > cost, and it certainly would not be open source. Your metaphore works if brmlab would be going to do the same. In fact, Fabtotum is *very* *very* cheap for what it should be doing. (Suspiciously cheap, some would point out.) " I was reacting to Mario's general sentiment that we should aquire tools, not to the Fabtotum specifically. I agree that the Fabtotum is very cheep and perhaps interesting in it's cheepness. " > I agree with you generally, that brmlab could use some more good tools. > However, I wory that if we invest too heavilly in proprietary soloutions, > brmlab will lose its value. Brmlab shouldn't exist to build captive > comunities for companies like EagleCad who wish to get free work done by > enthusiests. Brmlab should exist for its own purposes and for the purposes > of promoting the DIY and open source communities as a whole. Yet plenty of people in brmlab use eagle, because it's the best tool for the job due to various factors. Some people don't want to make certain compromises, which is fine, but others do. And it's not like settling with using a CC-BY-NC licenced equipment is that awful a compromise, compared to a completely proprietary tool. " I agree that CC-BY-NC is not that awful, what is awful however, is the recent trend of companies claiming that not-so-open products are open. " Your argument would also work much better if there would be a bunch of people working on some Fabtotum analogue in brmlab right now. I think most people wouldn't even consider buying it then. But the choice is *not* bought tool -- diy tool, it is bought tool -- no tool. " Yes, but did we consider the possibility of purchasing the parts for one of the fully opensource routers if we are going to buy a router? " -- Petr Baudis If you do not work on an important problem, it's unlikely you'll do important work. -- R. Hamming http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~robins/YouAndYourResearch.html ___ Brmlab mailing list Brmlab@brmlab.cz https://brmlab.cz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/brmlab";___ Brmlab mailing list Brmlab@brmlab.cz https://brmlab.cz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/brmlab
Re: [Brmlab] Fabtotum
FYI, if you had a point to make, it would have worked better if it didn't span 248 lines. On Tue, Mar 10, 2015 at 10:44:09PM +0100, timothyho...@seznam.cz wrote: ..snip.. > In the end, I would have invested hundreds of thousands of Euros in research > and development, I would have outside investors to please, and there would > be no way that my low cost haptic computer system would be anything like low > cost, and it certainly would not be open source. Your metaphore works if brmlab would be going to do the same. In fact, Fabtotum is *very* *very* cheap for what it should be doing. (Suspiciously cheap, some would point out.) > I agree with you generally, that brmlab could use some more good tools. > However, I wory that if we invest too heavilly in proprietary soloutions, > brmlab will lose its value. Brmlab shouldn't exist to build captive > comunities for companies like EagleCad who wish to get free work done by > enthusiests. Brmlab should exist for its own purposes and for the purposes > of promoting the DIY and open source communities as a whole. Yet plenty of people in brmlab use eagle, because it's the best tool for the job due to various factors. Some people don't want to make certain compromises, which is fine, but others do. And it's not like settling with using a CC-BY-NC licenced equipment is that awful a compromise, compared to a completely proprietary tool. Your argument would also work much better if there would be a bunch of people working on some Fabtotum analogue in brmlab right now. I think most people wouldn't even consider buying it then. But the choice is *not* bought tool -- diy tool, it is bought tool -- no tool. -- Petr Baudis If you do not work on an important problem, it's unlikely you'll do important work. -- R. Hamming http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~robins/YouAndYourResearch.html ___ Brmlab mailing list Brmlab@brmlab.cz https://brmlab.cz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/brmlab
Re: [Brmlab] Fabtotum
On 11 Mar 2015 09:47, wrote: > > Mario, > > I think for brmlab, a better choice would be something like this http://www.levneelektro.cz/p870329-naradi-proma-sk-550#zl1 it can mill anything, even steel. The only question is how to get it down the stairs ;). No. The real question is who will keep the machine in safe, working order, given how quickly can the brm people turn working things into trash, either by normal use or by losing important small parts or tools. Ax ___ Brmlab mailing list Brmlab@brmlab.cz https://brmlab.cz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/brmlab
Re: [Brmlab] Fabtotum
Mario, I think for brmlab, a better choice would be something like this http://www. levneelektro.cz/p870329-naradi-proma-sk-550#zl1 it can mill anything, even steel. The only question is how to get it down the stairs ;). Tim -- Původní zpráva -- Od: Mario Lombardo Komu: Brmlab: Hackerspace Prague, (main discussion) Datum: 10. 3. 2015 19:25:50 Předmět: [Brmlab] Fabtotum " Dear BRMlab, I have expressed interest many times, both publicly and privately, that it is vital to have reliable and quality tools. At the time of the Fabtotum crowd funding campaign, a year or so ago, the 3D printer we had in the lab needed constant tuning, we didn't have an optical 3D scanner, nor a milling machine. A member even said it goes against the spirits of a hackerspace to buy such a tool. Yet back then, in my experience with using the 3D printer it proved it wasn't a reliable tool nor a quality tool of its rank. Even so, almost a year later, we still don't have an optical scanner nor milling machine. Does our 3D equal in quality of the Fabtotum? If not, who will take the time to improve it or make a new and better one? Will we approve such an expense and time? As of now, we still have a down larger 3D printer, so what of it? The downfall of poor quality tools is that they slow progress and stifle creativity. As hackers and makers, we have enough obstacles to overcome than let a tool deceive or encumber vital steps in a process or discovery-- testing and measuring equipment at the top and prototyping equipment second- -both vital nonetheless. My idea was to help us. b00lean expressed interest in such vision and so did a small minority, so a small pool of us gathered and helped purchase a future unit. Sadly, much time has passed, even more than anticipated, yet the question remains, would BRMlab desire, care, and utilize such a tool? At this time, I would like to hear more voting and financial support than voiced we, the original party. For if not, then it can go with General Bytes because b00 lean seems to like it. If any members are bashing the tool, I would be curious if they have firsthand experience? If not, part of the effort in acquiring the Fabtotum was that "it could" do all of the proposed feats it its capacity. We believed just as we might believe in something else, like purchasing the SDR and finally much later a member is able to make an incredible GSM device. As a consensus, however BRMlab votes this evening, I will __abstain__ and hope for this tool or some tool some BRMlab collective deem worthy of our respect, care, and use. We need better tools, and I was hoping for this one. Just think about us and not your ego--to build one as a hack project. That has always been an option, but can you rely on what it makes? A good tool will deliver. A hack will mostly deliver an accomplishment or proof-of- concept that is itself. That's wonderful but wildly different from the mark of a tool. Both have merit, but whether both should occupy the same desktop?... Hmm. I've made both, and the one thing that annoys me in making a tool, is that I've got to be bitching accurate in every way, letting no computation be an error or succumb to its duplicity tenfold. Otherwise, I'd keep a rubbish bin nearby my knee and simply push the craft to its demise... "Do over!" On Monday, March 9, 2015, b00lean wrote: " Ahoj, Minuly tyden v pondeli dorazil Fabtotum ( http://www.fabtotum.com/ (http://www.fabtotum.com/) ), ktery jsem objednal a zaplatil 10.10.2013 (celkem 21 463,67 CZK ) Zatim jsem ho nerozbalil. V rijnu 2013 jsme se dohodli, ze se na fabtotum slozime a moje firma doplati zbytek ( http://brmlab.cz/project/fabtotum (http://brmlab.cz/project/fabtotum) ) K prispevku se prihlasili nasledujici: mario 1000 CZK pasky 1000 CZK pborky 1000 CZK JoHnY 1000 CZK niekt0 1000 CZK Ondrej Mikle 1000 CZK Eliáš 1000 CZK b00lean doplati zbytek. Na zminovany ucet(na strance) dorazila pouze jedna platba ( 1 000 Kč - Ján Teluch - nevim nick asi JoHnY) Nekteri ze zminovanych mi dali penize hotove (vubec uz nevim kdo ale asi jen 2 lide) nebo je vubec neposlali. Od doby objednani Fabtotum a jeho doruceni se zmenilo hodne predevsim vsak to, ze jiz nejsem clenem brmlabu, nemam do neho pristup a je mi lito zaplatit za fabtotum tolik ze sveho a nechat ho v brmlabu k "opotrebeni/ rozbiti" lidmi, kteri na nej neprispeli a tudiz k nemu ani nebudou pristupovat s patricnou odpovednosti. Navrhuji nasledujici reseni: A. Fabtotum si ponecham a vyplatim ty, kteri prispeli. B. Brmlab odkoupi Fabtotum za zbytkovou cenu ze svych penez (zaplati zbytek me). C. Najde se v radach brmlabu dostatek dalsich lidi, kteri na pristroj prispeji tak aby brmlab nemusel nic odkupovat, nebo brmlab doplati mene. Prosim o vase konstruktivni reakce a komentare, b00lean " -- >>sent from mobile<< ___ Brmlab mailing list Br
