Re: [Catalyst] Re: Last Chance / LastDay:Webdevelopmentplatformcontestand Perl / Catalyst
From: vb > don't know anything? > I think the Catalyst *and* perl is not for beginners (see PHP for those) - or redefine: > beginner:: a person with good background, and with good background in programming > (including a independent experience in creation of a onorable application) Well, I am programming just in perl. I have attended a faculty in business and not IT. I have also made programs in Pascal, Visual Basic and MS Access, but very simple applications only. I have tried to learn PHP, but I have found that I like perl much more, so I abandoned PHP because I cannot do everything I want with it. I am not a beginner in perl world, but I am a beginner in Unix world and I will probably be a beginner for a long time, because Unix is not very accessible for screen reader users. Unfortunately for me, perl is always associated with Unix, and not with Windows, and this is why I find harder some things. I have made web sites that use CGI, CGI::App, TT, HTML::Template, and other templating systems, mod_perl, programs with Windows GUIS, a daemon under Unix, I have made my own templating system, very many other simple projects, but I have never used Catalyst nor DBIx::Class, YAML configuration module or SVN. If Catalyst requires knowing how to use other modules it is all right, but in that case the Catalyst manual should specify that very clearly. It should say something like: "If you want to use Catalyst, you should first know DBIx::Class, because otherwise you won't be able to use it". If Catalyst can work without other external modules, than the first example should show such an application. Teddy ___ List: Catalyst@lists.rawmode.org Listinfo: http://lists.rawmode.org/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.rawmode.org/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] Re: Last Chance / LastDay:Webdevelopmentplatformcontestand Perl / Catalyst
From: Kieren Diment > Any chance you could comment on: http://www.catalystframework.org/calendar/2006/1 and suggest further improvements? Well, I can't suggest for improvements, because that tutorial is not for a beginner and that's where I am. :-) It is a fine tutorial for someone who knows how to use Catalyst, but also wants to know the right way for developing a more advanced application, that uses versioning. As a suggestion, I'd say that it would be nice to made it platform independent. I develop the applications under Windows, and only if they work fine I use to put them run in production (under Linux). There are very few situations in which a certain module cannot be tested under Windows and in that case I test it under Linux directly. I have seen that your example modifies the root controller, so this convince me that this is not a tutorial for beginners. The beginners should start learning to use Catalyst, without SVN, with its default ways of doing things, without other external modules that can be avoided. If a beginner sees that in its first example of using Catalyst, a certain module is used, he might think that module is absolutely necessary, and that Catalyst cannot work without it. I think your example is very good, but not for the beginners. Teddy ___ List: Catalyst@lists.rawmode.org Listinfo: http://lists.rawmode.org/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.rawmode.org/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] Re: Last Chance / LastDay:Webdevelopmentplatformcontestand Perl / Catalyst
On Saturday 02 December 2006 13:34, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> If Catalyst requires knowing how to use other modules it is all right,
> but in that case the Catalyst manual should specify that very clearly. It
> should say something like:
> "If you want to use Catalyst, you should first know DBIx::Class, because
> otherwise you won't be able to use it".
>
> If Catalyst can work without other external modules, than the first
> example should show such an application.
Most people these days want to write a database driven application, so that's
the focus of tutorials. Catalyst doesn't require that you use DBIx::Class
(and admittedly I don't use it very much myself; see Angerwhale), but it's a
very common use for Catalyst and is worth (IMHO) covering in detail early on.
Helping the majority of people get comfortable with Catalyst in respect to
their problem domain is the priority of the tutorial. Learning how to use
Catalyst to not solve their problem doesn't really help them :)
Anyway, kd's first advent calendar entry might be more appealing to you. You
can't please everyone with the stock tutorial, and that's why the doc team
tries to vary what they write about. A very basic "get started with Catalyst
+ TT" would be welcome, if you feel like writing one. I've included a whole
chapter about this setup in my book, but I won't be /too/ upset if you write
and post a Free one :)
Regards,
Jonathan Rockway
--
package JAPH;use Catalyst qw/-Debug/;($;=JAPH)->config(name => do {
$,.=reverse qw[Jonathan tsu rehton lre rekca Rockway][$_].[split //,
";$;"]->[$_].q; ;for 1..4;$,=~s;^.;;;$,});$;->setup;
pgpG3QEaEqogz.pgp
Description: PGP signature
___
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Re: [Catalyst] Re: Last Chance / LastDay:Webdevelopmentplatformcontestand Perl / Catalyst
On 03/12/06, Octavian Rasnita <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: *From:* Kieren Diment <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Any chance you could comment on: http://www.catalystframework.org/calendar/2006/1 and suggest further improvements? Well, I can't suggest for improvements, because that tutorial is not for a beginner and that's where I am. :-) It is a fine tutorial for someone who knows how to use Catalyst, but also wants to know the right way for developing a more advanced application, that uses versioning. As a suggestion, I'd say that it would be nice to made it platform independent. I develop the applications under Windows, and only if they work fine I use to put them run in production (under Linux). There are very few situations in which a certain module cannot be tested under Windows and in that case I test it under Linux directly. I have seen that your example modifies the root controller, so this convince me that this is not a tutorial for beginners. The beginners should start learning to use Catalyst, without SVN, with its default ways of doing things, without other external modules that can be avoided. If a beginner sees that in its first example of using Catalyst, a certain module is used, he might think that module is absolutely necessary, and that Catalyst cannot work without it. I wrote the svn section to remind myself of the various stuff that you have to do to when setting up a new project - mainly because I do lots of small coding projects and can never remember what to do. As far as the root controller goes, that's almost always going to be what you modify first. This could be more clearly expressed in this article, and I will make a note of that. As far as introducing a dependency in the model goes, this will almost always happen, as most common problems are solved and on CPAN. I hate reinventing the wheel as they always come out square for me. Again this problem is noted and I will deal with it. Perhaps CPAN searching techniques could be in Catalyst's pedagogical docs. I guess my audience for this article was a catalyst neophyte who has the support of someone nearby (i.e. a colleague) to get them over the major humps in the learning curve, not an independent self-learner. ___ List: Catalyst@lists.rawmode.org Listinfo: http://lists.rawmode.org/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.rawmode.org/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] Re: Last Chance /LastDay:Webdevelopmentplatformcontestand Perl / Catalyst
From: Kieren Diment > I wrote the svn section to remind myself of the various stuff that you have to do to when setting up a new project - mainly because I do lots of small coding projects and can never remember what to do. > As far as the root controller goes, that's almost always going to be what you modify first. This could be more clearly expressed in this article, and I will make a note of that. > As far as introducing a dependency in the model goes, this will almost always happen, as most common problems are solved and on CPAN. I hate reinventing the wheel as they always come out square for me. Again this problem is noted and I will deal with it. Perhaps CPAN searching techniques could be in Catalyst's pedagogical docs. > I guess my audience for this article was a catalyst neophyte who has the support of someone nearby (i.e. a colleague) to get them over the major humps in the learning curve, not an independent self-learner. I remember that I've read many good books that use to give a basic example, but before showing that example they use to say that "This is not the right way to do it, and you will learn later why", or told that there are much better ways, but they still shown that basic example. For example, when I have started learning Perl for creating CGI applications, I didn't start directly by using "use CGI" but by checking if the request was a GET or POST method, and if it was a GET to parse manually the query string, and if it was a POST method to parse the STDIN for getting the variables. Of course I have learned immediately that it is much more simple to use the CGI module, but that way of learning helped me much to understand better how the CGI module works, and how it gets those variables. Now I can see many PHP users that don't understand what's really a GET method or a POST method, and they think that a POST method is much secure than a GET one and so on, because the way of getting the variables from the users is built in PHP, so they don't need to care. Using Catalyst with an ORM means using a higher level of programming, and this makes the users understand harder the low level things, in order to be able to use other methods, for example accessing a database from Catalyst directly. Teddy ___ List: Catalyst@lists.rawmode.org Listinfo: http://lists.rawmode.org/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.rawmode.org/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] Re: Last Chance / LastDay:Webdevelopmentplatformcontestand Perl / Catalyst
On 12/2/06, Octavian Rasnita <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I have seen that your example modifies the root controller, so this convince me that this is not a tutorial for beginners. The beginners should start learning to use Catalyst, without SVN, with its default ways of doing things, without other external modules that can be avoided. The SVN and "mkdir" crud could really have been left out, IMO. However, modifying your root controller is something pretty basic, your conclusion is completely wrong. Your root controller is the default responsible for the "/" namespace and that's usually where you'll put your login stuff and the like. Honestly, your tackling this problem from a very ackward POV. When I had no clue about Catalyst I sure had difficulties and so on but they were primarily TT and DBIC issues. Catalyst itself always seemed pretty intuitive to me. There's something in your questioning that sets you appart from the regular Catalyst newbie group. I, for one, really like the Catalyst tutorial where it taught me Catalyst, some basic DBIC and TT in one go. If it wasn't laid out that way at the time I'd probably have thought that Catalyst wasn't "consolidated" enough or something to that effect. -Nilson Santos F. Jr. ___ List: Catalyst@lists.rawmode.org Listinfo: http://lists.rawmode.org/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.rawmode.org/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] Re: Last Chance /LastDay:Webdevelopmentplatformcontestand Perl / Catalyst
Honestly, your tackling this problem from a very ackward POV. When I had no clue about Catalyst I sure had difficulties and so on but they were primarily TT and DBIC issues. Catalyst itself always seemed pretty intuitive to me. There's something in your questioning that sets you appart from the regular Catalyst newbie group. I, for one, really like the Catalyst tutorial where it taught me Catalyst, some basic DBIC and TT in one go. If it wasn't laid out that way at the time I'd probably have thought that Catalyst wasn't "consolidated" enough or something to that effect. Each one has its own way of learning. I prefer to see a separate text that shows everything that an application can do. That text will convince me that I will be able to do with that application more than with others, but we are talking about tutorials here, about texts used for learning Catalyst. Of course I want to learn more than just using Catalyst, but for the moment I want to learn using just Catalyst, and only after that I might (or not) want to learn DBIx or other configuration modules. Teddy ___ List: Catalyst@lists.rawmode.org Listinfo: http://lists.rawmode.org/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.rawmode.org/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] Re: Last Chance / LastDay:Webdevelopmentplatformcontestand Perl / Catalyst
> This immediately brought to mind what I think is wrong (or I guess some > people would say is right) with CPAN in regards to our discussion here. > We want to make the Perl community bigger and better and that means we > need to bring programmers to Perl, right? Well CPAN is one of the great > things about the language and community but for the novice or new to > Perl user it really lacks in some important areas. New programmers or > programmers that have moved from another language first find it hard to > search for exactly what they want and then when they do find it there > are a myriad of modules that do more or less the same thing. There is > no real explanation to new Perl users of these de facto standards that > they should use in most cases and I think this drives newbies away from > Perl. Bingo! That's it. And I said that there is no de facto standard, because there isn't one generally accepted. The Catalyst users have an opinion, the CGI::App might have another one, the Mason users who knows... maybe another one, and so on. So the newbie might finally start learning Python or Ruby. Teddy ___ List: Catalyst@lists.rawmode.org Listinfo: http://lists.rawmode.org/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.rawmode.org/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] Re: Last Chance / LastDay:Webdevelopmentplatformcontestand Perl / Catalyst
On 12/4/06, Octavian Rasnita <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: And I said that there is no de facto standard, because there isn't one generally accepted. There's a defacto standard for writing Catalyst applications. The Catalyst users have an opinion, the CGI::App might have another one, the Mason users who knows... maybe another one, and so on. So the newbie might finally start learning Python or Ruby. And those other languages probably also have choices between templating systems or ORMs. The thing that actually makes Rails so successful is the fact that it has everything already sorted out. You can't really learn Rails without using ActiveRecord for instance. If the newbie gives up on Catalyst and ends up learning another language it won't be because of having to learn TT and DBIx::Class along with Catalyst. It would probably because he's a Windows user and things don't work as smoothly as the alternatives. Most people don't really want nor need the flexibility provided by Catalyst, they'd rather have a pre-packaged framework that just works. This whole conversation boils down to what are the aims of Catalyst as an open source project. In order to gain popularity there should be less focus on flexibility and more focus on "achievability". However, in most serious developments this won't help much, it'd just be a lot of work and the only benefits might be a dozen new users - there would be no real benefits for the existing users and, most importantly, for the core devs. -Nilson Santos F. Jr. ___ List: Catalyst@lists.rawmode.org Listinfo: http://lists.rawmode.org/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.rawmode.org/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] Re: Last Chance / LastDay:Webdevelopmentplatformcontestand Perl / Catalyst
"In order to gain popularity there should be less focus on flexibility and more focus on "achievability". However, in most serious developments this won't help much, it'd just be a lot of work and the only benefits might be a dozen new users - there would be no real benefits for the existing users and, most importantly, for the core devs." Well said. -- Daniel McBrearty email : danielmcbrearty at gmail.com www.engoi.com : the multi - language vocab trainer BTW : 0873928131 ___ List: Catalyst@lists.rawmode.org Listinfo: http://lists.rawmode.org/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.rawmode.org/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] Re: Last Chance /LastDay:Webdevelopmentplatformcontestand Perl / Catalyst
This whole conversation boils down to what are the aims of Catalyst as an open source project. In order to gain popularity there should be less focus on flexibility and more focus on "achievability". However, in most serious developments this won't help much, it'd just be a lot of work and the only benefits might be a dozen new users - there would be no real benefits for the existing users and, most importantly, for the core devs. Yes of course, but if thinking this way, PHP could be considered not very successfully, because it is not an extraordinary language, however, it is used in much more web sites than perl, and some big sites like Yahoo also use it. So I think a successful framework should be good and flexible, but also accessible, easy to learn, and *portable to Windows*, because most of the computer users are using Windows, Apache is the most used web server, but the percent of the sites that use Apache decreases and the percent of IIS sites increases. The success of a framework is counted in the number of web sites that use it, and the importance of those web sites. An extraordinary technology that's used by nobody or by a smaller number of users, do really have some issues. More users means a bigger interest in it, a better mouth to mouth advertising, more jobs that require knowing that technology... Yesterday I have installed Catalyst and Task::Catalyst under Linux, using the CPAN shell. The process gave many errors, but they disappeared beeing replaced by the new lines printed, so I don't know how to find them. I have tried "install Catalyst" again, thinking that I could see those errors again, but I received the message that Catalyst is up to date, so I don't know which were those errors, and which modules were not installed. I have tried this under Fedora, not under Windows, and it should have worked correctly. Teddy ___ List: Catalyst@lists.rawmode.org Listinfo: http://lists.rawmode.org/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.rawmode.org/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
RE: [Catalyst] Re: Last Chance /LastDay:Webdevelopmentplatformcontestand Perl / Catalyst
> And those other languages probably also have choices > between templating systems or ORMs. The thing that > actually makes Rails so successful is the fact that > it has everything already sorted out. You can't really > learn Rails without using ActiveRecord for instance. > > If the newbie gives up on Catalyst and ends up learning > another language it won't be because of having to learn > TT and DBIx::Class along with Catalyst. It would probably > because he's a Windows user and things don't work as > smoothly as the alternatives. Most people don't really > want nor need the flexibility provided by Catalyst, > they'd rather have a pre-packaged framework that just > works. > > This whole conversation boils down to what are the aims > of Catalyst as an open source project. In order to gain > popularity there should be less focus on flexibility and > more focus on "achievability". However, in most serious > developments this won't help much, it'd just be a lot of > work and the only benefits might be a dozen new users - > there would be no real benefits for the existing users and, > most importantly, for the core devs. I think it is possible to achieve both flexibilty and achieveability in the same framework. Catalyst can be "a pre-packaged framework that just works" with a low cost of entry while still providing flexbility to advanced users needing more power. ___ List: Catalyst@lists.rawmode.org Listinfo: http://lists.rawmode.org/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.rawmode.org/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] Re: Last Chance / LastDay:Webdevelopmentplatformcontestand Perl / Catalyst
"Nilson Santos Figueiredo Junior" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 12/04/2006 07:52:40 AM: > On 12/4/06, Octavian Rasnita <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > And I said that there is no de facto standard, because there isn't one > > generally accepted. > > There's a defacto standard for writing Catalyst applications. > > > The Catalyst users have an opinion, the CGI::App might have another one, the > > Mason users who knows... maybe another one, and so on. > > > > So the newbie might finally start learning Python or Ruby. > > And those other languages probably also have choices between > templating systems or ORMs. The thing that actually makes Rails so > successful is the fact that it has everything already sorted out. You > can't really learn Rails without using ActiveRecord for instance. > Can we kill this thread? It should be apparent to everyone at this point that perl has some image issues (just by the length ad context of this thread). Catalyst does not have a de facto standard for ORM or templating system, TT and DBIC are probably more used than other solutions, but they are not defacto and Catalyst supports many other options. That said, because of the higher use of TT and the higher usage and tight coupling on DBIC (MST) to the Cat core team, you may find a higher level of Catalyst community support for these. Catalyst itself is very easy to learn -- its basically just a dispatcher -- simple. The true power of Catalyst comes into play when you start building it up with all of the other CPAN modules (like and ORM such as DBIC, Rose, or CDBI and a templating system such as TT, Mason, whatever). If you are just starting to learn about Perl in general -- this _will_ be a daunting task, perl is not dumbed down and is a very powerful language. Add on that a lot of the power of great Catalyst Apps come from ORM and Templates cpan and all of the other nuances oo perl and you have a steep learning curve. I do not think we can hold ourselves to teach people perl, perl ORMs, template systems, or even simple binary math -- That goes beyond what we are trying to do. We should teach people how to use Catalyst, introduce them to some of the other ancillary modules that fit into catalyst's development platform well and hope they are intrigued enough to learn more on their own. We can't solve perl's image problems, we can only provide a damn good framework for making web apps (which works towards enhancing the image). ___ List: Catalyst@lists.rawmode.org Listinfo: http://lists.rawmode.org/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.rawmode.org/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] Re: Last Chance /LastDay:Webdevelopmentplatformcontestand Perl / Catalyst
On 12/4/06, Octavian Rasnita <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Yes of course, but if thinking this way, PHP could be considered not very successfully, because it is not an extraordinary language, however, it is used in much more web sites than perl, and some big sites like Yahoo also use it. PHP is very popular and thus successful, from a marketing POV. However, technically, it's a recipe for spaghetti code. So I think a successful framework should be good and flexible, but also accessible, easy to learn, and *portable to Windows*, because most of the computer users are using Windows, Apache is the most used web server, but the percent of the sites that use Apache decreases and the percent of IIS sites increases. I agree with you up to the point where you cite IIS as a viable alternative to Apache. It's not, period. The success of a framework is counted in the number of web sites that use it, and the importance of those web sites. An extraordinary technology that's used by nobody or by a smaller number of users, do really have some issues. More users means a bigger interest in it, a better mouth to mouth advertising, more jobs that require knowing that technology... As I've previously said, it really boils down to how you're measuring your success. If success is being popular, PHP is the most successful web language ever. But I think that language or framework developers should strive for quality, not popularity. Quality != quantity. I have tried "install Catalyst" again, thinking that I could see those errors again, but I received the message that Catalyst is up to date, so I don't know which were those errors, and which modules were not installed. Well, if it is installed then, in theory, no real errors occurred. Isn't it working? -Nilson Santos F. Jr. ___ List: Catalyst@lists.rawmode.org Listinfo: http://lists.rawmode.org/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.rawmode.org/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] Re: Last Chance /LastDay:Webdevelopmentplatformcontestand Perl / Catalyst
On 12/4/06, Hermida, Leandro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I think it is possible to achieve both flexibilty and achieveability in the same framework. Catalyst can be "a pre-packaged framework that just works" with a low cost of entry while still providing flexbility to advanced users needing more power. Of course it is. You could make this "packaging" as a documentation detail, i.e., document that the default templating system is TT and the default ORM is DBIC and so on. Maybe provide some more integration layers that'd make them all work seamlessly. There are two problems, however: - What *exactly* should be done? - Who's available to do it? People who are experienced enough to know how to do this, usually, won't see any value in doing it, since once you're done with your rookie phase, things become much simpler - you get used to things the way they are. -Nilson Santos F. Jr. ___ List: Catalyst@lists.rawmode.org Listinfo: http://lists.rawmode.org/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.rawmode.org/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] Re: Last Chance /LastDay:Webdevelopmentplatformcontestand Perl / Catalyst
Nilson Santos Figueiredo Junior wrote: > On 12/4/06, Octavian Rasnita <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> Yes of course, but if thinking this way, PHP could be considered not very >> successfully, because it is not an extraordinary language, however, it is >> used in much more web sites than perl, and some big sites like Yahoo also >> use it. > > PHP is very popular and thus successful, from a marketing POV. > However, technically, it's a recipe for spaghetti code. > >> So I think a successful framework should be good and flexible, but also >> accessible, easy to learn, and *portable to Windows*, because most of the >> computer users are using Windows, Apache is the most used web server, but >> the percent of the sites that use Apache decreases and the percent of IIS >> sites increases. > > I agree with you up to the point where you cite IIS as a viable > alternative to Apache. > It's not, period. Actually, that's close to being not true now that Vista is out. IIS7 is a huge rewrite, stealing its modularized-ness from Apache. The new IIS7 stuff can run FastCGI, and as such, it's PHP, and potentially else FastCGI-based is screaming fast compared to before. http://blogs.iis.net/bills/archive/2006/10/31/IIS-Team-Announces-FastCGI-For-IIS-5.1_2C00_-IIS-6.0-and-IIS7.aspx But I digress... Yes, kill the thread. :-) -=Chris signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ List: Catalyst@lists.rawmode.org Listinfo: http://lists.rawmode.org/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.rawmode.org/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
RE: [Catalyst] Re: Last Chance/LastDay:Webdevelopmentplatformcontestand Perl / Catalyst
> Nilson Santos Figueiredo Junior [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > On 12/4/06, Hermida, Leandro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> I think it is possible to achieve both flexibilty and achieveability >> in the same framework. Catalyst can be "a pre-packaged framework that >> just works" with a low cost of entry while still providing flexbility >> to advanced users needing more power. > > Of course it is. You could make this "packaging" as a documentation > detail, i.e., document that the default templating system is TT and > the default ORM is DBIC and so on. Maybe provide some more integration > layers that'd make them all work seamlessly. > > There are two problems, however: > - What *exactly* should be done? > - Who's available to do it? > > People who are experienced enough to know how to do this, usually, won't see any value in doing it, since once you're done with your rookie > phase, things become much simpler - you get used to things the way they are. I completely agree with you but remember the point of this thread: that programmers and newbies are not chosing Perl. First impressions matter a lot. The "experienced enough" people know the ropes and will probably not drop Perl if they hit a snag but to bring new programmers into the community things have to be made much easier and more seamless. Other language communities have managed to do it so why can't the Perl community? ___ List: Catalyst@lists.rawmode.org Listinfo: http://lists.rawmode.org/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.rawmode.org/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] Re: Last Chance /LastDay:Webdevelopmentplatformcontestand Perl / Catalyst
Octavian Rasnita wrote: > Yesterday I have installed Catalyst and Task::Catalyst under Linux, using > the CPAN shell. > The process gave many errors, but they disappeared beeing replaced by the > new lines printed, so I don't know how to find them. > I have tried "install Catalyst" again, thinking that I could see those > errors again, but I received the message that Catalyst is up to date, so I > don't know which were those errors, and which modules were not installed. Go into the cpan build directory for the distribution (typically under ~root/.cpan/build) and type 'make test'. Then you can see errors and warnings. You can save the output in the normal way. You can also run the individual tests from there (perl t/some-test.t) Cheers, Dave ___ List: Catalyst@lists.rawmode.org Listinfo: http://lists.rawmode.org/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.rawmode.org/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] Re: Last Chance /LastDay:Webdevelopmentplatformcontestand Perl / Catalyst
to run an individual test : perl -Ilib t/some_test_module.t On 12/5/06, Dave Howorth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Octavian Rasnita wrote: > Yesterday I have installed Catalyst and Task::Catalyst under Linux, using > the CPAN shell. > The process gave many errors, but they disappeared beeing replaced by the > new lines printed, so I don't know how to find them. > I have tried "install Catalyst" again, thinking that I could see those > errors again, but I received the message that Catalyst is up to date, so I > don't know which were those errors, and which modules were not installed. Go into the cpan build directory for the distribution (typically under ~root/.cpan/build) and type 'make test'. Then you can see errors and warnings. You can save the output in the normal way. You can also run the individual tests from there (perl t/some-test.t) Cheers, Dave ___ List: Catalyst@lists.rawmode.org Listinfo: http://lists.rawmode.org/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.rawmode.org/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/ -- Daniel McBrearty email : danielmcbrearty at gmail.com www.engoi.com : the multi - language vocab trainer BTW : 0873928131 ___ List: Catalyst@lists.rawmode.org Listinfo: http://lists.rawmode.org/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.rawmode.org/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
