Re: [Callers] Dance logs and record-keeping

[Amy Wimmer via Callers]

Well, I've danced to a caller who decided that the exact same program, with
the exact same memorized patter, would work in the same city if separated
by a week and in a different venue. Not so much.

-Amy

On Wed, Mar 7, 2018, 11:15 PM Yoyo Zhou via Callers <
callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 5:41 PM, Kalia Kliban via Callers <
> callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
>> Dance logs, a cumulative record for a series of which dances have been
>> called on any given evening, are very common in the English dance community
>> but vanishingly rare in the contra community.  Why is that? They're really
>> helpful for incoming callers, and it's probably nice for the dancers not to
>> keep getting the same dances week after week.
>>
>
> Another factor is that English dances usually specify the tune that goes
> with them. Contra dances very rarely do. So if a dance series has a house
> band that plays most of the time, as some of the Bay Area English dances
> do, then a repeated English dance may be the same figures done to the same
> tune played by the same musicians. For a contra, even if the same band
> played the same set of tunes, it's typical to change tunes partway through
> the dance, anyway, so it's hard to achieve the same degree of repetition.
>
> Of course, repetition isn't always looked down upon. I've heard that the
> weekly dance in Nelson, NH always has Chorus Jig on the program, and other
> dances that repeat week to week. Some contra dancers do appreciate
> recognizing dances - ah, Poetry in Motion, I know how that one goes.
>
> As Mac says, the type of repetition that contra dancers really notice is
> within an evening - when four dances in a row have heys, or half of the
> dances have Petronella turns, and all start to feel the same... and that's
> a type of repetition that's less likely to appear in ECD, where dances that
> have similar figures could easily be done to different tempos or meters.
>
> Personally, I keep track of all the dances that I've actually called,
> because I don't want to call the same dances all the time; most of the time
> it's slightly different from what I programmed originally. I add notes to
> myself if something didn't go well. I can't remember if I've been asked by
> organizers for my program, but it may have happened once or twice.
>
> Hope this helps!
>
> Yoyo Zhou
>
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Re: [Callers] Dance logs and record-keeping

[Yoyo Zhou via Callers]

On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 5:41 PM, Kalia Kliban via Callers <
callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> Dance logs, a cumulative record for a series of which dances have been
> called on any given evening, are very common in the English dance community
> but vanishingly rare in the contra community.  Why is that? They're really
> helpful for incoming callers, and it's probably nice for the dancers not to
> keep getting the same dances week after week.
>

Another factor is that English dances usually specify the tune that goes
with them. Contra dances very rarely do. So if a dance series has a house
band that plays most of the time, as some of the Bay Area English dances
do, then a repeated English dance may be the same figures done to the same
tune played by the same musicians. For a contra, even if the same band
played the same set of tunes, it's typical to change tunes partway through
the dance, anyway, so it's hard to achieve the same degree of repetition.

Of course, repetition isn't always looked down upon. I've heard that the
weekly dance in Nelson, NH always has Chorus Jig on the program, and other
dances that repeat week to week. Some contra dancers do appreciate
recognizing dances - ah, Poetry in Motion, I know how that one goes.

As Mac says, the type of repetition that contra dancers really notice is
within an evening - when four dances in a row have heys, or half of the
dances have Petronella turns, and all start to feel the same... and that's
a type of repetition that's less likely to appear in ECD, where dances that
have similar figures could easily be done to different tempos or meters.

Personally, I keep track of all the dances that I've actually called,
because I don't want to call the same dances all the time; most of the time
it's slightly different from what I programmed originally. I add notes to
myself if something didn't go well. I can't remember if I've been asked by
organizers for my program, but it may have happened once or twice.

Hope this helps!

Yoyo Zhou
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Re: [Callers] Dance logs and record-keeping

[Maia McCormick via Callers]

I keep a log for my own records of my programs and observations (about the
evening, sequence of dances, my teaching, etc.) -- sure, it helps me not
repeat myself when I call two local dances in the same month, but mreh,
only other callers or a very small handful of dancers would notice me
repeating a dance or two in a situation like that. Mostly I use this record
to force myself to reflect on my calling, which is super value for finding
both things that are working well and things that I could improve on.

On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 1:02 PM, Donald Perley via Callers <
callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> Our dance format features multiple callers in an evening.  I recall
> one week we had 2 of the callers call the same dance (different names
> for the same
> dance) and very few of the dancers noticed.  As mentioned, different
> music (especially tempo and time signature) can make it feel like a
> different dance.
>
> On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 10:28 PM, Mac Mckeever via Callers
>  wrote:
> > This seems to me to be a lot of effort with very little benefit.  There
> are
> > thousands of dances and each caller has their own approach to
> programming.
> > It is rare for a dance to be called two nights in a row.  When I do see
> that
> > happening I often ask other dancers around me if they remember it - and
> no
> > one ever has.
> >
> > How would the next caller get access to this info? The logistics would
> seem
> > difficult and unnecessary.
> >
> > I do not even keep track of what dances I have called.  I start off fresh
> > when planning a program.  If I called somewhere and they ask me back next
> > year - no one will notice if a couple dances are the same. It probably
> means
> > they were really good ones.
> >
> > I agree that a different band, etc can make the same dance feel very
> > different and that a lot of dances are very similar.  It bothers me more
> > when a caller programs an evening with several dances that all feel the
> > same.
> >
> > Mac McKeever
> > St Louis
> >
> >
> > On Tuesday, March 6, 2018, 8:22:25 PM CST, Winston, Alan P. via Callers
> >  wrote:
> >
> >
> > Oddly enough, I was just in Seattle at the end of February and had a
> > conversation about this with Lindsey Dono, who told me to my surprise
> that
> > dancers at Lake City, at least, will complain about getting the same
> dance
> > two weeks in a row, and said that there *was* a log kept of dances called
> > locally.
> >
> > So, Amy, I suggest checking with Lindsey and see if the effort is already
> > under way.
> >
> > In the SF Bay Area, I think our dance populations kinda slop around, so
> that
> > while a core of people may go to the central Bay Area dances (SF,
> Berkeley,
> > Palo Alto), East Bay people may also go to North Bay dances (San Rafael,
> > Petaluma) and North Bay people may go to Berkeley or SF but not usually
> Palo
> > Alto, while Monterey Bay people (Monterey, Santa Cruz) go to those dances
> > and some come up to Palo Alto, and some South Bay people (Palo Alto, San
> > Jose, etc) go to Santa Cruz or Monterey.  The result is that every dancer
> > does the dances that are called at the dances they happen to go to, it
> would
> > be a huge coordinating effort to keep all the dances at different dance
> > series with somewhat-overlapping attendance separate, and nobody but
> callers
> > seems to care anyway.
> >
> > For me personally, different band, different tune set pretty much equals
> > different dance even with the same figures - but also dances that are 3/4
> > the same figures as other dances feel like the same dances anyway.
> >
> > -- Alan
> >
> > On 3/6/2018 6:07 PM, Amy Wimmer via Callers wrote:
> >
> > Huh! I never thought of that for the dance we run. I keep a file of each
> gig
> > and the dances I called at each. I also write on each dance card the date
> > and location of each time I've called it, so I don't repeat myself too
> > often.
> >
> > There's a record of contra dances called at Northwest Folklife Festival.
> I
> > don't know how far back it goes.
> >
> > I'll talk to my fellow organizers about starting this at Emerald City
> Contra
> > Dance.
> >
> > -Amy
> >
> > On Tue, Mar 6, 2018, 5:42 PM Kalia Kliban via Callers
> >  wrote:
> >
> > Dance logs, a cumulative record for a series of which dances have been
> > called on any given evening, are very common in the English dance
> > community but vanishingly rare in the contra community.  Why is that?
> > They're really helpful for incoming callers, and it's probably nice for
> > the dancers not to keep getting the same dances week after week.
> >
> > I've only ever known of one contra series that kept a log, and it's
> > probably because I suggested it when they started out (the Queer Contra
> > series in Oakland, CA).  Are there any contra organizers out there who
> > maintain a dance log?  Those of you who do, how do you get the dance
> 

Re: [Callers] Dance logs and record-keeping

[Donald Perley via Callers]

Our dance format features multiple callers in an evening.  I recall
one week we had 2 of the callers call the same dance (different names
for the same
dance) and very few of the dancers noticed.  As mentioned, different
music (especially tempo and time signature) can make it feel like a
different dance.

On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 10:28 PM, Mac Mckeever via Callers
 wrote:
> This seems to me to be a lot of effort with very little benefit.  There are
> thousands of dances and each caller has their own approach to programming.
> It is rare for a dance to be called two nights in a row.  When I do see that
> happening I often ask other dancers around me if they remember it - and no
> one ever has.
>
> How would the next caller get access to this info? The logistics would seem
> difficult and unnecessary.
>
> I do not even keep track of what dances I have called.  I start off fresh
> when planning a program.  If I called somewhere and they ask me back next
> year - no one will notice if a couple dances are the same. It probably means
> they were really good ones.
>
> I agree that a different band, etc can make the same dance feel very
> different and that a lot of dances are very similar.  It bothers me more
> when a caller programs an evening with several dances that all feel the
> same.
>
> Mac McKeever
> St Louis
>
>
> On Tuesday, March 6, 2018, 8:22:25 PM CST, Winston, Alan P. via Callers
>  wrote:
>
>
> Oddly enough, I was just in Seattle at the end of February and had a
> conversation about this with Lindsey Dono, who told me to my surprise that
> dancers at Lake City, at least, will complain about getting the same dance
> two weeks in a row, and said that there *was* a log kept of dances called
> locally.
>
> So, Amy, I suggest checking with Lindsey and see if the effort is already
> under way.
>
> In the SF Bay Area, I think our dance populations kinda slop around, so that
> while a core of people may go to the central Bay Area dances (SF, Berkeley,
> Palo Alto), East Bay people may also go to North Bay dances (San Rafael,
> Petaluma) and North Bay people may go to Berkeley or SF but not usually Palo
> Alto, while Monterey Bay people (Monterey, Santa Cruz) go to those dances
> and some come up to Palo Alto, and some South Bay people (Palo Alto, San
> Jose, etc) go to Santa Cruz or Monterey.  The result is that every dancer
> does the dances that are called at the dances they happen to go to, it would
> be a huge coordinating effort to keep all the dances at different dance
> series with somewhat-overlapping attendance separate, and nobody but callers
> seems to care anyway.
>
> For me personally, different band, different tune set pretty much equals
> different dance even with the same figures - but also dances that are 3/4
> the same figures as other dances feel like the same dances anyway.
>
> -- Alan
>
> On 3/6/2018 6:07 PM, Amy Wimmer via Callers wrote:
>
> Huh! I never thought of that for the dance we run. I keep a file of each gig
> and the dances I called at each. I also write on each dance card the date
> and location of each time I've called it, so I don't repeat myself too
> often.
>
> There's a record of contra dances called at Northwest Folklife Festival. I
> don't know how far back it goes.
>
> I'll talk to my fellow organizers about starting this at Emerald City Contra
> Dance.
>
> -Amy
>
> On Tue, Mar 6, 2018, 5:42 PM Kalia Kliban via Callers
>  wrote:
>
> Dance logs, a cumulative record for a series of which dances have been
> called on any given evening, are very common in the English dance
> community but vanishingly rare in the contra community.  Why is that?
> They're really helpful for incoming callers, and it's probably nice for
> the dancers not to keep getting the same dances week after week.
>
> I've only ever known of one contra series that kept a log, and it's
> probably because I suggested it when they started out (the Queer Contra
> series in Oakland, CA).  Are there any contra organizers out there who
> maintain a dance log?  Those of you who do, how do you get the dance
> lists from the callers?  The Oakland series had a little book on the
> stage and the callers would write their programs down as they went or at
> the end of the night.
>
> Part of it comes down to record-keeping on the part of the callers.  I
> keep a personal log of all the dances I've called so I can avoid
> repeating myself when I return to a given venue.  That makes it easy for
> me to produce a set list after the fact if an organizer wants to fill in
> a gap in the log.  Fellow contra callers, do you all keep records of
> what you call, and if you don't, how do you avoid repeating yourself or
> remember what worked well (or not) the last time you called at a
> particular place?
>
> If you work with something like Caller's Companion, do you update the
> program list with what you actually danced as opposed to 

Re: [Callers] Dance logs and record-keeping

[pmcfarli via Callers]

I have had the same experience as Mac.  The same dance can be different 
depending on the tune, the band, your partner...and even your own mood and 
abilities from 1 dance to the next.
Paula McFarlingColumbia, Mo

Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
 Original message From: John W Gintell via Callers 
 Date: 3/7/18  9:13 AM  (GMT-06:00) To: Kalia 
Kliban  Cc: callers@lists.sharedweight.net Subject: Re: 
[Callers] Dance logs and record-keeping 


> On Mar 6, 2018, at 11:23 PM, Kalia Kliban via Callers 
>  wrote:
> 
> On 3/6/2018 7:28 PM, Mac Mckeever via Callers wrote:
>> This seems to me to be a lot of effort with very little benefit.  There are 
>> thousands of dances and each caller has their own approach to programming.  
>> It is rare for a dance to be called two nights in a row.  When I do see that 
>> happening I often ask other dancers around me if they remember it - and no 
>> one ever has.
>> How would the next caller get access to this info? The logistics would seem 
>> difficult and unnecessary.
> 
> The way our local English dances do this is that the series programmer sends 
> the current log to the next caller on deck, who can then consider the log or 
> not, as they choose.  It's not a big deal.  I run the Sebastopol dance, and I 
> either write down the programs myself if I'm at the dance or contact the 
> caller afterward to get their list.  Simple Excel spreadsheet to keep track.  
> Easy.
> 
> If I'm coming to call for a community I've never worked with before, seeing a 
> list of the dances they've done gives me a good idea of the general level of 
> the group.  It's a useful tool.
> 
> Kalia in Sebastopol 

For our English dance in Jamaica Plain, the caller writes the dance name on a 
whiteboard in front of the hall after each dance. At the end of the dance we 
transcribe it into  book, I take a photo of the board and enter it in a 
database at home - and then post on our web page two lists,  one sorted by 
night, and one sorted by dance name. (If I am not there someone else sends me 
the info).I sometimes have to adjust the spellings - or deal with the “the” in 
the name so the sorting by dance name is OK. This record goes back to January 
2010.

  http://lcfd.org/bgfe/

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Re: [Callers] Dance logs and record-keeping

[John W Gintell via Callers]

> On Mar 6, 2018, at 11:23 PM, Kalia Kliban via Callers 
>  wrote:
> 
> On 3/6/2018 7:28 PM, Mac Mckeever via Callers wrote:
>> This seems to me to be a lot of effort with very little benefit.  There are 
>> thousands of dances and each caller has their own approach to programming.  
>> It is rare for a dance to be called two nights in a row.  When I do see that 
>> happening I often ask other dancers around me if they remember it - and no 
>> one ever has.
>> How would the next caller get access to this info? The logistics would seem 
>> difficult and unnecessary.
> 
> The way our local English dances do this is that the series programmer sends 
> the current log to the next caller on deck, who can then consider the log or 
> not, as they choose.  It's not a big deal.  I run the Sebastopol dance, and I 
> either write down the programs myself if I'm at the dance or contact the 
> caller afterward to get their list.  Simple Excel spreadsheet to keep track.  
> Easy.
> 
> If I'm coming to call for a community I've never worked with before, seeing a 
> list of the dances they've done gives me a good idea of the general level of 
> the group.  It's a useful tool.
> 
> Kalia in Sebastopol 

For our English dance in Jamaica Plain, the caller writes the dance name on a 
whiteboard in front of the hall after each dance. At the end of the dance we 
transcribe it into  book, I take a photo of the board and enter it in a 
database at home - and then post on our web page two lists,  one sorted by 
night, and one sorted by dance name. (If I am not there someone else sends me 
the info).I sometimes have to adjust the spellings - or deal with the “the” in 
the name so the sorting by dance name is OK. This record goes back to January 
2010.

  http://lcfd.org/bgfe/

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Re: [Callers] Dance logs and record-keeping

[Ryan Smith via Callers]

I keep a personal log on notecards.  I put the date of the event and the
venue and any other information that might be helpful for me when going
back.  Then I write out my intended program (in case I drop my ordered
cards).  If I make a change to the program, I'll update the card with any
additions, rearrangements or deletions.  I'll also put short notes about
how 'good' that program is:  "Too many ladies chain into RH Star" or "This
dance is confusing early in the evening" or "Too few neighbor swings" or
whatever will help me when planning for the future.  On the back of the
card I put the band name, names of members, their instruments and other
notes for announcement time so I can make sure the band gets introduced and
the sound person gets introduced and I make sure that whoever's in charge
of getting the hall taken care of has recognition and help.

Someone suggested it would be a lot of work and little benefit and hard to
share.  In our modern, connected world.  A shared platform like google docs
or google sheets or any blogging platform would allow the callers and
organizers of the dance to document it in a shared space, publicly
accessible or not.  Because it's a thing I already track, the extra work
for me is almost none.  If it's not a thing you already care about, it adds
some work, but really not that much.

--Ryan
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Re: [Callers] Leading, consent in embellishments

[Tom Hinds via Callers]

see my comments sprinkled...
On Mar 6, 2018, at 12:21 AM, Jeanette Mill via Callers wrote:


Hello

I am devising a workshop for a festival here in Australia, and  
have long been of the opinion that there are no "leaders" in  
contra dance couples.



That's a great issue to discuss.  My thought is that having a  
really fun time requires someone to take the initiative.  Of course  
it's quite possible that dancing in Australia is different than  
dancing here in the states.



Moves should be executed with mutual consent, especially  
embellishments such as turning under out of a ladies' chain.  
Conventions such as waltz hold swings are really useful here. In  
Australia, other related dance forms use a variety of swing holds,  
which lead to confusion and interruption of flow. I plan to place  
some emphasis on conventions of holds, such as allemande and star  
holds.
Would it depend on the situation?  If there are new dancers would  
you expect or appreciate leading from a more experienced dancer?  I  
would say skill level would play a part in this issue even between  
people who are not beginners.


I would value people's opinions on this, as it may ruffle some  
long-held conventions. Any words of wisdom from the gender free  
dance community would be especially welcome.



Also, I believe that if dancers are to enjoy embellishments, they  
must be by mutual consent. This is so difficult to establish in a  
microsecond. I would value any thoughts on how to advise reaching  
this consent in the context of a contra dance.
I know in my small town everyone knows everyone and it's easy to  
adjust your style when it comes to embellishments.  When you meet  
someone in line you know what to expect unless it's a new face.


Would that be very different at a large dance or say at a festival  
where people from other areas attend?


Looking forward to your thoughts
My limited personal experience is that I'm the leader because I'm  
the stronger dancer.


If I verbally suggest that my partner "twirl me" they will, but  
it's usually in the wrong direction or at the wrong time.  There  
are good female leaders out there, but not here in my town.  So how  
about a workshop where people are allowed or encouraged to try the  
role they may not be the most comfortable with?


cheers
Jeanette

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