Re: [Callers] Ladies

[Angela DeCarlis via Callers]

Hi Mary! A lot has already been written on the subject elsewhere, but the
summary of why Larks and Ravens has become a great set of terms is that
they correlate to the (L)eft and (R)ight positions at the end of a swing.
The syllable count is the same when compared to Gent and Lady (or Man and
Woman, for that matter), and the terms don't conflict with any dance
instructions (like how Lead and Follow would, especially if used to call
for English or Square Dancing).

Another great set of terms are Jets and Rubies, but I've found those labels
to be more arbitrary...the main advantage is that the words are
phonetically similar to Gents and Ladies...and I'm not sure whether or not
that's a good thing!

I hope this helps clarify things for you, and I thank you in advance for
keeping an open mind about trying these new, genderfree terms soon! In the
communities I've danced in, I can't tell you how much of a positive
difference these terms have made for individual dancers and for the
communities on the balance. But again, more on that can be read elsewhere,
and I hope to write in with more about my personal experiences as a caller
and dance organizer soon!

Angela

On Oct 14, 2017 2:09 PM, "Mary Collins"  wrote:

> Ahem Tom...that would be "gender" lolSeriously, being of the more
> mature (and I use that term loosely) set, I find all these new names for
> ROLES to be troublesome and tiresome.  Who exactly is a Lark & who exactly
> are Ravens?  Because quite frankly I have mental pictures of bothfrom
> literature and music and they could be as offending as gents & ladies or
> women & mennot to try to start anything here.  I am just trying to
> grasp something that seems to be just a wee bit beyond my reach.  Several
> of my fellow traveling dance friends (of similar age) do not understand
> these terms either.  Since I plan to be traveling and hopefully calling in
> "your community" sometime, I'd really like to get a handle on this.
>
> Mary "24" Collins
>
>
> 
>  Virus-free.
> www.avg.com
> 
> <#m_-3621280477174631412_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>
> “Life is not about waiting for the storms to pass ... it's about learning
> to dance in the rain!” ~ Unknown
>
> On Sat, Oct 14, 2017 at 12:15 PM, Tom Hinds  wrote:
>
>> Thanks Angela.  If only we could easily change our gender so we could
>> understand what it's like to be the other sex.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Oct 14, 2017, at 11:32 AM, Angela DeCarlis wrote:
>>
>> Tom, I had this conversation with Sue Rosen this summer. Women who belong
>> to the original Feminist generation (like Sue and, presumably, like Mary
>> and Martha above) were involved in a cultural movement to abolish the word
>> "Lady", along with its restrictive connotations, in favor of "Woman". The
>> latter label, I understand, was one which lent more power and ownership to
>> its wearers, and so was preferable. You could be however you were,
>> "ladylike" or not, and still be a Woman. (others, please chime in if I've
>> gotten anything wrong or missed anything!)
>>
>> My generation has an opposite problem: due to the modern-day Gender
>> Revolution, wherein we seek to abolish the gender dichotomy, terms like
>> "Woman" and "Man" feel too restrictive and denotative. "Lady" and "Gent"
>> feel almost more comfortable to some, since they are words that are
>> slightly more flexible, in some ways.
>>
>> One of the biggest problems for both groups, I think, is when the terms
>> are used interchangeably.
>>
>> This is one of my favorite things to think about when it comes to role
>> terms in dance today! I *love* our community's intergenerationality, and
>> learning about each other through conversations like this!
>>
>> Eventually I hope to get around to writing in about the changes I've seen
>> at BIDA since switching to Larks and Ravens at the beginning of the summer.
>> It's been truly remarkable!
>>
>> 'Til then,
>> Angela
>>
>> On Oct 14, 2017 9:26 AM, "Mary Collins via Callers" <
>> callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Martha, I dont recall this dance of which you speak. Could you share the
>>> true title and calls? Thanks! I also cringe over ladies (I don't fit that
>>> tradition) yet it is a good "place holder, ROLE identifer" for my
>>> communities.
>>>
>>> On Oct 14, 2017 9:06 AM, "Tom Hinds via Callers" <
>>> callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>
 I must have fallen asleep during a discussion of "ladies".  What's the
 issue?

 Sent from my iPad

 > On Oct 11, 2017, at 12:13 PM, Martha Wild via Callers <
 callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
 >
 > I’ve got a gypsy star dance (I actually call it “Star Wrong” and not
 just because of the g-word, but because if you say “gypsy star” 

Re: [Callers] Ladies

[Mary Collins via Callers]

Ahem Tom...that would be "gender" lolSeriously, being of the more
mature (and I use that term loosely) set, I find all these new names for
ROLES to be troublesome and tiresome.  Who exactly is a Lark & who exactly
are Ravens?  Because quite frankly I have mental pictures of bothfrom
literature and music and they could be as offending as gents & ladies or
women & mennot to try to start anything here.  I am just trying to
grasp something that seems to be just a wee bit beyond my reach.  Several
of my fellow traveling dance friends (of similar age) do not understand
these terms either.  Since I plan to be traveling and hopefully calling in
"your community" sometime, I'd really like to get a handle on this.

Mary "24" Collins


Virus-free.
www.avg.com

<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

“Life is not about waiting for the storms to pass ... it's about learning
to dance in the rain!” ~ Unknown

On Sat, Oct 14, 2017 at 12:15 PM, Tom Hinds  wrote:

> Thanks Angela.  If only we could easily change our gender so we could
> understand what it's like to be the other sex.
>
>
>
>
> On Oct 14, 2017, at 11:32 AM, Angela DeCarlis wrote:
>
> Tom, I had this conversation with Sue Rosen this summer. Women who belong
> to the original Feminist generation (like Sue and, presumably, like Mary
> and Martha above) were involved in a cultural movement to abolish the word
> "Lady", along with its restrictive connotations, in favor of "Woman". The
> latter label, I understand, was one which lent more power and ownership to
> its wearers, and so was preferable. You could be however you were,
> "ladylike" or not, and still be a Woman. (others, please chime in if I've
> gotten anything wrong or missed anything!)
>
> My generation has an opposite problem: due to the modern-day Gender
> Revolution, wherein we seek to abolish the gender dichotomy, terms like
> "Woman" and "Man" feel too restrictive and denotative. "Lady" and "Gent"
> feel almost more comfortable to some, since they are words that are
> slightly more flexible, in some ways.
>
> One of the biggest problems for both groups, I think, is when the terms
> are used interchangeably.
>
> This is one of my favorite things to think about when it comes to role
> terms in dance today! I *love* our community's intergenerationality, and
> learning about each other through conversations like this!
>
> Eventually I hope to get around to writing in about the changes I've seen
> at BIDA since switching to Larks and Ravens at the beginning of the summer.
> It's been truly remarkable!
>
> 'Til then,
> Angela
>
> On Oct 14, 2017 9:26 AM, "Mary Collins via Callers" <
> callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
>> Martha, I dont recall this dance of which you speak. Could you share the
>> true title and calls? Thanks! I also cringe over ladies (I don't fit that
>> tradition) yet it is a good "place holder, ROLE identifer" for my
>> communities.
>>
>> On Oct 14, 2017 9:06 AM, "Tom Hinds via Callers" <
>> callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>
>>> I must have fallen asleep during a discussion of "ladies".  What's the
>>> issue?
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>
>>> > On Oct 11, 2017, at 12:13 PM, Martha Wild via Callers <
>>> callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > I’ve got a gypsy star dance (I actually call it “Star Wrong” and not
>>> just because of the g-word, but because if you say “gypsy star” everybody
>>> starts to gypsy and NOT star, so I gave up on that confusing terminology).
>>> Haven’t seen another dance like it. The move from mad robin into the star
>>> wrong actually flows quite well.  I use men and women for roles, not
>>> genders. When I first started calling, we considered “lady” to be a four
>>> letter word - women’s movement and bra burning and all that. I still find
>>> it hard to use the word “lady” and not bristle. Times have changed, now
>>> people bristle at men and women. Go figure. I didn’t correct the “g-word”
>>> use on this version
>>> ___
>>> List Name:  Callers mailing list
>>> List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
>>> Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
>>>
>>
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>>
>>
>
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Re: [Callers] Ladies

[Tom Hinds via Callers]

Thanks Angela.  If only we could easily change our gender so we could  
understand what it's like to be the other sex.





On Oct 14, 2017, at 11:32 AM, Angela DeCarlis wrote:

Tom, I had this conversation with Sue Rosen this summer. Women who  
belong to the original Feminist generation (like Sue and,  
presumably, like Mary and Martha above) were involved in a cultural  
movement to abolish the word "Lady", along with its restrictive  
connotations, in favor of "Woman". The latter label, I understand,  
was one which lent more power and ownership to its wearers, and so  
was preferable. You could be however you were, "ladylike" or not,  
and still be a Woman. (others, please chime in if I've gotten  
anything wrong or missed anything!)


My generation has an opposite problem: due to the modern-day Gender  
Revolution, wherein we seek to abolish the gender dichotomy, terms  
like "Woman" and "Man" feel too restrictive and denotative. "Lady"  
and "Gent" feel almost more comfortable to some, since they are  
words that are slightly more flexible, in some ways.


One of the biggest problems for both groups, I think, is when the  
terms are used interchangeably.


This is one of my favorite things to think about when it comes to  
role terms in dance today! I *love* our community's  
intergenerationality, and learning about each other through  
conversations like this!


Eventually I hope to get around to writing in about the changes  
I've seen at BIDA since switching to Larks and Ravens at the  
beginning of the summer. It's been truly remarkable!


'Til then,
Angela

On Oct 14, 2017 9:26 AM, "Mary Collins via Callers"  
 wrote:
Martha, I dont recall this dance of which you speak. Could you  
share the true title and calls? Thanks! I also cringe over ladies  
(I don't fit that tradition) yet it is a good "place holder, ROLE  
identifer" for my communities.


On Oct 14, 2017 9:06 AM, "Tom Hinds via Callers"  
 wrote:
I must have fallen asleep during a discussion of "ladies".  What's  
the issue?


Sent from my iPad

> On Oct 11, 2017, at 12:13 PM, Martha Wild via Callers  
 wrote:

>
> I’ve got a gypsy star dance (I actually call it “Star Wrong” and  
not just because of the g-word, but because if you say “gypsy star”  
everybody starts to gypsy and NOT star, so I gave up on that  
confusing terminology). Haven’t seen another dance like it. The  
move from mad robin into the star wrong actually flows quite well.   
I use men and women for roles, not genders. When I first started  
calling, we considered “lady” to be a four letter word - women’s  
movement and bra burning and all that. I still find it hard to use  
the word “lady” and not bristle. Times have changed, now people  
bristle at men and women. Go figure. I didn’t correct the “g-word”  
use on this version

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Re: [Callers] Ladies

[Angela DeCarlis via Callers]

Tom, I had this conversation with Sue Rosen this summer. Women who belong
to the original Feminist generation (like Sue and, presumably, like Mary
and Martha above) were involved in a cultural movement to abolish the word
"Lady", along with its restrictive connotations, in favor of "Woman". The
latter label, I understand, was one which lent more power and ownership to
its wearers, and so was preferable. You could be however you were,
"ladylike" or not, and still be a Woman. (others, please chime in if I've
gotten anything wrong or missed anything!)

My generation has an opposite problem: due to the modern-day Gender
Revolution, wherein we seek to abolish the gender dichotomy, terms like
"Woman" and "Man" feel too restrictive and denotative. "Lady" and "Gent"
feel almost more comfortable to some, since they are words that are
slightly more flexible, in some ways.

One of the biggest problems for both groups, I think, is when the terms are
used interchangeably.

This is one of my favorite things to think about when it comes to role
terms in dance today! I *love* our community's intergenerationality, and
learning about each other through conversations like this!

Eventually I hope to get around to writing in about the changes I've seen
at BIDA since switching to Larks and Ravens at the beginning of the summer.
It's been truly remarkable!

'Til then,
Angela

On Oct 14, 2017 9:26 AM, "Mary Collins via Callers" <
callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> Martha, I dont recall this dance of which you speak. Could you share the
> true title and calls? Thanks! I also cringe over ladies (I don't fit that
> tradition) yet it is a good "place holder, ROLE identifer" for my
> communities.
>
> On Oct 14, 2017 9:06 AM, "Tom Hinds via Callers" <
> callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
>> I must have fallen asleep during a discussion of "ladies".  What's the
>> issue?
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>> > On Oct 11, 2017, at 12:13 PM, Martha Wild via Callers <
>> callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>> >
>> > I’ve got a gypsy star dance (I actually call it “Star Wrong” and not
>> just because of the g-word, but because if you say “gypsy star” everybody
>> starts to gypsy and NOT star, so I gave up on that confusing terminology).
>> Haven’t seen another dance like it. The move from mad robin into the star
>> wrong actually flows quite well.  I use men and women for roles, not
>> genders. When I first started calling, we considered “lady” to be a four
>> letter word - women’s movement and bra burning and all that. I still find
>> it hard to use the word “lady” and not bristle. Times have changed, now
>> people bristle at men and women. Go figure. I didn’t correct the “g-word”
>> use on this version
>> ___
>> List Name:  Callers mailing list
>> List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
>> Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
>>
>
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>
>
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Re: [Callers] Ladies

[Mary Collins via Callers]

Martha, I dont recall this dance of which you speak. Could you share the
true title and calls? Thanks! I also cringe over ladies (I don't fit that
tradition) yet it is a good "place holder, ROLE identifer" for my
communities.

On Oct 14, 2017 9:06 AM, "Tom Hinds via Callers" <
callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> I must have fallen asleep during a discussion of "ladies".  What's the
> issue?
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> > On Oct 11, 2017, at 12:13 PM, Martha Wild via Callers <
> callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
> >
> > I’ve got a gypsy star dance (I actually call it “Star Wrong” and not
> just because of the g-word, but because if you say “gypsy star” everybody
> starts to gypsy and NOT star, so I gave up on that confusing terminology).
> Haven’t seen another dance like it. The move from mad robin into the star
> wrong actually flows quite well.  I use men and women for roles, not
> genders. When I first started calling, we considered “lady” to be a four
> letter word - women’s movement and bra burning and all that. I still find
> it hard to use the word “lady” and not bristle. Times have changed, now
> people bristle at men and women. Go figure. I didn’t correct the “g-word”
> use on this version
> ___
> List Name:  Callers mailing list
> List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
> Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
>
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[Callers] Ladies

[Tom Hinds via Callers]

I must have fallen asleep during a discussion of "ladies".  What's the issue?

Sent from my iPad

> On Oct 11, 2017, at 12:13 PM, Martha Wild via Callers 
>  wrote:
> 
> I’ve got a gypsy star dance (I actually call it “Star Wrong” and not just 
> because of the g-word, but because if you say “gypsy star” everybody starts 
> to gypsy and NOT star, so I gave up on that confusing terminology). Haven’t 
> seen another dance like it. The move from mad robin into the star wrong 
> actually flows quite well.  I use men and women for roles, not genders. When 
> I first started calling, we considered “lady” to be a four letter word - 
> women’s movement and bra burning and all that. I still find it hard to use 
> the word “lady” and not bristle. Times have changed, now people bristle at 
> men and women. Go figure. I didn’t correct the “g-word” use on this version 
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