Re: [ccp4bb] Low Phaser RFZ

2015-05-19 Thread Carlos CONTRERAS-MARTEL

Hi Eric

For me it is perfectly normal
Please check Phaser documentation :

http://www.phaser.cimr.cam.ac.uk/index.php/Molecular_Replacement#Has_Phaser_Solved_It.3F

All the best

Carlos

On 05/19/2015 02:36 AM, Eric Karg wrote:

Hi all,

Running Phaser using the apo protein as search model on a ~2.5 A dataset of a 
protein-DNA complex, I get a single solution but with low RFZ. The map looks 
reasonable but I was wondering why the RFZ is so low. Would this solution be 
acceptable?

SOLU SET  RFZ=3.2 TFZ=8.4 PAK=0 LLG=66 TFZ==10.6 RFZ=2.9 TFZ=13.7 PAK=0 
LLG=203
 TFZ==14.0 LLG=1440 TFZ==34.2
SOLU SPAC P 62 2 2
SOLU 6DIM ENSE ensemble1 EULER 181.8 55.7 74.8 FRAC 0.27 0.26 -0.40 BFAC 
-7.38
SOLU 6DIM ENSE ensemble1 EULER 4.5 120.2 7.9 FRAC -0.31 0.20 -0.09 BFAC 
12.61
Ensemble ensemble1 RMS variance(s): 0.87

Thank you for your help!




--
 Carlos CONTRERAS MARTEL, Ph.D.
 (CR1 CNRS)

 carlos.contreras-mar...@ibs.fr

 Bacterial Pathogenesis Group
Institut de Biologie Structurale
UMR5075 CEA-CNRS-Université Joseph Fourier Grenoble 1

  IBS
  71, avenue des Martyrs
  CS 10090
  38044 Grenoble CEDEX 9
  FRANCE


 tel : (+33) (0)4 57 42 86 41

http://www.ibs.fr/groupes/groupe-pathogenie-bacterienne/?lang=fr
http://www.ibs.fr/groups/bacterial-pathogenesis-group/?lang=en


Re: [ccp4bb] Low Phaser RFZ

2015-05-19 Thread Andreas Forster
Hi Eric,

What does your map look like?  Do you see features that don't come from the
search model?  That's the key.  That said, with a TFZ of above 10, I'd be
rather positive about my prospects.


Andreas



On Tue, May 19, 2015 at 2:36 AM, Eric Karg 
052044071b36-dmarc-requ...@jiscmail.ac.uk wrote:

 Hi all,

 Running Phaser using the apo protein as search model on a ~2.5 A dataset
 of a protein-DNA complex, I get a single solution but with low RFZ. The map
 looks reasonable but I was wondering why the RFZ is so low. Would this
 solution be acceptable?

SOLU SET  RFZ=3.2 TFZ=8.4 PAK=0 LLG=66 TFZ==10.6 RFZ=2.9 TFZ=13.7 PAK=0
 LLG=203
 TFZ==14.0 LLG=1440 TFZ==34.2
SOLU SPAC P 62 2 2
SOLU 6DIM ENSE ensemble1 EULER 181.8 55.7 74.8 FRAC 0.27 0.26 -0.40
 BFAC -7.38
SOLU 6DIM ENSE ensemble1 EULER 4.5 120.2 7.9 FRAC -0.31 0.20 -0.09 BFAC
 12.61
Ensemble ensemble1 RMS variance(s): 0.87

 Thank you for your help!



Re: [ccp4bb] Low Phaser RFZ

2015-05-19 Thread Randy Read
Dear Eric,

I've just clarified the section in our documentation on how to tell if Phaser 
has solved your structure:
http://www.phaser.cimr.cam.ac.uk/index.php/Molecular_Replacement#Has_Phaser_Solved_It.3F

Briefly, the RFZ score is not that diagnostic of success or failure, 
particularly for high-symmetry space groups.  For your space group, P6(2)22, 
the rotation function is evaluating the agreement between the observed data and 
the structure factors that you might get by adding up the contributions of 12 
symmetry-related molecules.  Because, at the rotation function stage, the 
relative phase angles of the contributions from symmetry-related molecules is 
not known, there's a lot of uncertainty so the signal-to-noise is low.  That's 
why we emphasise the TFZ as the thing to look at.  In your case, a TFZ of 8.4 
for the first molecule is already pretty convincing, but even if the first 
molecule had a poor signal on its own, the TFZ of 13.7 for the second copy 
would tell you that the first one must have been right.

I would say that you can be confident that this is basically right.  (With the 
normal provisos: that doesn't rule out possible complications like 
pseudosymmetry, but as Phil Evans says the space group is a hypothesis, and you 
always have to be prepared to reconsider the hypothesis later if, say, it turns 
out to be difficult to refine the structure.)

Best wishes,

Randy Read

 On 19 May 2015, at 01:36, Eric Karg 
 052044071b36-dmarc-requ...@jiscmail.ac.uk wrote:
 
 Hi all,
 
 Running Phaser using the apo protein as search model on a ~2.5 A dataset of a 
 protein-DNA complex, I get a single solution but with low RFZ. The map looks 
 reasonable but I was wondering why the RFZ is so low. Would this solution be 
 acceptable?
 
   SOLU SET  RFZ=3.2 TFZ=8.4 PAK=0 LLG=66 TFZ==10.6 RFZ=2.9 TFZ=13.7 PAK=0 
 LLG=203
TFZ==14.0 LLG=1440 TFZ==34.2
   SOLU SPAC P 62 2 2
   SOLU 6DIM ENSE ensemble1 EULER 181.8 55.7 74.8 FRAC 0.27 0.26 -0.40 BFAC 
 -7.38
   SOLU 6DIM ENSE ensemble1 EULER 4.5 120.2 7.9 FRAC -0.31 0.20 -0.09 BFAC 
 12.61
   Ensemble ensemble1 RMS variance(s): 0.87
 
 Thank you for your help!

--
Randy J. Read
Department of Haematology, University of Cambridge
Cambridge Institute for Medical Research  Tel: + 44 1223 336500
Wellcome Trust/MRC Building   Fax: + 44 1223 336827
Hills RoadE-mail: rj...@cam.ac.uk
Cambridge CB2 0XY, U.K.   www-structmed.cimr.cam.ac.uk