Re: [Callers] Politically Correct?

[Woody Lane via Callers]

Hi Tom,

Sure. The first paragraph describes the current situation regarding the 
use of a controversial single word.


The second paragraph steps back and looks at the bigger picture within 
our community. My speculation that the animus and hard feelings that 
this word has elicited among callers, organizers, and dancers may result 
in pressures to "standardize" terms. The logic then is by whom, then the 
move to setup an organization with some sort of 
standardization/certification/controlling power, etc. Hence the 
historical precedent of Callerlab.


Woody



On 3/30/2018 12:23 PM, Tom Hinds wrote:

Woody, I really don't understand your question.  Please connect the dots.

Sent from my iPad


On Mar 30, 2018, at 2:20 AM, Woody Lane via Callers 
 wrote:

Hi Tom,

Earlier this year in Eugene, a caller was struggling with trying to be extra careful with 
alternative terms for gypsy. She referred to the "g-word" and then tried using other 
terms. She was actually trying to demonstrate something else on the floor. The crowd said in a 
friendly way but very clearly -- we don't care, just use the word "gypsy"! And then she 
did, people relaxed, and the evening progressed smoothly.

The intensity and animus of these conversations may have unintended long-term 
consequences in the contra dance world. Does anyone really want to establish 
the contra equivalent of Callerlab?

Woody


On 3/28/2018 11:58 AM, Tom Hinds via Callers wrote:
I've had very good conversations with Rich on and off the discussion group and 
feel that he shares many of my values. Would you rather that I and others not 
participate? Perhaps that is the primary reason that some of us aren't 
comfortable with PC. Where does it end and what freedoms am I going to have to 
give up? My memory is that this incredible discussion started with a complaint 
from ONE person.
Lastly let me suggest this after reading Jeffrey's very good email:  It may be 
that terms like gypsy (and of course others) are location dependent.  Here in 
Charlottesville and perhaps DC people don't really care for the gypsy issue.   
In other areas perhaps that's not the case.  On the English list people are 
reminded that folks from many countries are members and that we should keep 
this in mind.


___
List Name:  Callers mailing list
List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/

Re: [Callers] Politically Correct?contra lab.

[Tom Hinds via Callers]

Rich,

I'm not clear why Woody's question is directed to me.  And I see he's 
indicating that's this long involved conversation about terminology is related 
to creating a callerlab for contra.  I'm not clear on his thinking so I suppose 
I'll have to hear from him before honestly responding

This fear of having a contralab (which I believe actually exists or existed for 
western contra) has caused some concern for many of us for years.  Back in 2011 
I wrote a booklet on contra choreography and included a couple of pages on why 
that simply couldn't happen.  If I have the time I'll send it to y'all.

Tom HInds

Sent from my iPad

> On Mar 30, 2018, at 3:33 PM, Rich Sbardella  wrote:
> 
> As a member of Callerlab for 25 years, I can answer Woody's question with a 
> definitive "NO".
> 
> Callerlab does offer many benefits, but it has its drawbacks as well.  
> Standardization was supposed to be a good thing, and perhaps in the MWSD 
> world that is more good than bad, but it also diminishes the regional 
> differences of dance, and limits the expression and flexibilities of callers. 
>  There is also an organization called ContraLab, and thankfully its reach is 
> limited.
> 
> Rich Sbardella
> Stafford, CT
> 
> 
> 
>> On Fri, Mar 30, 2018 at 3:23 PM, Tom Hinds via Callers 
>>  wrote:
>> Woody, I really don't understand your question.  Please connect the dots.
>> 
>> Sent from my iPad
>> 
>> > On Mar 30, 2018, at 2:20 AM, Woody Lane via Callers 
>> >  wrote:
>> >
>> > Hi Tom,
>> >
>> > Earlier this year in Eugene, a caller was struggling with trying to be 
>> > extra careful with alternative terms for gypsy. She referred to the 
>> > "g-word" and then tried using other terms. She was actually trying to 
>> > demonstrate something else on the floor. The crowd said in a friendly way 
>> > but very clearly -- we don't care, just use the word "gypsy"! And then she 
>> > did, people relaxed, and the evening progressed smoothly.
>> >
>> > The intensity and animus of these conversations may have unintended 
>> > long-term consequences in the contra dance world. Does anyone really want 
>> > to establish the contra equivalent of Callerlab?
>> >
>> > Woody
>> >
>> >> On 3/28/2018 11:58 AM, Tom Hinds via Callers wrote:
>> >> I've had very good conversations with Rich on and off the discussion 
>> >> group and feel that he shares many of my values. Would you rather that I 
>> >> and others not participate? Perhaps that is the primary reason that some 
>> >> of us aren't comfortable with PC. Where does it end and what freedoms am 
>> >> I going to have to give up? My memory is that this incredible discussion 
>> >> started with a complaint from ONE person.
>> >> Lastly let me suggest this after reading Jeffrey's very good email:  It 
>> >> may be that terms like gypsy (and of course others) are location 
>> >> dependent.  Here in Charlottesville and perhaps DC people don't really 
>> >> care for the gypsy issue.   In other areas perhaps that's not the case.  
>> >> On the English list people are reminded that folks from many countries 
>> >> are members and that we should keep this in mind.
>> > ___
>> > List Name:  Callers mailing list
>> > List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
>> > Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
>> 
>> ___
>> List Name:  Callers mailing list
>> List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
>> Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
> 
___
List Name:  Callers mailing list
List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/

Re: [Callers] Politically Correct?

[Rich Sbardella via Callers]

As a member of Callerlab for 25 years, I can answer Woody's question with a
definitive "NO".

Callerlab does offer many benefits, but it has its drawbacks as well.
Standardization was supposed to be a good thing, and perhaps in the MWSD
world that is more good than bad, but it also diminishes the regional
differences of dance, and limits the expression and flexibilities of
callers.  There is also an organization called ContraLab, and thankfully
its reach is limited.

Rich Sbardella
Stafford, CT



On Fri, Mar 30, 2018 at 3:23 PM, Tom Hinds via Callers <
callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> Woody, I really don't understand your question.  Please connect the dots.
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> > On Mar 30, 2018, at 2:20 AM, Woody Lane via Callers <
> callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Tom,
> >
> > Earlier this year in Eugene, a caller was struggling with trying to be
> extra careful with alternative terms for gypsy. She referred to the
> "g-word" and then tried using other terms. She was actually trying to
> demonstrate something else on the floor. The crowd said in a friendly way
> but very clearly -- we don't care, just use the word "gypsy"! And then she
> did, people relaxed, and the evening progressed smoothly.
> >
> > The intensity and animus of these conversations may have unintended
> long-term consequences in the contra dance world. Does anyone really want
> to establish the contra equivalent of Callerlab?
> >
> > Woody
> >
> >> On 3/28/2018 11:58 AM, Tom Hinds via Callers wrote:
> >> I've had very good conversations with Rich on and off the discussion
> group and feel that he shares many of my values. Would you rather that I
> and others not participate? Perhaps that is the primary reason that some of
> us aren't comfortable with PC. Where does it end and what freedoms am I
> going to have to give up? My memory is that this incredible discussion
> started with a complaint from ONE person.
> >> Lastly let me suggest this after reading Jeffrey's very good email:  It
> may be that terms like gypsy (and of course others) are location
> dependent.  Here in Charlottesville and perhaps DC people don't really care
> for the gypsy issue.   In other areas perhaps that's not the case.  On the
> English list people are reminded that folks from many countries are members
> and that we should keep this in mind.
> > ___
> > List Name:  Callers mailing list
> > List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
> > Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
>
> ___
> List Name:  Callers mailing list
> List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
> Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
>
___
List Name:  Callers mailing list
List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/

Re: [Callers] Politically Correct?

[Tom Hinds via Callers]

Woody, I really don't understand your question.  Please connect the dots.

Sent from my iPad

> On Mar 30, 2018, at 2:20 AM, Woody Lane via Callers 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi Tom,
> 
> Earlier this year in Eugene, a caller was struggling with trying to be extra 
> careful with alternative terms for gypsy. She referred to the "g-word" and 
> then tried using other terms. She was actually trying to demonstrate 
> something else on the floor. The crowd said in a friendly way but very 
> clearly -- we don't care, just use the word "gypsy"! And then she did, people 
> relaxed, and the evening progressed smoothly.
> 
> The intensity and animus of these conversations may have unintended long-term 
> consequences in the contra dance world. Does anyone really want to establish 
> the contra equivalent of Callerlab?
> 
> Woody
> 
>> On 3/28/2018 11:58 AM, Tom Hinds via Callers wrote:
>> I've had very good conversations with Rich on and off the discussion group 
>> and feel that he shares many of my values. Would you rather that I and 
>> others not participate? Perhaps that is the primary reason that some of us 
>> aren't comfortable with PC. Where does it end and what freedoms am I going 
>> to have to give up? My memory is that this incredible discussion started 
>> with a complaint from ONE person.
>> Lastly let me suggest this after reading Jeffrey's very good email:  It may 
>> be that terms like gypsy (and of course others) are location dependent.  
>> Here in Charlottesville and perhaps DC people don't really care for the 
>> gypsy issue.   In other areas perhaps that's not the case.  On the English 
>> list people are reminded that folks from many countries are members and that 
>> we should keep this in mind.
> ___
> List Name:  Callers mailing list
> List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
> Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/

___
List Name:  Callers mailing list
List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/

Re: [Callers] Politically Correct?

[Woody Lane via Callers]

Hi Tom,

Earlier this year in Eugene, a caller was struggling with trying to be 
extra careful with alternative terms for gypsy. She referred to the 
"g-word" and then tried using other terms. She was actually trying to 
demonstrate something else on the floor. The crowd said in a friendly 
way but very clearly -- we don't care, just use the word "gypsy"! And 
then she did, people relaxed, and the evening progressed smoothly.


The intensity and animus of these conversations may have unintended 
long-term consequences in the contra dance world. Does anyone really 
want to establish the contra equivalent of Callerlab?


Woody

On 3/28/2018 11:58 AM, Tom Hinds via Callers wrote:
I've had very good conversations with Rich on and off the discussion 
group and feel that he shares many of my values. Would you rather that 
I and others not participate? Perhaps that is the primary reason that 
some of us aren't comfortable with PC. Where does it end and what 
freedoms am I going to have to give up? My memory is that this 
incredible discussion started with a complaint from ONE person.

Lastly let me suggest this after reading Jeffrey's very good email:  It may be 
that terms like gypsy (and of course others) are location dependent.  Here in 
Charlottesville and perhaps DC people don't really care for the gypsy issue.   
In other areas perhaps that's not the case.  On the English list people are 
reminded that folks from many countries are members and that we should keep 
this in mind.
___
List Name:  Callers mailing list
List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/

Re: [Callers] Politically Correct?

[Ron Blechner via Callers]

I'm going to respect Rich's request to not discuss the broader topic on
this thread anymore.

I'd be happy to continue the discussion in a separate thread or private
email.

Best regards,
Ron Blechner

On Thu, Mar 29, 2018, 11:07 AM Donna Hunt  wrote:

> Ron: Would you please be more specific?  There's not enough information
> here for me to understand what you're claiming, nor to clarify it, and I
> find it frustrating and misleading in it's generality.
>
> I'm going to assume that you not only mean callers in these areas but are
> also speaking of dances in these specific areas.  New England covers
> several states and has lots of dances.  New York?  City or State?  How many
> dances in Seattle and the Bay Area?  How many is "several"?  And "these
> dances are thriving amidst a decline..."?   Without details I cannot
> support your claims.
>
> In New England, New York, Seattle, and the Bay Area, many callers have
> been examining terminology and changing. Several dance series have gone
> genderfree without being specifically chartered as LGBTQ dances. Not
> coincidentally, these dances are thriving amidst a decline of attendance of
> contra in general.
>
>
>
> Donna Hunt
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Ron Blechner via Callers 
> To: Jeffrey Spero 
> Cc: callers@lists.sharedweight.net 
> Sent: Wed, Mar 28, 2018 12:47 pm
> Subject: Re: [Callers] Politically Correct?
>
> Hi Jeff,
>
> I think your understanding of there being "no to little movement" is
> inaccurate.
>
> In New England, New York, Seattle, and the Bay Area, many callers have
> been examining terminology and changing. Several dance series have gone
> genderfree without being specifically chartered as LGBTQ dances. Not
> coincidentally, these dances are thriving amidst a decline of attendance of
> contra in general.
>
> Many dances are also taking up safety policies before and after the #metoo
> movement, despite plenty of resistance for years of some people insisting
> that contra is a happy place where there's no harassment.
>
> So yes, you're correct that these discussions have been happening for
> years, true, but they have also been producing tangible change in many
> places.
>
> ...
>
>
> I might also like to disagree with your implication that everyone is
> responsible for "arguing about it". We callers who have swapped terms for
> g*pay, for example, have long since moved on.
>
> In the case of this original post, Rich was asking for practical advice,
> and there *was no* argument until a couple choice people started throwing
> shade at those of us who think changing the lyrics from "she was a young
> thing" to "she was a young girl" is an easy swap that doesn't diminish the
> tradition, but also reduces the objectification of women.
>
> In dance,
> Ron Blechner
>
>
___
List Name:  Callers mailing list
List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/

Re: [Callers] Politically Correct?

[Donna Hunt via Callers]

Ron: Would you please be more specific?  There's not enough information here 
for me to understand what you're claiming, nor to clarify it, and I find it 
frustrating and misleading in it's generality.

I'm going to assume that you not only mean callers in these areas but are also 
speaking of dances in these specific areas.  New England covers several states 
and has lots of dances.  New York?  City or State?  How many dances in Seattle 
and the Bay Area?  How many is "several"?  And "these dances are thriving 
amidst a decline..."?   Without details I cannot support your claims.

 


In New England, New York, Seattle, and the Bay Area, many callers have been 
examining terminology and changing. Several dance series have gone genderfree 
without being specifically chartered as LGBTQ dances. Not coincidentally, these 
dances are thriving amidst a decline of attendance of contra in general.

 

Donna Hunt  

 

 

 

-Original Message-
From: Ron Blechner via Callers 
To: Jeffrey Spero 
Cc: callers@lists.sharedweight.net 
Sent: Wed, Mar 28, 2018 12:47 pm
Subject: Re: [Callers] Politically Correct?



Hi Jeff,


I think your understanding of there being "no to little movement" is inaccurate.


In New England, New York, Seattle, and the Bay Area, many callers have been 
examining terminology and changing. Several dance series have gone genderfree 
without being specifically chartered as LGBTQ dances. Not coincidentally, these 
dances are thriving amidst a decline of attendance of contra in general.


Many dances are also taking up safety policies before and after the #metoo 
movement, despite plenty of resistance for years of some people insisting that 
contra is a happy place where there's no harassment.


So yes, you're correct that these discussions have been happening for years, 
true, but they have also been producing tangible change in many places.


...




I might also like to disagree with your implication that everyone is 
responsible for "arguing about it". We callers who have swapped terms for 
g*pay, for example, have long since moved on.


In the case of this original post, Rich was asking for practical advice, and 
there *was no* argument until a couple choice people started throwing shade at 
those of us who think changing the lyrics from "she was a young thing" to "she 
was a young girl" is an easy swap that doesn't diminish the tradition, but also 
reduces the objectification of women.


In dance,
Ron Blechner



___
List Name:  Callers mailing list
List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/

Re: [Callers] Politically Correct?

[Rich Sbardella via Callers]

Folks,

I began this discussion as a simple question with no intention of creating
a debate on gender terms.  I simply wanted to know if the lyrics ,in the
context of a traditional song, were going to cause offense to any contra
dancers.  I think I had my answer early on.

If we choose to continue this conversation let's do it with respect for
each other, but I believe conversations like this are best held in face to
face round tables.  Emails make it hard to feel the emotion of the writer,
and to see that writer as a person, who too, deserves much respect.

Without pontificating, I do want to say, in my few short years in the
contra community, ALL the callers I have met have treated the dancers, and
each other, with great respect.  We have a lot more in common than we have
as differences.  We must remember traditions within dance communities
vary.  Our way is just one way.

Now, as a caller who often calls singing squares, I find that changing the
words of a popular song, changes the way dancers respond to that square
 They expect certain words and changing them leaves many feeling cheated or
disappointed.  Try changing the song Marianne to say "All day, all night,
my Caroline" and you will know what I mean.  IMHO, it is better not to use
a song than to change the tag line significantly.  (In MWSD the tag line is
the lyric that is sung during the 16 step promenades, and it is most often
the most common, or repeated lyric in the song.)

Thanks for all your thoughtful responses.

Rich
Stafford, CT





On Wed, Mar 28, 2018 at 1:12 PM, Dorcas Hand via Callers <
callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> Louise has hit the nail on the head: "I’d love everyone to dance for the
> pure joy of it, but the idea that we can get “back” to that place, rather
> than move forward to it, is a myth." Me too (yup), and there is no easy
> path to get there. We must keep talking - just like in the broader world of
> politics. Talking does/can get frustrating and circular, but it also opens
> minds and keeps people thinking about how to be together better.
>
> Meanwhile, together let's forge a path - maybe of many sortof parallel
> lanes - to move forward to dancing in joy.
> Dorcas Hand
> Houston
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Callers  On Behalf Of
> Louise Siddons via Callers
> Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2018 10:49 AM
> To: call...@sharedweight.net
> Subject: Re: [Callers] Politically Correct?
>
> I have a friend who danced for the pure joy of it until he got sick of
> being asked why a black man wanted to contra dance. I dance with more,
> purer joy now that fewer men “offer” to split me up from my girlfriend when
> we join a line together.
>
> I’d love everyone to dance for the pure joy of it, but the idea that we
> can get “back” to that place, rather than move forward to it, is a myth.
>
> Louise.
> www.scissortail.org
>
> > On Mar 28, 2018, at 4:43 PM, Jeffrey Spero via Callers <
> callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
> >
> > Can we just get back to dancing for the pure joy of it?
> >
> ___
> List Name:  Callers mailing list
> List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
> Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
> ___
> List Name:  Callers mailing list
> List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
> Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
>
___
List Name:  Callers mailing list
List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/

Re: [Callers] Politically Correct?

[Dave Casserly via Callers]

Tom,

Ron's point wasn't that changing terminology in some dances has been
beneficial; his point was simply that the terminology has indeed changed in
some dances, and he gave exactly the right amount of data necessary to
support that point.  If you want to go do your own study on whether it has
been helpful in attracting new dancers, please feel free; I'd be interested
in knowing.

Since you've asked for data from Ron, it seems like it's important to you
to know the effects of changing terminology.  So I do want to correct one
point that you've made, which is that people groaned in DC when you said
you would try to replace the word "gypsy" but might slip up sometimes.  I
was there, and I groaned, but I wasn't groaning because I thought it was
ridiculous that a caller would replace the word.  Nor was I groaning at the
prospect of you slipping up; everybody makes mistakes, and I've never heard
anybody complain about a caller using the wrong term when they were trying
their best not to.  I was groaning at your aggrieved tone.  You sounded
like replacing a single one of the hundreds of words you use in contra
dance calls was a huge inconvenience that only unreasonable people would
demand.  I'm sure some people in DC agree with you and would prefer that
callers continue to use the word "gypsy," but that's by no means the
consensus in the community.  Most people seem not to care much one way or
the other.  If you want to know for sure, I'd suggest a poll, set up in
such a way that you're not just asking the people you already know and talk
to.

I'm also not entirely sure what freedoms, exactly, you are giving up when
people get annoyed or offended by the words you say.  Everybody who is not
a sociopath takes at least some care to avoid bothering others.  That
doesn't mean we're all giving up freedoms; it simply means we choose to be
polite.  Nobody has proposed having people who say the word "gypsy"
arrested or fined.

For what it's worth, I also agree with Jeff that we are rehashing arguments
that have already been made on this board over and over again.  Ron was
correct, too, that these arguments have made a difference in some
communities.  That doesn't mean we should keep making exactly the same
arguments every time somebody asks a narrow question about a particular
lyric or call.

And, it seems like your question about the definition of "throwing shade"
was sarcastic, especially since we all have internet access and can read
Urban Dictionary.  But it's tough to tell, so I'll answer.  Throwing shade
is when somebody subtly insults somebody else without bothering to mention
them.  The people who decide to publicly announce to the list that they are
leaving it after one of these discussions are throwing shade at those of us
participating.  I don't think Ron was using the term correctly, really;
actually he was sort of the one throwing shade by saying that others were
doing so without naming names.  I'm sure views can differ on the subject,
and you'll find a plethora of treatises on proper use of the term if you
google it.

-Dave



On Wed, Mar 28, 2018 at 2:58 PM, Tom Hinds via Callers <
callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> Ron,
>
> I keep on reading your writing and see that you often give only partial
> information.  What you write below is interesting:
>
> > In New England, New York, Seattle, and the Bay Area, many callers have
> been examining terminology and changing. Several dance series have gone
> genderfree without being specifically chartered as LGBTQ dances. Not
> coincidentally, these dances are thriving amidst a decline of attendance of
> contra in general.
>
> My own preference is for you to give more information and not let us fill
> in the pieces.  For instance in the areas that you list above, was there a
> decline in attendance while callers were using calls like gypsy and other
> words like men and women?  If attendance did in fact dip, did it in fact
> pick up again when alternative words were used? Might be cause and effect
> or a correlation or simply coincidence.
>
> If attendance in these areas have always been strong then perhaps there is
> something else at work.
>
> Ive always expected contra dance to die simply because that's the way it
> works.  Come on!  Does anyone need me to spell this out?   If you don't
> believe me, Mr Spock, in one of the Star Trek movies once said, "all things
> must end" and I think he's pretty smart!
>
> Ron, I must also ask you about what you wrote below.  It's not perfectly
> clear and of course nobody is named but my take is that some of us (or
> me?)have ruined your party by not going along with what you and others
> want?  Perhaps I don't understand.  Would you please care to explain?
>
> > In the case of this original post, Rich was asking for practical advice,
> and there *was no* argument until a couple choice people started throwing
> shade at those of us who think changing the lyrics from "she was a young
> thing" to "she was a young girl" 

Re: [Callers] Politically Correct?

[Tom Hinds via Callers]

Yes in DC I have noticed one or two cross gendered people attending and some, 
not many gay folks too.  Perhaps these populations are finding contra for the 
first time or finding out that it's a safe place to have fun.

I used to remodel houses in the DC area with a cross gendered person.  There 
weren't many places for him to go to socialize.



Sent from my iPad

> On Mar 28, 2018, at 3:12 PM, Alexandra Deis-Lauby  
> wrote:
> 
> In NYC there are more dances now then there ever have been in the past.  They 
> are all pretty progressive in Dance roles. Two are gender free and one is not 
> but has a significant majority of dancers that dance both roles and lots who 
> dance with everyone. 
> Attendance fluctuates so it’s hard to tell, but right now we seem to be on a 
> slight up taking into account the higher frequency of dances. 
> 
> Portland, ME had a thriving gender free dance that as I understand it came 
> about as the older, more traditional Dance wound down- maybe someone else 
> with more knowledge will jump in. 
> 
> The Chicago scene has added two dances in the last year. Their queer dance is 
> growing, their regular dance that is very encouraging of people Dancing both 
> roles is growing, and the two new series (one revived) are on college 
> campuses.  When I was dancing there Several years ago, the groups were less 
> into progressive concepts. The groups were smaller.  Correlation? Maybe so. 
> 
> Thanks Ron, Louise, Maia and Jen for the thoughtful responses. 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Mar 28, 2018, at 2:58 PM, Tom Hinds via Callers 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Ron,
>> 
>> I keep on reading your writing and see that you often give only partial 
>> information.  What you write below is interesting:
>> 
>>> In New England, New York, Seattle, and the Bay Area, many callers have been 
>>> examining terminology and changing. Several dance series have gone 
>>> genderfree without being specifically chartered as LGBTQ dances. Not 
>>> coincidentally, these dances are thriving amidst a decline of attendance of 
>>> contra in general.
>> 
>> My own preference is for you to give more information and not let us fill in 
>> the pieces.  For instance in the areas that you list above, was there a 
>> decline in attendance while callers were using calls like gypsy and other 
>> words like men and women?  If attendance did in fact dip, did it in fact 
>> pick up again when alternative words were used? Might be cause and effect or 
>> a correlation or simply coincidence.  
>> 
>> If attendance in these areas have always been strong then perhaps there is 
>> something else at work. 
>> 
>> Ive always expected contra dance to die simply because that's the way it 
>> works.  Come on!  Does anyone need me to spell this out?   If you don't 
>> believe me, Mr Spock, in one of the Star Trek movies once said, "all things 
>> must end" and I think he's pretty smart!
>> 
>> Ron, I must also ask you about what you wrote below.  It's not perfectly 
>> clear and of course nobody is named but my take is that some of us (or 
>> me?)have ruined your party by not going along with what you and others want? 
>>  Perhaps I don't understand.  Would you please care to explain?
>> 
>>> In the case of this original post, Rich was asking for practical advice, 
>>> and there *was no* argument until a couple choice people started throwing 
>>> shade at those of us who think changing the lyrics from "she was a young 
>>> thing" to "she was a young girl" is an easy swap that doesn't diminish the 
>>> tradition, but also reduces the objectification of women.
>> 
>> What does throwing shade mean?   Does it mean that the sun was shining on 
>> you and that someone blocked the sun?  I'm afraid my college degree is from 
>> an applied institution so I'd appreciate it if you could keep it simple for 
>> me in the future.
>> 
>> I've had very good conversations with Rich on and off the discussion group 
>> and feel that he shares many of my values.  Would you rather that I and 
>> others not participate?  Perhaps that is the primary reason that some of us 
>> aren't comfortable with PC.  Where does it end and what freedoms am I going 
>> to have to give up?  My memory is that this incredible discussion started 
>> with a complaint from ONE person.
>> 
>> Lastly let me suggest this after reading Jeffrey's very good email:  It may 
>> be that terms like gypsy (and of course others) are location dependent.  
>> Here in Charlottesville and perhaps DC people don't really care for the 
>> gypsy issue.   In other areas perhaps that's not the case.  On the English 
>> list people are reminded that folks from many countries are members and that 
>> we should keep this in mind.
>> 
>> You want fries with that?
>> 
>> Tom
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> List Name:  Callers mailing list
>> List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
>> Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/cal

Re: [Callers] Politically Correct?

[Alexandra Deis-Lauby via Callers]

In NYC there are more dances now then there ever have been in the past.  They 
are all pretty progressive in Dance roles. Two are gender free and one is not 
but has a significant majority of dancers that dance both roles and lots who 
dance with everyone. 
Attendance fluctuates so it’s hard to tell, but right now we seem to be on a 
slight up taking into account the higher frequency of dances. 

Portland, ME had a thriving gender free dance that as I understand it came 
about as the older, more traditional Dance wound down- maybe someone else with 
more knowledge will jump in. 

The Chicago scene has added two dances in the last year. Their queer dance is 
growing, their regular dance that is very encouraging of people Dancing both 
roles is growing, and the two new series (one revived) are on college campuses. 
 When I was dancing there Several years ago, the groups were less into 
progressive concepts. The groups were smaller.  Correlation? Maybe so. 

Thanks Ron, Louise, Maia and Jen for the thoughtful responses. 


Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 28, 2018, at 2:58 PM, Tom Hinds via Callers 
>  wrote:
> 
> Ron,
> 
> I keep on reading your writing and see that you often give only partial 
> information.  What you write below is interesting:
> 
>> In New England, New York, Seattle, and the Bay Area, many callers have been 
>> examining terminology and changing. Several dance series have gone 
>> genderfree without being specifically chartered as LGBTQ dances. Not 
>> coincidentally, these dances are thriving amidst a decline of attendance of 
>> contra in general.
> 
> My own preference is for you to give more information and not let us fill in 
> the pieces.  For instance in the areas that you list above, was there a 
> decline in attendance while callers were using calls like gypsy and other 
> words like men and women?  If attendance did in fact dip, did it in fact pick 
> up again when alternative words were used? Might be cause and effect or a 
> correlation or simply coincidence.  
> 
> If attendance in these areas have always been strong then perhaps there is 
> something else at work. 
> 
> Ive always expected contra dance to die simply because that's the way it 
> works.  Come on!  Does anyone need me to spell this out?   If you don't 
> believe me, Mr Spock, in one of the Star Trek movies once said, "all things 
> must end" and I think he's pretty smart!
> 
> Ron, I must also ask you about what you wrote below.  It's not perfectly 
> clear and of course nobody is named but my take is that some of us (or 
> me?)have ruined your party by not going along with what you and others want?  
> Perhaps I don't understand.  Would you please care to explain?
> 
>> In the case of this original post, Rich was asking for practical advice, and 
>> there *was no* argument until a couple choice people started throwing shade 
>> at those of us who think changing the lyrics from "she was a young thing" to 
>> "she was a young girl" is an easy swap that doesn't diminish the tradition, 
>> but also reduces the objectification of women.
> 
> What does throwing shade mean?   Does it mean that the sun was shining on you 
> and that someone blocked the sun?  I'm afraid my college degree is from an 
> applied institution so I'd appreciate it if you could keep it simple for me 
> in the future.
> 
> I've had very good conversations with Rich on and off the discussion group 
> and feel that he shares many of my values.  Would you rather that I and 
> others not participate?  Perhaps that is the primary reason that some of us 
> aren't comfortable with PC.  Where does it end and what freedoms am I going 
> to have to give up?  My memory is that this incredible discussion started 
> with a complaint from ONE person.
> 
> Lastly let me suggest this after reading Jeffrey's very good email:  It may 
> be that terms like gypsy (and of course others) are location dependent.  Here 
> in Charlottesville and perhaps DC people don't really care for the gypsy 
> issue.   In other areas perhaps that's not the case.  On the English list 
> people are reminded that folks from many countries are members and that we 
> should keep this in mind.
> 
> You want fries with that?
> 
> Tom
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ___
> List Name:  Callers mailing list
> List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
> Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
___
List Name:  Callers mailing list
List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/

Re: [Callers] Politically Correct?

[Tom Hinds via Callers]

Ron,

I keep on reading your writing and see that you often give only partial 
information.  What you write below is interesting:

> In New England, New York, Seattle, and the Bay Area, many callers have been 
> examining terminology and changing. Several dance series have gone genderfree 
> without being specifically chartered as LGBTQ dances. Not coincidentally, 
> these dances are thriving amidst a decline of attendance of contra in general.

My own preference is for you to give more information and not let us fill in 
the pieces.  For instance in the areas that you list above, was there a decline 
in attendance while callers were using calls like gypsy and other words like 
men and women?  If attendance did in fact dip, did it in fact pick up again 
when alternative words were used? Might be cause and effect or a correlation or 
simply coincidence.  

If attendance in these areas have always been strong then perhaps there is 
something else at work. 

Ive always expected contra dance to die simply because that's the way it works. 
 Come on!  Does anyone need me to spell this out?   If you don't believe me, Mr 
Spock, in one of the Star Trek movies once said, "all things must end" and I 
think he's pretty smart!
 
Ron, I must also ask you about what you wrote below.  It's not perfectly clear 
and of course nobody is named but my take is that some of us (or me?)have 
ruined your party by not going along with what you and others want?  Perhaps I 
don't understand.  Would you please care to explain?

> In the case of this original post, Rich was asking for practical advice, and 
> there *was no* argument until a couple choice people started throwing shade 
> at those of us who think changing the lyrics from "she was a young thing" to 
> "she was a young girl" is an easy swap that doesn't diminish the tradition, 
> but also reduces the objectification of women.

What does throwing shade mean?   Does it mean that the sun was shining on you 
and that someone blocked the sun?  I'm afraid my college degree is from an 
applied institution so I'd appreciate it if you could keep it simple for me in 
the future.

I've had very good conversations with Rich on and off the discussion group and 
feel that he shares many of my values.  Would you rather that I and others not 
participate?  Perhaps that is the primary reason that some of us aren't 
comfortable with PC.  Where does it end and what freedoms am I going to have to 
give up?  My memory is that this incredible discussion started with a complaint 
from ONE person.

Lastly let me suggest this after reading Jeffrey's very good email:  It may be 
that terms like gypsy (and of course others) are location dependent.  Here in 
Charlottesville and perhaps DC people don't really care for the gypsy issue.   
In other areas perhaps that's not the case.  On the English list people are 
reminded that folks from many countries are members and that we should keep 
this in mind.

You want fries with that?

Tom












___
List Name:  Callers mailing list
List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/

Re: [Callers] Politically Correct?

[Alan Winston via Callers]

Not that the world at large was waiting for me to weigh in on this, but:

I completely endorse Jen's point that "political correctness" is usually 
used as code for resenting having to treat people with respect.


I completely endorse Louise's point that the past where everyone could 
dance for the pure joy of it is mythical and there has to be change to 
move forward to that place. [The operative word being "everyone"; the 
generally-positive experience that cis-het white guys like me had was 
different from "everyone".]


As a caller I've called gents/ladies, bands/bares, larks/ravens, first 
diagonals/second diagonals (that's for Heather & Rose style gender-free 
English).


I'm still going to nitpick some of  Ron's rather-too-broad statements.


On 3/28/18 9:47 AM, Ron Blechner via Callers wrote:

Hi Jeff,

I think your understanding of there being "no to little movement" is 
inaccurate.


In New England, New York, Seattle, and the Bay Area, many callers have 
been examining terminology and changing. Several dance series have 
gone genderfree without being specifically chartered as LGBTQ dances. 
Not coincidentally, these dances are thriving amidst a decline of 
attendance of contra in general.


Contra dancing in the Bay Area is thriving in general, though some 
series struggle.  I can think of multiple gents/ladies series that do 
okay, and I know at least one larks/ravens series that is struggling.  I 
don't think it's the determining  factor in success.


Many dances are also taking up safety policies before and after the 
#metoo movement, despite plenty of resistance for years of some people 
insisting that contra is a happy place where there's no harassment.


I am glad to have missed those arguments, but I have missed them. Were 
there really contradance people arguing that it would hurt to have a 
safety policy?  (BACDS had a code of conduct for many years, and then 
went full bore into safety policy, but most of the discussion about that 
was about how to keep track of reports from multiple dance series to 
identify serial harassers without violating privacy, etc - that is, 
logistics.  Honestly don't recall anybody objecting to doing it.)


So yes, you're correct that these discussions have been happening for 
years, true, but they have also been producing tangible change in many 
places.


...


I might also like to disagree with your implication that everyone is 
responsible for "arguing about it". We callers who have swapped terms 
for g*pay, for example, have long since moved on.


Well, you (Ron) may have.  The callers who frequently lead BACDS English 
and Contra dances have been having an email discussion trying to 
standardize on a replacement term, since there is dancer pushback 
against having to deal with multiple terms for the same figure.  
(There's certainly also some dancer pushback against dropping a term 
they know, like, and don't perceive as derogatory, but they're going to 
have to get over it.)  Anyway, we got  about 40 group emails in and are 
stalled on trying to get a term that everybody can support, so right now 
everybody's still using what they individually prefer.  I'm a "right 
shoulder round" person myself, but kinda like "gyre".  I don't think I 
can call this "have long since moved on".


-- Alan
___
List Name:  Callers mailing list
List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/

Re: [Callers] Politically Correct?

[Dorcas Hand via Callers]

Louise has hit the nail on the head: "I’d love everyone to dance for the pure 
joy of it, but the idea that we can get “back” to that place, rather than move 
forward to it, is a myth." Me too (yup), and there is no easy path to get 
there. We must keep talking - just like in the broader world of politics. 
Talking does/can get frustrating and circular, but it also opens minds and 
keeps people thinking about how to be together better.

Meanwhile, together let's forge a path - maybe of many sortof parallel lanes - 
to move forward to dancing in joy.
Dorcas Hand
Houston

-Original Message-
From: Callers  On Behalf Of Louise 
Siddons via Callers
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2018 10:49 AM
To: call...@sharedweight.net
Subject: Re: [Callers] Politically Correct?

I have a friend who danced for the pure joy of it until he got sick of being 
asked why a black man wanted to contra dance. I dance with more, purer joy now 
that fewer men “offer” to split me up from my girlfriend when we join a line 
together.

I’d love everyone to dance for the pure joy of it, but the idea that we can get 
“back” to that place, rather than move forward to it, is a myth. 

Louise.
www.scissortail.org

> On Mar 28, 2018, at 4:43 PM, Jeffrey Spero via Callers 
>  wrote:
> 
> Can we just get back to dancing for the pure joy of it?
> 
___
List Name:  Callers mailing list
List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
___
List Name:  Callers mailing list
List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/

Re: [Callers] Politically Correct?

[Ron Blechner via Callers]

Hi Jeff,

I think your understanding of there being "no to little movement" is
inaccurate.

In New England, New York, Seattle, and the Bay Area, many callers have been
examining terminology and changing. Several dance series have gone
genderfree without being specifically chartered as LGBTQ dances. Not
coincidentally, these dances are thriving amidst a decline of attendance of
contra in general.

Many dances are also taking up safety policies before and after the #metoo
movement, despite plenty of resistance for years of some people insisting
that contra is a happy place where there's no harassment.

So yes, you're correct that these discussions have been happening for
years, true, but they have also been producing tangible change in many
places.

...


I might also like to disagree with your implication that everyone is
responsible for "arguing about it". We callers who have swapped terms for
g*pay, for example, have long since moved on.

In the case of this original post, Rich was asking for practical advice,
and there *was no* argument until a couple choice people started throwing
shade at those of us who think changing the lyrics from "she was a young
thing" to "she was a young girl" is an easy swap that doesn't diminish the
tradition, but also reduces the objectification of women.

In dance,
Ron Blechner


On Wed, Mar 28, 2018, 12:32 PM Jeffrey Spero via Callers <
callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

>
> On Mar 28, 2018, at 8:56 AM, Maia McCormick  wrote:
>
> While Jeffrey makes a compelling point, I want to chime in with another
> thought: *that not having these discussions is just as divisive (if not
> more so) than having them*, just in ways that are harder for some sides
> of the community to see. While people make (very valid) claims that long
> discussions about terminology, altering words to singing squares, etc. are
> alienating some more established members of the community, to *not* have
> these discussions is to alienate many other folks, particularly people our
> dance scene has done less well by in the past -- young people, people of
> color, queer people, trans people... the list goes on.
>
>
> I would never suggest that these discussion not take place.  But at some
> point, the discussion must end with action either being taken - or not.
> This particular discussion has been going on for many years, with very
> little new information, with both sides feeling more polarized, and there
> being no to little movement in the community at large.  We’re beating a
> dead horse.  At what point does this become more divisive than cohesive?
> How is renewing this discussion by rehashing things that have been said
> over and over again on both sides of the issue being helpful more than
> harmful?
>
> Call it a walk around. Call it a gypsy. Call larks/ravens. Call
> gents/ladies.  Call the moves as you see fit. But let’s stop the constant
> arguing about it that has become tiresome and divisive.  Minds really
> aren’t being changed after years of rehashing the same points.
>
> And with that, I will no longer rehash MY point!
> ___
> List Name:  Callers mailing list
> List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
> Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
>
___
List Name:  Callers mailing list
List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/

Re: [Callers] Politically Correct?

[Jeffrey Spero via Callers]

> On Mar 28, 2018, at 8:56 AM, Maia McCormick  wrote:
> 
> While Jeffrey makes a compelling point, I want to chime in with another 
> thought: that not having these discussions is just as divisive (if not more 
> so) than having them, just in ways that are harder for some sides of the 
> community to see. While people make (very valid) claims that long discussions 
> about terminology, altering words to singing squares, etc. are alienating 
> some more established members of the community, to not have these discussions 
> is to alienate many other folks, particularly people our dance scene has done 
> less well by in the past -- young people, people of color, queer people, 
> trans people... the list goes on.

I would never suggest that these discussion not take place.  But at some point, 
the discussion must end with action either being taken - or not.  This 
particular discussion has been going on for many years, with very little new 
information, with both sides feeling more polarized, and there being no to 
little movement in the community at large.  We’re beating a dead horse.  At 
what point does this become more divisive than cohesive?  How is renewing this 
discussion by rehashing things that have been said over and over again on both 
sides of the issue being helpful more than harmful?

Call it a walk around. Call it a gypsy. Call larks/ravens. Call gents/ladies.  
Call the moves as you see fit. But let’s stop the constant arguing about it 
that has become tiresome and divisive.  Minds really aren’t being changed after 
years of rehashing the same points.

And with that, I will no longer rehash MY point!___
List Name:  Callers mailing list
List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/

Re: [Callers] Politically Correct?

[Maia McCormick via Callers]

(Ah, to clarify, by "offered a dance to split them from their partner" I'm
talking about the phenomenon that Louise mentioned, where a queer couple
(or heck, even same-gender friends!) are offered dances by people to slot
them into opposite-gender couples.)

On Wed, Mar 28, 2018 at 11:56 AM, Maia McCormick  wrote:

> While Jeffrey makes a compelling point, I want to chime in with another
> thought: *that not having these discussions is just as divisive (if not
> more so) than having them*, just in ways that are harder for some sides
> of the community to see. While people make (very valid) claims that long
> discussions about terminology, altering words to singing squares, etc. are
> alienating some more established members of the community, to *not* have
> these discussions is to alienate many other folks, particularly people our
> dance scene has done less well by in the past -- young people, people of
> color, queer people, trans people... the list goes on.
>
> And if it doesn't look to you like these people are being alienated, that
> might be because the alienation started so early that they just never came
> back to another contra dance, after they heard the caller using language
> that made them deeply uncomfortable, or were "offered" a dance to split
> them from their partner, or looked out on the crowd and didn't see anyone
> who looked like them.
>
> So yes, having these discussions may make some folks uncomfortable, and I
> want to strive to minimize this discomfort; at the same time, many are made
> deeply uncomfortable by the status quo, often it ways it's hard to see
> (because often the response to this kind of discomfort is to leave the
> community and not come back--so we have a pronounced sample bias). To
> dismiss these conversations because they're divisive or uncomfortable is to
> prioritize the unity and comfort of one group (the established contra
> scene) over another (all those who might have been contradancers, were the
> community more welcoming to them), and that doesn't sit right with me.
>
> Cheers,
> Maia
>
> On Wed, Mar 28, 2018 at 11:43 AM, Jeffrey Spero via Callers <
> callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> He’s right… and she’s right.  How can they both be right?
>>
>> Well… they ARE both right.  There is no clear cut answer on this. People
>> who feel strongly on one side or the other may like to think there is a
>> clear cut answer, but if one thing seems clear to me by the amount of back
>> and forth on this subject it’s that there are differing valid opinions.
>>
>> In the meantime, while we argue endlessly about whether to gypsy,
>> walk-around, face-to-face, vis-a-vis, spiral, gyre, turn by the eyes,
>> whimsy, kipsy, tipsy, shmipsy - or just avoid the move altogether, we lose
>> why many came to contra dancing in the first place.  Contradances were a
>> place where people would come to actually get away from all of the
>> controversies of life. It was a place where people from differing stripes
>> with differing beliefs (OK, maybe I’m being idealistic here - let’s not kid
>> ourselves, it’s mostly liberal whites!) can come together and leave the
>> real world issues behind and just dance and be friendly.  And now? These
>> controversies have made their presence known on the dance floor.  And it’s
>> not just gypsies or no gypsies.  It’s also questions of role identification
>> (men/women, ladies/gents, larks/ravens, jets/rubies) and whether people
>> should boycott dance weekends that gender balance.
>>
>> Please don’t misunderstand me… I have very little fight in this game.
>> I’m moving to the point where I couldn’t care less about what we call moves
>> or people.  I’m just tired of the endless discussions that go nowhere
>> except to continue to divide people and make the dance community cohesive.
>> Maybe I’ve become an old fart who just wishes we could have the dance
>> community we had decades ago that wasn’t so fraught with divisiveness.  Or
>> maybe there’s something to what I have written here.  Maybe the decline in
>> attendance at dances across the country has less to do with terminology -
>> and more to do with people not wanting to be a part of yet another
>> community that is becoming polarized.  Do I have a solution?  Nope.  And
>> neither does anyone else, or else it would have been solved by now.  So
>> maybe we should just cool it for awhile and see if maybe tolerance for
>> personal preferences might help make the community less contentious. Can we
>> just get back to dancing for the pure joy of it?
>>
>> My two cents.
>> ___
>> List Name:  Callers mailing list
>> List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
>> Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
>>
>
>
___
List Name:  Callers mailing list
List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/

Re: [Callers] Politically Correct?

[Maia McCormick via Callers]

While Jeffrey makes a compelling point, I want to chime in with another
thought: *that not having these discussions is just as divisive (if not
more so) than having them*, just in ways that are harder for some sides of
the community to see. While people make (very valid) claims that long
discussions about terminology, altering words to singing squares, etc. are
alienating some more established members of the community, to *not* have
these discussions is to alienate many other folks, particularly people our
dance scene has done less well by in the past -- young people, people of
color, queer people, trans people... the list goes on.

And if it doesn't look to you like these people are being alienated, that
might be because the alienation started so early that they just never came
back to another contra dance, after they heard the caller using language
that made them deeply uncomfortable, or were "offered" a dance to split
them from their partner, or looked out on the crowd and didn't see anyone
who looked like them.

So yes, having these discussions may make some folks uncomfortable, and I
want to strive to minimize this discomfort; at the same time, many are made
deeply uncomfortable by the status quo, often it ways it's hard to see
(because often the response to this kind of discomfort is to leave the
community and not come back--so we have a pronounced sample bias). To
dismiss these conversations because they're divisive or uncomfortable is to
prioritize the unity and comfort of one group (the established contra
scene) over another (all those who might have been contradancers, were the
community more welcoming to them), and that doesn't sit right with me.

Cheers,
Maia

On Wed, Mar 28, 2018 at 11:43 AM, Jeffrey Spero via Callers <
callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

>
> He’s right… and she’s right.  How can they both be right?
>
> Well… they ARE both right.  There is no clear cut answer on this. People
> who feel strongly on one side or the other may like to think there is a
> clear cut answer, but if one thing seems clear to me by the amount of back
> and forth on this subject it’s that there are differing valid opinions.
>
> In the meantime, while we argue endlessly about whether to gypsy,
> walk-around, face-to-face, vis-a-vis, spiral, gyre, turn by the eyes,
> whimsy, kipsy, tipsy, shmipsy - or just avoid the move altogether, we lose
> why many came to contra dancing in the first place.  Contradances were a
> place where people would come to actually get away from all of the
> controversies of life. It was a place where people from differing stripes
> with differing beliefs (OK, maybe I’m being idealistic here - let’s not kid
> ourselves, it’s mostly liberal whites!) can come together and leave the
> real world issues behind and just dance and be friendly.  And now? These
> controversies have made their presence known on the dance floor.  And it’s
> not just gypsies or no gypsies.  It’s also questions of role identification
> (men/women, ladies/gents, larks/ravens, jets/rubies) and whether people
> should boycott dance weekends that gender balance.
>
> Please don’t misunderstand me… I have very little fight in this game.  I’m
> moving to the point where I couldn’t care less about what we call moves or
> people.  I’m just tired of the endless discussions that go nowhere except
> to continue to divide people and make the dance community cohesive.  Maybe
> I’ve become an old fart who just wishes we could have the dance community
> we had decades ago that wasn’t so fraught with divisiveness.  Or maybe
> there’s something to what I have written here.  Maybe the decline in
> attendance at dances across the country has less to do with terminology -
> and more to do with people not wanting to be a part of yet another
> community that is becoming polarized.  Do I have a solution?  Nope.  And
> neither does anyone else, or else it would have been solved by now.  So
> maybe we should just cool it for awhile and see if maybe tolerance for
> personal preferences might help make the community less contentious. Can we
> just get back to dancing for the pure joy of it?
>
> My two cents.
> ___
> List Name:  Callers mailing list
> List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
> Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
>
___
List Name:  Callers mailing list
List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/

Re: [Callers] Politically Correct?

[Louise Siddons via Callers]

I have a friend who danced for the pure joy of it until he got sick of being 
asked why a black man wanted to contra dance. I dance with more, purer joy now 
that fewer men “offer” to split me up from my girlfriend when we join a line 
together.

I’d love everyone to dance for the pure joy of it, but the idea that we can get 
“back” to that place, rather than move forward to it, is a myth. 

Louise.
www.scissortail.org

> On Mar 28, 2018, at 4:43 PM, Jeffrey Spero via Callers 
>  wrote:
> 
> Can we just get back to dancing for the pure joy of it?
> 
___
List Name:  Callers mailing list
List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/

Re: [Callers] Politically Correct?

[Jeffrey Spero via Callers]

He’s right… and she’s right.  How can they both be right?

Well… they ARE both right.  There is no clear cut answer on this. People who 
feel strongly on one side or the other may like to think there is a clear cut 
answer, but if one thing seems clear to me by the amount of back and forth on 
this subject it’s that there are differing valid opinions.

In the meantime, while we argue endlessly about whether to gypsy, walk-around, 
face-to-face, vis-a-vis, spiral, gyre, turn by the eyes, whimsy, kipsy, tipsy, 
shmipsy - or just avoid the move altogether, we lose why many came to contra 
dancing in the first place.  Contradances were a place where people would come 
to actually get away from all of the controversies of life. It was a place 
where people from differing stripes with differing beliefs (OK, maybe I’m being 
idealistic here - let’s not kid ourselves, it’s mostly liberal whites!) can 
come together and leave the real world issues behind and just dance and be 
friendly.  And now? These controversies have made their presence known on the 
dance floor.  And it’s not just gypsies or no gypsies.  It’s also questions of 
role identification (men/women, ladies/gents, larks/ravens, jets/rubies) and 
whether people should boycott dance weekends that gender balance.  

Please don’t misunderstand me… I have very little fight in this game.  I’m 
moving to the point where I couldn’t care less about what we call moves or 
people.  I’m just tired of the endless discussions that go nowhere except to 
continue to divide people and make the dance community cohesive.  Maybe I’ve 
become an old fart who just wishes we could have the dance community we had 
decades ago that wasn’t so fraught with divisiveness.  Or maybe there’s 
something to what I have written here.  Maybe the decline in attendance at 
dances across the country has less to do with terminology - and more to do with 
people not wanting to be a part of yet another community that is becoming 
polarized.  Do I have a solution?  Nope.  And neither does anyone else, or else 
it would have been solved by now.  So maybe we should just cool it for awhile 
and see if maybe tolerance for personal preferences might help make the 
community less contentious. Can we just get back to dancing for the pure joy of 
it?

My two cents.
___
List Name:  Callers mailing list
List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/

Re: [Callers] Politically Correct?

[Louise Siddons via Callers]

I agree wholeheartedly with Jen, and appreciate her thoughtful response.

Donald makes the excellent point that history is the source of an ongoing 
challenge (it’s not the present, and the values of any one historical moment 
are not the same as those of another) for which language usefully offers a 
dynamic solution. I enjoy thinking about this aspect of dance history, and I 
enjoy sharing it with dancers (at appropriate times and in the appropriate 
quantity, of course). I see no reason not to enjoy this aspect of what we do 
just as much as we enjoy the vagaries of Sharp vs. Shaw siding, or wagon-wheel 
versus hands-across stars (which I assume we do, since I can initiate a lengthy 
conversation about these and other things with very little effort, among most 
dancers and callers I know!).

Louise.
www.scissortail.org

> On Mar 28, 2018, at 3:58 PM, Donald Perley via Callers 
>  wrote:
> 
> When history shows a number of new terms introduced over the years,
> and each, after a while, picks up the taint of being derogatory, you
> eventually figure out that
> the word itself isn't the real problem.
> 
> 

> On Wed, Mar 28, 2018 at 10:16 AM, Jen Morgan via Callers
>  wrote:
>> Hello folks
>> 
>> I'd just like to second what Ron said.  We keep hearing about how organisers
>> would like to "get Young People in", but then express disdain for the things
>> we care about, such as avoiding offensive language.
> ___
> List Name:  Callers mailing list
> List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
> Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
___
List Name:  Callers mailing list
List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/

Re: [Callers] Politically Correct?

[Ryan Smith via Callers]

While it's true that language is often not the problem, it's less relevant
to the discussion of what words to use as a caller than you might think.

Scenario A:
If we have to keep finding new ways to describe square dancing because it's
viewed as an activity only danced by weird old white people, then square
dancing is the problem and changing the name isn't going to help.

Scenario B:
If the problem is that an activity like square dancing has borrowed
terminology that has become dated over time, then it can avoid becoming
scenario A by updating its terminology to match the moving target of
society or in some cases it can discard that terminology in favor of
something that is less likely to attract baggage.

As regards the original question for this post, how we refer to people is
going to be a moving target.  If you want to avoid offending people, you
should probably find a term that is considered respectful in the current
era in which you are living.  If you don't care about offending people,
then the question is moot.

As regards other terminology concerns, if you find that you have a dance
term that refers to specific people or groups (gypsies, contras, etc.)  you
can, in fact, avoid the problem (possibly forever) by moving the term to
something less likely to get wrapped up in the identities of groups or
cultures.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-35349619

On Wed, Mar 28, 2018 at 10:58 AM, Donald Perley via Callers <
callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> When history shows a number of new terms introduced over the years,
> and each, after a while, picks up the taint of being derogatory, you
> eventually figure out that
> the word itself isn't the real problem.
>
> Using the tainted water analogy, if the person serving your water has
> typhoid, asking for a new glass from the same waiter won't help much.
>
>
___
List Name:  Callers mailing list
List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/

Re: [Callers] Politically Correct?

[Donald Perley via Callers]

When history shows a number of new terms introduced over the years,
and each, after a while, picks up the taint of being derogatory, you
eventually figure out that
the word itself isn't the real problem.

Using the tainted water analogy, if the person serving your water has
typhoid, asking for a new glass from the same waiter won't help much.

On Wed, Mar 28, 2018 at 10:16 AM, Jen Morgan via Callers
 wrote:
> Hello folks
>
> I'd just like to second what Ron said.  We keep hearing about how organisers
> would like to "get Young People in", but then express disdain for the things
> we care about, such as avoiding offensive language.
___
List Name:  Callers mailing list
List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/

Re: [Callers] Politically Correct?

[Jen Morgan via Callers]

Hello folks

I'd just like to second what Ron said.  We keep hearing about how
organisers would like to "get Young People in", but then express disdain
for the things we care about, such as avoiding offensive language.

The idea that we should be allowed to say whatever we want when calling as
long as we don't intend any disrespect seems naive at best.  For example, I
might want to say something like "This is so f---ing cool!" when I'm
calling, and intend no disrespect by it.  But I still wouldn't say it,
because some people *would* feel disrespected by my using that language
over the microphone, even if that's not my intention, and I care about
them.  To say that only your intentions matter is to say that you either
don't recognise, or don't care, that other people may have different
feelings about certain words or turns of phrase than you do.  And some
words have a history which cannot be ignored and remains relevant no matter
what your intentions.  (unless you are Humpty-Dumpty)

"Political correctness" is what people call it when they have to treat
others with respect, and they don't want to.  A good trick is to go through
and mentally replace the words "political correctness" with "treating
people with respect".  It helps make it clear what people are really
saying.

I would second Ron's comments about the use of the n-word on this thread.
It's just a word that should never be used by white people, at all, ever,
no matter what the context.  Here's a quick explanation of why
.
(https://www.vox.com/identities/2017/11/9/16627900/ta-nehisi-coates-n-word
)

And as to your actual point Colin, I disagree.  Our inner thoughts and
feelings towards groups of people matter, like you say.  Our outward
behaviour matters.  And our choice of language matters.  Words absolutely
can cause significant pain.  And the fact is that just because a word may
not start off poisoned by racism (or some other form of contempt) doesn't
mean that it can ever become unpoisoned again.  Say a glass of water is
fine to start with and then someone defecates in it.  You can't just scoop
the turd out and call the water clean again.  Sure, changing our choice of
words is treating the symptom not the cause.  But if I was suffering from a
painful illness where the cause couldn't be dealt with straightaway, I
would definitely want the symptoms to be treated in the meantime!

I notice that a lot of people express resentment about being asked to
change their choice of words for others.  If those people find out that
they can get away without making a change, they are positively gleeful, as
though they have won a victory.  Expressing resentment at being asked to
change your choice of words, glee when you can get away without doing so --
there is no surer way to express your contempt for the feelings and
opinions of others.  When you are in the position of being an old white
male, with good standing in the community -- and in this community some
callers are positively revered to the point where many act as though they
can do no wrong -- it must be easy to believe that no one but yourself
matters.  Consider, though, whether this attitude is really good for a
community long term.

Jen


On 28 March 2018 at 07:45, Ron Blechner via Callers <
callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> "Living Tradition"
>
> Preserving tradition and being appropriate to our day and age are not
> mutually exclusive.
>
> I actually love rich traditions that we keep alive. We talk about "living"
> traditions, so what do we mean by this phrase?
>
> For something to be alive, it changes. It adapts. What it doesn't do is
> stay stagnant and unchanging. The whole reason contra dancing is still
> alive today is because it's alive and changing.
>
> By insisting on holding onto traditions verbatim, we are actually doing
> more to kill them than save them. Sure, we'll preserve them this way - as
> one does a taxidermied animal: perfectly preserved, sitting on a shelf,
> dead.
>
> I'd prefer my traditions alive. I'd like to keep sharing them with younger
> generations. That means that people like Rich are asking the right
> questions. That means we need to consider that language changes and that we
> need to speak in a language that reaches an audience not merely just our
> own.
>
> Hey, isn't that the whole point of being a dance caller? Being heard by
> your audience?
>
> In dance, again,
> Ron Blechner
>
> On Wed, Mar 28, 2018, 1:33 AM Ron Blechner  wrote:
>
>> I want to echo the words of Alex D-L and Dave Casserly.
>>
>> I'm also appalled at the casual use of the n-word on this thread without
>> anyone whatsoever calling it out. This is really giving me pause. :(
>>
>> Contra's attendance is dwindling - I hear it from every organizer I talk
>> to, with a couple exceptions. I also hear about the desire to "get the
>> young people to dance". Hmmm.
>>
>> Ron Blechner
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 27, 2018, 11:39 AM

Re: [Callers] Politically Correct?

[Ron Blechner via Callers]

"Living Tradition"

Preserving tradition and being appropriate to our day and age are not
mutually exclusive.

I actually love rich traditions that we keep alive. We talk about "living"
traditions, so what do we mean by this phrase?

For something to be alive, it changes. It adapts. What it doesn't do is
stay stagnant and unchanging. The whole reason contra dancing is still
alive today is because it's alive and changing.

By insisting on holding onto traditions verbatim, we are actually doing
more to kill them than save them. Sure, we'll preserve them this way - as
one does a taxidermied animal: perfectly preserved, sitting on a shelf,
dead.

I'd prefer my traditions alive. I'd like to keep sharing them with younger
generations. That means that people like Rich are asking the right
questions. That means we need to consider that language changes and that we
need to speak in a language that reaches an audience not merely just our
own.

Hey, isn't that the whole point of being a dance caller? Being heard by
your audience?

In dance, again,
Ron Blechner

On Wed, Mar 28, 2018, 1:33 AM Ron Blechner  wrote:

> I want to echo the words of Alex D-L and Dave Casserly.
>
> I'm also appalled at the casual use of the n-word on this thread without
> anyone whatsoever calling it out. This is really giving me pause. :(
>
> Contra's attendance is dwindling - I hear it from every organizer I talk
> to, with a couple exceptions. I also hear about the desire to "get the
> young people to dance". Hmmm.
>
> Ron Blechner
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 27, 2018, 11:39 AM Dave Casserly via Callers <
> callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
>> Rich,
>>
>> I don't think your situation here is exactly what Colin describes--
>> you're not worried about any of the particular words, as many of us are
>> regarding the word "gypsy," for instance.  The question here is whether the
>> phrase has an offensive *meaning* of "women are things," and if so, is
>> that a good reason not to use it.  Personally, I'd probably alter it or do
>> a different singing square.  I don't subscribe to the extreme position that
>> you should never sing lyrics to a folk song unless you agree with those
>> lyrics; that would make singing folk songs very difficult to do at all.
>> That said, there are some times where the meanings of lyrics are offensive
>> enough, without any redeeming qualities, that I leave a verse out or alter
>> a few words in the singing sessions that I lead.  There is nothing
>> sacrosanct about a particular set of lyrics to a folk song; people have
>> been changing them for whatever reason for generations, and will continue
>> to do so.  If future singers don't like my revisions, they can sing a
>> different version, just like I sometimes prefer to ignore Victorian-era
>> revisions to bawdier songs.
>>
>> Here, I'd lean toward not using the lyrics for three reasons: 1) they
>> imply that women are objects; 2) there's nothing redeeming or valuable
>> about them, as they're the only things sung, with no context; and 3)
>> similarly, they don't represent the meaning of the song, and when repeated
>> on their own, sort of pervert that meaning (at least going by the lyrics
>> Yoyo posted).
>>
>> I also think there are good reasons to err on the side of inclusive
>> language, particularly in our community.  Contra dancing is overwhelmingly
>> white, and for a long time, contra dance calling was dominated by men.  The
>> loudest voices on this forum are those of older white men.  Contra dancers
>> and particularly organizers are disproportionately white baby boomers.
>> We're seeing the effects of that now; dance attendance has been dwindling
>> as older dancers stop attending and aren't replaced by younger dancers.  If
>> we want our dance form to continue to thrive, when there's a question on
>> which there's a generational divide (as you, in my view correctly, note
>> here), I would err toward using the language less likely to turn off our
>> younger generations, which are also our most diverse generations.  This
>> isn't an issue where changing the lyrics is going to bother people-- very
>> few would know the original lyrics well enough to notice-- and certainly
>> nobody would know if you selected a different singing square instead.
>>
>> -Dave
>>
>> --
>> David Casserly
>> (cell) 781 258-2761
>> ___
>> List Name:  Callers mailing list
>> List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
>> Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
>>
>
___
List Name:  Callers mailing list
List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/

Re: [Callers] Politically Correct?

[Ron Blechner via Callers]

I want to echo the words of Alex D-L and Dave Casserly.

I'm also appalled at the casual use of the n-word on this thread without
anyone whatsoever calling it out. This is really giving me pause. :(

Contra's attendance is dwindling - I hear it from every organizer I talk
to, with a couple exceptions. I also hear about the desire to "get the
young people to dance". Hmmm.

Ron Blechner


On Tue, Mar 27, 2018, 11:39 AM Dave Casserly via Callers <
callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> Rich,
>
> I don't think your situation here is exactly what Colin describes-- you're
> not worried about any of the particular words, as many of us are regarding
> the word "gypsy," for instance.  The question here is whether the phrase
> has an offensive *meaning* of "women are things," and if so, is that a
> good reason not to use it.  Personally, I'd probably alter it or do a
> different singing square.  I don't subscribe to the extreme position that
> you should never sing lyrics to a folk song unless you agree with those
> lyrics; that would make singing folk songs very difficult to do at all.
> That said, there are some times where the meanings of lyrics are offensive
> enough, without any redeeming qualities, that I leave a verse out or alter
> a few words in the singing sessions that I lead.  There is nothing
> sacrosanct about a particular set of lyrics to a folk song; people have
> been changing them for whatever reason for generations, and will continue
> to do so.  If future singers don't like my revisions, they can sing a
> different version, just like I sometimes prefer to ignore Victorian-era
> revisions to bawdier songs.
>
> Here, I'd lean toward not using the lyrics for three reasons: 1) they
> imply that women are objects; 2) there's nothing redeeming or valuable
> about them, as they're the only things sung, with no context; and 3)
> similarly, they don't represent the meaning of the song, and when repeated
> on their own, sort of pervert that meaning (at least going by the lyrics
> Yoyo posted).
>
> I also think there are good reasons to err on the side of inclusive
> language, particularly in our community.  Contra dancing is overwhelmingly
> white, and for a long time, contra dance calling was dominated by men.  The
> loudest voices on this forum are those of older white men.  Contra dancers
> and particularly organizers are disproportionately white baby boomers.
> We're seeing the effects of that now; dance attendance has been dwindling
> as older dancers stop attending and aren't replaced by younger dancers.  If
> we want our dance form to continue to thrive, when there's a question on
> which there's a generational divide (as you, in my view correctly, note
> here), I would err toward using the language less likely to turn off our
> younger generations, which are also our most diverse generations.  This
> isn't an issue where changing the lyrics is going to bother people-- very
> few would know the original lyrics well enough to notice-- and certainly
> nobody would know if you selected a different singing square instead.
>
> -Dave
>
> --
> David Casserly
> (cell) 781 258-2761
> ___
> List Name:  Callers mailing list
> List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
> Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
>
___
List Name:  Callers mailing list
List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/

Re: [Callers] Politically Correct?

[jim saxe via Callers]

An important thing to remember is that sometimes *you just can't
please everyone* no matter what you do.  That applies not only
to issues that some would characterize as being about "political
correctness" (singing call lyrics; the "g-word"; gendered vs.
gender-free names for dance roles), but to many, many other
decisions about dance calling, dance organization, and life in
general.  

Some of our recent discussion have made me recall an old fable of
which I offer here one version (from the March 29, 1753, number
of the British weekly, _The World_, as quoted at

 https://books.google.com/books?id=L3YPQAAJ&pg=PA78

):

 An old man and a little boy were driving an ass to the next
 market to sell.  What a fool is this fellow (says a man upon
 the road) to be trudging it on foot with his son, that his
 ass may go light!  The old man, hearing this, sat his boy
 upon the ass, and went whistling by the side of him.  Why,
 sirrah! (cries a second man to the boy) is it fit for you to
 be riding, while your poor old father is walking on foot?
 The father, upon this rebuke, took down his boy from the ass,
 and mounted himself.  Do you see (says a third) how the lazy
 old knave rides along, upon his beast, while his poor little
 boy is almost crippled with walking?  The old man no sooner
 heard this, than he took up his son behind him.  Pray, honest
 friend (says a fourth) is that ass your own?  Yes, says the
 old man.  One would not have thought so, replied the other,
 by your loading him so unmercifully.  You and your son are
 better able to carry the poor beast than he you.  Any thing
 to please, says the owner; and alighting with his son, they
 tied the legs of the ass together, and by the help of a pole
 endeavoured to carry him upon their shoulders over the bridge
 that led to the town.  This was so entertaining a sight that
 the people ran in crowds to laugh at it; till the ass,
 conceiving a dislike to the over-complaisance of his master,
 burst asunder the cords that tied him, slipt from the pole,
 and tumbled into the river.  The poor old man made the best
 of his way home, ashamed and vexed that, by endeavouring to
 please everybody, he had pleased nobody, and lost his ass
 into the bargain.

Regarding Rich's question about "Billy Boy", Frannie wrote:

> I learned it as a child as "She's a young girl."  That would at least get rid 
> of the people are things issue.

I might go further and change tag line to something like

She is young and she cannot leave her mother

lest someone object to the word "girl."  Drawing an analogy to
the fable above, I think this sort of change is in the realm
of deciding who should walk and who, if anyone, should ride. 
Your own modern sensibilities may suggest a departure from past
practice.  Or if you think there's more than one reasonable
course of action (though perhaps no perfect one), then you might
feel little inconvenience in acceding to the most common (or the
most loudly asserted) preference of others, even it's not your
own first choice.

But now what if somebody objects to the word "young" because
it implies the protagonist in the song is courting an underage
child?  Or what if someone knows the ending of the original
song (where the woman sung of turns out to be far from young)
and complains that it is ageist?  Or what if someone finds the
gendered pronouns "she" and "her" to be unacceptable in any
context?  There comes a point--and obviously not everyone will
agree where that point is--when either you can go looking for
a length of cord and a pole or you can decide that it's time
to say No.

--Jim

___
List Name:  Callers mailing list
List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/

Re: [Callers] Politically Correct

[Richard Hopkins via Callers]

 I am an example of someone who gradually left a dance community partly because 
of what I saw as offensive lyrics in singing calls….. When my wife and I were 
dancing modern western squares in the late 1980s, in Ohio, many callers were 
using contemporary pop and country songs for their singing calls.  Maybe they 
still do.  One of the reasons we left MWSD after a few years was their choice 
of country songs for their singing calls (which were about half the dances 
called in a typical evening).  I particularly remember cringing at use of Hank 
Williams Junior’s song “If the South Woulda Won the War”, which argues that if 
that had happened we wouldn’t have the social problems we have now (or had in 
the late ‘80s).Not to belittle the concerns that others have brought up, 
but there are (or were) a lot more offensive songs available — at least 
offensive to me — than have been mentioned here.  And I am at least half a 
southerner myself…. 

I'd make my Supreme Court down in Texas,
And we wouldn't have no killers gettin'off free.
If they were proven guilty, then they would swing quickly,
Instead of writin' books and smilin' on T.V.
We'd all learn Cajun cookin in Louisiana,
And I'd put that capitol back in Alabama.
We'd put Florida on the right track 'cause, we'd take Miami back,
And throw all them pushers in the slammer.

Read more: Hank Williams Jr. - If The South Woulda Won Lyrics | MetroLyrics 

 

Richard Hopkins

``

Richard Hopkins

850-544-7614
hopkin...@comcast.net


___
List Name:  Callers mailing list
List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/

Re: [Callers] Politically Correct?

[frannie via Callers]

I learned it as a child as "She's a young girl."  That would at least get
rid of the people are things issue.

On Sat, Mar 24, 2018, 10:12 PM Rich Sbardella via Callers <
callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> Hello folks,
>
> I have been calling singing squares for years, and there is one I love by
> Dick Leger titled Billy Boy.  The tag line that is sung during the
> Promenade is "She's a young thing, that cannot leave her mother."
>
> Here is a link to a version of the full song, not within a square.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKRJuLHU3Qo
>
> My question is, is this song appropriate for the contra dance crowd with
> the tag line above?  (The tag line is the only line that is sung.)
>
> Any Thoughts?
>
> Rich
> Stafford, CT
> ___
> List Name:  Callers mailing list
> List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
> Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
>
___
List Name:  Callers mailing list
List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/

Re: [Callers] Politically Correct?

[Dave Casserly via Callers]

Rich,

I don't think your situation here is exactly what Colin describes-- you're
not worried about any of the particular words, as many of us are regarding
the word "gypsy," for instance.  The question here is whether the phrase
has an offensive *meaning* of "women are things," and if so, is that a good
reason not to use it.  Personally, I'd probably alter it or do a different
singing square.  I don't subscribe to the extreme position that you should
never sing lyrics to a folk song unless you agree with those lyrics; that
would make singing folk songs very difficult to do at all.  That said,
there are some times where the meanings of lyrics are offensive enough,
without any redeeming qualities, that I leave a verse out or alter a few
words in the singing sessions that I lead.  There is nothing sacrosanct
about a particular set of lyrics to a folk song; people have been changing
them for whatever reason for generations, and will continue to do so.  If
future singers don't like my revisions, they can sing a different version,
just like I sometimes prefer to ignore Victorian-era revisions to bawdier
songs.

Here, I'd lean toward not using the lyrics for three reasons: 1) they imply
that women are objects; 2) there's nothing redeeming or valuable about
them, as they're the only things sung, with no context; and 3) similarly,
they don't represent the meaning of the song, and when repeated on their
own, sort of pervert that meaning (at least going by the lyrics Yoyo
posted).

I also think there are good reasons to err on the side of inclusive
language, particularly in our community.  Contra dancing is overwhelmingly
white, and for a long time, contra dance calling was dominated by men.  The
loudest voices on this forum are those of older white men.  Contra dancers
and particularly organizers are disproportionately white baby boomers.
We're seeing the effects of that now; dance attendance has been dwindling
as older dancers stop attending and aren't replaced by younger dancers.  If
we want our dance form to continue to thrive, when there's a question on
which there's a generational divide (as you, in my view correctly, note
here), I would err toward using the language less likely to turn off our
younger generations, which are also our most diverse generations.  This
isn't an issue where changing the lyrics is going to bother people-- very
few would know the original lyrics well enough to notice-- and certainly
nobody would know if you selected a different singing square instead.

-Dave

-- 
David Casserly
(cell) 781 258-2761
___
List Name:  Callers mailing list
List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/

Re: [Callers] Politically Correct?

[K Panton via Callers]

Hey Rich:

Several replies are of the "it's OK in context" or "that's how things were
back then" variety.

Perhaps.

To use that as the sole argument, however, leads me to a cute little rhyme
my friends and I would sing out when we were about 5 years old and playing
in the yard out on the west coast. It began, "Eenie, meenie, minie, moe..."

I hope no one would suggest that the rhyme in question is fine in this day,
"if only it is put in context."

Granted, your example is a little tamer (in my eyes, but others may find it
equally offensive to the rhyme mentioned; I don't know).

Maybe there are other arguments for retaining the original that stand up
better to true scrutiny. It would be a shame to retain, in common usage
(thereby prolonging the insult), cultural relics that would be unacceptable
in civilized society today.

It would also be a shame to lose past cultural joys.

What about those pop songs that get altered to remove a "derogatory term
for a homosexual"  here (Dire Straits) or a "medication usually prescribed
by a physician" there (Meatloaf)?

Where does one draw the line?

Adapt to current mores or die, Relic!

Good luck with that, Rich!

:)

Ken Panton

ps. We have just recently had pass in parliament a change to our national
anthem, to make it gender-neutral,  from "in all our sons command" to "in
all of us command". Wasn't THAT a challenge!

Then some smart guy pointed out:

"FYI: The original lyric to the 1908 version of “O Canada” was “Thou dost
in us command.” Was changed to “All Thy Sons” in 1914. So for you
traditionalists, Robert Stanley Weir’s original lyric was, in fact,
gender-neutral."
___
List Name:  Callers mailing list
List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/

Re: [Callers] Politically Correct?

[Bill Olson via Callers]

OK, I have to chime in here. I'm definitely on the side of "honoring tradition" 
(within reason), because if we don't, all of traditional music and dance starts 
to become this homogeneous blob... The tradition is much richer than that! It's 
not just traditional singing square dance calls, but (maybe even more) applies 
to traditional songs as well and I'm going to give some license to the term 
"traditional" here!)..


At Maine Fiddle Camp there is singing going on pretty much ALL the time. 
Singing around the camp fire at night is a tradition which has been going on 
for as long as Camp has been in existence. Songs from many traditions, always 
unaccompanied, and always in multi-part harmony. It's a beautiful thing to be a 
part of. Last year (or was it the year before) someone started the song "Old 
Molasses Rum", composed by the late Tom Rowe (a dear departed friend) who was 
the bass player (and bass voice) in Schooner Fare. The words to the whole song 
are attached as a PDF file because that's the only way I have them. The 
"problem" is with third and fourth words believe it or not.. When this song was 
started at the campfire, a young woman was SO upset at the term "African man" 
that we had to stop the song and go on to something else. This caused a LOT of 
stress and I think it colored the campfire sings for the rest of the week at 
Camp. The young woman's take on this all was that only a person of African 
descent had the right to sing a song with those words in it.. I personally 
disagree. Read the lyrics and decide for yourself. We did have a "discussion" 
about this later but I don't think there was any *clear* outcome.


I'll digress here a little into the realm of pop music. There are a million 
examples here, but just take the Beach Boys "California Girls".. whew.. Nothing 
blatant there but these days some would be offended JUST by the fact that women 
were being called "girls", when you actually listen to the lyrics I'm sure many 
would have lots of issues.. .. BUT the Beach Boys pretty much revolutionized 
the use of harmony in pop or maybe all music at that time and while you could 
argue that people had problems with the lyrics at that time and didn't say 
anything, still the songs hit the top of the charts and the harmonies were 
chillingly wonderful.. So what do we do here? Abandon singing or even listening 
to all old music and,, then what? Lately there is an effort on certain fronts 
to "change history" but I don't want to do it with traditional music and dance. 
The richness of the tradition is what makes it so powerful. I often call a 300 
year old contra dance and tell the dancers we've been doing this continually 
for OVER 300 years and that they are part of a continuing tradition the likes 
of which are rarely found on this continent (and I recognize native American 
traditions as an exception to what I am saying!!)


I agree with Tom and some of the others.. "Yes always be respectful, not 
intentionally disrespectful."


nuf said  - bill

________
From: Callers  on behalf of Donna Hunt 
via Callers 
Sent: Monday, March 26, 2018 2:06 PM
To: richsbarde...@gmail.com
Cc: call...@sharedweight.net
Subject: Re: [Callers] Politically Correct?

And here lies the minefield, a caller is never sure who in the audience will 
object, or what they will object to.  And organizers rarely give a clear 
indication of what their vision is...so the callers take the heat.

As callers we're d@mned if we do and d@mned if we don't
Call a square (or other dance formation) or don't
say gypsy or don't
say men, women, he or she...  or don't

Social media is a very powerful tool and can be used for good and evil 
depending on which side you are on.  It can be used to impact elections of 
major countries and impact our views of contra dancing terms.

When I started dancing in the 80's it was the height of the Nicaraguan war and 
the Contras were the right wing rebels (supported and funded by the USA) 
fighting against the left wing socialist government.
When I told people I contra danced I often got unusual looks and had to explain 
what it was.  I wonder if there had been FB at the time would there have been a 
movement to change the name?

The pendulum sways...
In the 80's when I started dancing, Contra dancers used to Norwegian polka to 
the sound check, then dance DI contras, squares (2), circle mixers, , 
hambo/schottische, waltz and occasionally DI proper/triplet/triple minor 
dances, and a few callers were starting to use "Men and Women" rather than 
"Gents and Ladies" reflective of the feminist movement.  (And yes, I personally 
enjoyed the DI contras the best)

Fast forward to 2018 and most callers are using "Gents and Ladies" again (many 
da

Re: [Callers] Politically Correct?

[Darwin Gregory via Callers]

Very well put Ms. Hunt.

 If i may summarize what I understand from your message.

A broader view of tolerance may be the answer.  A tolerance of all people,
cultures and lifestyles, along with tolerances for both change and
tradition.

I don't change roles often,  but I do on occasion.  I have danced with many
that do,  and I have danced with some that change roles with their partner
in between progressions... The midstream progressions, along with other
variety is part of what adds fun to contra dancing.

On Mar 26, 2018 10:06 AM, "Donna Hunt via Callers" <
callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

And here lies the minefield, a caller is never sure who in the audience
will object, or what they will object to.  And organizers rarely give a
clear indication of what their vision is...so the callers take the heat.

As callers we're d@mned if we do and d@mned if we don't
Call a square (or other dance formation) or don't
say gypsy or don't
say men, women, he or she...  or don't

Social media is a very powerful tool and can be used for good and evil
depending on which side you are on.  It can be used to impact elections of
major countries and impact our views of contra dancing terms.

When I started dancing in the 80's it was the height of the Nicaraguan war
and the Contras were the right wing rebels (supported and funded by the
USA) fighting against the left wing socialist government.
When I told people I contra danced I often got unusual looks and had to
explain what it was.  I wonder if there had been FB at the time would there
have been a movement to change the name?

The pendulum sways...
In the 80's when I started dancing, Contra dancers used to Norwegian polka
to the sound check, then dance DI contras, squares (2), circle mixers, ,
hambo/schottische, waltz and occasionally DI proper/triplet/triple minor
dances, and a few callers were starting to use "Men and Women" rather than
"Gents and Ladies" reflective of the feminist movement.  (And yes, I
personally enjoyed the DI contras the best)

Fast forward to 2018 and most callers are using "Gents and Ladies" again
(many dancers cringe at "Men and Women" and some are advocating for
gender-free terms), most dance communities stopped doing a circle mixer and
many stopped doing squares.  AND most dancers can't dance a hambo or
schottische and have no idea what a triplet or triple minor dance is unless
they go to NEFFA or other large inclusive festival or dance ECD.

Singing and patter squares are caught in this as the lyrics/patter are
reflective of the words/lyrics used in the 40's, 50's (and sometimes you
just use a word that rhymes).  As Rich found out the 70-80 year olds love
the lyrics (from their youth) and the millennials do not.

I find that folks these days are very intolerant if things don't go their
way...whichever way that is.  And our dance traditions (and callers) are
caught in the middle.

BTW:  I MWS in an LGBTQ group and we use "boys and girls" and no one cares
and almost everyone switches...such a delight!

Donna Hunt




-Original Message-----
From: Rich Sbardella via Callers 
To: Bob Hofkin 
Cc: Caller's discussion list 
Sent: Sun, Mar 25, 2018 11:15 am
Subject: Re: [Callers] Politically Correct?

Yes Bob,

You are correct, but the tag line for each verse remains the same.  I would
have to find a word to replace  -young "thing".

I think perhaps it is a generational thing.  I have been calling this song
to my seniors who are about 75% women in their 70's and 80s and they sing
along.  No objections.  In fact many remember it as a child.  There are
certainly some contra venues where I would expect a similar response, but
others that would cringe.

"Such a sweet young thing" used to be a term of endearment for Ladies and
Gents, but times change.

In MWSD, boys and girls are the default role terms, and I called MWSD for
25 years.  However, I remember accidentally using the term girls in a
square for a contra community a few years back, and immediately after the
square, I had a dancer approach me and voice her concerns.

This is one of the reasons I posed the original question.

Peace,
Rich



___
List Name:  Callers mailing list
List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
___
List Name:  Callers mailing list
List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/

Re: [Callers] Politically Correct?

[Donna Hunt via Callers]

And here lies the minefield, a caller is never sure who in the audience will 
object, or what they will object to.  And organizers rarely give a clear 
indication of what their vision is...so the callers take the heat.

As callers we're d@mned if we do and d@mned if we don't  
Call a square (or other dance formation) or don't
say gypsy or don't
say men, women, he or she...  or don't

Social media is a very powerful tool and can be used for good and evil 
depending on which side you are on.  It can be used to impact elections of 
major countries and impact our views of contra dancing terms.

When I started dancing in the 80's it was the height of the Nicaraguan war and 
the Contras were the right wing rebels (supported and funded by the USA) 
fighting against the left wing socialist government.  
When I told people I contra danced I often got unusual looks and had to explain 
what it was.  I wonder if there had been FB at the time would there have been a 
movement to change the name?

The pendulum sways...
In the 80's when I started dancing, Contra dancers used to Norwegian polka to 
the sound check, then dance DI contras, squares (2), circle mixers, , 
hambo/schottische,  waltz and occasionally DI proper/triplet/triple minor 
dances, and a few callers were starting to use "Men and Women" rather than 
"Gents and Ladies" reflective of the feminist movement.  (And yes, I personally 
enjoyed the DI contras the best) 

Fast forward to 2018 and most callers are using "Gents and Ladies" again (many 
dancers cringe at "Men and Women" and some are advocating for gender-free 
terms), most dance communities stopped doing a circle mixer and many stopped 
doing squares.  AND most dancers can't dance a hambo or schottische and have no 
idea what a triplet or triple minor dance is unless they go to NEFFA or other 
large inclusive festival or dance ECD.  

Singing and patter squares are caught in this as the lyrics/patter are 
reflective of the words/lyrics used in the 40's, 50's (and sometimes you just 
use a word that rhymes).  As Rich found out the 70-80 year olds love the lyrics 
(from their youth) and the millennials do not.  

 

 I find that folks these days are very intolerant if things don't go their 
way...whichever way that is.  And our dance traditions (and callers) are caught 
in the middle.  

BTW:  I MWS in an LGBTQ group and we use "boys and girls" and no one cares and 
almost everyone switches...such a delight! 

Donna Hunt



 

 

-Original Message-
From: Rich Sbardella via Callers 
To: Bob Hofkin 
Cc: Caller's discussion list 
Sent: Sun, Mar 25, 2018 11:15 am
Subject: Re: [Callers] Politically Correct?



Yes Bob, 


You are correct, but the tag line for each verse remains the same.  I would 
have to find a word to replace  -young "thing".


I think perhaps it is a generational thing.  I have been calling this song to 
my seniors who are about 75% women in their 70's and 80s and they sing along.  
No objections.  In fact many remember it as a child.  There are certainly some 
contra venues where I would expect a similar response, but others that would 
cringe.



"Such a sweet young thing" used to be a term of endearment for Ladies and 
Gents, but times change.


In MWSD, boys and girls are the default role terms, and I called MWSD for 25 
years.  However, I remember accidentally using the term girls in a square for a 
contra community a few years back, and immediately after the square, I had a 
dancer approach me and voice her concerns.


This is one of the reasons I posed the original question.


Peace,
Rich








___
List Name:  Callers mailing list
List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/

Re: [Callers] Politically Correct?

[Mary Collins via Callers]

Well said Colin.

On Mon, Mar 26, 2018, 6:20 AM Colin Hume via Callers <
callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> I'm going to be controversial, so please think hard about what I'm saying
> - and why you're reacting to it the way you
> are - before replying.
>
> I think "Political correctness" is mainly an American problem, though it
> seems to be spreading to England too.
>
> The word "nigger" was not originally a pejorative term, just a description
> - it's the Latin word for "black" with the
> "g" doubled. Since then it has become "black", "negro", "coloured", "of
> colour" and "African-American" (not much use in
> England, that last one), and possibly others that I don't know about.  But
> this "political correctness" is treating the
> symptom, not the disease.
>
> If we look down on black people, or women, or homosexuals, or gypsies, or
> people with mental or physical disabilities,
> then any word we choose to label them with eventually comes to mean "those
> people we look down on", and has to be
> replaced by another euphemism.  It wouldn't surprise me if in a few years'
> time the word "gay" was seen as
> "inappropriate" (a word I hate as much as "politically correct") and had
> to be replaced by another term.
>
> And different people like to refer to themselves in different ways.  Some
> women in the USA object to being called
> "ladies".  But some ladies in England object to being called "women"!
> Similarly some gypsies like being called
> "gypsies", and I'm guessing that they would object to the word
> "travellers" because that would include people who chose
> to follow a travelling way of life but were not real gypsies.
>
> So I'm with Tom Hinds - always be respectful, not intentionally
> disrespectful.
>
> Colin Hume
>
> Email co...@colinhume.com  Web site http://colinhume.com
> ___
> List Name:  Callers mailing list
> List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
> Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
>
___
List Name:  Callers mailing list
List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/

Re: [Callers] Politically Correct?

[Colin Hume via Callers]

I'm going to be controversial, so please think hard about what I'm saying - and 
why you're reacting to it the way you
are - before replying.

I think "Political correctness" is mainly an American problem, though it seems 
to be spreading to England too.

The word "nigger" was not originally a pejorative term, just a description - 
it's the Latin word for "black" with the
"g" doubled. Since then it has become "black", "negro", "coloured", "of colour" 
and "African-American" (not much use in
England, that last one), and possibly others that I don't know about.  But this 
"political correctness" is treating the
symptom, not the disease.

If we look down on black people, or women, or homosexuals, or gypsies, or 
people with mental or physical disabilities,
then any word we choose to label them with eventually comes to mean "those 
people we look down on", and has to be
replaced by another euphemism.  It wouldn't surprise me if in a few years' time 
the word "gay" was seen as
"inappropriate" (a word I hate as much as "politically correct") and had to be 
replaced by another term.

And different people like to refer to themselves in different ways.  Some women 
in the USA object to being called
"ladies".  But some ladies in England object to being called "women"!  
Similarly some gypsies like being called
"gypsies", and I'm guessing that they would object to the word "travellers" 
because that would include people who chose
to follow a travelling way of life but were not real gypsies.

So I'm with Tom Hinds - always be respectful, not intentionally disrespectful.

Colin Hume

Email co...@colinhume.com  Web site http://colinhume.com
___
List Name:  Callers mailing list
List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/

Re: [Callers] Politically Correct?

[Woody Lane via Callers]

Historically, a lot has changed. Take the traditional singing square 
"Marching Through Georgia." Does anyone really think the original song 
is about ambling with friends along a quiet country road near Atlanta?


I have a thin 1989 book "Just One More Dance" by Carole Howard. It lists 
scores of filler calls for Western Squares. A very wide range of filler 
calls. Some would be great today, but others, well  . . . Some examples:


"Buckskin breeches and calico dress
Let's head out to the cider press."

"Bite his ear and twist his tail,
Swing your honey, and home you sail."

"Grab that girl and kiss her twice,
Hurry up boys, here comes your wife."

"Promenade Rose, Promenade Myrtle,
Promenade the gal with the busted girdle."

"Spank them kids, listen to them squall.
Swing the opposite across the hall."

"Swing your partner and how-dee-do,
If I had a pistol, I'd shoot you."

"Allemande left like a broken hinge,
Grand right and left like a drunk on a binge."

"Good girls walk and bad girls ride,
Come on girls, my car's outside."

-  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -

Political correctness? H. How many of us would call these phrases 
today? Times have changed a bit, and so have our cultures and sensitivities.


I agree with Tom -- call the best you can, with respect; appreciate and 
respect but don't worry about the words of others. We are artists, not 
plumbers.


Woody



On 3/25/2018 10:36 AM, Yoyo Zhou via Callers wrote:

It looks like this is the version Rich is referring to:
http://www.ceder.net/recorddb/viewsingle.php?RecordId=1891

More background on the English folk song / sea shanty this American 
folk song is based on: 
https://mainlynorfolk.info/martin.carthy/songs/billyboy.html


In traditional songs things don't really have to work logically - for 
example, in this song, there's the lyric, "She's as tall as any pine, 
And as straight as a pumpkin vine." So the last verse of the song goes,


"How old may she be,
Billy Boy, Billy Boy?
How old may she be,
Charming Billy?
Three times six and four times seven,
Twenty eight and eleven,
She's a young thing,
And cannot leave her mother."

This, despite the questionable math, puts the refrain into a very 
ironic context.


My understanding of square dance singing calls is that many of them 
were set to popular music of the time (though I have no idea about 
this particular one). So if your audience was expected to know this 
song and the context behind the refrain, that would be one thing. 
Notably, though, the square dance-edited version is missing this 
context, and it adds the line"Promenade this pretty thing, won't you 
help me to sing" to the refrain, "She's a young thing, And cannot 
leave her mother"! So it'd be quite something else to hear this line 
on its own, which makes it sound like you should be promenading with 
your underage partners/corners.


There's no universal answer to "is this acceptable" because it depends 
on your "contra dance crowd" who is doing the accepting - this can 
vary widely between dances, even within the same city. You'll have to 
figure out if the dancers are ok with it as is, might be ok with it if 
you give them some background about the song before you do the 
walkthrough, or would not be ok even with that. However, I think 
you'll find a lot of other material is less objectionable to any 
audience (and you already have some intuition for this, since you 
asked the callers list about this one).


Yoyo Zhou

On Sun, Mar 25, 2018 at 9:40 AM, Darwin Gregory via Callers 
> wrote:


If you are concerned about sexism alternate between she/her and
he/his.  😎

On Sun, Mar 25, 2018, 1:39 AM Alexandra Deis-Lauby via Callers
mailto:callers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote:

People are not things. I don’t think it’s appropriate for any
crowd.
Try your hand at some new lyrics!

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 25, 2018, at 1:12 AM, Rich Sbardella via Callers
mailto:callers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote:


Hello folks,

I have been calling singing squares for years, and there is
one I love by Dick Leger titled Billy Boy.  The tag line that
is sung during the Promenade is "She's a young thing, that
cannot leave her mother."

Here is a link to a version of the full song, not within a
square.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKRJuLHU3Qo


My question is, is this song appropriate for the contra dance
crowd with the tag line above?  (The tag line is the only
line that is sung.)

Any Thoughts?

Rich
Stafford, CT




___
List Name:  Callers mailing list
List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.ne

Re: [Callers] Politically Correct?

[Cara Sawyer via Callers]

I feel that the old dances, like old movies, shouldn’t be left in the dust 
because they are offensive in our modern context. Rather we can take them in 
their context, as a relic of an older day. 

I happen to LOVE the song Billy Boy, it was on a movie I saw as a child and was 
one of the few pieces of folk music I was exposed to as a child growing up in 
suburbia. “She’s a young thing” sounds endearing to me, though of course dated 
and somewhat archaic. It also just happens to be the way people talked them. 

We as callers can perhaps help moderate this, with an introduction that puts 
the dance in a context for the dancers where it is less offensive and more what 
in classical music is called a “period piece”- that is, a work that is 
performed with an understanding by all that it is a dated, but valuable piece 
of art that we can keep alive. 
My caution is to not throw the baby out with the bath water, whatever folks 
decide. 
Happy dancing!
Cara

> On Mar 25, 2018, at 19:22, Robert Livingston via Callers 
>  wrote:
> 
> I visited, more than once, an assisted living home, here in CT, to talk to a 
> prominent caller of "back in the day".
> He told of dancing as a teen.  So many young folks did then.  The call was 
> "swing her in the center and kiss her if you dare".
> He stammered and turned red as she poked fun at his shyness.  They both ended 
> up on the floor.  They became friends, not 
> dates; but he did take her to the Senior Ball, filling in for her steady 
> boyfriend, who for some reason, couldn't.
> 
>  I still call - by a lady's request - Girl I Left Behind Me: "swing that 
> girl, she's a cute little girl, swing that girl behind you - pass 
> right thru, and balance too" - her favorite!   Then there's "push her away 
> and watch her grin pull her right back and swing her again - 
> push her away and watch her smile - pull her right in and swing her awhile."  
> It comes up.
> 
> Singing calls are indigenous to the US.  And ubiquitous - back in the day of 
> my shy caller.
> 
> Bob Livingston
> Middletown, CT
> 
> On Sunday, March 25, 2018, 1:12:51 AM EDT, Rich Sbardella via Callers 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> Hello folks,
> 
> I have been calling singing squares for years, and there is one I love by 
> Dick Leger titled Billy Boy.  The tag line that is sung during the Promenade 
> is "She's a young thing, that cannot leave her mother."
> 
> Here is a link to a version of the full song, not within a square.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKRJuLHU3Qo
> 
> My question is, is this song appropriate for the contra dance crowd with the 
> tag line above?  (The tag line is the only line that is sung.)
> 
> Any Thoughts?
> 
> Rich
> Stafford, CT
> ___
> List Name:  Callers mailing list
> List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
> Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
> ___
> List Name:  Callers mailing list
> List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
> Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
___
List Name:  Callers mailing list
List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/

Re: [Callers] Politically Correct?

[Robert Livingston via Callers]

 I visited, more than once, an assisted living home, here in CT, to talk to a 
prominent caller of "back in the day".He told of dancing as a teen.  So many 
young folks did then.  The call was "swing her in the center and kiss her if 
you dare".He stammered and turned red as she poked fun at his shyness.  They 
both ended up on the floor.  They became friends, not 
dates; but he did take her to the Senior Ball, filling in for her steady 
boyfriend, who for some reason, couldn't.
 I still call - by a lady's request - Girl I Left Behind Me: "swing that girl, 
she's a cute little girl, swing that girl behind you - pass 
right thru, and balance too" - her favorite!   Then there's "push her away and 
watch her grin pull her right back and swing her again - 
 push her away and watch her smile - pull her right in and swing her awhile."  
It comes up.
Singing calls are indigenous to the US.  And ubiquitous - back in the day of my 
shy caller.
Bob LivingstonMiddletown, CT

On Sunday, March 25, 2018, 1:12:51 AM EDT, Rich Sbardella via Callers 
 wrote:  
 
 Hello folks,
I have been calling singing squares for years, and there is one I love by Dick 
Leger titled Billy Boy.  The tag line that is sung during the Promenade is 
"She's a young thing, that cannot leave her mother."
Here is a link to a version of the full song, not within a square.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKRJuLHU3Qo

My question is, is this song appropriate for the contra dance crowd with the 
tag line above?  (The tag line is the only line that is sung.)
Any Thoughts?
RichStafford, CT___
List Name:  Callers mailing list
List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
  ___
List Name:  Callers mailing list
List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/

Re: [Callers] Politically Correct?

[Alexandra Deis-Lauby via Callers]

Often people don’t speak up. It doesn’t mean they like the language. There 
aren’t very many dances that actively solicit feedback and even the ones that 
do don’t get it all the time. There are often callers or phrases that bother 
me. I very occasionally  tell the callers if they are friends of mine or the 
organizers if I know them. Otherwise, I just avoid those dances and callers. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 25, 2018, at 5:48 PM, John Freeman  wrote:
> 
> I have to agree with Tom. The only push back I have ever received was from 
> two female callers I helped get started. This was in the early 90s. I have 
> otherwise never had a complaint about calling singing square dances as they 
> have been traditionally called/sung. 
> 
> That said, I try to know my crowd before I accept a gig. A so-called 
> politically correct dance would likely not be my cup of whiskey. These days I 
> mostly call “barn dances” and "community dances”.  I have learn to adapt my 
> calls to each crowd. This has worked very well for me.
> 
> I only call to live music. This is a long-standing personal choice that has 
> certainly cost me many gigs. These days, I cannot expect most bands to know 
> the music for the singing square dances I grew up with.
> 
> Keep on dancing!
> 
> John B. Freeman, SFTPOCJ
> 
___
List Name:  Callers mailing list
List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/

Re: [Callers] Politically Correct?

[John Freeman via Callers]

I have to agree with Tom. The only push back I have ever received was from two 
female callers I helped get started. This was in the early 90s. I have 
otherwise never had a complaint about calling singing square dances as they 
have been traditionally called/sung. 

That said, I try to know my crowd before I accept a gig. A so-called 
politically correct dance would likely not be my cup of whiskey. These days I 
mostly call “barn dances” and "community dances”.  I have learn to adapt my 
calls to each crowd. This has worked very well for me.

I only call to live music. This is a long-standing personal choice that has 
certainly cost me many gigs. These days, I cannot expect most bands to know the 
music for the singing square dances I grew up with.

Keep on dancing!

John B. Freeman, SFTPOCJ

___
List Name:  Callers mailing list
List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/

Re: [Callers] Politically Correct?

[Yoyo Zhou via Callers]

It looks like this is the version Rich is referring to:
http://www.ceder.net/recorddb/viewsingle.php?RecordId=1891

More background on the English folk song / sea shanty this American folk
song is based on:
https://mainlynorfolk.info/martin.carthy/songs/billyboy.html

In traditional songs things don't really have to work logically - for
example, in this song, there's the lyric, "She's as tall as any pine, And
as straight as a pumpkin vine." So the last verse of the song goes,

"How old may she be,
Billy Boy, Billy Boy?
How old may she be,
Charming Billy?
Three times six and four times seven,
Twenty eight and eleven,
She's a young thing,
And cannot leave her mother."

This, despite the questionable math, puts the refrain into a very ironic
context.

My understanding of square dance singing calls is that many of them were
set to popular music of the time (though I have no idea about this
particular one). So if your audience was expected to know this song and the
context behind the refrain, that would be one thing. Notably, though, the
square dance-edited version is missing this context, and it adds the
line "Promenade
this pretty thing, won't you help me to sing" to the refrain, "She's a
young thing, And cannot leave her mother"! So it'd be quite something else
to hear this line on its own, which makes it sound like you should be
promenading with your underage partners/corners.

There's no universal answer to "is this acceptable" because it depends on
your "contra dance crowd" who is doing the accepting - this can vary widely
between dances, even within the same city. You'll have to figure out if the
dancers are ok with it as is, might be ok with it if you give them some
background about the song before you do the walkthrough, or would not be ok
even with that. However, I think you'll find a lot of other material is
less objectionable to any audience (and you already have some intuition for
this, since you asked the callers list about this one).

Yoyo Zhou

On Sun, Mar 25, 2018 at 9:40 AM, Darwin Gregory via Callers <
callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> If you are concerned about sexism alternate between she/her and he/his.  😎
>
> On Sun, Mar 25, 2018, 1:39 AM Alexandra Deis-Lauby via Callers <
> callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
>> People are not things. I don’t think it’s appropriate for any crowd.
>> Try your hand at some new lyrics!
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Mar 25, 2018, at 1:12 AM, Rich Sbardella via Callers <
>> callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>
>> Hello folks,
>>
>> I have been calling singing squares for years, and there is one I love by
>> Dick Leger titled Billy Boy.  The tag line that is sung during the
>> Promenade is "She's a young thing, that cannot leave her mother."
>>
>> Here is a link to a version of the full song, not within a square.
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKRJuLHU3Qo
>>
>> My question is, is this song appropriate for the contra dance crowd with
>> the tag line above?  (The tag line is the only line that is sung.)
>>
>> Any Thoughts?
>>
>> Rich
>> Stafford, CT
>>
>> ___
>> List Name:  Callers mailing list
>> List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
>> Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
>>
>> ___
>> List Name:  Callers mailing list
>> List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
>> Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
>>
>
> ___
> List Name:  Callers mailing list
> List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
> Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
>
>
___
List Name:  Callers mailing list
List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/

Re: [Callers] Politically Correct?

[Darwin Gregory via Callers]

If you are concerned about sexism alternate between she/her and he/his.  😎

On Sun, Mar 25, 2018, 1:39 AM Alexandra Deis-Lauby via Callers <
callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> People are not things. I don’t think it’s appropriate for any crowd.
> Try your hand at some new lyrics!
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Mar 25, 2018, at 1:12 AM, Rich Sbardella via Callers <
> callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
> Hello folks,
>
> I have been calling singing squares for years, and there is one I love by
> Dick Leger titled Billy Boy.  The tag line that is sung during the
> Promenade is "She's a young thing, that cannot leave her mother."
>
> Here is a link to a version of the full song, not within a square.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKRJuLHU3Qo
>
> My question is, is this song appropriate for the contra dance crowd with
> the tag line above?  (The tag line is the only line that is sung.)
>
> Any Thoughts?
>
> Rich
> Stafford, CT
>
> ___
> List Name:  Callers mailing list
> List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
> Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
>
> ___
> List Name:  Callers mailing list
> List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
> Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
>
___
List Name:  Callers mailing list
List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/

Re: [Callers] Politically Correct?

[Mary Collins via Callers]

Rich,
I agree with Tom. This is one of the most traditional tunes I grew up with.
Isn't one of CDSS' objectives to promote and continue TRADITIONAL song...

I say leave it alone.

Mary

On Sun, Mar 25, 2018, 1:12 AM Rich Sbardella via Callers <
callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> Hello folks,
>
> I have been calling singing squares for years, and there is one I love by
> Dick Leger titled Billy Boy.  The tag line that is sung during the
> Promenade is "She's a young thing, that cannot leave her mother."
>
> Here is a link to a version of the full song, not within a square.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKRJuLHU3Qo
>
> My question is, is this song appropriate for the contra dance crowd with
> the tag line above?  (The tag line is the only line that is sung.)
>
> Any Thoughts?
>
> Rich
> Stafford, CT
> ___
> List Name:  Callers mailing list
> List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
> Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
>
___
List Name:  Callers mailing list
List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/

Re: [Callers] Politically Correct?

[Rich Sbardella via Callers]

Yes Bob,

You are correct, but the tag line for each verse remains the same.  I would
have to find a word to replace  -young "thing".

I think perhaps it is a generational thing.  I have been calling this song
to my seniors who are about 75% women in their 70's and 80s and they sing
along.  No objections.  In fact many remember it as a child.  There are
certainly some contra venues where I would expect a similar response, but
others that would cringe.

"Such a sweet young thing" used to be a term of endearment for Ladies and
Gents, but times change.

In MWSD, boys and girls are the default role terms, and I called MWSD for
25 years.  However, I remember accidentally using the term girls in a
square for a contra community a few years back, and immediately after the
square, I had a dancer approach me and voice her concerns.

This is one of the reasons I posed the original question.

Peace,
Rich



On Sun, Mar 25, 2018 at 9:35 AM, Bob Hofkin via Callers <
callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

>
> If I recall the folk song, it's more satirical--she can bake a cherry pie
> and stuff, and turns out to be older than Billy lets on. See if you can't
> find lines in one of the versions that shift the focus.
>
> Bob
>
> On 3/25/2018 02:07, Don Veino via Callers wrote:
>
>> I've started doing singing squares over the past year and have been making
>> adjustments to lyrics for each one I do. So far the changes have been
>> relatively easy - mostly eliminating explicit gender and talking to
>> everyone whenever possible vs. a "talk to the (assumed) lead" focus.
>>
>> There are real challenges for me in some popular ones - for example,
>> despite the fun of the sequence, Smoke on the Water's
>> https://squaredancehistory.org/items/show/1383 refrain's primary phrase
>> essentially amounts to "we'll kill 'em all" - as it's taken from a 1944
>> WWII song. I'm personally not ready to call that knowing the meaning and a
>> significant re-wording of the key refrain is not likely to go over well
>> with fans of the dance.
>>
>> On Sun, Mar 25, 2018 at 1:39 AM, Alexandra Deis-Lauby via Callers <
>> callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>
>> People are not things. I don’t think it’s appropriate for any crowd.
>>> Try your hand at some new lyrics!
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On Mar 25, 2018, at 1:12 AM, Rich Sbardella via Callers <
>>> callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hello folks,
>>>
>>> I have been calling singing squares for years, and there is one I love by
>>> Dick Leger titled Billy Boy.  The tag line that is sung during the
>>> Promenade is "She's a young thing, that cannot leave her mother."
>>>
>>> Here is a link to a version of the full song, not within a square.
>>>
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKRJuLHU3Qo
>>>
>>> My question is, is this song appropriate for the contra dance crowd with
>>> the tag line above?  (The tag line is the only line that is sung.)
>>>
>>> Any Thoughts?
>>>
>>> Rich
>>> Stafford, CT
>>>
>>> ___
>>> List Name:  Callers mailing list
>>> List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
>>> Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>>> List Name:  Callers mailing list
>>> List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
>>> Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> List Name:  Callers mailing list
>> List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
>> Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
>>
>>
> ___
> List Name:  Callers mailing list
> List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
> Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
>
___
List Name:  Callers mailing list
List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/

Re: [Callers] Politically Correct?

[Bob Hofkin via Callers]

If I recall the folk song, it's more satirical--she can bake a cherry 
pie and stuff, and turns out to be older than Billy lets on. See if you 
can't find lines in one of the versions that shift the focus.


Bob

On 3/25/2018 02:07, Don Veino via Callers wrote:

I've started doing singing squares over the past year and have been making
adjustments to lyrics for each one I do. So far the changes have been
relatively easy - mostly eliminating explicit gender and talking to
everyone whenever possible vs. a "talk to the (assumed) lead" focus.

There are real challenges for me in some popular ones - for example,
despite the fun of the sequence, Smoke on the Water's
https://squaredancehistory.org/items/show/1383 refrain's primary phrase
essentially amounts to "we'll kill 'em all" - as it's taken from a 1944
WWII song. I'm personally not ready to call that knowing the meaning and a
significant re-wording of the key refrain is not likely to go over well
with fans of the dance.

On Sun, Mar 25, 2018 at 1:39 AM, Alexandra Deis-Lauby via Callers <
callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:


People are not things. I don’t think it’s appropriate for any crowd.
Try your hand at some new lyrics!

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 25, 2018, at 1:12 AM, Rich Sbardella via Callers <
callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

Hello folks,

I have been calling singing squares for years, and there is one I love by
Dick Leger titled Billy Boy.  The tag line that is sung during the
Promenade is "She's a young thing, that cannot leave her mother."

Here is a link to a version of the full song, not within a square.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKRJuLHU3Qo

My question is, is this song appropriate for the contra dance crowd with
the tag line above?  (The tag line is the only line that is sung.)

Any Thoughts?

Rich
Stafford, CT

___
List Name:  Callers mailing list
List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/


___
List Name:  Callers mailing list
List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/






___
List Name:  Callers mailing list
List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/



___
List Name:  Callers mailing list
List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/

Re: [Callers] Politically Correct?

[Tom Hinds via Callers]

In the land of freedom and rugged individualism I find that my choices in many 
realms of my life are being eaten away.

Go for it!   Call what you want and don't worry about what others are going to 
say.  For me the PC stuff has gone over board.  Calling is difficult enough 
without having to be paranoid about everything you say.  Yes always be 
respectful, not intentionally disrespectful.

I was surprised when calling at Glen Echo last Sunday.  I warned the crowd that 
I'll try not to use "gypsy" but having called for 35 years I may slip up.  The 
rolling of eyes and moaning etc. of practically all of the dancers told me that 
none of the dancers there give a hoot about gypsy and find the rule silly.  I 
respect the decisions of any dance community for setting guidelines etc but 
wonder how representative of the people some of these decisions are.

Tom Hinds



Sent from my iPad

> On Mar 25, 2018, at 1:39 AM, Alexandra Deis-Lauby via Callers 
>  wrote:
> 
> People are not things. I don’t think it’s appropriate for any crowd. 
> Try your hand at some new lyrics! 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Mar 25, 2018, at 1:12 AM, Rich Sbardella via Callers 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Hello folks,
>> 
>> I have been calling singing squares for years, and there is one I love by 
>> Dick Leger titled Billy Boy.  The tag line that is sung during the Promenade 
>> is "She's a young thing, that cannot leave her mother."
>> 
>> Here is a link to a version of the full song, not within a square.
>> 
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKRJuLHU3Qo
>> 
>> My question is, is this song appropriate for the contra dance crowd with the 
>> tag line above?  (The tag line is the only line that is sung.)
>> 
>> Any Thoughts?
>> 
>> Rich
>> Stafford, CT
>> ___
>> List Name:  Callers mailing list
>> List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
>> Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
> ___
> List Name:  Callers mailing list
> List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
> Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
___
List Name:  Callers mailing list
List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/

Re: [Callers] Politically Correct?

[Don Veino via Callers]

I've started doing singing squares over the past year and have been making
adjustments to lyrics for each one I do. So far the changes have been
relatively easy - mostly eliminating explicit gender and talking to
everyone whenever possible vs. a "talk to the (assumed) lead" focus.

There are real challenges for me in some popular ones - for example,
despite the fun of the sequence, Smoke on the Water's
https://squaredancehistory.org/items/show/1383 refrain's primary phrase
essentially amounts to "we'll kill 'em all" - as it's taken from a 1944
WWII song. I'm personally not ready to call that knowing the meaning and a
significant re-wording of the key refrain is not likely to go over well
with fans of the dance.

On Sun, Mar 25, 2018 at 1:39 AM, Alexandra Deis-Lauby via Callers <
callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> People are not things. I don’t think it’s appropriate for any crowd.
> Try your hand at some new lyrics!
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Mar 25, 2018, at 1:12 AM, Rich Sbardella via Callers <
> callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
> Hello folks,
>
> I have been calling singing squares for years, and there is one I love by
> Dick Leger titled Billy Boy.  The tag line that is sung during the
> Promenade is "She's a young thing, that cannot leave her mother."
>
> Here is a link to a version of the full song, not within a square.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKRJuLHU3Qo
>
> My question is, is this song appropriate for the contra dance crowd with
> the tag line above?  (The tag line is the only line that is sung.)
>
> Any Thoughts?
>
> Rich
> Stafford, CT
>
> ___
> List Name:  Callers mailing list
> List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
> Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
>
>
> ___
> List Name:  Callers mailing list
> List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
> Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
>
>
___
List Name:  Callers mailing list
List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/

Re: [Callers] Politically Correct?

[Robert Golder via Callers]

Thus did Ophelia's suicide become merely an accidental drowning, thanks to 
Thomas Bowdler, who criticized Shakespeare for exposing his readers to "the 
danger of being hurt with any indelicacy of expression."

On Mar 25, 2018, at 1:39 AM, Alexandra Deis-Lauby via Callers 
 wrote:

> People are not things. I don’t think it’s appropriate for any crowd. 
> Try your hand at some new lyrics! 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Mar 25, 2018, at 1:12 AM, Rich Sbardella via Callers 
>  wrote:
> 
>> Hello folks,
>> 
>> I have been calling singing squares for years, and there is one I love by 
>> Dick Leger titled Billy Boy.  The tag line that is sung during the Promenade 
>> is "She's a young thing, that cannot leave her mother."
>> 
>> Here is a link to a version of the full song, not within a square.
>> 
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKRJuLHU3Qo
>> 
>> My question is, is this song appropriate for the contra dance crowd with the 
>> tag line above?  (The tag line is the only line that is sung.)
>> 
>> Any Thoughts?
>> 
>> Rich
>> Stafford, CT
>> ___
>> List Name:  Callers mailing list
>> List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
>> Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
> ___
> List Name:  Callers mailing list
> List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
> Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/

___
List Name:  Callers mailing list
List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/

Re: [Callers] Politically Correct?

[Alexandra Deis-Lauby via Callers]

People are not things. I don’t think it’s appropriate for any crowd. 
Try your hand at some new lyrics! 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 25, 2018, at 1:12 AM, Rich Sbardella via Callers 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hello folks,
> 
> I have been calling singing squares for years, and there is one I love by 
> Dick Leger titled Billy Boy.  The tag line that is sung during the Promenade 
> is "She's a young thing, that cannot leave her mother."
> 
> Here is a link to a version of the full song, not within a square.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKRJuLHU3Qo
> 
> My question is, is this song appropriate for the contra dance crowd with the 
> tag line above?  (The tag line is the only line that is sung.)
> 
> Any Thoughts?
> 
> Rich
> Stafford, CT
> ___
> List Name:  Callers mailing list
> List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
> Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
___
List Name:  Callers mailing list
List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/