[Callers] choreography

[Joe Micheals]

Folklife is coming up in Seattle this weekend.  Looking for dances with 
Petronella's in the "A" part of the dance (besides the original).   I came up 
with Heart Beat Contra, Cure for the Claps & Barberella.  Any others top of 
mind?
-Joe Micheals

Re: [Callers] choreography

[Joy Greenwolfe]

Other dances with petronella balance and twirls in the A are The Gypsy Bride by 
Robert Cromartie and the String Beings (which goes with the tune of the same 
name), and Go To Moondance for Fun by Dean Snipes. 

Joy 
Durham, NC

On May 19, 2014, at 4:17 PM, Joe Micheals wrote:

> Folklife is coming up in Seattle this weekend.  Looking for dances with 
> Petronella's in the "A" part of the dance (besides the original).   I came up 
> with Heart Beat Contra, Cure for the Claps & Barberella.  Any others top of 
> mind?
> -Joe Micheals
> ___
> Callers mailing list
> call...@sharedweight.net
> http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers

Re: [Callers] choreography

[Yoyo Zhou]

On Mon, May 19, 2014 at 1:17 PM, Joe Micheals  wrote:
> Folklife is coming up in Seattle this weekend.  Looking for dances with 
> Petronella's in the "A" part of the dance (besides the original).   I came up 
> with Heart Beat Contra, Cure for the Claps & Barberella.  Any others top of 
> mind?

A few more:
Joel's in the Kitchen, by Sue Rosen
Becket in the Kitchen, by Becky Hill
Spring Break, by Nils Fredland
Love at First Swing, by Bob Isaacs

Yoyo Zhou

Re: [Callers] choreography

[Kalia Kliban]

Contra Quad by Seth Tepfer.
Flaherty Will Get You Everywhere by Bob Isaacs
Greenfield Petronella by Chris Ricciotti (dbl prog)
Joel's In The Kitchen by Sue Rosen (the petronella's in the A2)
Petronella Stomp by Tom Lehmann (A2 again)

And rhythmically similar are dances that start with box circulates, like 
Chris Page's Chinese New Year.


See you at Folklife!
Kalia

On 5/19/2014 1:50 PM, Joy Greenwolfe wrote:

Other dances with petronella balance and twirls in the A are The Gypsy Bride by 
Robert Cromartie and the String Beings (which goes with the tune of the same 
name), and Go To Moondance for Fun by Dean Snipes.

Joy
Durham, NC

On May 19, 2014, at 4:17 PM, Joe Micheals wrote:


Folklife is coming up in Seattle this weekend.  Looking for dances with Petronella's in the 
"A" part of the dance (besides the original).   I came up with Heart Beat Contra, 
Cure for the Claps & Barberella.  Any others top of mind?
-Joe Micheals
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Re: [Callers] choreography

[Bill Baritompa]

Hi Joe,

A few more with Petronella in the A

Another Art and Nancy’s Fancy by Yonina Gordon and Joseph Pimentel
Another Cure (for the Claps) by Rich Goss
Easy Petronella 
http://www.sharedweight.net/pipermail/callers/2013-January/005701.html

Fall Back by Jim Kitch
Imitation is Sincere by Tom Lehmann
Petronella's Pin by Dave Colestock
Vote with your feet by Bob Isaacs

Cheers, Bill

Re: [Callers] choreography

[Michael Dyck]

On 14-05-19 01:17 PM, Joe Micheals wrote:

Looking for dances with Petronella's in the "A" part of the dance (besides the 
original).


A few more:
"Caspian Tern" by David Cottle
"In the Midnight Hour" by Erik Hoffman
"Roadkill" by Cary Ravitz
"Fiddleheads"  by Ted Sanella

-Michael

Re: [Callers] choreography

[Donna Hunt]

Here's one of mine if you think it might be helpful.


DanceGypsy’s Honeymoon  DonnaHunt Becket-R
A1.  4,4   Balance, Petronella turn 1½ 
(facenew neighbors up and down)
4,4   Balance, Petronella turn (face across)
 A2.  8  Ladies allem L 1½
8  Neighbor swing
 B1.  8  Long lines forward and back
8  Pass the ocean (ladies left, neighborright, men pull by) 
 B2.  16Partner gypsy and swing
When out have dancers stand with ladies on left. 

Written for Mike and JoEllen Jendzeizyk’smarriage (April 2005).  Best tuneis 
Wizard’s Walk
 

 

Donna Hunt



 

 

-Original Message-
From: Joy Greenwolfe 
To: Caller's discussion list 
Sent: Mon, May 19, 2014 4:50 pm
Subject: Re: [Callers] choreography


Other dances with petronella balance and twirls in the A are The Gypsy Bride by 
Robert Cromartie and the String Beings (which goes with the tune of the same 
name), and Go To Moondance for Fun by Dean Snipes. 

Joy 
Durham, NC

On May 19, 2014, at 4:17 PM, Joe Micheals wrote:

> Folklife is coming up in Seattle this weekend.  Looking for dances with 
Petronella's in the "A" part of the dance (besides the original).   I came up 
with Heart Beat Contra, Cure for the Claps & Barberella.  Any others top of 
mind?
> -Joe Micheals
> ___
> Callers mailing list
> call...@sharedweight.net
> http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers

___
Callers mailing list
call...@sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers

 

Re: [Callers] choreography

[Jack Mitchell]

Hey Donna--

Looks like a great dance, but I'm confused by B1b.  Pass the ocean...so
that's 4 beats and gets you into a short wave with the ladies in the
middle.  Then in () you have ladies left, neighbor right, gents pull by.
So that's essentially a centers trade, swing thru, but wouldn't you already
have your neighbor in your right hand in the wave?  Can you clarify?


On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 8:52 AM, Donna Hunt  wrote:

>
> Here's one of mine if you think it might be helpful.
>
>
> DanceGypsy’s Honeymoon  DonnaHunt
> Becket-R
> A1.  4,4   Balance, Petronella turn 1½
> (facenew neighbors up and down)
> 4,4   Balance, Petronella turn (face across)
>  A2.  8  Ladies allem L 1½
> 8  Neighbor swing
>  B1.  8  Long lines forward and back
> 8  Pass the ocean (ladies left, neighborright, men
> pull by)
>  B2.  16Partner gypsy and swing
> When out have dancers stand with ladies on left.
>
> Written for Mike and JoEllen Jendzeizyk’smarriage (April 2005).  Best
> tuneis Wizard’s Walk
>
>
>
>
> Donna Hunt
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Joy Greenwolfe 
> To: Caller's discussion list 
> Sent: Mon, May 19, 2014 4:50 pm
> Subject: Re: [Callers] choreography
>
>
> Other dances with petronella balance and twirls in the A are The Gypsy
> Bride by
> Robert Cromartie and the String Beings (which goes with the tune of the
> same
> name), and Go To Moondance for Fun by Dean Snipes.
>
> Joy
> Durham, NC
>
> On May 19, 2014, at 4:17 PM, Joe Micheals wrote:
>
> > Folklife is coming up in Seattle this weekend.  Looking for dances with
> Petronella's in the "A" part of the dance (besides the original).   I came
> up
> with Heart Beat Contra, Cure for the Claps & Barberella.  Any others top of
> mind?
> > -Joe Micheals
> > ___
> > Callers mailing list
> > call...@sharedweight.net
> > http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
>
> ___
> Callers mailing list
> call...@sharedweight.net
> http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
>
>
> ___
> Callers mailing list
> call...@sharedweight.net
> http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
>

Re: [Callers] choreography

[Yoyo Zhou]

I found one possible interpretation for those 4+4 beats:

Pass the ocean (ladies have left hand in center, neighbor in right hand).
Neighbor pull by / allemande right 1/2, gents pull by left. (Pass the ocean
+ swing thru as it might be called in squares.)

On May 22, 2014 8:57 PM, "Jack Mitchell"  wrote:
>
> Hey Donna--
>
> Looks like a great dance, but I'm confused by B1b.  Pass the ocean...so
> that's 4 beats and gets you into a short wave with the ladies in the
> middle.  Then in () you have ladies left, neighbor right, gents pull by.
> So that's essentially a centers trade, swing thru, but wouldn't you
already
> have your neighbor in your right hand in the wave?  Can you clarify?
>
>
> On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 8:52 AM, Donna Hunt  wrote:
>
> >
> > Here's one of mine if you think it might be helpful.
> >
> >
> > DanceGypsy’s Honeymoon  DonnaHunt
> > Becket-R
> > A1.  4,4   Balance, Petronella turn 1½
> > (facenew neighbors up and down)
> > 4,4   Balance, Petronella turn (face across)
> >  A2.  8  Ladies allem L 1½
> > 8  Neighbor swing
> >  B1.  8  Long lines forward and back
> > 8  Pass the ocean (ladies left, neighborright, men
> > pull by)
> >  B2.  16Partner gypsy and swing
> > When out have dancers stand with ladies on left.
> >
> > Written for Mike and JoEllen Jendzeizyk’smarriage (April 2005).  Best
> > tuneis Wizard’s Walk
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Donna Hunt
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Joy Greenwolfe 
> > To: Caller's discussion list 
> > Sent: Mon, May 19, 2014 4:50 pm
> > Subject: Re: [Callers] choreography
> >
> >
> > Other dances with petronella balance and twirls in the A are The Gypsy
> > Bride by
> > Robert Cromartie and the String Beings (which goes with the tune of the
> > same
> > name), and Go To Moondance for Fun by Dean Snipes.
> >
> > Joy
> > Durham, NC
> >
> > On May 19, 2014, at 4:17 PM, Joe Micheals wrote:
> >
> > > Folklife is coming up in Seattle this weekend.  Looking for dances
with
> > Petronella's in the "A" part of the dance (besides the original).   I
came
> > up
> > with Heart Beat Contra, Cure for the Claps & Barberella.  Any others
top of
> > mind?
> > > -Joe Micheals
> > > ___
> > > Callers mailing list
> > > call...@sharedweight.net
> > > http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
> >
> > ___
> > Callers mailing list
> > call...@sharedweight.net
> > http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Callers mailing list
> > call...@sharedweight.net
> > http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
> >
> ___
> Callers mailing list
> call...@sharedweight.net
> http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers

Re: [Callers] choreography

[Donna Hunt]

 that is correct it's a pass the ocean + swing thru.
You don't actually stop in the wave.  

Pass the ocean; Gents cross to opposite side and Ladies take left and turn 1/4 ,
Swing through; all turn your neighbor by the right 1/2 and then the gents pull 
by the left.  (Ladies stay where they are on the side of the set and then their 
partners pull by left to meet them)

 
hope that's clearer.  

Donna



 

 

-Original Message-
From: Yoyo Zhou 
To: Caller's discussion list 
Sent: Fri, May 23, 2014 1:02 am
Subject: Re: [Callers] choreography


I found one possible interpretation for those 4+4 beats:

Pass the ocean (ladies have left hand in center, neighbor in right hand).
Neighbor pull by / allemande right 1/2, gents pull by left. (Pass the ocean
+ swing thru as it might be called in squares.)

On May 22, 2014 8:57 PM, "Jack Mitchell"  wrote:
>
> Hey Donna--
>
> Looks like a great dance, but I'm confused by B1b.  Pass the ocean...so
> that's 4 beats and gets you into a short wave with the ladies in the
> middle.  Then in () you have ladies left, neighbor right, gents pull by.
> So that's essentially a centers trade, swing thru, but wouldn't you
already
> have your neighbor in your right hand in the wave?  Can you clarify?
>
>
> On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 8:52 AM, Donna Hunt  wrote:
>
> >
> > Here's one of mine if you think it might be helpful.
> >
> >
> > DanceGypsy’s Honeymoon  DonnaHunt
> > Becket-R
> > A1.  4,4   Balance, Petronella turn 1½
> > (facenew neighbors up and down)
> > 4,4   Balance, Petronella turn (face across)
> >  A2.  8  Ladies allem L 1½
> > 8  Neighbor swing
> >  B1.  8  Long lines forward and back
> > 8  Pass the ocean (ladies left, neighborright, men
> > pull by)
> >  B2.  16Partner gypsy and swing
> > When out have dancers stand with ladies on left.
> >
> > Written for Mike and JoEllen Jendzeizyk’smarriage (April 2005).  Best
> > tuneis Wizard’s Walk
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Donna Hunt
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Joy Greenwolfe 
> > To: Caller's discussion list 
> > Sent: Mon, May 19, 2014 4:50 pm
> > Subject: Re: [Callers] choreography
> >
> >
> > Other dances with petronella balance and twirls in the A are The Gypsy
> > Bride by
> > Robert Cromartie and the String Beings (which goes with the tune of the
> > same
> > name), and Go To Moondance for Fun by Dean Snipes.
> >
> > Joy
> > Durham, NC
> >
> > On May 19, 2014, at 4:17 PM, Joe Micheals wrote:
> >
> > > Folklife is coming up in Seattle this weekend.  Looking for dances
with
> > Petronella's in the "A" part of the dance (besides the original).   I
came
> > up
> > with Heart Beat Contra, Cure for the Claps & Barberella.  Any others
top of
> > mind?
> > > -Joe Micheals
> > > ___
> > > Callers mailing list
> > > call...@sharedweight.net
> > > http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
> >
> > ___
> > Callers mailing list
> > call...@sharedweight.net
> > http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Callers mailing list
> > call...@sharedweight.net
> > http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
> >
> ___
> Callers mailing list
> call...@sharedweight.net
> http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
___
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call...@sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers


 

Re: [Callers] choreography

[Aahz Maruch via Callers]

[following up late after Memorial Day vacation]

On Fri, May 23, 2014, Donna Hunt wrote:
>
> Pass the ocean; Gents cross to opposite side and Ladies take left and
> turn 1/4
>
> Swing through; all turn your neighbor by the right 1/2 and then the
> gents pull by the left.  (Ladies stay where they are on the side of
> the set and then their partners pull by left to meet them)
>
> hope that's clearer.  

Not really  ;-)

These are not the definitions used in MWSD, and I would expect some
confusion unless you both made that clear to the dancers and taught
these moves carefully using your definitions.  Personally, I prefer the
MWSD definitions (with possibly some alteration for simplicity because
you know who the dancers are with your configuration):

Pass The Ocean: pass through, face partner, step to wave

Swing Thru: turn by right 1/2, turn by left 1/2 (i.e. in your case I'd
make this "neighbor turn by right 1/2, men turn by left 1/2")

If you actually really truly mean "pull by" in your definition above (as
opposed to the ending figure being still a wave), I strongly recommend
that you change the figure name to something other than "swing through".
-- 
Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6http://rule6.info/
  <*>   <*>   <*>
Help a hearing-impaired person: http://rule6.info/hearing.html
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[Callers] Choreography and Copyright

[Jeremy Child via Callers]

The folk community is generally very open on sharing ideas and
choreography.  I suspect few of us would think twice about calling a dance
that we found when someone else called it at an event.  As for publishing
it on the internet, we'd probably be more reticent, especially if the
author has not published it, or has done so in booklets that are sold.

This is generally the opposite of what happens in other dance communities,
where the creation is jealously guarded.  This made me wonder whether we
are too lax in assuming that a choreographer is happy for us to make full
use of their work.  So my question on the subject of copyright of
choreography is:

Under what circumstances do we have the moral and/or legal right to:
1) Call a dance written by someone else?
2) Publish a dance written by someone else?
3) Modify, or borrow from, a dance written by someone else?

Jeremy

Re: [Callers] Choreography and Copyright

[Janet Bertog via Callers]

> Under what circumstances do we have the moral and/or legal right to:
> 1) Call a dance written by someone else?

This is part of the folk process and the best way to get dances in
circulation. If people only called their own dances or had to pay royalties
to call other people's dances, a lot of dances would never get called.

> 2) Publish a dance written by someone else?

No. The choreographer should publish their dances, unless they ask someone
else to do it. I know some choreographers don't want their dances
published, for some reason.

> 3) Modify, or borrow from, a dance written by someone else?

If you modify a dance in a very minor way, my policy is to say it is a
variation of that dance and credit the original choreographer. If you
borrow a move or sequence from a dance, I personally believe you should
credit the origin of the move or sequence in a foot note when you publish
it.

Janet

Re: [Callers] Choreography and Copyright

[Martha Wild via Callers]

Call a dance written by someone else:
Pretty much always, is my guess. If I note down a dance at a festival and I 
like it, I call it, and try to get all attributions for announcement. Maybe if 
there was a caller who stipulate that no one was to call their dances without 
express permission or proof they’d bought the book - but I don’t know of a 
caller doing that.

Publish a dance written by someone else:
If the dance is on the author's open website, or I know the caller personally 
and know they are happy to have their dances spread throughout the community, 
then fine. If a dance is in a book that one has to buy, then never - might 
mention the name and author, and maybe the book, but I wouldn’t give out the 
dance details. Don’t know? Don’t publish it.

Modify, borrow from, a dance written by someone else?
Always! If it’s a small change and I’m calling it I just give the author credit 
and say it’s a slight variant (forward and back instead of circle left for 
example). Using an interesting figure and sticking it in a new context 
substantially different from the original - no problem, but I might credit the 
original on a website for example - “inspired by Title, by So-and-So”.

Very different from English Country, by the way. If someone has written a dance 
there, and you realize that a turn single left would be so much more intuitive 
and flow better than a turn single right, heaven forfend that you should 
suggest changing the author’s original intention! Even if maybe it was an 
oversight originally! Liberty is NOT to be taken, at least with modern dances - 
though it’s a little grayer with traditional dances that various people 
interpret differently because the original directions are sometimes obscure.

As for me - as a dance choreographer - please feel free to spread my dances - 
they are on my website, and I wrote them to go out into the world and be 
fruitful and multiply and all that.

Martha

> On Jan 22, 2016, at 4:03 PM, Jeremy Child via Callers 
>  wrote:
> 
> The folk community is generally very open on sharing ideas and choreography.  
> I suspect few of us would think twice about calling a dance that we found 
> when someone else called it at an event.  As for publishing it on the 
> internet, we'd probably be more reticent, especially if the author has not 
> published it, or has done so in booklets that are sold.
> 
> This is generally the opposite of what happens in other dance communities, 
> where the creation is jealously guarded.  This made me wonder whether we are 
> too lax in assuming that a choreographer is happy for us to make full use of 
> their work.  So my question on the subject of copyright of choreography is:
> 
> Under what circumstances do we have the moral and/or legal right to:
> 1) Call a dance written by someone else?
> 2) Publish a dance written by someone else?
> 3) Modify, or borrow from, a dance written by someone else?
> 
> Jeremy
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Re: [Callers] Choreography and Copyright

[Laur via Callers]

 blockquote, div.yahoo_quoted { margin-left: 0 !important; border-left:1px 
#715FFA solid !important;  padding-left:1ex !important; background-color:white 
!important; }  I agree with everything Janet said.  In addition before I'd 
publish anything I'd ask permission then credit the author. 
Laurie p


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad


On Friday, January 22, 2016, 7:11 PM, Janet Bertog via Callers 
 wrote:



> Under what circumstances do we have the moral and/or legal right to:
> 1) Call a dance written by someone else?

This is part of the folk process and the best way to get dances in circulation. 
If people only called their own dances or had to pay royalties to call other 
people's dances, a lot of dances would never get called. 


> 2) Publish a dance written by someone else?

No. The choreographer should publish their dances, unless they ask someone else 
to do it. I know some choreographers don't want their dances published, for 
some reason. 

> 3) Modify, or borrow from, a dance written by someone else?

If you modify a dance in a very minor way, my policy is to say it is a 
variation of that dance and credit the original choreographer. If you borrow a 
move or sequence from a dance, I personally believe you should credit the 
origin of the move or sequence in a foot note when you publish it. 

Janet
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Re: [Callers] Choreography and Copyright

[Winston, Alan P. via Callers]

On 1/22/2016 7:02 PM, Martha Wild via Callers wrote:

Call a dance written by someone else:
Pretty much always, is my guess. If I note down a dance at a festival and I 
like it, I call it, and try to get all attributions for announcement. Maybe if 
there was a caller who stipulate that no one was to call their dances without 
express permission or proof they’d bought the book - but I don’t know of a 
caller doing that.

Agreed!


Publish a dance written by someone else:
If the dance is on the author's open website, or I know the caller personally 
and know they are happy to have their dances spread throughout the community, 
then fine. If a dance is in a book that one has to buy, then never - might 
mention the name and author, and maybe the book, but I wouldn’t give out the 
dance details. Don’t know? Don’t publish it.
I assume you're using "publish" to mean "disseminate" - give out the 
instructions on mailing lists, let people see your card, whatever.
If so, agreed!  To be excessively anal about it, I would disagree if 
"publish" meant "include in a collection I was putting out to sell" 
(without getting express permission from the author.)




Modify, borrow from, a dance written by someone else?
Always! If it’s a small change and I’m calling it I just give the author credit 
and say it’s a slight variant (forward and back instead of circle left for 
example). Using an interesting figure and sticking it in a new context 
substantially different from the original - no problem, but I might credit the 
original on a website for example - “inspired by Title, by So-and-So”.
Agreed.  And sometimes the name of the new dance can have a nod to the 
name of the old dance.



Very different from English Country, by the way. If someone has written a dance 
there, and you realize that a turn single left would be so much more intuitive 
and flow better than a turn single right, heaven forfend that you should 
suggest changing the author’s original intention! Even if maybe it was an 
oversight originally! Liberty is NOT to be taken, at least with modern dances - 
though it’s a little grayer with traditional dances that various people 
interpret differently because the original directions are sometimes obscure.


Not *always*.   I have seen respected ECD leaders call things 
differently than they were written, although they usually call attention 
to it when doing it.  I have also had someone ask me if a particular 
modification of a dance I'd written - a right-hand turn instead of a 
g-word  - was acceptable to me, and I said "sure", and wasn't honked 
that he called it that way.  I was pleased when he put it on the program 
of a ball he was calling, and then honked when the ball booklet had the 
modified version and listed the dance as a collaboration between the two 
of us.





As for me - as a dance choreographer - please feel free to spread my dances - 
they are on my website, and I wrote them to go out into the world and be 
fruitful and multiply and all that.

Thanks for that!  I've called some of them and been happy to have them.

-- Alan

Re: [Callers] Choreography and Copyright

[Tom Hinds via Callers]

Jeremy,

My understanding is that here in the US choreography can't be  
protected by law but the written word or the description of it can be  
legally copyrighted.


It would be interesting to know what the law is in the UK.

T

Re: [Callers] Choreography and Copyright

[Rich Sbardella via Callers]

Alan wrote, "As for me - as a dance choreographer - please feel free to
spread my dances - they are on my website, and I wrote them to go out into
the world and be fruitful and multiply and all that."

Thank you Alan for your generosity.

My comments below are related to the square dance and contra dance worlds,
since I am unaware of ECD norms.

I wish that their was a central website that could serve as a dance swap,
or dance sharing site.  Any caller that wanted to make their choreo
available could then easily upload the dances, and folks like me could
easily download or at leat view the material.  If a caller chose to keep
his dances proprietary, he could make that choice as well.  It would be
great to be able to search for dances by title and choreography as well.

As a caller that called MWSD and has migrated to contras. it was a bit of a
surprise how some contra calllers commercially published dance choreography
for a particular set of dances.  In MWSD, 64 step dances are quite the norm
for singing calls, and many callers have developed quite interesting
figures.  Several callers have published compilations of singing call
figures without crediting thei original choreographers.  If I danced a
figure, and I enjoyed it, it was perfectly acceptable to use that figure in
a different singing call., in fact it was encouraged.   I often searched
websites, not necessarily for music to buy, but rather for dance figures.

In the contra world, I have met callers very liberal with their dances, and
they will freely provide choreography.  Some are honored, or even
flattered, when another caller calls their dance.  Other callers are more
protective of their choreography,  for what ever reason.  They may sell
that choreography in booklet or recorded form.  That is certainly within
their rights.  I have purchased many such booklets.

However, when I go to a dance as a dancer, I am looking for smooth and/or
interesting choreography to add to my collection of dances.  I may take
notes on several dances, but  I seldom use more that one or two dances that
I pick up on any given evening.  I am guessing that this is ethical.

Last weekend, I danced to a caller that was new to me.  He has written many
dances and I especially enjoyed two of the ones he called.  When I emailed
him about the dances, he sent me the requested choreography, along with a
few others he wrote.  He was more generous than I hoped for.

I also have a basement full of dance books, records and CDs by many callers
and bands.  When it is available, I often take advantage of the opportunity
to purchase material as a way to support artists.  I also find much
choreography on line.  Youtube is a valuable resource.  There are many
other resources as well.  Many callers have websites with their dances
published for the free use of others.

My cards always indicate the author of the dance, or the source, if I do
not know the author, and I most often announce the author when I call
dance.  The concept that someone own's choreography is difficult for me to
understand, since most dances incorporate elements of previous dances, or
moves borrowed from someone, or somewhere.  I understand that
choreographers can innovate as they write dances, but really are not most,
or maybe all, dances really just variations of others, either in part or in
whole?

Rich
Stafford, CT



On Fri, Jan 22, 2016 at 10:42 PM, Winston, Alan P. via Callers <
callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

>
>
> On 1/22/2016 7:02 PM, Martha Wild via Callers wrote:
>
>> Call a dance written by someone else:
>> Pretty much always, is my guess. If I note down a dance at a festival and
>> I like it, I call it, and try to get all attributions for announcement.
>> Maybe if there was a caller who stipulate that no one was to call their
>> dances without express permission or proof they’d bought the book - but I
>> don’t know of a caller doing that.
>>
> Agreed!
>
> Publish a dance written by someone else:
>> If the dance is on the author's open website, or I know the caller
>> personally and know they are happy to have their dances spread throughout
>> the community, then fine. If a dance is in a book that one has to buy, then
>> never - might mention the name and author, and maybe the book, but I
>> wouldn’t give out the dance details. Don’t know? Don’t publish it.
>>
> I assume you're using "publish" to mean "disseminate" - give out the
> instructions on mailing lists, let people see your card, whatever.
> If so, agreed!  To be excessively anal about it, I would disagree if
> "publish" meant "include in a collection I was putting out to sell"
> (without getting express permission from the author.)
>
>
> Modify, borrow from, a dance written by someone else?
>> Always! If it’s a small change and I’m calling it I just give the author
>> credit and say it’s a slight variant (forward and back instead of circle
>> left for example). Using an interesting figure and sticking it in a new
>> context substantially di

Re: [Callers] Choreography and Copyright

[Martha Wild via Callers]

Actually, I wrote that. It was included in Alan’s post.
Martha

> On Jan 23, 2016, at 11:45 AM, Rich Sbardella via Callers 
>  wrote:
> 
> Alan wrote, "As for me - as a dance choreographer - please feel free to 
> spread my dances - they are on my website, and I wrote them to go out into 
> the world and be fruitful and multiply and all that."
> 
> Thank you Alan for your generosity.
> 
> My comments below are related to the square dance and contra dance worlds, 
> since I am unaware of ECD norms.
> 
> I wish that their was a central website that could serve as a dance swap, or 
> dance sharing site.  Any caller that wanted to make their choreo available 
> could then easily upload the dances, and folks like me could easily download 
> or at leat view the material.  If a caller chose to keep his dances 
> proprietary, he could make that choice as well.  It would be great to be able 
> to search for dances by title and choreography as well.
> 
> As a caller that called MWSD and has migrated to contras. it was a bit of a 
> surprise how some contra calllers commercially published dance choreography 
> for a particular set of dances.  In MWSD, 64 step dances are quite the norm 
> for singing calls, and many callers have developed quite interesting figures. 
>  Several callers have published compilations of singing call figures without 
> crediting thei original choreographers.  If I danced a figure, and I enjoyed 
> it, it was perfectly acceptable to use that figure in a different singing 
> call., in fact it was encouraged.   I often searched websites, not 
> necessarily for music to buy, but rather for dance figures. 
> 
> In the contra world, I have met callers very liberal with their dances, and 
> they will freely provide choreography.  Some are honored, or even flattered, 
> when another caller calls their dance.  Other callers are more protective of 
> their choreography,  for what ever reason.  They may sell that choreography 
> in booklet or recorded form.  That is certainly within their rights.  I have 
> purchased many such booklets.
> 
> However, when I go to a dance as a dancer, I am looking for smooth and/or 
> interesting choreography to add to my collection of dances.  I may take notes 
> on several dances, but  I seldom use more that one or two dances that I pick 
> up on any given evening.  I am guessing that this is ethical.  
> 
> Last weekend, I danced to a caller that was new to me.  He has written many 
> dances and I especially enjoyed two of the ones he called.  When I emailed 
> him about the dances, he sent me the requested choreography, along with a few 
> others he wrote.  He was more generous than I hoped for.
> 
> I also have a basement full of dance books, records and CDs by many callers 
> and bands.  When it is available, I often take advantage of the opportunity 
> to purchase material as a way to support artists.  I also find much 
> choreography on line.  Youtube is a valuable resource.  There are many other 
> resources as well.  Many callers have websites with their dances published 
> for the free use of others.  
> 
> My cards always indicate the author of the dance, or the source, if I do not 
> know the author, and I most often announce the author when I call dance.  The 
> concept that someone own's choreography is difficult for me to understand, 
> since most dances incorporate elements of previous dances, or moves borrowed 
> from someone, or somewhere.  I understand that choreographers can innovate as 
> they write dances, but really are not most, or maybe all, dances really just 
> variations of others, either in part or in whole?
> 
> Rich
> Stafford, CT
> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, Jan 22, 2016 at 10:42 PM, Winston, Alan P. via Callers 
> mailto:callers@lists.sharedweight.net>> 
> wrote:
> 
> 
> On 1/22/2016 7:02 PM, Martha Wild via Callers wrote:
> Call a dance written by someone else:
> Pretty much always, is my guess. If I note down a dance at a festival and I 
> like it, I call it, and try to get all attributions for announcement. Maybe 
> if there was a caller who stipulate that no one was to call their dances 
> without express permission or proof they’d bought the book - but I don’t know 
> of a caller doing that.
> Agreed!
> 
> Publish a dance written by someone else:
> If the dance is on the author's open website, or I know the caller personally 
> and know they are happy to have their dances spread throughout the community, 
> then fine. If a dance is in a book that one has to buy, then never - might 
> mention the name and author, and maybe the book, but I wouldn’t give out the 
> dance details. Don’t know? Don’t publish it.
> I assume you're using "publish" to mean "disseminate" - give out the 
> instructions on mailing lists, let people see your card, whatever.
> If so, agreed!  To be excessively anal about it, I would disagree if 
> "publish" meant "include in a collection I was putting out to sell" (without 
> getting express permission from the autho

Re: [Callers] Choreography and Copyright

[Colin Hume via Callers]

On Sat, 23 Jan 2016 10:47:04 -0500, Tom Hinds via Callers wrote:
> My understanding is that here in the US choreography can't be
> protected by law but the written word or the description of it can
> be legally copyrighted.
>
> It would be interesting to know what the law is in the UK.

My understanding is that it's the same here.  But when we've discussed
copyright on lists the usual conclusion is that there just isn't
enough money in it for anyone to make a fuss no matter what happens!

Colin Hume

Re: [Callers] Choreography and Copyright

[Neal Schlein via Callers]

Since the original question had two points, about legal and moral
standing,  I'll answer the legal part:

The short answer is NO YOU MAY NOT WITHOUT PERMISSION.

US law is both extremely clear and exceptionally vague.  The clear parts:
1.  Any new creative work that is set down in a fixed form is instantly
copyrighted.  There is a bare minimum of creativity needed to generate
copyrightable material.
2.  Dance choreography is a copyrightable form.
3. The following acts are SOLELY allowed to the copyright holder or
specifically licensed user:  performance, reproduction, reprinting,
publishing,  public display, broadcast, recording, creation of a derivative
work.  I may have forgotten a few.
4. US copyright law has no moral requirements; it is purely financial and
transactional in nature.  You have no legal moral requirement (whatever
that means...) to acknowledge the author's wishes or even identify them as
the author.  In Europe this is different.
5. There is no mechanism established in US copyright law for a person to
place an item into the public domain, nor for unclaimed and otherwise
orphan works except if they clearly fall into the public domain due to
age.  See Creative Commons for an attempted fix.
6.  If an item is not registered with the Copyright Office, you can only
sue for actual damages and demand cessation.  (Usually neither worth it nor
desired in our world.)  If an item has been registered with the Copyright
Office, you can sue for many thousands of dollars, plus court costs and
actual damages.
7.  There are no provisions for traditional or folk material or forms, and
very little case law.

So, all modern contra dances are copyrighted works, and under the main part
of the law it is clear that you may not legally publish, reprint, call
(perform), or video tape them without permission from the copyright holder
(this is not necessarily the author).

The unclear part:
The Fair Use provision allows for anyone to use copyrighted material
without permission in any of the otherwise prohibited ways...under
unspecified circumstances, according to at least four criteria that must be
applied to each individual situation and weighted uniquely by a judge, and
which can only be determined with certainty for a given case by the Supreme
Court.  So, basically useless as a planning guide.


*Whether you think the above should be true or not, it is correct based on
the law*.

Feel free to ask questions.  I actually enjoy this stuff.
Neal

Neal Schlein
Youth Services Librarian, Mahomet Public Library


Currently reading: *The Different Girl* by Gordon Dahlquist
Currently learning: How to set up an automated email system.

On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 2:54 PM, Colin Hume via Callers <
callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> On Sat, 23 Jan 2016 10:47:04 -0500, Tom Hinds via Callers wrote:
> > My understanding is that here in the US choreography can't be
> > protected by law but the written word or the description of it can
> > be legally copyrighted.
> >
> > It would be interesting to know what the law is in the UK.
>
> My understanding is that it's the same here.  But when we've discussed
> copyright on lists the usual conclusion is that there just isn't
> enough money in it for anyone to make a fuss no matter what happens!
>
> Colin Hume
>
>
> ___
> Callers mailing list
> Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
>

Re: [Callers] Choreography and Copyright

[Read Weaver via Callers]

Well, maybe. But:

"Congress has stated that the subject matter of choreography does not include 
‘‘social dance steps and simple routines.’’ H.R. Rep. 94–1476 at 54 (1976). A 
compilation of simple routines, social dances, or even exercises would not be 
registrable unless it results in a category of copyrightable authorship. A mere 
compilation of physical movements does not rise to the level of choreographic 
authorship unless it contains sufficient attributes of a work of choreography. 
And although a choreographic work, such as a ballet or abstract modern dance, 
may incorporate simple routines, social dances, or even exercise routines as 
elements of the overall work, the mere selection and arrangement of physical 
movements does not in itself support a claim of choreographic authorship.”
From the Copyright Office, CFR Part 201 (in Federal Register 77(121):37605-08 
(6/22/2012))

Case law (which might exist but I’d be surprised) would start to clarify 
whether a new contra dance would “contain sufficient attributes of a work of 
choreography,” but the explicit exclusion of “social dance steps” says to me 
it’s not straightforward. My own guess is that a judge who understands social 
dance would instruct a jury toward “yes, copyrightable,” and one who didn’t 
would rely on this language and instruct toward “no, not copyrightable."

But bear in mind http://smbc-comics.com/comics/20070314.gif 


--Read Weaver

> On Jan 25, 2016, at 4:11 AM, Neal Schlein via Callers 
>  wrote:
> 
> Since the original question had two points, about legal and moral standing,  
> I'll answer the legal part:
> 
> The short answer is NO YOU MAY NOT WITHOUT PERMISSION. 
> 
> US law is both extremely clear and exceptionally vague.  The clear parts:
> 1.  Any new creative work that is set down in a fixed form is instantly 
> copyrighted.  There is a bare minimum of creativity needed to generate 
> copyrightable material.
> 2.  Dance choreography is a copyrightable form.
> 3. The following acts are SOLELY allowed to the copyright holder or 
> specifically licensed user:  performance, reproduction, reprinting, 
> publishing,  public display, broadcast, recording, creation of a derivative 
> work.  I may have forgotten a few.  
> 4. US copyright law has no moral requirements; it is purely financial and 
> transactional in nature.  You have no legal moral requirement (whatever that 
> means...) to acknowledge the author's wishes or even identify them as the 
> author.  In Europe this is different.
> 5. There is no mechanism established in US copyright law for a person to 
> place an item into the public domain, nor for unclaimed and otherwise orphan 
> works except if they clearly fall into the public domain due to age.  See 
> Creative Commons for an attempted fix.
> 6.  If an item is not registered with the Copyright Office, you can only sue 
> for actual damages and demand cessation.  (Usually neither worth it nor 
> desired in our world.)  If an item has been registered with the Copyright 
> Office, you can sue for many thousands of dollars, plus court costs and 
> actual damages.
> 7.  There are no provisions for traditional or folk material or forms, and 
> very little case law.
> 
> So, all modern contra dances are copyrighted works, and under the main part 
> of the law it is clear that you may not legally publish, reprint, call 
> (perform), or video tape them without permission from the copyright holder 
> (this is not necessarily the author).
> 
> The unclear part:
> The Fair Use provision allows for anyone to use copyrighted material without 
> permission in any of the otherwise prohibited ways...under unspecified 
> circumstances, according to at least four criteria that must be applied to 
> each individual situation and weighted uniquely by a judge, and which can 
> only be determined with certainty for a given case by the Supreme Court.  So, 
> basically useless as a planning guide.
> 
> 
> Whether you think the above should be true or not, it is correct based on the 
> law.  
> 
> Feel free to ask questions.  I actually enjoy this stuff.
> Neal
> 
> Neal Schlein
> Youth Services Librarian, Mahomet Public Library
> 
> 
> Currently reading: The Different Girl by Gordon Dahlquist
> Currently learning: How to set up an automated email system.
> 
> On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 2:54 PM, Colin Hume via Callers 
> mailto:callers@lists.sharedweight.net>> 
> wrote:
> On Sat, 23 Jan 2016 10:47:04 -0500, Tom Hinds via Callers wrote:
> > My understanding is that here in the US choreography can't be
> > protected by law but the written word or the description of it can
> > be legally copyrighted.
> >
> > It would be interesting to know what the law is in the UK.
> 
> My understanding is that it's the same here.  But when we've discussed
> copyright on lists the usual conclusion is that there just isn't
> enough money in it for anyone to make a fuss no matter what happens!
> 
> Colin Hume

Re: [Callers] Choreography and Copyright

[Jeff Kaufman via Callers]

Here's a post I wrote a couple years ago summarizing what I found when I
looked into this: http://www.jefftk.com/p/can-you-copyright-a-contra-dance
On Jan 25, 2016 8:22 AM, "Read Weaver via Callers" <
callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> Well, maybe. But:
>
> "Congress has stated that the subject matter of choreography does not
> include ‘‘social dance steps and simple routines.’’ H.R. Rep. 94–1476 at 54
> (1976). A compilation of simple routines, social dances, or even exercises
> would not be registrable unless it results in a category of copyrightable
> authorship. A mere compilation of physical movements does not rise to the
> level of choreographic authorship unless it contains sufficient attributes
> of a work of choreography. And although a choreographic work, such as a
> ballet or abstract modern dance, may incorporate simple routines, social
> dances, or even exercise routines as elements of the overall work, the mere
> selection and arrangement of physical movements does not in itself support
> a claim of choreographic authorship.”
> From the Copyright Office, CFR Part 201 (in Federal Register
> 77(121):37605-08 (6/22/2012))
>
> Case law (which might exist but I’d be surprised) would start to clarify
> whether a new contra dance would “contain sufficient attributes of a work
> of choreography,” but the explicit exclusion of “social dance steps” says
> to me it’s not straightforward. My own guess is that a judge who
> understands social dance would instruct a jury toward “yes, copyrightable,”
> and one who didn’t would rely on this language and instruct toward “no, not
> copyrightable."
>
> But bear in mind http://smbc-comics.com/comics/20070314.gif
>
> --Read Weaver
>
> On Jan 25, 2016, at 4:11 AM, Neal Schlein via Callers <
> callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
> Since the original question had two points, about legal and moral
> standing,  I'll answer the legal part:
>
> The short answer is NO YOU MAY NOT WITHOUT PERMISSION.
>
> US law is both extremely clear and exceptionally vague.  The clear parts:
> 1.  Any new creative work that is set down in a fixed form is instantly
> copyrighted.  There is a bare minimum of creativity needed to generate
> copyrightable material.
> 2.  Dance choreography is a copyrightable form.
> 3. The following acts are SOLELY allowed to the copyright holder or
> specifically licensed user:  performance, reproduction, reprinting,
> publishing,  public display, broadcast, recording, creation of a derivative
> work.  I may have forgotten a few.
> 4. US copyright law has no moral requirements; it is purely financial and
> transactional in nature.  You have no legal moral requirement (whatever
> that means...) to acknowledge the author's wishes or even identify them as
> the author.  In Europe this is different.
> 5. There is no mechanism established in US copyright law for a person to
> place an item into the public domain, nor for unclaimed and otherwise
> orphan works except if they clearly fall into the public domain due to
> age.  See Creative Commons for an attempted fix.
> 6.  If an item is not registered with the Copyright Office, you can only
> sue for actual damages and demand cessation.  (Usually neither worth it nor
> desired in our world.)  If an item has been registered with the Copyright
> Office, you can sue for many thousands of dollars, plus court costs and
> actual damages.
> 7.  There are no provisions for traditional or folk material or forms, and
> very little case law.
>
> So, all modern contra dances are copyrighted works, and under the main
> part of the law it is clear that you may not legally publish, reprint, call
> (perform), or video tape them without permission from the copyright holder
> (this is not necessarily the author).
>
> The unclear part:
> The Fair Use provision allows for anyone to use copyrighted material
> without permission in any of the otherwise prohibited ways...under
> unspecified circumstances, according to at least four criteria that must be
> applied to each individual situation and weighted uniquely by a judge, and
> which can only be determined with certainty for a given case by the Supreme
> Court.  So, basically useless as a planning guide.
>
>
> *Whether you think the above should be true or not, it is correct based on
> the law*.
>
> Feel free to ask questions.  I actually enjoy this stuff.
> Neal
>
> Neal Schlein
> Youth Services Librarian, Mahomet Public Library
>
>
> Currently reading: *The Different Girl* by Gordon Dahlquist
> Currently learning: How to set up an automated email system.
>
> On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 2:54 PM, Colin Hume via Callers <
> callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 23 Jan 2016 10:47:04 -0500, Tom Hinds via Callers wrote:
>> > My understanding is that here in the US choreography can't be
>> > protected by law but the written word or the description of it can
>> > be legally copyrighted.
>> >
>> > It would be interesting to know what the law is in the UK.
>>
>> My un

Re: [Callers] Choreography and Copyright

[Dave Casserly via Callers]

Neal, I disagree with what you've said.  As Read's reply and Jeff's post
point out, actually, contra dances might not be considered dance
choreography under the statute.  And, if I were a judge looking at it, I'd
say it isn't.  Contra dances might have one or two unique moves, but that
is much, much less original than choreography of a ballet, etc.  My reading
of the statute is that Congress meant the latter, not the former,
particularly given the exclusion of social dance steps.

But, I'm not sure about that reading, and my point in emailing is to say
that you shouldn't be sure either.  As Read mentioned, this is the kind of
thing we don't know for sure until somebody decides a case (it would be a
judge, not a jury, but that's beside the point).  I'd caution everybody on
the list, particularly non-lawyers, from giving legal conclusions and
saying things like "it is correct based on the law."  Neal, your
conclusions probably aren't correct, but maybe they are.  I don't practice
copyright law, but even if I did, I highly doubt I'd know a sure answer.

But one thing your post points out is important to keep in mind.  You can
only sue for actual damages if the copyright's unregistered.  From this, I
take two points.  One, since I'm not aware of anybody ever registering a
contra dance, it's very unlikely that anybody would be able to show
sufficient harm from somebody else's use of that dance to actually win a
case.  So, it's totally not worth suing over.  Two, sometimes people sue
over things that are not worth suing over, so it's probably also worth it
to make a minimum effort to contact dance authors.  It doesn't hurt
anything to do so and only takes a few seconds.  I'm not aware of any dance
caller who has asked somebody not to call their dance.  Publish, sure,
people might not want you to, but call it?  That's why people write dances.

On Mon, Jan 25, 2016 at 4:11 AM, Neal Schlein via Callers <
callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> Since the original question had two points, about legal and moral
> standing,  I'll answer the legal part:
>
> The short answer is NO YOU MAY NOT WITHOUT PERMISSION.
>
> US law is both extremely clear and exceptionally vague.  The clear parts:
> 1.  Any new creative work that is set down in a fixed form is instantly
> copyrighted.  There is a bare minimum of creativity needed to generate
> copyrightable material.
> 2.  Dance choreography is a copyrightable form.
> 3. The following acts are SOLELY allowed to the copyright holder or
> specifically licensed user:  performance, reproduction, reprinting,
> publishing,  public display, broadcast, recording, creation of a derivative
> work.  I may have forgotten a few.
> 4. US copyright law has no moral requirements; it is purely financial and
> transactional in nature.  You have no legal moral requirement (whatever
> that means...) to acknowledge the author's wishes or even identify them as
> the author.  In Europe this is different.
> 5. There is no mechanism established in US copyright law for a person to
> place an item into the public domain, nor for unclaimed and otherwise
> orphan works except if they clearly fall into the public domain due to
> age.  See Creative Commons for an attempted fix.
> 6.  If an item is not registered with the Copyright Office, you can only
> sue for actual damages and demand cessation.  (Usually neither worth it nor
> desired in our world.)  If an item has been registered with the Copyright
> Office, you can sue for many thousands of dollars, plus court costs and
> actual damages.
> 7.  There are no provisions for traditional or folk material or forms, and
> very little case law.
>
> So, all modern contra dances are copyrighted works, and under the main
> part of the law it is clear that you may not legally publish, reprint, call
> (perform), or video tape them without permission from the copyright holder
> (this is not necessarily the author).
>
> The unclear part:
> The Fair Use provision allows for anyone to use copyrighted material
> without permission in any of the otherwise prohibited ways...under
> unspecified circumstances, according to at least four criteria that must be
> applied to each individual situation and weighted uniquely by a judge, and
> which can only be determined with certainty for a given case by the Supreme
> Court.  So, basically useless as a planning guide.
>
>
> *Whether you think the above should be true or not, it is correct based on
> the law*.
>
> Feel free to ask questions.  I actually enjoy this stuff.
> Neal
>
> Neal Schlein
> Youth Services Librarian, Mahomet Public Library
>
>
> Currently reading: *The Different Girl* by Gordon Dahlquist
> Currently learning: How to set up an automated email system.
>
> On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 2:54 PM, Colin Hume via Callers <
> callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 23 Jan 2016 10:47:04 -0500, Tom Hinds via Callers wrote:
>> > My understanding is that here in the US choreography can't be
>> > protected by law but