Re: Accidental and clef change issue
I think the rule is thus. Clefs shall have no effect on accidentals and therefore notes after the clef change are altered by courtesy accidentals for ease of legibility or where the note occurs in a different octave which requires, in strict notation, its own accidental. On the reasoning that they, clefs, simply define where the pitches fall on the staff and no other information. I am pretty sure I have read that somewhere more authoritative than my cluttered head or the internets, but can't unfortunately cite the actual book. Shane On Wed, Jan 5, 2011 at 9:12 PM, Reinhold Kainhofer reinh...@kainhofer.com wrote: Am Dienstag, 28. Dezember 2010, um 15:44:22 schrieb Reinhold Kainhofer: Am Dienstag, 28. Dezember 2010, um 15:14:05 schrieb David Kastrup: Reinhold Kainhofer reinh...@kainhofer.com writes: I would be great, though, if anyone can find a published example of such a situation (most likely in e.g. cello/bassoon parts/scores, which frequently switch between bass and tenor clef). Edition Peters, piano excerpt by Brissler from Mozart Requiem, Confutatis. The g in the corni di bassotto entry is not even in the same octave, and still gets a natural. Also, in the Bärenreiter piano reduction of Bach's Christmas oratorio, measure 7 of the Choral Nr. 23 (Wir singen dir), p.72 of Bärenreiter BA 5014a. There is a dis' in treble clef, followed by a d in bass clef. That d gets a natural cancellation. I have now also looked at several cello parts of my girlfriend. For example, in Dvorak's cello concerto (1955, Schott edition, Revision by Enrico Mainardi) there is the following image (notice the e natural after the clef with the e flat before the clef): http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/RILU4L-9yytXkwELD607_FgxyXiAQ8P3wVPB2tHCMdU?feat=directlink Also, in Schumann's cello concerto there is the following measure (the last measure in the image has two d, where the natural is repeated after the clef!): http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/A1Nm3cUd0o4W28xaJx001VgxyXiAQ8P3wVPB2tHCMdU?feat=directlink So, it seems there is no clear rule that a clef cancels all accidentals in the current measure so far. But most of the time, the accidental is given as some kind of cautinary/courtesy accidental. Cheers, Reinhold -- -- Reinhold Kainhofer, reinh...@kainhofer.com, http://reinhold.kainhofer.com/ * Financial Actuarial Math., Vienna Univ. of Technology, Austria * http://www.fam.tuwien.ac.at/, DVR: 0005886 * LilyPond, Music typesetting, http://www.lilypond.org ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-u...@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user ___ bug-lilypond mailing list bug-lilypond@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/bug-lilypond
Re: Accidental and clef change issue
Am Dienstag, 28. Dezember 2010, um 15:44:22 schrieb Reinhold Kainhofer: Am Dienstag, 28. Dezember 2010, um 15:14:05 schrieb David Kastrup: Reinhold Kainhofer reinh...@kainhofer.com writes: I would be great, though, if anyone can find a published example of such a situation (most likely in e.g. cello/bassoon parts/scores, which frequently switch between bass and tenor clef). Edition Peters, piano excerpt by Brissler from Mozart Requiem, Confutatis. The g in the corni di bassotto entry is not even in the same octave, and still gets a natural. Also, in the Bärenreiter piano reduction of Bach's Christmas oratorio, measure 7 of the Choral Nr. 23 (Wir singen dir), p.72 of Bärenreiter BA 5014a. There is a dis' in treble clef, followed by a d in bass clef. That d gets a natural cancellation. I have now also looked at several cello parts of my girlfriend. For example, in Dvorak's cello concerto (1955, Schott edition, Revision by Enrico Mainardi) there is the following image (notice the e natural after the clef with the e flat before the clef): http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/RILU4L-9yytXkwELD607_FgxyXiAQ8P3wVPB2tHCMdU?feat=directlink Also, in Schumann's cello concerto there is the following measure (the last measure in the image has two d, where the natural is repeated after the clef!): http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/A1Nm3cUd0o4W28xaJx001VgxyXiAQ8P3wVPB2tHCMdU?feat=directlink So, it seems there is no clear rule that a clef cancels all accidentals in the current measure so far. But most of the time, the accidental is given as some kind of cautinary/courtesy accidental. Cheers, Reinhold -- -- Reinhold Kainhofer, reinh...@kainhofer.com, http://reinhold.kainhofer.com/ * Financial Actuarial Math., Vienna Univ. of Technology, Austria * http://www.fam.tuwien.ac.at/, DVR: 0005886 * LilyPond, Music typesetting, http://www.lilypond.org ___ bug-lilypond mailing list bug-lilypond@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/bug-lilypond
Re: Accidental and clef change issue
On 4 January 2011 00:35, James Bailey james.lilyp...@googlemail.com wrote: It seems, at least according to section 1.1.3 on accidentals, that this is intended behavior: default This is the default typesetting behavior. It corresponds to eighteenth-century common practice: accidentals are remembered to the end of the measure in which they occur and only in their own octave. Thus, in the example below, no natural signs are printed before the b in the second measure or the last c: No, this is not the same case. In NR 1.1.3 there is no clef change. And according to this rule that accidentals are remembered to the end of the measure in which they occur and only in their own octave the c-natural in the second measure of my code _MUST_ be printed, because it is in the same octave as the first note of the measure (cis2) although written in a different clef. Otherwise (as it is now, i.e. without printed natural) we should conclude that the second note is a c-sharp also. accidentals are remembered to the end of the measure in which they occur and only in their own octave _This is not the case_ We want a c-natural: the natural _MUST_ be printed. Cheers, Xavier -- Xavier Scheuer x.sche...@gmail.com ___ bug-lilypond mailing list bug-lilypond@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/bug-lilypond
Re: Accidental and clef change issue
On Dec 28, 2010, at 11:53 AM, Xavier Scheuer wrote:
Hi!
This has been reported on the French user mailing list.
In the following code the c-natural is not printed if there is a clef
change in the middle of the measure.
\relative c' {
\clef bass cis2 c
\clef tenor cis2 \clef bass c % natural is not printed!!
\clef bass cis2 \clef tenor c
}
I do not know what say references like Ross, Read about this but I do
not think this should be the correct behaviour.
IMHO this is not what a musician (and a user) expect:
if we have a c-sharp and then a c-natural (at the same octave)
_in the same measure_, then the natural __MUST__ be printed!
This is also against what is said in the regtest
‘accidental-clef-change.ly’: Accidentals are reset for clef changes
(note that this regtest works fine but the reported code does not).
Could you investigate this?
Thanks in advance.
Cheers,
Xavier
PS: The only simple workaround is to use
#(set-accidental-style 'piano)
--
Xavier Scheuer x.sche...@gmail.com
It seems, at least according to section 1.1.3 on accidentals, that this is
intended behavior:
default
This is the default typesetting behavior. It corresponds to eighteenth-century
common practice: accidentals are remembered to the end of the measure in which
they occur and only in their own octave. Thus, in the example below, no natural
signs are printed before the b in the second measure or the last c:
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Accidental and clef change issue
Hi!
This has been reported on the French user mailing list.
In the following code the c-natural is not printed if there is a clef
change in the middle of the measure.
\relative c' {
\clef bass cis2 c
\clef tenor cis2 \clef bass c % natural is not printed!!
\clef bass cis2 \clef tenor c
}
I do not know what say references like Ross, Read about this but I do
not think this should be the correct behaviour.
IMHO this is not what a musician (and a user) expect:
if we have a c-sharp and then a c-natural (at the same octave)
_in the same measure_, then the natural __MUST__ be printed!
This is also against what is said in the regtest
‘accidental-clef-change.ly’: Accidentals are reset for clef changes
(note that this regtest works fine but the reported code does not).
Could you investigate this?
Thanks in advance.
Cheers,
Xavier
PS: The only simple workaround is to use
#(set-accidental-style 'piano)
--
Xavier Scheuer x.sche...@gmail.com
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Re: Accidental and clef change issue
Hello,
- Original Message -
From: Xavier Scheuer x.sche...@gmail.com
To: bug-lilypond bug-lilypond@gnu.org; lilypond-user
lilypond-u...@gnu.org
Cc: Philhar philhar1...@orange.fr
Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2010 10:53 AM
Subject: Accidental and clef change issue
Hi!
This has been reported on the French user mailing list.
In the following code the c-natural is not printed if there is a clef
change in the middle of the measure.
\relative c' {
\clef bass cis2 c
\clef tenor cis2 \clef bass c % natural is not printed!!
\clef bass cis2 \clef tenor c
}
I do not know what say references like Ross, Read about this but I do
not think this should be the correct behaviour.
IMHO this is not what a musician (and a user) expect:
if we have a c-sharp and then a c-natural (at the same octave)
_in the same measure_, then the natural __MUST__ be printed!
This is also against what is said in the regtest
‘accidental-clef-change.ly’: Accidentals are reset for clef changes
(note that this regtest works fine but the reported code does not).
Could you investigate this?
Thanks in advance.
Cheers,
Xavier
PS: The only simple workaround is to use
#(set-accidental-style 'piano)
--
Xavier Scheuer x.sche...@gmail.com
It's doing what I would expect from reading the regtest - i.e. - when there
is a clef change, the accidentals are reset to that which you'd expect from
the key. Therefore, in your example we return to C major, and so there's no
need to print the accidental. I'd welcome other thoughts as to whether this
is correct, though.
--
Phil Holmes
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Re: Accidental and clef change issue
Phil Holmes m...@philholmes.net writes:
\relative c' {
\clef bass cis2 c
\clef tenor cis2 \clef bass c % natural is not printed!!
\clef bass cis2 \clef tenor c
}
Could you _please_ _never_ write an answer or comment in the _signature_
of the original posting? Sensible mailreaders don't quote the signature
when replying, cutting away all of your content.
Now to your comment:
It's doing what I would expect from reading the regtest - i.e. - when
there is a clef change, the accidentals are reset to that which you'd
expect from the key. Therefore, in your example we return to C major,
and so there's no need to print the accidental. I'd welcome other
thoughts as to whether this is correct, though.
I don't think it is correct. If you set the above with \key g\major,
you will notice that the key signature is _not_ repeated with a clef
change. So there is no visual or logical reason to assume accidentals
are reset. If that was the underlying assumption for a clef change,
the key signature would be repeated.
--
David Kastrup
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Re: Accidental and clef change issue
David Kastrup d...@gnu.org wrote in message
news:87ei92oxo3@lola.goethe.zz...
Phil Holmes m...@philholmes.net writes:
\relative c' {
\clef bass cis2 c
\clef tenor cis2 \clef bass c % natural is not printed!!
\clef bass cis2 \clef tenor c
}
Could you _please_ _never_ write an answer or comment in the _signature_
of the original posting? Sensible mailreaders don't quote the signature
when replying, cutting away all of your content.
Apologies. As you're probably aware, I'm a Windows man, and some postings
don't quote properly using my mailreader. As a result, If I want all the
signs there, I have to put them in by hand. In this case, I didn't bother.
Now to your comment:
It's doing what I would expect from reading the regtest - i.e. - when
there is a clef change, the accidentals are reset to that which you'd
expect from the key. Therefore, in your example we return to C major,
and so there's no need to print the accidental. I'd welcome other
thoughts as to whether this is correct, though.
I don't think it is correct. If you set the above with \key g\major,
you will notice that the key signature is _not_ repeated with a clef
change. So there is no visual or logical reason to assume accidentals
are reset. If that was the underlying assumption for a clef change,
the key signature would be repeated.
So I'm confused as to what the regtest text cited means. It
(accidental-clef-change.ly) says Accidentals are reset for clef changes.
--
Phil Holmes
Bug Squad
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Re: Accidental and clef change issue
Phil Holmes m...@philholmes.net writes:
David Kastrup d...@gnu.org wrote in message
news:87ei92oxo3@lola.goethe.zz...
Phil Holmes m...@philholmes.net writes:
\relative c' {
\clef bass cis2 c
\clef tenor cis2 \clef bass c % natural is not printed!!
\clef bass cis2 \clef tenor c
}
Could you _please_ _never_ write an answer or comment in the _signature_
of the original posting? Sensible mailreaders don't quote the signature
when replying, cutting away all of your content.
Apologies. As you're probably aware, I'm a Windows man, and some
postings don't quote properly using my mailreader.
I am sure that there are sensible configurations available also for
Windows mailreasers.
As a result, If I want all the signs there, I have to put them in by
hand. In this case, I didn't bother.
You should at the very least delete the signature marker (-- on a
line of its own).
Now to your comment:
It's doing what I would expect from reading the regtest - i.e. - when
there is a clef change, the accidentals are reset to that which you'd
expect from the key. Therefore, in your example we return to C major,
and so there's no need to print the accidental. I'd welcome other
thoughts as to whether this is correct, though.
I don't think it is correct. If you set the above with \key g\major,
you will notice that the key signature is _not_ repeated with a clef
change. So there is no visual or logical reason to assume
accidentals are reset. If that was the underlying assumption for a
clef change, the key signature would be repeated.
So I'm confused as to what the regtest text cited means. It
(accidental-clef-change.ly) says Accidentals are reset for clef
changes.
Which is likely the intent. It is still not proper in my opinion. I
would suppose that a conservative approach would be to mark all
non-signature accidentals in force at the time of the clef change in a
manner that will cause a (sometimes cautionary) accidental to be printed
regardless of whether the next note on the previously
accidental-equipped is in-signature or not.
That's sort of a half-reset of accidentals: it sets all non-signature
accidentals basically to unknown.
--
David Kastrup
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Re: Accidental and clef change issue
Am Dienstag, 28. Dezember 2010, um 14:23:14 schrieb Phil Holmes:
David Kastrup d...@gnu.org wrote in message
I don't think it is correct. If you set the above with \key g\major,
you will notice that the key signature is _not_ repeated with a clef
change. So there is no visual or logical reason to assume accidentals
are reset. If that was the underlying assumption for a clef change,
the key signature would be repeated.
So I'm confused as to what the regtest text cited means. It
(accidental-clef-change.ly) says Accidentals are reset for clef changes.
I couldn't really find anything about accidentals in combination with clef
changes in Stone or Read. The only thing that might apply is in Stone (p.54,
item D. At Clef Changes:
If a clef changes withing a measure and the same note occurs before and after
the clef change, the accidental must be repeated:
(Example in lilypond-notation:)
\relative c'' { \time 2/4 \clef treble a8[( cis,]) \clef bass cis[( e,]) }
In that example, the cis after the clef change gets a sharp.
However, this example is only about repeating an accidental, not about whether
all previous accidentals are actually reset and no natural is required.
As a musician, I would definiely appreciate if the natural sign is displayed,
just to make it clear that it is a c and not a cis.
I would be great, though, if anyone can find a published example of such a
situation (most likely in e.g. cello/bassoon parts/scores, which frequently
switch between bass and tenor clef).
Cheers,
Reinhold
--
--
Reinhold Kainhofer, reinh...@kainhofer.com, http://reinhold.kainhofer.com/
* Financial Actuarial Math., Vienna Univ. of Technology, Austria
* http://www.fam.tuwien.ac.at/, DVR: 0005886
* LilyPond, Music typesetting, http://www.lilypond.org
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Re: Accidental and clef change issue
Reinhold Kainhofer reinh...@kainhofer.com writes: Am Dienstag, 28. Dezember 2010, um 14:23:14 schrieb Phil Holmes: David Kastrup d...@gnu.org wrote in message I don't think it is correct. If you set the above with \key g\major, you will notice that the key signature is _not_ repeated with a clef change. So there is no visual or logical reason to assume accidentals are reset. If that was the underlying assumption for a clef change, the key signature would be repeated. So I'm confused as to what the regtest text cited means. It (accidental-clef-change.ly) says Accidentals are reset for clef changes. I would be great, though, if anyone can find a published example of such a situation (most likely in e.g. cello/bassoon parts/scores, which frequently switch between bass and tenor clef). Edition Peters, piano excerpt by Brissler from Mozart Requiem, Confutatis. The g in the corni di bassotto entry is not even in the same octave, and still gets a natural. confutatis.pdf Description: Adobe PDF document -- David Kastrup ___ bug-lilypond mailing list bug-lilypond@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/bug-lilypond
Re: Accidental and clef change issue
David Kastrup d...@gnu.org wrote in message
news:87aajqowbn@lola.goethe.zz...
Phil Holmes m...@philholmes.net writes:
David Kastrup d...@gnu.org wrote in message
news:87ei92oxo3@lola.goethe.zz...
Phil Holmes m...@philholmes.net writes:
\relative c' {
\clef bass cis2 c
\clef tenor cis2 \clef bass c % natural is not printed!!
\clef bass cis2 \clef tenor c
}
Could you _please_ _never_ write an answer or comment in the _signature_
of the original posting? Sensible mailreaders don't quote the signature
when replying, cutting away all of your content.
Apologies. As you're probably aware, I'm a Windows man, and some
postings don't quote properly using my mailreader.
I am sure that there are sensible configurations available also for
Windows mailreasers.
Hey - you're talking about M$ software here! (FWIW I use the same software
for mail and news, - partly since the lilypond newsgroups are also mailing
lists. I don't want to change).
As a result, If I want all the signs there, I have to put them in by
hand. In this case, I didn't bother.
You should at the very least delete the signature marker (-- on a
line of its own).
Good tip.
Now to your comment:
It's doing what I would expect from reading the regtest - i.e. - when
there is a clef change, the accidentals are reset to that which you'd
expect from the key. Therefore, in your example we return to C major,
and so there's no need to print the accidental. I'd welcome other
thoughts as to whether this is correct, though.
I don't think it is correct. If you set the above with \key g\major,
you will notice that the key signature is _not_ repeated with a clef
change. So there is no visual or logical reason to assume
accidentals are reset. If that was the underlying assumption for a
clef change, the key signature would be repeated.
So I'm confused as to what the regtest text cited means. It
(accidental-clef-change.ly) says Accidentals are reset for clef
changes.
Which is likely the intent. It is still not proper in my opinion. I
would suppose that a conservative approach would be to mark all
non-signature accidentals in force at the time of the clef change in a
manner that will cause a (sometimes cautionary) accidental to be printed
regardless of whether the next note on the previously
accidental-equipped is in-signature or not.
That's sort of a half-reset of accidentals: it sets all non-signature
accidentals basically to unknown.
It seems to me that, unless there is a cast iron rule in the literature (and
it would appear not to be the case) then the best option might be to treat
the clef change as a bar-line and use cautionaries as appropriate.
--
Phil Holmes
Bug Squad
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Re: Accidental and clef change issue
Phil Holmes m...@philholmes.net writes: David Kastrup d...@gnu.org wrote in message news:87aajqowbn@lola.goethe.zz... Phil Holmes m...@philholmes.net writes: Apologies. As you're probably aware, I'm a Windows man, and some postings don't quote properly using my mailreader. I am sure that there are sensible configurations available also for Windows mailreasers. Hey - you're talking about M$ software here! (FWIW I use the same software for mail and news, - partly since the lilypond newsgroups are also mailing lists. I don't want to change). URL:http://oe-faq.de teaches German people how to stop annoying everybody else even while using OE or its successor Windows Mail. I should be surprised if similar advice would not be available for English-speaking people (anybody here on the list able to offer a similar link?). I don't understand how I get a crappy configuration shipped by factory and know it is supposed to imply It's ok if I don't bother changing it. If you like the software you get from Microsoft and want to stay with it, it is a one-time investment configuring it to behave sanely. -- David Kastrup ___ bug-lilypond mailing list bug-lilypond@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/bug-lilypond
Re: Accidental and clef change issue
I don't know about this one. Certainly, the accidental should be (and is)
printed. It's the naturals that aren't printed. Not even when changing octaves:
\new Staff \relative c' {
\time 6/4
\clef treble
cis dis fis
\clef tenor
c d f
\clef bass
cis dis fis
\clef treble
c' d f
}
Certainly, when changing octaves the accidental (sharp or flat), but I don't
recall for naturals.
On Dec 28, 2010, at 12:41 PM, Phil Holmes wrote:
Hello,
- Original Message - From: Xavier Scheuer x.sche...@gmail.com
To: bug-lilypond bug-lilypond@gnu.org; lilypond-user
lilypond-u...@gnu.org
Cc: Philhar philhar1...@orange.fr
Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2010 10:53 AM
Subject: Accidental and clef change issue
Hi!
This has been reported on the French user mailing list.
In the following code the c-natural is not printed if there is a clef
change in the middle of the measure.
\relative c' {
\clef bass cis2 c
\clef tenor cis2 \clef bass c % natural is not printed!!
\clef bass cis2 \clef tenor c
}
I do not know what say references like Ross, Read about this but I do
not think this should be the correct behaviour.
IMHO this is not what a musician (and a user) expect:
if we have a c-sharp and then a c-natural (at the same octave)
_in the same measure_, then the natural __MUST__ be printed!
This is also against what is said in the regtest
‘accidental-clef-change.ly’: Accidentals are reset for clef changes
(note that this regtest works fine but the reported code does not).
Could you investigate this?
Thanks in advance.
Cheers,
Xavier
PS: The only simple workaround is to use
#(set-accidental-style 'piano)
--
Xavier Scheuer x.sche...@gmail.com
It's doing what I would expect from reading the regtest - i.e. - when there
is a clef change, the accidentals are reset to that which you'd expect from
the key. Therefore, in your example we return to C major, and so there's no
need to print the accidental. I'd welcome other thoughts as to whether this
is correct, though.
--
Phil Holmes
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Re: Accidental and clef change issue
Am Dienstag, 28. Dezember 2010, um 15:14:05 schrieb David Kastrup: Reinhold Kainhofer reinh...@kainhofer.com writes: I would be great, though, if anyone can find a published example of such a situation (most likely in e.g. cello/bassoon parts/scores, which frequently switch between bass and tenor clef). Edition Peters, piano excerpt by Brissler from Mozart Requiem, Confutatis. The g in the corni di bassotto entry is not even in the same octave, and still gets a natural. Also, in the Bärenreiter piano reduction of Bach's Christmas oratorio, measure 7 of the Choral Nr. 23 (Wir singen dir), p.72 of Bärenreiter BA 5014a. There is a dis' in treble clef, followed by a d in bass clef. That d gets a natural cancellation. Cheers, Reinhold -- -- Reinhold Kainhofer, reinh...@kainhofer.com, http://reinhold.kainhofer.com/ * Financial Actuarial Math., Vienna Univ. of Technology, Austria * http://www.fam.tuwien.ac.at/, DVR: 0005886 * LilyPond, Music typesetting, http://www.lilypond.org attachment: Accidental_ClefChange.png___ bug-lilypond mailing list bug-lilypond@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/bug-lilypond
Re: Accidental and clef change issue
On Tue, Dec 28, 2010 at 1:28 PM, Michael Ellis michael.f.el...@gmail.com wrote: The Dover Edition of the Beethoven Sonatas, a reproduction of the 1923 Universal Edition (H. Schenker, ed.) has the attached in opus 27, no 2, second movement (Presto Agitato) mm 54,55. In the left hand of mm 54, the clef changes 4 times (bass, treble, bass, treble). The movement is in E major. There is a natural sign on the A immediately after the clef change. It's not clear, though, whether it's there to cancel the sharp on the space (implied by the preceding C-sharp in the bass clef) or whether it's simply a courtesy accidental that corresponds to the one in the right hand. I think it's most likely the latter. I agree that it's the latter case. This movement is (normally) performed at a very fast tempo where the time difference between the A sharps and A naturals is about one second (maybe less). The courtesy accidentals are lifesavers, especially if you are sight reading the movement at tempo. ;) Not related to your observation per se, but the movement is actually in C-sharp minor. Thanks, Patrick ___ bug-lilypond mailing list bug-lilypond@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/bug-lilypond
