[Catalyst] Last Chance / Last Day: Web development platform contest and Perl / Catalyst

[Alvar Freude]

Hi!

-- some days ago I wrote:

> There is an international contest and comparison with scientific
> evaluation about programming languages (and frameworks) for web 
> development.
> 
>   

Reminder: Today is the last day you can send your request of participation!


> If you want to participate or if you have already filled out the 
> "Request for admittance", 
> 
>   
> 
> then it would be good if you join the perl mailing list to the contest:
> 
>   


Ciao
  Alvar

-- 
** Alvar C.H. Freude, http://alvar.a-blast.org/
** http://www.wen-waehlen.de/
** http://odem.org/
** http://www.assoziations-blaster.de/


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AW: [Catalyst] Last Chance / Last Day: Web development platform contestand Perl / Catalyst

[Sascha Kiefer]

Do we have any participates yet?

>Hi!
>
>-- some days ago I wrote:
>
>> There is an international contest and comparison with scientific
>> evaluation about programming languages (and frameworks) for web 
>> development.
>> 
>>   
>
>Reminder: Today is the last day you can send your request of participation!
>
>
>> If you want to participate or if you have already filled out the 
>> "Request for admittance", 
>> 
>>   
>> 
>> then it would be good if you join the perl mailing list to the contest:
>> 
>>   
>
>
>Ciao
>  Alvar
>
>-- 
>** Alvar C.H. Freude, http://alvar.a-blast.org/
>** http://www.wen-waehlen.de/
>** http://odem.org/
>** http://www.assoziations-blaster.de/
>
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Re: AW: [Catalyst] Last Chance / Last Day: Web development platform contestand Perl / Catalyst

[Alvar Freude]

Hi,

-- Sascha Kiefer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Do we have any participates yet?

there is one Catalyst team from Geneva.

And there are several teams that are interested to participate, but I have
no definitive answer yet.


So at the moment I think it would be good if we get at least one more them.


Ciao
  Alvar


-- 
** Alvar C.H. Freude, http://alvar.a-blast.org/
** http://www.wen-waehlen.de/
** http://odem.org/
** http://www.assoziations-blaster.de/


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Re: [Catalyst] Last Chance / Last Day: Web development platform contestand Perl / Catalyst

[Cédric Bouvier]

Quoting Sascha Kiefer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> Do we have any participates yet?
>

Yes, we do. But we have only one team, not only for Catalyst, but for Perl as a
whole :-(

--
Cedric Bouvier

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Re: [Catalyst] Last Chance / Last Day: Web development platform contestand Perl / Catalyst

[Jonathan Rockway]

Cédric Bouvier wrote:
> Quoting Sascha Kiefer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> 
>> Do we have any participates yet?
> 
> Yes, we do. But we have only one team, not only for Catalyst, but for Perl as 
> a
> whole :-(

Seems like a waste anyway.  Is Perl really going to win a competition
sponsored by Zend?

(playing into the hands of Zend's marketing department)++ # cough.

-- 
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$,.=reverse qw[Jonathan tsu rehton lre rekca Rockway][$_].[split //,
";$;"]->[$_].q; ;for 1..4;$,=~s;^.;;;$,});$;->setup;

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Re: [Catalyst] Last Chance / Last Day: Web development platform contestand Perl / Catalyst

[Sebastian Riedel]

Jonathan Rockway wrote:

Seems like a waste anyway.  Is Perl really going to win a competition
sponsored by Zend?

(playing into the hands of Zend's marketing department)++ # cough
  

There will be no overall winner, just one per platform.
So the more teams your platform has the better you look.

Having only one team for Perl is quite bad,
especially since one of the organizers happens to be the iX magazine 
(http://www.heise.de/ix/),

which has a big influence in the german speaking world. :/

--
sebastian

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Re: [Catalyst] Last Chance / Last Day: Web development platform contestand Perl / Catalyst

[Alvar Freude]

Hi,

-- Cédric Bouvier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Yes, we do. But we have only one team, not only for Catalyst, but for
> Perl as a whole :-(

we have two Perl teams, one Catalyst, one Mason. 

We need at least (!) one more Perl team.


There are two or three teams which are interested in participating, but I
got no final status yet.


So, it would be good if the Catalyst community can spend one more team. Or
tow, three ... ;-)


Having more teams should be good for several reasons: we can show that Perl
isn't dead (at the moment it looks half-dead), and there are more options
to choose from.


Ciao
  Alvar

-- 
** Alvar C.H. Freude, http://alvar.a-blast.org/
** http://www.wen-waehlen.de/
** http://odem.org/
** http://www.assoziations-blaster.de/


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Re: [Catalyst] Last Chance / Last Day: Web development platform contestand Perl / Catalyst

[Jonathan Rockway]

Sebastian Riedel wrote:
> Jonathan Rockway wrote:
>> Seems like a waste anyway.  Is Perl really going to win a competition
>> sponsored by Zend?
>>
>> (playing into the hands of Zend's marketing department)++ # cough
>>   
> There will be no overall winner, just one per platform.
> So the more teams your platform has the better you look.
> 
> Having only one team for Perl is quite bad,
> especially since one of the organizers happens to be the iX magazine
> (http://www.heise.de/ix/),
> which has a big influence in the german speaking world. :/

Yeah, I know *I'm* going to abandon Perl as a result of the contest.  I
mean, Perl's not cool anymore right?  Speed and features are for Web 1.0
losers!



-- 
package JAPH;use Catalyst qw/-Debug/;($;=JAPH)->config(name => do {
$,.=reverse qw[Jonathan tsu rehton lre rekca Rockway][$_].[split //,
";$;"]->[$_].q; ;for 1..4;$,=~s;^.;;;$,});$;->setup;

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[Catalyst] How to set config of Controller in YAML file?

[Hideo Kimura]

Hi,

Does anybody knows how to set config of each Controllers in YAML file?
Before I can do it following way with ConfigLoader, but it doesn't work now.

in yml file
Controller::Foo:
  foo: bar

in controller
sub default : Private {
my ($self, $c) = @_;

my $config = $self->config;
...
}

Thanks

--
hide



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Re: [Catalyst] Last Chance / Last Day: Web development platform contestand Perl / Catalyst

[Sebastian Riedel]

Jonathan Rockway wrote:

Yeah, I know *I'm* going to abandon Perl as a result of the contest.  I
mean, Perl's not cool anymore right?  Speed and features are for Web 1.0
losers!


  
Yeah, lets just ignore marketing completely, who needs new users, they 
are just annoying anyway.




:-)

--
sebastian

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Re: [Catalyst] Last Chance / Last Day: Web development platform contestand Perl / Catalyst

[Alvar Freude]

Hi,

-- Jonathan Rockway <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Seems like a waste anyway.  Is Perl really going to win a competition
> sponsored by Zend?

Every Perl-using company is free to do sponsoring.
But the competition is NOT analysed by Zend or other sponsoring companies.

It will be analysed by an independent team at the University of Berlin. And
I am sure, that neighter Prof. Prechelt nor the iX magazine do anything to
prefer a sponsor or their preferred language. 


So, if you want to play into the hands of Zend's marketing department, you
have to show that everything else is not dead and that everything else is
better then PHP. 

You can't compete PHP when diving away.


Ciao
  Alvar 


-- 
** Alvar C.H. Freude, http://alvar.a-blast.org/
** http://www.wen-waehlen.de/
** http://odem.org/
** http://www.assoziations-blaster.de/


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Re: [Catalyst] Last Chance / Last Day: Web developmentplatformcontestand Perl / Catalyst

[Tobias Kremer]

> Having only one team for Perl is quite bad,
> especially since one of the organizers happens to be the iX magazine
> (http://www.heise.de/ix/),
> which has a big influence in the german speaking world. :/

Today I was in a meeting with one of Germany's top twenty
internet agencies to speak about the future of our (home-brewed Perl-based)
community app. I spoke to the person in charge of technology who
of course tried to persuade me that Java and .Net/C# is the
way to go. Even worse, he was convinced that Perl has no object-
orientation features at all! He was surprised when I told him
about the CPAN and Perl's flexible object capabilities.
Unfortunately this is not an isolated case.
One of Germany's most successful web portals serving several
hundred million page impressions per month with Perl recently
started hiring Java developers.

I hate to say this, but Perl is really lacking some sort of marketing.
To my mind Catalyst could be the new killer-app that has the potential to
resurrect our favorite language. But not if we can't get the word out.
This is really frustrating. Catalyst's website is one big mess. Go to
the wiki section and you get gazillions of links on one page. Click on
documentation and you receive ugly POD pages. This is just not up to
standards set by other frameworks. Don't get me wrong: The content and
documentation is better than most other frameworks but the presentation
just sucks. I recently met another fellow perl dude and we're currently
brainstorming what has to change to make Perl and the Catalyst project
more appealing to the average CTO, technical lead, dude-who-is-in-charge-
but-thinks-perl-is-dead :)

Sorry, had to get this off of my mind ...

-- Tobias

P.S. I read that the upcoming issue of the iX magazine will feature an
article about web development with Catalyst ...


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Re: [Catalyst] Last Chance / Last Day: Web development platform contestand Perl / Catalyst

[Brandon Black]

On 11/30/06, Alvar Freude <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Having more teams should be good for several reasons: we can show that Perl
isn't dead (at the moment it looks half-dead), and there are more options
to choose from.



IMHO, Perl does *not* look half dead.

The rate of CPAN modules uploaded per year continues to rise, anyone
could name a litany of high and low profile sites that still run perl,
and the perl job market is great.  Active cutting-edge development
continues in both p5 and of course the various p6-related efforts.
Perl has never been a slick, well-marketed language, but it is still
the duct-tape of the Internet.

In spite of Perl's complete lack of kissing up to the "Enterprise"
world, it's still an A-rated language on the TIOBE index:
http://www.tiobe.com/index.htm?tiobe_index

The lack of participants in a competition like this says to me that
most Perl developers that could participate are just too busy with
real work to bother.

-- Brandon

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Re: [Catalyst] Last Chance / Last Day: Web developmentplatformcontestand Perl / Catalyst

[Sebastian Riedel]

Tobias Kremer wrote:

Today I was in a meeting with one of Germany's top twenty
internet agencies to speak about the future of our (home-brewed Perl-based)
community app. I spoke to the person in charge of technology who
of course tried to persuade me that Java and .Net/C# is the
way to go. Even worse, he was convinced that Perl has no object-
orientation features at all! He was surprised when I told him
about the CPAN and Perl's flexible object capabilities.
Unfortunately this is not an isolated case.
  

Yes, thats quite common sadly and caused only by lack of marketing.

One of Germany's most successful web portals serving several
hundred million page impressions per month with Perl recently
started hiring Java developers.
  
It's so absurd when you think about it, from script language back to 
compiled mess?

The opposite should be the case!

We really have to start learning from the Ruby folks,
take a look at these two books, it's pure marketing genius.

   From Java To Ruby: Things Every Manager Should Know 
(http://www.pragmaticprogrammer.com/titles/fr_j2r/index.html)
   Rails For Java Developers 
(http://www.pragmaticprogrammer.com/titles/fr_r4j/index.html)



I hate to say this, but Perl is really lacking some sort of marketing.
To my mind Catalyst could be the new killer-app that has the potential to
resurrect our favorite language. But not if we can't get the word out.
This is really frustrating. Catalyst's website is one big mess. Go to
the wiki section and you get gazillions of links on one page. Click on
documentation and you receive ugly POD pages. This is just not up to
standards set by other frameworks. Don't get me wrong: The content and
documentation is better than most other frameworks but the presentation
just sucks. I recently met another fellow perl dude and we're currently
brainstorming what has to change to make Perl and the Catalyst project
more appealing to the average CTO, technical lead, dude-who-is-in-charge-
but-thinks-perl-is-dead :)

I completely agree, but you don't get (good) marketing for free,
a company or The Perl Foundation would have to invest money in it.

Take a look at Java, PHP and Ruby, all the marketing initiatives can be 
traced back to a few smart companies.


(Please take a few minutes and think about it before flaming me, thanks)

P.S. I read that the upcoming issue of the iX magazine will feature an
article about web development with Catalyst ...
  
Just seen that too, will be fun to read. 
(http://www.heise.de/ix/vorschau.shtml) :)


--
sebastian

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Re: [Catalyst] Last Chance / Last Day: Web development platform contestand Perl / Catalyst

[Alvar Freude]

Hi,

-- Brandon Black <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> IMHO, Perl does *not* look half dead.

Perl IS NOT dead.

But for people who are not part of the Perl community, it either looks dead
(or only for some small shell scripting) or they don#t know it at all.

That's reality.

 
> The rate of CPAN modules uploaded per year continues to rise, anyone
> could name a litany of high and low profile sites that still run perl,
> and the perl job market is great.  Active cutting-edge development
> continues in both p5 and of course the various p6-related efforts.

yes, I know, I am using Perl every day.

But who knows this outside of the Perl community?

 
> The lack of participants in a competition like this says to me that
> most Perl developers that could participate are just too busy with
> real work to bother.

this is true for all the other languages too.


Ciao
  Alvar


-- 
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** http://www.wen-waehlen.de/
** http://odem.org/
** http://www.assoziations-blaster.de/


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Re: [Catalyst] Last Chance / Last Day: Web developmentplatformcontestand Perl / Catalyst

[Jonathan Rockway]

Sebastian Riedel wrote:
> Tobias Kremer wrote:
> Take a look at Java, PHP and Ruby, all the marketing initiatives can be
> traced back to a few smart companies.

What has the marketing gotten the community?  PHP and Ruby both suck in
comparison to Perl (features / unicode / modules / speed / knowing wtf
=== really means), despite the fact that money is being poured into both
of those languages by apparently-profitable companies.  It sounds to me
like they're spending all their money creatively lying about the facts,
whereas the p(?:[56]|arrot)-porters are actually improving their languages.

I for one don't really care if perl is "number one".  It's already
better -- what more do you really want?

BTW, here's the real problem with Perl.  It's too hard for dumb people
to learn.  PHP's "everything is a scalar" and "everything is a function"
is great.  You just slap a bunch of functions together and you're done!
 You have an unreadable and unmaintainable piece of crap, but who cares;
you're done!  You gone done made a website thar!

Now speaking as !(a dumb person) (ok ok, arguments about this off-list
please ;), I prefer Perl's syntax because I can say what I mean and have
the *compiler* figure out how to do things. [1]  Plus, there are
powerful features for me to draw upon and exploit -- MI, functional
elements (map / grep / sort {BLOCK} ...), closures, anonymous
subroutines, references, data structures that make sense to someone with
more than 15 minutes programming experience, etc.  Perl will never win
the language war because most people don't understand why it's good, and
never will.  (Ruby is "popular" because of 37signals' massive cash
outlay, and because it's different enough to excite people by "being
different".  Throwing away 30 years of what I know about programming is
a great idea!  It's fuuunnn!)

[1] PHP example -- look at preg_split, str_split, strtok, and explode.
What a freaking nightmare.  That is, unless your brain doesn't work, in
which case it's "cool to have fun toys to choose from".  The manual says
which to use in which case, and by reading that and picking "the right
one", the programmer gets to think "I'm smart, I'm OPTIMIZING!"  In
reality, the programmer is doing the work of an if statement, but hey...
"ZOMG I'M OPTIMIZING!"

I mention this because perl has one function, join, that does all of
these (except strtok, which you can do with a plain regex).  In PHP, you
have to use a different function to "optimize" for the plain-string
case.  In Perl, if your regex isn't really a regex (i.e. /foo/), then
perl can optimize for this and pick a faster algorithm. [/1]

Anyway, preaching to the choir here, so enough :)

Regards,
Jonathan Rockway

-- 
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$,.=reverse qw[Jonathan tsu rehton lre rekca Rockway][$_].[split //,
";$;"]->[$_].q; ;for 1..4;$,=~s;^.;;;$,});$;->setup;

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Re: [Catalyst] How to set config of Controller in YAML file?

[Matt S Trout]

Hideo Kimura wrote:

Hi,

Does anybody knows how to set config of each Controllers in YAML file?
Before I can do it following way with ConfigLoader, but it doesn't work now.

in yml file
Controller::Foo:
  foo: bar

in controller
sub default : Private {
my ($self, $c) = @_;

my $config = $self->config;
...
}


That's wrong, the class config is the prototype.

__PACKAGE__->mk_accessors(qw/foo/);

sub default : Private {
  my ($self, $c) = @_;
  warn $self->foo; # bar
}

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Re: [Catalyst] Last Chance / Last Day: Web development platform contest and Perl / Catalyst

[Thomas L. Shinnick]

At 03:07 PM 11/30/2006, Sebastian Riedel wrote:

Tobias Kremer wrote:

Today I was in a meeting with one of Germany's top twenty

[snip]


We really have to start learning from the Ruby folks,
take a look at these two books, it's pure marketing genius.

   From Java To Ruby: Things Every Manager Should Know 
(http://www.pragmaticprogrammer.com/titles/fr_j2r/index.html)
   Rails For Java Developers 
(http://www.pragmaticprogrammer.com/titles/fr_r4j/index.html)



I hate to say this, but Perl is really lacking some sort of marketing.

[snip]


I completely agree, but you don't get (good) marketing for free,
a company or The Perl Foundation would have to invest money in it.

Take a look at Java, PHP and Ruby, all the marketing initiatives can 
be traced back to a few smart companies.


(Please take a few minutes and think about it before flaming me, thanks)


Breaking in here, but something SRI said about "a few smart companies"

A couple months ago I read several articles about the phenomenon of 
"technology churn".  Basically the authors had identified a set of 
companies, consultants, and evangelists (trainers for hire) who kept 
reappearing over the years, but each time selling "the latest thing".


These people were making money off of 'selling' the latest 
fad/technology/methodology/you-name-it .  It's not that they were 
necessarily cynical - they may have genuinely believed "this time's 
for real!"  But after 'selling' two, three or more 'answers' over the 
years you would think they would have been ashamed?


What I'm pointing to is that people can profit from the sheer 
'newness' of a technology/methodology.


Enthusiasm is very hard to defeat.  And it is rather hard to get 
people enthusiastic about something as old as Perl.  Especially as 
people don't know anything 'new' about Perl.


Anyway, it is a factor somewhat apart from the others like FUD and 
management bias.  Heck, 'newness' even seems to be helping .Net and 
C# work against Java.  It's newer, so it must be better!


So I guess the question I'd like y'all to consider (that I have no answer for):
  How does one make Perl + Catalyst  'new' and 'sexy' enough to 
generate enthusiasm?


I expect that there will simply always be a large number of people 
who will read "Catalyst Framework in Perl" as "grandmother's new shoes" :-(




--
I'm a pessimist about probabilities; I'm an optimist about possibilities.
Lewis Mumford  (1895-1990)
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Re: [Catalyst] Last Chance / Last Day: Web development platform contestand Perl / Catalyst

[Sebastian Riedel]

Brandon Black wrote:

On 11/30/06, Alvar Freude <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Having more teams should be good for several reasons: we can show 
that Perl
isn't dead (at the moment it looks half-dead), and there are more 
options

to choose from.



IMHO, Perl does *not* look half dead.


If a lot of people outside the Perl community say it looks half dead, 
then it does to them.
Ignoring and/or denying doesn't make it better, you have to accept the 
feedback and react to it.



The rate of CPAN modules uploaded per year continues to rise, anyone
could name a litany of high and low profile sites that still run perl,
and the perl job market is great.  Active cutting-edge development
continues in both p5 and of course the various p6-related efforts.
Perl has never been a slick, well-marketed language, but it is still
the duct-tape of the Internet.


But the problem is nobody outside the Perl community notices it.

And p5 development is not as active as you might think,
just take a look at the comments under 
http://use.perl.org/~sri/journal/31519.


The quote "Perl5 is not dead, it's just very, very stable" sums it up 
quite well.



In spite of Perl's complete lack of kissing up to the "Enterprise"
world, it's still an A-rated language on the TIOBE index:
http://www.tiobe.com/index.htm?tiobe_index


But it's losing a lot of ground to Python and Ruby recently. 
(http://radar.oreilly.com/archives/2006/04/state_of_the_computer_book_mar_3.html)


--
sebastian

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[Catalyst] Re: Last Chance / Last Day: Web developmentplatformcontestand Perl / Catalyst

[A. Pagaltzis]

* Sebastian Riedel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2006-11-30 22:15]:
> Just seen that too, will be fun to read. 
> (http://www.heise.de/ix/vorschau.shtml) :)

Bwahaha,

lässt sich durch das Javascript-Framework Scriptaculous sogar
um Ajax-Funktionen erweitern.

Imagine! Catalyst can do Ajax!!!1 (But you need Scriptaculous.
I think.)


With tingling sarcasm gland,
-- 
Aristotle Pagaltzis // 

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Re: [Catalyst] Last Chance / Last Day: Web developmentplatformcontestand Perl / Catalyst

[Matt S Trout]

Tobias Kremer wrote:

I hate to say this, but Perl is really lacking some sort of marketing.
To my mind Catalyst could be the new killer-app that has the potential to
resurrect our favorite language. But not if we can't get the word out.
This is really frustrating. Catalyst's website is one big mess. Go to
the wiki section and you get gazillions of links on one page. Click on
documentation and you receive ugly POD pages. This is just not up to
standards set by other frameworks. Don't get me wrong: The content and
documentation is better than most other frameworks but the presentation
just sucks. I recently met another fellow perl dude and we're currently
brainstorming what has to change to make Perl and the Catalyst project
more appealing to the average CTO, technical lead, dude-who-is-in-charge-
but-thinks-perl-is-dead :)


Then subscribe to the catalyst-dev list and join in the discussions already 
started by the marketing team for working towards this!


There's already an active effort going on to improve this stuff, put the 
energy you just spent complaining towards working with the guys doing so next 
time :)


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Re: [Catalyst] Last Chance / Last Day: Web developmentplatformcontestand Perl / Catalyst

[Christopher H. Laco]

Off Topic, but my favorite thing about Perl is testing. (Stop laughing).
I'm very fond of the fact that perl just gets out of my way and let's me
test odd things easily (ala mocking, symbol tables/anon subs, etc).

Trying to unit test in things that need to be mocked in .NET is painful,
even with the mock object classes. It's their way (mock a class, or use
interfaces, but not subclasses) or the highway. In perl, I can just get
it done.

/me crawls back in his hole.
-=Chris



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Re: [Catalyst] Last Chance / Last Day: Web developmentplatformcontestand Perl / Catalyst

[Sebastian Riedel]

Jonathan Rockway wrote:

Sebastian Riedel wrote:
  

Tobias Kremer wrote:
Take a look at Java, PHP and Ruby, all the marketing initiatives can be
traced back to a few smart companies.



What has the marketing gotten the community?  PHP and Ruby both suck in
comparison to Perl (features / unicode / modules / speed / knowing wtf
=== really means), despite the fact that money is being poured into both
of those languages by apparently-profitable companies.  It sounds to me
like they're spending all their money creatively lying about the facts,
whereas the p(?:[56]|arrot)-porters are actually improving their languages.
  


You just gave a perfect example why Perl needs marketing. :)
It is better for a lot of things, but the problem is nobody outside the 
Perl community knows!


(As for Ruby, they are absolutely aware of their weaknesses and work 
very hard on fixing them.

YARV the new virtual machine has just been merged into the ruby repository.)


I for one don't really care if perl is "number one".  It's already
better -- what more do you really want?
  


Thats a bit short sighted, without new developers learning Perl you'll 
have a lack sooner or later.


--
sebastian

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Re: [Catalyst] Last Chance / Last Day: Web development platform contest and Perl / Catalyst

[Eden Cardim]

On 11/30/06, Thomas L. Shinnick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

 I expect that there will simply always be a large number of people who will
read "Catalyst Framework in Perl" as "grandmother's new shoes" :-(


Ha! That's SOooo true, whenever I deliver a Catalyst/Perl based
project, people ask me: "So, what'd you use? PHP? Ruby? Python? Java".
I answer: "err... Perl". The other guy: "C'mon, don't fool around with
me...". I really don't care, and I don't think anyone should,
actually, I like it. ;)

--
Eden Cardim
Instituto Baiano de Biotecnologia
Núcleo de Biologia Computacional e Gestão de Informações Biotecnológicas
Laboratório de Bioinformática
--
"you seem to think that 'close enough' is close enough...
please learn to be 'literal' around programming."
merlyn - on irc.freenode.net#perl

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[Catalyst] Re: Last Chance / Last Day: Web developmentplatformcontestand Perl / Catalyst

[A. Pagaltzis]

* Jonathan Rockway <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2006-11-30 22:30]:
> What has the marketing gotten the community?  PHP and Ruby both
> suck in comparison to Perl (features / unicode / modules
> / speed / knowing wtf === really means),

It has gotten them mindshare.

So what if they suck? Do you think Perl is perfect? Might it not
be that these languages are *better* than Perl in *some* ways,
even if not in others?

> It sounds to me like they're spending all their money
> creatively lying about the facts, whereas the
> p(?:[56]|arrot)-porters are actually improving their languages.

The companies are funding marketing, not development. Comparing
them to p5p is pointless. TPF would be a better analogy.

> I for one don't really care if perl is "number one".  It's
> already better -- what more do you really want?

So you don’t think there’s anything Perl can learn from these
languages? If Larry had started with that attitude, we wouldn’t
have Perl today.

> It's too hard for dumb people to learn.  PHP's "everything is
> a scalar" and "everything is a function" is great.  You just
> slap a bunch of functions together and you're done! You have an
> unreadable and unmaintainable piece of crap, but who cares;
> you're done!  You gone done made a website thar!

No, the problem with Perl is it’s too hard to install and
mod_perl is too hard for cheapo hosts to offer. And even if you
take those hurdles, the only provision for web development that’s
part of the core Perl distro is CGI.pm, with no clear winner
among the web app frameworks and only marginally among the
templating systems. On top of all that, Perl on Win32 has been
a second-class citizen all along; it never enjoyed good support
for the secret weapon, CPAN.

In contrast, PHP is already on every web host on the planet and
installing it on a Windows desktop for casual development is easy
for dabblers. Once they get there, all they need to do is put
a few statements in a HTML file, because PHP is nothing but an
overgrown templating system, and watch it go. Sure, eventually
the result will be a mess, but for an outsider, it’s *MUCH*
easier to get *started* with PHP.

Elaine’s Law at work.

Also, because of the pervasive deployment of PHP, it’s a strong
contender for people who want to write web apps that are supposed
to be redistributed.

I think the success of mod_perl actually set Perl as a whole back
in the web arena. Ironically, now that other languages are trying
to play in there, and things like FastCGI and embeddable HTTP
servers are being tried, that might actually give Perl a lever to
gain back some of the foothold it lost to PHP long ago. I also
hope that Strawberry finally brings Perl on Win32 to full
citizenship.

> Now speaking as !(a dumb person) (ok ok, arguments about this
> off-list please ;), I prefer Perl's syntax because I can say
> what I mean and have the *compiler* figure out how to do
> things. [1]  Plus, there are powerful features for me to draw
> upon and exploit -- MI, functional elements (map / grep / sort
> {BLOCK} ...), closures, anonymous subroutines, references, data
> structures that make sense to someone with more than 15 minutes
> programming experience, etc.

Yes, PHP-the-language blows. Yawn.

> Perl will never win the language war because most people don't
> understand why it's good, and never will. (Ruby is "popular"
> because of 37signals' massive cash outlay, and because it's
> different enough to excite people by "being different".
> Throwing away 30 years of what I know about programming is
> a great idea!  It's fuuunnn!)

You seem to be throwing Ruby into the same bag as PHP. That’s
a demonstration of ignorance, at best.

Ruby is popular because it takes most of Perl 5, throws out all
the crappy crud, much of which Larry is also throwing out in
Perl 6 (type globs? wtf?), adds a sane OO system, which Larry is
also doing in Perl 6, and puts the whole thing into a simple
regular syntax that has a few *very* nice touches. The inline
closure syntax in Ruby is just beautiful; trying to do the same
thing in Perl makes me cringe.

As Piers Cawley put it, the buzz about Ruby and Rails is the
sound of a bunch of Java programmers finally discovering how
cool Perl is.

Sure, Ruby may suck in ways that Perl doesn’t, but the reverse is
also true.

> [1] PHP example -- look at preg_split, str_split, strtok, and
> explode. What a freaking nightmare.  That is, unless your brain
> doesn't work, in which case it's "cool to have fun toys to
> choose from".  The manual says which to use in which case, and
> by reading that and picking "the right one", the programmer
> gets to think "I'm smart, I'm OPTIMIZING!"  In reality, the
> programmer is doing the work of an if statement, but hey...
> "ZOMG I'M OPTIMIZING!"
> 
> I mention this because perl has one function, join, that does
> all of these (except strtok, which you can do with a plain
> regex).  In PHP, you have to use a different function to
> "optimize" for the plain-string case.  In Per

Re: [Catalyst] Re: Last Chance / Last Day: Web developmentplatformcontestand Perl / Catalyst

[Renan Valente Rangel]

I am a begginer in Catalyst and I have been reading and learning about Perl
this year (and maybe I am almost intermediate). When I say that I use Perl,
forgivinf the people that don't know what is that, say: "Perl, that old
language?". As some of you said before, this is not true por the people
inside the Perl community. I don't start in Perl because I visited a good
website, or a good documentation. I started using it to make scripts to
control functions in some servers. Then, I discovered the power of the
language and I am trying to learn as much as I can.

But the people outside the perl community need something to atract them.
Look at rails website. On the home, you can see some websites where it is
used. Catalyst need a section like "Get excited", because people don't want
to learn a language to discover if it's good or not. They will try to get
some informationg about it first. Most of people don't like or even don't
know Perl, so they don't have something real. Some nice videos explaining
nice features and how it works, will promote Catalyst and Perl to people
outside the community.

That's the opinion of a novice.

--
Renan
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Re: [Catalyst] How to set config of Controller in YAML file?

[Hideo Kimura]

On Thu, 30 Nov 2006 21:35:41 +
Matt S Trout <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hideo Kimura wrote:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > Does anybody knows how to set config of each Controllers in YAML file?
> > Before I can do it following way with ConfigLoader, but it doesn't work now.
> > 
> > in yml file
> > Controller::Foo:
> >   foo: bar
> > 
> > in controller
> > sub default : Private {
> > my ($self, $c) = @_;
> > 
> > my $config = $self->config;
> > ...
> > }
> 
> That's wrong, the class config is the prototype.
> 
> __PACKAGE__->mk_accessors(qw/foo/);
> 
> sub default : Private {
>my ($self, $c) = @_;
>warn $self->foo; # bar
> }

It works fine.
Thanks for your reply.

--
hide



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Re: [Catalyst] Last Chance / Last Day: Web developmentplatformcontestand Perl / Catalyst

[Jonathan Rockway]

Very few people know how to write compilers, but that doesn't stop GCC
(and python/perl/ruby/forth/bf/haskell/foo/bar/baz) from existing.  It
only takes 2 or 3 people to work on a "big" project, so as long as there
are 3 people interested in Perl it will be fine.  If you want a new
feature in perl, send in a patch.  (Or in the case of perl6, "commits
welcome".)

> Thats a bit short sighted, without new developers learning Perl you'll
> have a lack sooner or later.

For example, look at PHP's community.  Huge! ... but absolutely no
competent core / module developers.  Numbers != quality.

Regards,
Jonathan Rockway

-- 
--- !!perl/hash:.sig
name: Jonathan Rockway
blog: http://blog.jrock.us/



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Re: [Catalyst] Re: Last Chance / Last Day: Web developmentplatformcontestand Perl / Catalyst

[Jonathan Rockway]

Renan Valente Rangel wrote:
> On the home, you can see some websites where it
> is used. Catalyst need a section like "Get excited", because people
> don't want to learn a language to discover if it's good or not.

We do have this sort of list on the wiki.

However, I don't see the benefit.  You can write bad sites in good
programming languages or good sites in bad programming languages.  Most
of the sites I use regularly (delicious, slashdot, mixi, etc.) are
perl-based, but that's just what the developers happened to use.  If
you're determined to see your idea to fruition, you can write your site
in assembler.  (Google search is C++.)

-- 
package JAPH;use Catalyst qw/-Debug/;($;=JAPH)->config(name => do {
$,.=reverse qw[Jonathan tsu rehton lre rekca Rockway][$_].[split //,
";$;"]->[$_].q; ;for 1..4;$,=~s;^.;;;$,});$;->setup;

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Re: [Catalyst] Last Chance / Last Day: Web development platform contestand Perl / Catalyst

[Brandon Black]

On 11/30/06, Sebastian Riedel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

And p5 development is not as active as you might think,
just take a look at the comments under
http://use.perl.org/~sri/journal/31519.

The quote "Perl5 is not dead, it's just very, very stable" sums it up
quite well.



216 distinct threads in the past 3 weeks on the p5p mailing list
(according to gmail) say otherwise.  P5 development is definitely
"active".  The upload activity on CPAN is on a constant upwards trend.
The mere existence of groundbreaking modules like Moose are hard
evidence as well.

-- Brandon

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Re: [Catalyst] Last Chance / Last Day: Web developmentplatformcontestand Perl / Catalyst

[Nilson Santos Figueiredo Junior]

On 11/30/06, Jonathan Rockway <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Thats a bit short sighted, without new developers learning Perl you'll
> have a lack sooner or later.

For example, look at PHP's community.  Huge! ... but absolutely no
competent core / module developers.  Numbers != quality.


One thing you should use as a thermometer for technology is wether
something is being used or not in a significant scale outside the US
and main countries of Europe.

This may seem irrelevant, but software development companies such as
the ones that exist here in Brazil usually take a much more
conservative approach towards technology choice. Hence the lack of
Perl shops around here. What really bothers me, however, is Python
shops are thriving and recently Ruby (with Rails) has been the first
dynamic language to overcome the "enterprise" barrier around here.

It nearly impossible to hire Perl developers around here, that's the
main problem with using Perl as your platform of choice. I work at a
Perl-only shop and really, we'd currently hire *anyone* that isn't a
complete moron and knows Perl.

The good developers are being thought Java and there's good demand for
Java developers. The best places to work around here (i.e. where
you'll do actually interesting things) are those companies somehow
tied to good universities (the founders are teachers, and so on). All
of them either use Java or Python or Ruby. And the bad places to work
at are usually Java or .NET shops.

This situation creates a vicious cycle where people won't learn Perl
because the demand for Perl developers is small and this will ends up
hurting the still existing Perl shops.

Recently, the SPB (Sociedade Perl do Brasil - Brazilian Perl Society)
has been doing a great job promoting Perl at numerous open source
events. But, although we've seen actual results from this work (well,
at least the mailing lists activity has increased), it doesn't seem to
be enough and serious Perl usage around here is still insignificant.

I love Perl and I consider it to be the best language for almost every
sort of development. However, if I were in a management position and
needed to decide the platform my 10-developers project would be
developing on, given the context I'm in, I don't know if I'd choose
Perl since, frankly, I'd have to (personally) train at least 7 or 8 of
those 10 developers.

And on top of all that, the so-called "software factories" where mass
development is done are all Java around here and that's where the
money is, since we've got no buyers for killer Web 2.0 apps. This sums
up to a situation where even the good developers get attracted to
these places because, although it sucks to work as a code monkey,
working as the lead of them usually isn't a bad job in many of those
companies.

Of course, I don't have a freaking clue on how to proceed in order to
change this situation (if that's even possible). We've got some Perl
marketing plans at our shop that might end up bringing some attention
to Perl around here when (and if) they go into play but as we grow,
we're something diving into unknown land due to our limited resource
pool.

PS: Re-reading this email made me think it's a bit big and
non-coherent, but bear with me. ;-)

-Nilson Santos F. Jr.

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Re: [Catalyst] Last Chance / Last Day: Web developmentplatformcontestand Perl / Catalyst

[Paul Makepeace]

On 12/1/06, Nilson Santos Figueiredo Junior <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

On 11/30/06, Jonathan Rockway <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Thats a bit short sighted, without new developers learning Perl you'll
> > have a lack sooner or later.
>
> For example, look at PHP's community.  Huge! ... but absolutely no
> competent core / module developers.  Numbers != quality.

One thing you should use as a thermometer for technology is wether
something is being used or not in a significant scale outside the US
and main countries of Europe.

This may seem irrelevant, but software development companies such as
the ones that exist here in Brazil usually take a much more
conservative approach towards technology choice. Hence the lack of
Perl shops around here. What really bothers me, however, is Python
shops are thriving and recently Ruby (with Rails) has been the first
dynamic language to overcome the "enterprise" barrier around here.


It doesn't surprise me python is thriving. It's a great language: easy
to pick up, regular, "simple", works.

I love perl and it's my main programming language. At the same time I
realise I have put a huge amount of time into learning it. There's
another guy on one of my team's who's a PHP programmer - we have a
site that's half PHP and half catalyst. He keeps mentioning learning
catalyst and I thought "what if I had to go from PHP to
Perl+Catalyst?" and, knowing what I know, it was a scary thought. The
learning curve is immense and daunting.

I read "Diving into Python" more or less over a weekend and am merrily
writing python like it's no big deal. Sure, I'm a programmer and am
already introduced to all of the concepts python knows about. But
still, there I am doing most of what I can do in perl in another
language within a far far shorter time.

As for PHP its barrier to entry is so low perl will never ever compete
in that space until it can match both the simplicity of the language
and ease of installation and deployment. Syntax and other niceties
are, frankly, irrelevant. (And similarly any bleating about python's
whitespace rules has automatically removed themselves from useful
contribution to the discussion, unless they make it particularly witty
:-)


This situation creates a vicious cycle where people won't learn Perl
because the demand for Perl developers is small and this will ends up
hurting the still existing Perl shops.


Yes, ignore growth at your peril.

Perl 5 is a lost cause, IMO. It's just too hard, too crufty, too
weighed down by years of negative perception. Perl 6 is our only hope.
(And I sincerely hope they call it something different from Perl 6)

Paul

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